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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Sep 2021 : 03:20:28
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Sleyvas, I considered your first point but I wasn't sure about it. I was thinking that between the two of them (Diirinka and Diinkarazan), they COULD have even created the deepspawn or were the ones that brought deepspawn to Faerun from the Far Realm. Otherwise, I suppose they could have MODIFIED the deepspawn to produce intelligent creatures (if they couldn't do that before). That would certainly fall in line with what a god of magic and a god of invention could have done working together.
Now, that begs the question: Can you have true intelligence without a soul/spirit? I would say no and that the a deepspawn-created intelligent being isn't a true member of that race (otherwise, a god could grab a few deepspawn and create an unlimited supply of new worshippers and increase their power that way). I believe that it is much like the results of the simulacrum spell in that it is physically a copy but it lacks a spirit or soul so it couldn't be resurrected, reincarnated, or raised dead. It was that soulless pseudo-dwarf that Moradin saw as an abomination and that the twins, as the ultimate creators of them, needed to be punished for that transgression. It could also be that all the other gods would feel it was a transgression for the same reason and, as much as Moradin loved them as his children, he couldn't have them go unpunished because all the other gods would be screaming for their heads. Of course, Moradin couldn't have forseen that Diinkarazan would end up being tortured by Ilsensine and I am sure there has been a few "discussions" about it between Moradin and Berronar. It could even be that the reason Diinkarazan has been gaining more power in the Relams is that, while Berronar doesn't have the power needed to free her son, she could be supporting his connection to the world to help him regain his sanity.
That part about stealing souls is VERY interesting. If a deepspawn-created intelligent being DID have a soul, I see that as a great way to handle it. However, I haven't seen any indication in any writings that there was a crusade to wipe out deepspawn because if they were stealing souls, I would think the gods would get mad about that and there would be a crusade or five to wipe them out. Permanently.
The rest of it, I haven't seen anything about a deepspawn not being able to make a normal looking dwarf. If Moradin cursed them, then they would all only be able to make "garbage" copies of dwarves. I am more thinking that the derro were the results of mind flayer experiments (much like the Netherese creation of spriggans from gnomes; maybe the Netherese got the idea from the mind flayers creating the derro) and that there were at least some population of derro by the end of the Spawn Wars. It would seem likely that the twins were looking for derro to rescue from mind flayers when they stumbled upon Ilsensine's magic cache.
When I say Moradin cursed the deepspawn, I do mean specifically the ones that were involved. We may find that there are some "special" deepspawn out there in the realms still that have been cursed.... OR they were turned into the original derro and thus began spawning a new "degenerate" race of dwarves (as we often hear derro called that) that were pulled souls from Moradin's forge. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2021 : 10:28:14
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Here's what I've pulled together FWIW.
Grandiose fantasies and rampant fanaticism …
It's worth quite a lot! Great stuff, Tom! |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2021 : 13:20:17
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This story keeps coming back to me and I wanted to throw out some general ideas
On the idea that Diirinka and Diinkarazan are twins born of Moradin, what if they were "born" not as GODS, but the classic "demigod" (as in greek myth... a mortal born of a god and a mortal mother.... like the Seven Sisters). What if they are twins because Diirinka is a spawn?
What if Diinkarazan modified a deepspawn with the ability to create more powerful beings (as we see them originally presented in Dwarves' Deep).... but it may take longer to create a more powerful form..... say 50 years (how often does Diinkarazan "spawn" a new avatar to go roaming the prime?). So, down in Oryndoll, maybe there's a "special" deepspawn still, and to this day it periodically produces a "new" Diinkarazan.
What if Diinkarazan was a powerful wizard, but also one of the first cerebremancers, learning both psionics and arcane magics? What if he were also madder than Karsus? Might he try something like growing a clone of himself all while allowing his CURRENT body to be eaten by his "modified" deepspawn?
What if he actually was able to perform psychic surgery on his spawn self and free it from the control of the deepspawn? Or perhaps he controlled his "brother" by controlling the deepspawn? I mean, if anyone might, an extremely powerful, divinely endowed being, with exceptional knowledge of the mind might be able to.
