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AJA
Senior Scribe
USA
771 Posts |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2286 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Nov 2020 : 23:05:16
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Eric,
I would love to know more about the Exodus of the Leirans in 173DR, from Halruaa. Specifically, I have the following questions, and I thank you in advance for any feedback you provide me! Also, I have no illusion (get it... illusions... Leira? Kind of tricky there. It's my natural improv abilities shining through there.) that all of my questions will be answered, but I certainly wouldn't be unhappy at the thought of it. :)
Question 1
The Exodus entry begins with the entry of, quote:
This excerpt is from the minutes of the Council of Elders, when that august body convened in the Year of Screaming Sharn to select a new Netyarch. (GHotR, p65)
My question with that excerpt, to clarify is: does that political process play out absent the viewership of the populace of Halruaa? It appears so when I read from FR16: The Shining South that, quote:
When the wizard-king dies, or steps down, his successor is chosen from among the ranks of the Elders. The Elders pick the most powerful of their number to lead. A complicated system involving level of power, ranking of specialization, and opinions expressed by the Elders, is used to determine the new leader. The last three leaders have all been divination specialists. It is thought that these are the most powerful of the wizards. Knowledge is power, great knowledge is great power. (FR16: The Shining South, p4-5)
Question 2
Are you aware of any more information about "Delbuestur Garamond"? He is identified as a Servant of the Mists, and since a person has to be at least 16th level to be on the council, I am assuming he was a Council member. Also, for the fact that Servant Garamond of the Mist was speaking on behalf of Leirans, I am assuming he was a senior Council member. Would that be correct?
Question 3
Though it is stated clearly in the quote that Servant Garamond of the Mist rises quote:
...today to note my opposition to the election of yet another Netyarch in the grip of the Church of Mystra. (GHotR, p65)
, what was going on that led to such strong and direct opposition to the selection of the Netyarch in that specific election? It is clear that quote:
...the stranglehold that worshipers of Mystra and Azuth have gained over the Council Elders...(GHotR, p66)
was a symptom of the problems. They clearly must have been pushing for certain policy prescriptions, or something else, beyond merely being outnumbered.
Question 4
The next line says, quote:
Cries from the Crowd: For shame! For shame! (GHotR, p65)
Is that only the Council of Elder's, or would that have been observing citizens as well?
Question 5, 6, 7, & 8
Servant Garamond of the Mist goes on to say, quote:
Although the Lady of Mysteries governs the Weave, she sees fit to let other gods oversee specific schools of magic. If Mystra can abide the existence of Azuth and Leira and Savras, why should the council single out their followers as second-class citizens who are unworthy of leadership positions within our realm? (GHotR, p65)
(5) Was there anything to demonstrate that the followers of Leira were in fact being treated as "second-class citizens", or was that hyperbola predicated upon the anger of a sense of disenfranchisement, as opposed to actual mistreatment?
(6) It is clear from an earlier quote that followers of Mystra and Azuth dominated the Council. There is a distinct lack of acknowledgement regarding followers of Savras. Is this an implicit acknowledgement of the approximate time of Savras' loss to Azuth in the Year of the Hangman's Noose (161DR), since it is known that, quote:
Some time in the first few centuries of the Dalereckoning calendar, Azuth came into conflict with a minor southern deity of divinations, Savras the All-Seeing. (Magic of Faerun, p6)
?
(7) Regarding Savras, if that is an implicit affirmation of the time by which Savras lost his battle with Azuth the Magister, is that the reason Savras had such a lack of representation on the Council since quote:
Savras's worship dwindled after his imprisonment (Magic of Faerun, p6)
, or were there enough followers still active a mere (12) years later that it was a situation indicative of second-class treatment for them as well?
(8) Assuming that Savras and Azuth battled in or approximate to 161DR, then how would it be that Azuth had his apotheosis as a deity (or becoming a deity) in 147DR, yet be clearly a mortal when he fights Savras?
Question 9
Towards the end of the Exodus "conversation", it is written that, quote:
Cry from the Crowd: Liar! You Leirans seek only to sow confusion. I doubt there’s more than one ship, and that one is more likely fleeing than heading toward some mythical land!
Why is Servant Garamond of the Mist being called, and seemingly his compatriots of Leira, a liar?
I know that may seem like an odd question, because Leira is listed as the deity of liars in the multiple religious texts. However, it is pretty clear that in 173DR, her followers were active civic participants, and extremely out in the open political leaders in at that time I argue one of the most powerful nations in the world. They were hardly hiding or seemingly being deceptive.
