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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Mar 2005 : 22:41:44
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And you know, at the rate of one room a week, it's going to take over a year just to cover Level One.
Give them a chance. I'm sure they will generic out the whole level in time.
You're likely correct. I read the article while I was at work, and I didn't see anything that made it feel particularly Realms-ish... I wish they'd stop with the half-hearted efforts and offer us something (other than Ed's Realmslore) that truly feels like it was intended for the Realms. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2005 : 00:48:20
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Room 2 is up: Down on Their Luck.
A couple of orcs, interesting carvings that are really spells, a spell from "Shining South" (Arcane Sensitivity) and tips on how to scale the room for more dangerous encounters. Still quite generic.
But now upon checking the thread, I see SB beat me to it.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 24 Mar 2005 00:52:42 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2005 : 02:18:07
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Room 2 is up: Down on Their Luck.
A couple of orcs, interesting carvings that are really spells, a spell from "Shining South" (Arcane Sensitivity) and tips on how to scale the room for more dangerous encounters. Still quite generic.
But now upon checking the thread, I see SB beat me to it.
-- George Krashos
And the fact that they plugged Shining South with a blatant commercial further underscores the generic-ness of the article.  |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 Mar 2005 02:18:40 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2005 : 04:20:12
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Yes, I was a little annoyed by that as well. It was almost as if WotC were trying to add extra justification for the overall FR-ness of the article itself.
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Edited by - The Sage on 24 Mar 2005 04:21:13 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2005 : 04:33:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And the fact that they plugged Shining South with a blatant commercial further underscores the generic-ness of the article.
Yeah, real smooth product plug there. Not that I blame them for such an action, but when it's THAT obvious that the tiny Realms reference in the article is just to get a product mentioned... |
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BobROE
Learned Scribe
Canada
106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2005 : 06:23:38
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| You can't expect every single room to be chock full of realmslore, wait until they've gone through at least 4 before you start complaining bitterly. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2005 : 06:38:43
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quote:
Originally posted by BobROE
You can't expect every single room to be chock full of realmslore, wait until they've gone through at least 4 before you start complaining bitterly.
First off I'll complain whenever I feel like it just as you're free to make any comments that you wish towards what is posted.
Second, are you aware of WOTC's current track record when it comes to online Realms material?
Third, no one is asking it to be full of realmslore. But, that room has nothing save for a plug for the Shining South book that shows it is designed for the Realms.
Fourth, do I have your permission to complain bitterly at four rooms? Why four? Why not three? Or Five? |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2005 : 06:57:24
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| I think you might be over doing it at room 2, its a bit hard to fill a room of Orcs with realms Lore. Personally I'd add the following to the room in background "Due to Halasters new relationship with Mystra (See Elminster in Hell). Halaster has begun sharing spells (in affect doing what Elminster was doing in the Temptation of Elminster)in various places in Undermoutain ie the Spells in room 2 are spells Halasters has developed" |
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Emperor Sigismund
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2005 : 07:31:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
I think you might be over doing it at room 2, its a bit hard to fill a room of Orcs with realms Lore.
I keep missing the part where I said fill it up with Realms lore.
quote:
Personally I'd add the following to the room in background "Due to Halasters new relationship with Mystra (See Elminster in Hell). Halaster has begun sharing spells (in affect doing what Elminster was doing in the Temptation of Elminster)in various places in Undermoutain ie the Spells in room 2 are spells Halasters has developed"
Wow, and that took you all of, what a few minutes. But, a writer for a company's web site is incapable of doing that. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2005 : 11:27:30
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I'm not looking for it to be full of Realmslore, either, but so far, there's been next to nothing that makes it feel like it's in the Realms.