So, these two "brothers" take up rulership of some cities in Shanatar, and perhaps they use simulacra of themselves to appear all over the place to help the common dwarves. They then bring in common deepspawn under their control, and as punishment for crimes, they hurl dwarven malcontents to the deepspawn. The deepspawn then produce "model citizens" to serve the general public and die defending its borders. Some folks begin to revere these two beings and naming them as more useful than Moradin.
Meanwhile, Diirinka is spawning beings with souls and having those who revere him sacrifice them on his altars. He's also experimenting on spawn to create a new race of beings in the
form of derro, using knowledge stolen from Ilsensine. Moradin begins to take notice of this situation. He orders his son to travel to Oryndoll and destroy the blasphemous deepspawn that he had created. When they get to Oryndoll, Diinkarazan finds out that he actually doesn't have control of the deepspawn like he thought, and he's betrayed by his brother to Ilsensine, who takes the body of Diinkarazan and places it in the Abyss or Far Realm or "the place where vestiges go"
Some other ideas to go along with this.... possible spins...
When Diinkarazan tries to "beat the cloning rules" by allowing himself to be eaten by a modified deepspawn and creates Diirinka, he possibly IMMEDIATELY kills the deepspawn and destroys the body, giving Diirinka his freedom from the spawn. Ilsensine however, being a hoarder of secret knowledge, eventually finds out about this. Ilsensine secretly reincarnates this deepspawn's body and begins producing more copies of Diinkarazan, which it then has its illithids in Oryndoll experiment with Ceremorphosis upon... creating the derro race with souls drawn from the Far Realm.
When Diinkarazan introduces the concept of the Deepspawn to the dwarves of Shanatar, perhaps he does it using the bodies of the fallen or severely wounded. After producing hundreds of copies of the dwarf, perhaps he was destroying the deepspawn to give the dwarfspawn their freedom. He was meanwhile constantly growing clones of deepspawn, so that he could repeat this process of making new dwarves and then killing the deepspawn to give them their freedom.
Diirinka may not have been killing the deepspawn, but rather taking control of the deepspawn, and thus his "dwarfspawn" were under his control.
The knowledge stolen from Ilsensine may have involved ceremorphosis. Another idea might be that what Diirinka stole was the reincarnated deepspawn that had created it, and he then set about creating new copies of himself, and these were sent out across the multiverse, and eventually he became a deity.
To Note: the original spawn of deepspawn lacked all class abilities of the original. So, Diirinka, when created would have lacked the class levels of Diinkarazan, and he may have "leveled" differently. This may have also have generated a constant feeling that he was the lesser of the two (a smugness in Diinkarazan as "the original"). In all this, I'm picturing Diinkarazan as a powerful spellcaster who focuses on cloning, simulacrums, and other similar magics. He may have even have sent a simulacrum of himself off to protect his younger "brother" as he leveled up. Deepspawn just become another type of narcissistic recreation of himself, and then a further means to gather adoration from common dwarves without the expense of creating clones/simulacrums. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 10 Sep 2021 15:05:16 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2021 : 14:23:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Both names have a common beginning Dii.
It would be interesting to see if inka and karazan actually mean something in dwarven as that could imply Dii was part of the original name.
Diika could be the original dwarf who was spawned into Diirinka and Diinkarazan.
wouldn't it be rinka and n'karazan? That is an interesting idea though. Personally, I'd go with one being the original and the spawn betraed the original (so, original being Diinkarazan)... Maybe he went by the nickname Dii (Dee) and rinka might mean something like false, second, heir, child, brother, etc... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2021 : 16:08:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Here's what I've pulled together FWIW.
Grandiose fantasies and rampant fanaticism …
It's worth quite a lot! Great stuff, Tom!