I ultimately ask all of the questions I have as I play Leira as a deity of freedom in my Realms. Not a good or evil freedom deity, but one of absolute freedom. So much so, that her expression of complete self-determination runs afoul of the other deities who try to control their worshipers actions through dogma. Her teaching appear to be pretty straight forward: you do you without concern for "right", "wrong" or whatever.
I appreciate any and all input on this. Leira is one of my most favorite deities and I really think she is overlooked too often as an amazing deity in the Realms.
Best regards,
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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AJA
Senior Scribe
USA
771 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2021 : 02:19:33
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(sort-of cross-posting from the Mages&Sages thread)
Eric, would it be possible to get a spell-check on these names (from the July 30th "North Ward" stream)?
Bormir(?) Ruldegost
Bormir(?) II Ruldegost
Ragnor(?) Gost (Ruldegost)
(Geldirth and the others I was able to reference from Vampires of Waterdeep)
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AJA
YAFRP
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Edited by - AJA on 11 Aug 2021 02:20:39 |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
757 Posts |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2021 : 21:02:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrene
Hi Eric,
What are the proper adjectives for Samarach and Thindol?
It depends on the context, but I discussed "deep-digging Thindolese miners" in Serpent Kingdoms, page 117. I also used it as a noun, as in "In time, the western Thindolese began calling theri isolated land Samarach ..." on page 118.
I used "Samarachan" as a noun in SK, page 116. I used it as an adjective on page 117.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2021 : 15:00:05
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quote:
Originally posted by AJA
(sort-of cross-posting from the Mages&Sages thread)
Eric, would it be possible to get a spell-check on these names (from the July 30th "North Ward" stream)?
Bormir(?) Ruldegost
Bormir(?) II Ruldegost
Ragnor(?) Gost (Ruldegost)
(Geldirth and the others I was able to reference from Vampires of Waterdeep)
Rognor and Bormor.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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AJA
Senior Scribe
USA
771 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2021 : 00:29:32
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Rognor and Bormor.
-- George Krashos
Cheers, George.
It's a good thing Eric's descriptions are so wondrously colorful, 'cause his pronunciations are awful.  
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AJA
YAFRP
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2021 : 01:58:32
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quote:
Originally posted by AJA
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Rognor and Bormor.
-- George Krashos
Cheers, George.
It's a good thing Eric's descriptions are so wondrously colorful, 'cause his pronunciations are awful.
Not untrue. |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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kysus
Learned Scribe
USA
112 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 01:01:53
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| dear Eric i had some questions about your stuff with eaerlann. so i was wondering if eaerlann had a standard or coat of arms that represented them back during the height of their kingdom or actually how that all works for elven kingdoms if a kingdom uses a unified standard or used the standard of the ruling house. I was also curious if you had any thoughts on some of the noble families that might have been in power at the time of eaerlann's fall. I have a few more questions on eaerlann but i decided to wait as i didnt want to bombard you with dozens of questions all at once. my main reason for digging up as much lore as i can get on eaerlann is ive recently got pulled back into a forgotten realms game where our group has decided to rebuild myth glaurach and ive read up on as much stuff as i could find but i still have alot of unanswered questions regarding that city and the kingdom as a whole and any information that you could give would be much appreciated as i always look forward to reading up on yours and george krashos's work. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 10:49:56
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quote:
Originally posted by kysus
dear Eric i had some questions about your stuff with eaerlann. so i was wondering if eaerlann had a standard or coat of arms that represented them back during the height of their kingdom or actually how that all works for elven kingdoms if a kingdom uses a unified standard or used the standard of the ruling house. I was also curious if you had any thoughts on some of the noble families that might have been in power at the time of eaerlann's fall. I have a few more questions on eaerlann but i decided to wait as i didnt want to bombard you with dozens of questions all at once. my main reason for digging up as much lore as i can get on eaerlann is ive recently got pulled back into a forgotten realms game where our group has decided to rebuild myth glaurach and ive read up on as much stuff as i could find but i still have alot of unanswered questions regarding that city and the kingdom as a whole and any information that you could give would be much appreciated as i always look forward to reading up on yours and george krashos's work.