SB is right -- that one simple line Dargoth mentioned would have made it more Realms-ish. One sentence... But instead, they make a plug for a Realms product. I think it's safe to say that if they put a Realms title on a piece, it would be nice if it felt like it was written for the Realms. |
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Mareka
Learned Scribe
Canada
125 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2005 : 21:51:52
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What would have been nice for room 2: a little information about the ecology of these undermountain orcs, maybe a bit about the tribes present on the level. Their relationship with other creatures and so on. The article seemed 'rushed' to me. The kind of thing a DM comes up with when the PCs head into an unfamiliar area.
The first articles were good, though. Hopefully the whole project won't just turn into a lesser quality Book of Challenges.
As far as advertising--isn't that the purpose of the website? |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2005 : 22:34:31
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Here's the original text from RoU, for comparison:quote:
D: This room is connected by tiny ventshafts to certain shop-cellars in the city above. When first entered by the PCs, the room contains a rack, on which hangs a suit of bright silvery chain mail and a scabbarded long sword. Both glow with a strong blue-white aura.
Sitting on the floor in front of the rack are three armored orcs, playing at dice. Each has a cold, cooked whole rabbit on a skewer, for a snack, and the three share a jug of bad “black” beer.
The orcs scramble up, with grunts and oaths, to defend themselves. They wear rusty, dirty, roughly-patched armor, and each has a battle axe and a black-bladed scimitar.
Orc (3): Int Average; AL LE; AC 6 (10); MV 9 (12); HD 1; hp 8 each; THAC0 19; #AT 1; Dmg 1-8 (battle axe, scimitar); SZ M; ML 11; XP 15 each.
The chain mail on the rack is finely-made, but the magic on it only prevents rust, scrapes and dents and any dirtying from blood, dirt or the like from ever occurring. This magic, though not greatly useful for adventurerers other than fastidious priests of Sune, makes it glow constantly, equal in brightness to a light spell. It has no other magical properties. A dispel magic quells its glow for only 2-5 rounds.
The blade is a cursed sword -2; once touched, it always teleports into the wearer’s hand, and cannot be made to stop glowing. A wish or limited wish will leave it behind, as will severing the hand!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2005 : 23:38:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Here's the original text from RoU, for comparison:quote:
D: This room is connected by tiny ventshafts to certain shop-cellars in the city above. When first entered by the PCs, the room contains a rack, on which hangs a suit of bright silvery chain mail and a scabbarded long sword. Both glow with a strong blue-white aura.
Sitting on the floor in front of the rack are three armored orcs, playing at dice. Each has a cold, cooked whole rabbit on a skewer, for a snack, and the three share a jug of bad “black” beer.
The orcs scramble up, with grunts and oaths, to defend themselves. They wear rusty, dirty, roughly-patched armor, and each has a battle axe and a black-bladed scimitar.
Orc (3): Int Average; AL LE; AC 6 (10); MV 9 (12); HD 1; hp 8 each; THAC0 19; #AT 1; Dmg 1-8 (battle axe, scimitar); SZ M; ML 11; XP 15 each.
The chain mail on the rack is finely-made, but the magic on it only prevents rust, scrapes and dents and any dirtying from blood, dirt or the like from ever occurring. This magic, though not greatly useful for adventurerers other than fastidious priests of Sune, makes it glow constantly, equal in brightness to a light spell. It has no other magical properties. A dispel magic quells its glow for only 2-5 rounds.
The blade is a cursed sword -2; once touched, it always teleports into the wearer’s hand, and cannot be made to stop glowing. A wish or limited wish will leave it behind, as will severing the hand!
So, this so-called Return to Undermountain is just a repackaged, generic version of the boxed set? That's cheap, even by WotC web article standards...  |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2005 : 01:39:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So, this so-called Return to Undermountain is just a repackaged, generic version of the boxed set? That's cheap, even by WotC web article standards...
Oh come on now WR, sure you're not over doing it? |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2005 : 12:01:47
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I've never had the opportunity to run the original adventures, and I never participated in the Sage's early campaigns when he ran them either. So I'm looking at these articles with a fresh perspective.
Still, I appreciate the opportunity to have them here so that I may one day run a 3e campaign if the mood strikes me.