Thanks Steven. |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2021 : 16:11:15
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On Derro names, and largely based on the Dragon article:
Derro societies have no common naming conventions. It is not unusual for a derro's name to be derived from dwarven, drow, and svirfneblin names or even made up of entirely new sounds. Derro borrow names or name fragments from other dwarves most often, drow occasionally, and other races only rarely. Many derro names also borrow some name fragment from individuals in their mythology, such as the gods Diirinka and Diinkarazan. A derro name might have no true meaning other than that claimed by the owner. However, one generalization can be made about the majority of derro names. They tend to be fairly long, as all derro wish to sound impressive or important, though many will drop one or more syllables to create a shorter nickname.
To generate a name, choose two to four of the following name fragments or syllables and combine them in any order. All derro names can apply to any gender.
Common Name Fragments: A, Adj, Aer, Agr, Alk, Alz, An, Ar, Ari, Ark, Arn, Auk, Az, B, Bael, Bar, Bhir, Buk, Bup, Bur, Byr, D, Dak, Dek, Deku, Diin, Diir, Dro, Du, Duer, Dur, Duz, Dwar, Er, Eur, Fadu, Faka, Far, Fell, Ff, Furk, Gar, Gat, Gath, Gert, Glen, Gor, Guer, Inka, Jarl, Jer, Jeru, Juar, Ka, Kar, Kara, Kern, Khill, Ki, Kras, Krasu, Ladu, Liink, Lond, M, Mar, Miirn, Moru, Nar, Naru, Onic, Onu, Oruk, Pido, Pliin, Pvel, Rac, Rak, Racu, Rigu, Riiq, Risk, Ruar, Sec, Sur, Sura, Stur, Suer, Tenu, Th, Thar, Tharu, Then,Ther, Thu, Thuar, Thuer, Udu, Ur, Urin,Urt, Usk, Valu, Vari, Vaur, Ven, Vil, Vili, Vriild, Xeer, Zan, Zub
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2021 : 22:06:45
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Tom, based on what you posted, I am thinking that there were two, separate creation events for the derro. The first of which was that the mind flayers were picking off dwarven patrols here and there soon after the founding of Deep Shanatar. They did some experimentation so there were actually a few duergar and derro long before the accepted creation dates for those races. Dwarves are a long lived race so it took a while to see how changes manifested from generation to generation so it could easily take a long time (mind flayers are thorough). By the time they captured Clan Duergar, they had an idea of what they were doing and just needed a large group of dwarves to proceed. That led to the creation of a large group of duergar and derro. Eventually, both groups escaped from the mind flayers.
The second and parallel creation event was Diirinka. He experimented, which also took a while, and ended up creating his derro. Now, it turned out that both groups of derro were almost the same in appearance. Diirinka's were taller, on average, and closer to the height of a standard dwarf. They were also a bit paler than a regular dwarf and every individual was a savant. The mind flayer derro were faster and more dexterous and had the pale, blue-tinted skin. However, none of the mind flayer derro had any magic ability.
When the mind flayer derro escaped, Diirinka saw them and wanted to add their speed and dexterity to his derro. So, he guided them to where he had his group in the depths and they crossbred into the derro as they are today. That covers both the origin of Diirinka creating them and the duergar saying the derro were made from them. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2021 : 16:51:29
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Hey, Wooley, we have drifted a bit from this thread's stated purpose as questions for Eric. Could you move everything after Eric's response on 7 Sept to a new thread? Maybe name it "Derro Here, Derro There, Derro Everywhere!"  |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2021 : 17:46:32
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Hey, Wooley, we have drifted a bit from this thread's stated purpose as questions for Eric. Could you move everything after Eric's response on 7 Sept to a new thread? Maybe name it "Derro Here, Derro There, Derro Everywhere!"
I don't have an option for moving individual posts. All I could do is what anyone else could do -- start a new topic and do a lot of copy/pasting. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2021 : 18:13:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Hey, Wooley, we have drifted a bit from this thread's stated purpose as questions for Eric. Could you move everything after Eric's response on 7 Sept to a new thread? Maybe name it "Derro Here, Derro There, Derro Everywhere!"
I don't have an option for moving individual posts. All I could do is what anyone else could do -- start a new topic and do a lot of copy/pasting.
If we get the copy/pasting done, you can remove those individual posts from here to clean it up, right? |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2021 : 18:43:36
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
If we get the copy/pasting done, you can remove those individual posts from here to clean it up, right?
Technically, yes. I can delete individual posts or entire topics.
But I'm not going to, in this case, unless the posters specifically ask.
Posters have the ability to delete their own posts. I'm not going to remove posts, myself, unless they violate the rules or if someone can't figure out how to delete their own stuff and asks me to. I do sometimes have to do some book-keeping type of removals, but it's only duplicate posts within a single discussion or duplicate topics by the same person.
It's easier just to start the new topic and link back to it, here, saying something like "this discussion has been moved over here, please take relevant comments there." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2021 : 23:21:22
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| Eric, I hate to keep bugging you but I have another question: When you and Ed were working on the Powers of Faerun book, did he ever give any indication of a noble class in Iriaebor (I asked since it was used as an example)? He has other writings where he COULD have called them nobles/lords but instead he just used "well-to-do merchants". I recently stumbled upon something that mentioned the "Lords of Iriaebor" and would like to keep my stuff as close to canon as I can. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2021 : 05:11:22
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Eric, I hate to keep bugging you but I have another question: When you and Ed were working on the Powers of Faerun book, did he ever give any indication of a noble class in Iriaebor (I asked since it was used as an example)? He has other writings where he COULD have called them nobles/lords but instead he just used "well-to-do merchants". I recently stumbled upon something that mentioned the "Lords of Iriaebor" and would like to keep my stuff as close to canon as I can.
I couldn't remember, so I asked the old sage himself. Here's what he had to say:
"The ruler of Iriaebor (Bron during the time of much Realms coverage) was styled "Lord," and was advised by a council of forty-strong merchants. While some of these merchants paid minstrels to sing ballads referring to "the Lords of Iriaebor" that clearly meant the ruling lord and the council, just as they paid some of their factors (trade agents) and household servants to call them "lord," the Heralds of the Realms firmly reserved the phrase "Lords of Iriaebor" to the mean the succession of ruling Lords, NOT the advisory council of merchants.
Iriaebor was so riven by constant intrigues and strivings for power, aided at times by the Zhentarim and later (once they had an enclave) the Red Wizards of Thay, that none of these merchants could rise in influence over the others, though some of them became very wealthy. Those who wanted titles typically went to the Border Kingdoms, bought (or hired mercenaries to seize) small holdings in the easternmost Borders, along the southern edge, where settlement was most sparse, and then promptly styled themselves "Lord of" whatever they fancied calling the farm or rolling wilderlands or patch of forest they'd occupied.
And if someone sufficiently wealthy to toss money around in handfuls shows up in Athkatla or Waterdeep and rents rooms at an upscale inn as "Lord of Spanglemar" or whatever, those taking their coin will humour them in their pretences, but that does NOT mean anyone in Iraiebor not in their pay will do so, nor the Heralds.
So the "Lords of Iriaebor" remain bardic stylings/poetic license or if you're a herald, the line of actual city rulers, but the rich, established families of Iriaebor were never formally ennobled, or truly gained the trappings of nobility (special treatment under law, a local social strata of treatment different to less wealthy yet still successful and established citizens, and so on).
Some of the wealthiest and longest-established families almost certainly considered themselves "the true rulers of the city," but they neither made laws alone nor controlled any military beyond their personal hired bodyguards, and lacked individual influence enough to 'rule' in any sense, or even veto (the council advised; it did not direct). These "oldcoin" Iriaebans included the Danthyn, Elranthor, Jalant, Morevur, Sylantor, and Tlarthyn families."