As for the amount of Realmslore . . . Well, that is why we have DMs isn't? It is their duty to make the adventures interesting and tailor them to a specific campaign setting.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
Edited by - Lady Kazandra on 25 Mar 2005 12:04:46 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2005 : 16:09:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
As for the amount of Realmslore . . . Well, that is why we have DMs isn't? It is their duty to make the adventures interesting and tailor them to a specific campaign setting.
So, if I visited other sections of WOTC's site and looked at their updates for other campaign worlds, I'd find the same generic type of material that each DM must "tailor" to "a specific campaign setting," right? |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2005 : 16:28:18
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Not necessarily.
Eberron seems to be WotC primary focus at the moment. So, there is likely to be significant support for that setting for several more years . . . at least until the new edition of D&D gains more ground.
What I was getting at, was that regardless of the actual setting-specific content in a WotC article or lack thereof, an imaginative DM who has campaigned extensively in a specific setting isn't going to have much of a problem finding a way to turn a generic article into something that radiates with lore from that particular setting.
When we get right down to the core of the matter though . . . GH is really the only setting that receives the MOST attention whenever something new is posted on WotC. Because all the articles refer to the core D&D world, which is Greyhawk. So when each of the sub areas for specific settings are updated, they're updated with material that still holds some measure of use for people who campaign in the core D&D setting.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2005 : 17:00:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
Not necessarily.
Eberron seems to be WotC primary focus at the moment. So, there is likely to be significant support for that setting for several more years . . . at least until the new edition of D&D gains more ground.
So, I take it the Eberron updates contain a bit more lore than these recent Realms offerings?
Interesting.
quote:
What I was getting at, was that regardless of the actual setting-specific content in a WotC article or lack thereof, an imaginative DM who has campaigned extensively in a specific setting isn't going to have much of a problem finding a way to turn a generic article into something that radiates with lore from that particular setting.
Strange that an imaginative DM can do this yet a web author seems to lack the very same imagination.
quote:
When we get right down to the core of the matter though . . . GH is really the only setting that receives the MOST attention whenever something new is posted on WotC. Because all the articles refer to the core D&D world, which is Greyhawk. So when each of the sub areas for specific settings are updated, they're updated with material that still holds some measure of use for people who campaign in the core D&D setting.
I'd disagree with that. If anything, the push towards generic Realms articles indicates something Richard Baker mentioned quite some time ago. FR material will contain a great deal of generic (for lack of a better term) material because market research indicated that a good number of consumers were buying FR tomes solely for use in their own campaign worlds. Not Greyhawk, Eberron, Dragonlance, or Faerun, but their own home worlds. To me, that's why a good number of web articles have and will continue to be very generic. And that's also why the lore filled tomes found in 2E are things Faerun fans will never see again. |
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Mareka
Learned Scribe
Canada
125 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2005 : 19:53:09
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
So, I take it the Eberron updates contain a bit more lore than these recent Realms offerings?
The Eberron site has: a series of articles written as a newspaper for Sharn (not generic); Dragonshards articles which are Eberron's version of Forgotten Realms' Realmslore articles (not generic), and an article series that is basically an 'Eberron's frequently asked questions.' The retired series that gave adventure ideas was also quite setting specific. Almost all of these articles refer to places, organizations and history quite frequently, and not just as a "the encounter might work here" type of reference. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2005 : 20:17:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Mareka
The Eberron site has: a series of articles written as a newspaper for Sharn (not generic); Dragonshards articles which are Eberron's version of Forgotten Realms' Realmslore articles (not generic), and an article series that is basically an 'Eberron's frequently asked questions.' The retired series that gave adventure ideas was also quite setting specific. Almost all of these articles refer to places, organizations and history quite frequently, and not just as a "the encounter might work here" type of reference.
Thanks for the information. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2005 : 22:45:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
What I was getting at, was that regardless of the actual setting-specific content in a WotC article or lack thereof, an imaginative DM who has campaigned extensively in a specific setting isn't going to have much of a problem finding a way to turn a generic article into something that radiates with lore from that particular setting.