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Hope that helps.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2021 : 15:02:48
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| Thank you very much, good sir. While I had devised a way to incorporate the "Lords of Iriaebor", it was going to cause an extensive re-write of various sections. Now, I just need a sentence or two to address that. The family names are a huge plus. I laughed when I read them since he used "Iriaeban" as a descriptor and that would have been a HUGE insult/derision to them if Ed was from Iriaebor (El would very likely know that and his feelings about them came through when he spoke to Ed). |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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EricMinde
Seeker
Canada
97 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2021 : 18:47:42
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| I've tracked a bit of information through the net and I think it's the brainchild of Eric L. Boyd. However, there isn't alot of info on the subject itself so I would like to know more about the Circle of Rust and the Worm. More specifically, where is the Horn of Doom right now. |
"When you understand the impossible, it changes to improbable and that means there's a chance!"
~Baroth Quagmire, built an orphanage, grew a castle in his friends home, the home did not survive the birth. Died three times and fought his way out of hell. Only player I've ever seen roll three 1% in a row. |
Edited by - EricMinde on 05 Nov 2021 19:50:32 |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
523 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2021 : 03:24:44
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Eric do you by any chance remember how the "gp resource limit" for each "guild" was arrived at in the 3.5E City of Splendors: Waterdeep book?
On the surface it looks like it maps somehow to page 137 of the 3.5 DMG, where the "gp limit" dependis on town size. At first glance seemed the size/reach of the guild would dictate it, Minor = Small City: 15k, Standard = Large City: 40k, Expansive = Metropolis: 100k. I'm guessing it was used as a starting point and the designers then stepped it up or down as they saw fit?
Follow up question, the Web Enhancement lists "gp resource limit" for all the noble houses. Those have various values ranging from 15k-62k/ I'm guessing the DMG table did not have the granularity that was needed?
Last question, was it intended if someone were to take the "gp resource limit" for each noble house and the number of nobles and run it through the formula from the 3.5 DMG one can get the available cash a house could scrounge together?
Formula: (.5 x gp limit) x (.1 x population) = available gp
Hopefully these rules centered question aren't too boring I'm trying wrap my mind around just how much money nobles can throw around thought maybe the work was already done. Thanks.
Edit: More delving I noticed something odd, House Adarbrent and Wands appear in the main book and Web Enhancement with different "gp resource limits" and/or membership. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
Edited by - Gelcur on 07 Nov 2021 04:05:07 |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2021 : 19:46:55
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quote:
Originally posted by EricMinde
I've tracked a bit of information through the net and I think it's the brainchild of Eric L. Boyd. However, there isn't alot of info on the subject itself so I would like to know more about the Circle of Rust and the Worm. More specifically, where is the Horn of Doom right now.
I'm blanking on the "Horn of Doom" reference.
The Circle of Rust and the Worm is detailed briefly in Faiths & Avatars, page 157.
I also make use of them in Under Illefarn Anew.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2021 : 14:14:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
Eric do you by any chance remember how the "gp resource limit" for each "guild" was arrived at in the 3.5E City of Splendors: Waterdeep book?
On the surface it looks like it maps somehow to page 137 of the 3.5 DMG, where the "gp limit" dependis on town size. At first glance seemed the size/reach of the guild would dictate it, Minor = Small City: 15k, Standard = Large City: 40k, Expansive = Metropolis: 100k. I'm guessing it was used as a starting point and the designers then stepped it up or down as they saw fit?
Follow up question, the Web Enhancement lists "gp resource limit" for all the noble houses. Those have various values ranging from 15k-62k/ I'm guessing the DMG table did not have the granularity that was needed?
Last question, was it intended if someone were to take the "gp resource limit" for each noble house and the number of nobles and run it through the formula from the 3.5 DMG one can get the available cash a house could scrounge together?
Formula: (.5 x gp limit) x (.1 x population) = available gp
Hopefully these rules centered question aren't too boring I'm trying wrap my mind around just how much money nobles can throw around thought maybe the work was already done. Thanks.
Edit: More delving I noticed something odd, House Adarbrent and Wands appear in the main book and Web Enhancement with different "gp resource limits" and/or membership.
I have to keep re-figuring it out, because it's not written down anywhere, but the formula, as you surmised, is as follows:
Assets = (GP Limit / 10) * (Population / 2)
I don't exactly remember how I came up with that formula. Someone might have told me or I might have re-engineered it.
As for the difference between the book and the web enhancement, I suspect an editor changed it it one location and didn't realize it was duplicated. (Each product had a different editor, IIRC.)
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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lurenz7
Acolyte
Italy
1 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2021 : 10:16:14
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Hi! While reading Tiamat (Tchazzar) in "Powers and Pantheons" I noticed that in the alignment of the worshippers it says "LN, N, CN, LE, NE, CE (also LG, NG, and CG prior to the Godswar) ".
I am very curious about these good followers of Tiamat prior to the Godswars. What was different about Tiamat before and after?
How did she attract good followers?
The Dark Lady was summoned in 1346 DR (before Godswars) and started granting spells to her priests again. Could there have been good priests at this time before the Godswars?
Thanks in advance Eric, I really appreciate your works! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2021 : 10:08:45
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I think i can answer this one in a not exactly canon way, having spent a lot of time puzzling and musing over unther.
If you look at the core (not FR) writeups of Tiamat and Bahamut it specifies them both as Archetypes. Its not exactly consistent or explicit over what an archetype is but it seems to be that there is an exemplar of good or evil dragon kind, one known as the Platinum Dragon and the other known as the Dragon Queen.
The primal archetype dwells on the outer planes (in celestia and baator) and is awesomely powerful.
On the material plane the archetypes appear able to create Aspects. An Aspect is a mortal being that sacrifices itself to become an aspect of this archetype. In so doing they transform appearance and personality to become more like the archetype but are not the archetype itself, they are a merging of the individual and the archetype's energy, but they are free willed, with their own personality. Moreover they are physical beings (gods reside on the outer planes and send only avatars to the material plane) and behave like quasi deities (see OGB) in that they are immortal, super powerful, and can grant spells etc, but are material plane bound and can be killed.
On Faerun there have been multiple aspects of the Platinum Dragon and the Dragon Queen. Xymor, Bahamut, Bahmat are all names that might have been aspects of the Platinum Dragon. Tiamat and Nagamat are names that might have been the Dragon Queen.
It may even be possible for multiple aspects of the same archetype to exist at the same time.
So -30000 DR ish Nagamat is an aspect of the dragon queen, she may have created chromatic dragons (from the species eo-draco which was smaller than true dragons and not linked to the weave - it didnt have innate spellcasting ability or spell like abilities). Nagamat dies but this has no effect on the independent archetype of the Dragon Queen.
-2500 DR an aspect called Tiamat arrives in Toril (although why the mulan would have brought a monster with them on their travels i dont know, it seems more likely this Tiamat was an aspect created after the arrival of the godkings due to their dragon purges etc).
This aspect was destroyed around -1076 DR during the Orcgate Wars, but manages to return. Either she was killed and another aspect was created or she used the process we later see during the time of troubles.
Tiamat is next seen in 1046 DR and is slain during the time of troubles fighting Gilgeam. She then returns and fights Gilgeam again during the Time of Troubles and supposedly later fights Gilgeam on the outer planes and slays him.
Using the Archetype and aspect model from core it is clear that the Tiamat from -2500 DR to the Time of Troubles is different from the Tiamat we see after the Time of Troubles. The alignment is a big clue.
Tiamat before ToT allowed good, neutral, and evil worshippers, indicating that she is Neutral herself and this is consistent with bits of text we have about her. Tiamat after ToT only allows Neutral and Evil which indicates she is evil.
Also there are titles about Tiamat that are contradictory to her currently. One such title is the Queen of Chaos, which does not make sense given Tiamat now's LE alignment.
What i'm getting down to is that we have different Tiamat aspects in existence at or around the same time, they are independent in mind and body and personality, one has a CN alignment, the other has a LE alignment. One has 3 heads, the other has 5 heads.
The CN, 3 headed, untheric variant was slain (although she may have a means to return) fighting Gilgeam.
The LE 5 headed variant is what exists now and is a much closer approximation to the archetype we see in Baator.
Regardless, no matter how many times you kill Tiamat or Bahamut, a new one will always arise while there are true dragons in existence (although it may not be immediately).