For me, the rub is in this paragraph.
These articles are supposedly set in the Realms -- not a generic setting, a specific one. And yet they are lacking the lore they should, by rights, contain.
The Adventure Locales are generic articles that are shoved into the Realms with a single blurb or two. They put the FR title on the article series, why isn't the FR stuff in the series?
As for this Undermountain series... Undermountain is a specific area within the Realms. The original descriptions did contain Realmslore -- maybe not every room, but enough that we knew exactly what setting we were in.
As Faraer's quote shows, they are taking something that did contain Realmslore, stripping it out to make it generic, dropping an advertisement in there, and then calling it a Realms article.
It's kinda like me going out to where my battered old car is sitting in the parking lot, and sticking Jaguar emblems on it. It may be labeled a Jag, but it's not.
That's our beef with these articles. We are getting generic stuff, and being told its setting-specific. It isn't.
Sure, an imaginative DM can fill in details and spin Realmslore all day long. But why should he or she have to do that to make a supposedly Realms-specific article fit into the setting? I don't go to a restaurant to cook my own food, I go there to eat the food that I've paid to have prepared for me. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2005 : 02:13:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's kinda like me going out to where my battered old car is sitting in the parking lot, and sticking Jaguar emblems on it. It may be labeled a Jag, but it's not.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2005 : 15:53:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Sure, an imaginative DM can fill in details and spin Realmslore all day long. But why should he or she have to do that to make a supposedly Realms-specific article fit into the setting? I don't go to a restaurant to cook my own food, I go there to eat the food that I've paid to have prepared for me.
I'll second that.
I'm all for DMs taking the time to make a generic adventure connect more with a specific setting, but sometimes time restraints and/or creative ideas aren't always in surplus. Having readily prepared options is a staple of the RPG industry. It always has been... And it should always be...
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Edited by - The Sage on 26 Mar 2005 15:54:13 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2005 : 16:38:23
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm all for DMs taking the time to make a generic adventure connect more with a specific setting, but sometimes time restraints and/or creative ideas aren't always in surplus. Having readily prepared options is a staple of the RPG industry. It always has been... And it should always be...
And what better place for ready made adventures for easy use by DMs than the actual FR site? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2005 : 16:40:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Sure, an imaginative DM can fill in details and spin Realmslore all day long. But why should he or she have to do that to make a supposedly Realms-specific article fit into the setting? I don't go to a restaurant to cook my own food, I go there to eat the food that I've paid to have prepared for me.
I'll second that.
I'm all for DMs taking the time to make a generic adventure connect more with a specific setting, but sometimes time restraints and/or creative ideas aren't always in surplus. Having readily prepared options is a staple of the RPG industry. It always has been... And it should always be...
Indeed! Part of what first drew me to the Realms was the fact that it was an established world -- I didn't have to build it myself. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2005 : 17:44:17
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| If I was running something in Undermountain, I'd stick to the original material. The fact that this is 3E would make it easier, but as we've seen, the original material is a lot better than the new stuff. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2005 : 18:17:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If I was running something in Undermountain, I'd stick to the original material. The fact that this is 3E would make it easier, but as we've seen, the original material is a lot better than the new stuff.
Echoes that. :) |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2005 : 18:44:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Has anyone here decided that they may run these 3e adventure encounters set in Undermountain?
I was contemplating asking this very question last night, but decided to let the subject rest for awhile.
As for my answer on your question, I agree with WR and Kuje. Additionally, I have a feeling I'll get much better ideas for how I may want an Undermountain campaign to run from some upcoming resources regarding the city above it. |
Edited by - SiriusBlack on 27 Mar 2005 18:44:32 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2005 : 03:15:15
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Don't forget Eric's trilogy of adventures in DUNGEON. Although not set in Undermountain, as I understand it, he always links and interconnects things so well that the place and the people in it are bound to get a mention somewhere.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Return to Undermountain