Not exactly the canon answer, maybe Eric has a better one. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2021 : 00:23:01
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quote:
Originally posted by lurenz7
Hi! While reading Tiamat (Tchazzar) in "Powers and Pantheons" I noticed that in the alignment of the worshippers it says "LN, N, CN, LE, NE, CE (also LG, NG, and CG prior to the Godswar) ".
I am very curious about these good followers of Tiamat prior to the Godswars. What was different about Tiamat before and after?
How did she attract good followers?
The Dark Lady was summoned in 1346 DR (before Godswars) and started granting spells to her priests again. Could there have been good priests at this time before the Godswars?
Thanks in advance Eric, I really appreciate your works!
In the post-1346 era, Gilgeam had turned to evil. Tiamat was the traditional foe of Gilgeam. So, some good-aligned folks turned to Tiamat to help them rebel against the tyranny of Gilgeam.
This lore in P&P was intended to be compatible with what a prior designer had written in FR10 - Old Empires. |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
523 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2021 : 04:37:13
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| I hadn't realized you detailed the Dungeon of the Crypt and the Fireplace level in Dungeon 127 and 128. Looking forward to doing a deep dive some time, at a cursory glance it looks very well done. I especially like how well thought out the placement and alignment with the city above is. Was the three dimensional planning difficult? |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2021 : 11:22:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
I hadn't realized you detailed the Dungeon of the Crypt and the Fireplace level in Dungeon 127 and 128. Looking forward to doing a deep dive some time, at a cursory glance it looks very well done. I especially like how well thought out the placement and alignment with the city above is. Was the three dimensional planning difficult?
I started with a long email from Ed laying out the basics of both dungeons. (I somehow lost that email, unfortunately.) From there, I tried to plot out where both dungeons would be. I then went through the location of known connections to Undermountain in North Ward. I also looked at the location of the various noble family compounds.
It took a while, but eventually I found the basic hooks to place the dungeon, including the compound of the specific family in Dungeon #128 and the tavern detailed in Dungeon #126. |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2021 : 10:19:27
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Salutations.
Quick question regarding how the Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings was represented in the Jergal LOTEOE write-up, trying not to bump into NDA here. I found a snippet in an old scroll citing Cloak & Dagger which says the Scepter was broken into Five parts and that DMs should consider scattering it across the planes. As is expressed in the scroll, the designers were aware of how they were "rod of seven parts'ing themselves". Exploding the Scepter into five parts seems like an arbitrary choice of picking a number that isn't seven, and scattering an item to the planes was a common trope.
Twenty years (or 27, if the Book of Artifacts had all this information already) pass and we get the full release of the Jergal write-up, which changes the number to seven. In fact, seven is the most frequently appearing number in the Jergal write-up at 29 times. Additionally, you suggest that even when broken, if I understand correctly, the Rod can never leave the material plane under normal cosmic circumstances.
Do you have anything not under NDA to say about these two changes? The item being bound to the material plane is such a key part of the modern story and a 180 from Cloak & Dagger's recommendation, even when the artifact's anti-divine nature was present there.
Thanks!
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Edited by - PattPlays on 23 Dec 2021 10:49:35 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2021 : 14:08:51
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| In regards to the "number" thing PattPlays just brought up.... I would say that in FR there is definitely a "theme" to using the number 7 with a LOT of things, especially those related to magic. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2021 : 15:40:53
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
In regards to the "number" thing PattPlays just brought up.... I would say that in FR there is definitely a "theme" to using the number 7 with a LOT of things, especially those related to magic.
Ed uses it a lot, too, but I think it's just a reflection of the larger tendency to regard 7 as a lucky number. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2021 : 17:54:19
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quote:
Originally posted by PattPlays
I found a snippet in an old scroll citing Cloak & Dagger which says the Scepter was broken into Five parts and that DMs should consider scattering it across the planes.
I think if you re-download the file, you'll see that it's always said five parts, not seven.
Also, we've always been at war with Kara-Tur. :-)
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Questions for Eric L Boyd