I'm sure your research has found this already, but just in case it hasn't... Mintiper's Chapbook Part 5: Myth Glaurach |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 12:15:15
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Eaerlann had moon, gold, and wood elf noble houses. Mostly moon elven. Some of those noble houses were present in multiple realms (e.g. Evermeet, Evereska, and/or Eaerlann) and some were unique to Eaerlann.
Each house does have a symbol, but it doesn't follow real world heraldry.
George and I have worked out the surviving noble houses of Eaerlann and where they retreated to after the Year of the Curse (882 DR). Members of those houses are only just starting to trickle back into the High Forest. We've written up a dozen or so noble houses and their prominent nobles, but we're not done with the whole Crown of Eaerlann campaign yet.
Being honest, it's going to be a while, as I'm currently writing / playing a different campaign just a little bit to the west.
quote:
Originally posted by kysus
dear Eric i had some questions about your stuff with eaerlann. so i was wondering if eaerlann had a standard or coat of arms that represented them back during the height of their kingdom or actually how that all works for elven kingdoms if a kingdom uses a unified standard or used the standard of the ruling house. I was also curious if you had any thoughts on some of the noble families that might have been in power at the time of eaerlann's fall. I have a few more questions on eaerlann but i decided to wait as i didnt want to bombard you with dozens of questions all at once. my main reason for digging up as much lore as i can get on eaerlann is ive recently got pulled back into a forgotten realms game where our group has decided to rebuild myth glaurach and ive read up on as much stuff as i could find but i still have alot of unanswered questions regarding that city and the kingdom as a whole and any information that you could give would be much appreciated as i always look forward to reading up on yours and george krashos's work.
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2021 : 21:26:14
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| Eric is there any change we get the write up of the Waterdeep lore that was cut from the vampire trilogy Dungeon series that was discussed in the podcast? Or better yet, a transcript of all the Waterdeep lore? |
- Ryan |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2021 : 21:32:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Rymac
Eric is there any change we get the write up of the Waterdeep lore that was cut from the vampire trilogy Dungeon series that was discussed in the podcast? Or better yet, a transcript of all the Waterdeep lore?
It's just little bits here and there.
I did grab some of it to include in an adventure I'm working on. So eventually I can release those bits that way.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 02:23:05
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I happened to find the article you wrote about the Men of the Basilisk as an "expansion" on what you had in Cloak & Dagger. Were there any other articles you wrote that addressed other individuals or organizations in that particular work?
Also, and this is directed at anyone, is there list somewhere that lists all the articles Eric wrote for the various magazines? I have done searches with several variations of that wording that hasn't turned up anything. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 03:48:19
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
I happened to find the article you wrote about the Men of the Basilisk as an "expansion" on what you had in Cloak & Dagger. Were there any other articles you wrote that addressed other individuals or organizations in that particular work?
Also, and this is directed at anyone, is there list somewhere that lists all the articles Eric wrote for the various magazines? I have done searches with several variations of that wording that hasn't turned up anything.
Dragon #267 - The City of Sunken Spires
Dragon #351 - Volo’s Guide - Lost Regalia of the North
Dragon #351 - World Serpent Inn
Dragon #354 - Volo’s Guide - Cormanthor: War Among the Trees
Dragon #355 - Volo’s Guide - Demon Cults of the Realms
Dragon #357 - Gazing Into the Abyss
Dragon #359 - Volo’s Guide - Myth Drannor, City of Song
Dungeon #69 - Sleep of Ages
Dungeon #73 - Eye of Myrkul
Dungeon #126 - Blood of Malar
Dungeon #127 - Dungeon of the Crypt
Dungeon #128 - The Fireplace Level
Dungeon #148 - Wells of Darkness
Polyhedron #60 - Two Heads Are Better Than One
Polyhedron #103 - Forgotten Deities: Amaunator
Polyhedron #104 - Forgotten Deities: Karsus
Polyhedron #105 - Forgotten Deities: Garagos
Polyhedron #106 - Forgotten Deities: Ibrandul
Polyhedron #107 - Forgotten Deities: Moander
Polyhedron #108 - Forgotten Deities: Sebek
Polyhedron #109 - Forgotten Deities: Sharess
Polyhedron #110 - Forgotten Deities: Deep Duerra
Polyhedron #111 - Forgotten Deities: Grond Peaksmasher
Polyhedron #112 - Forgotten Deities: Selvetarm
Polyhedron #113 - Forgotten Deities: Shiallia
Polyhedron #114 - Forgotten Deities: Seth/Varae
Polyhedron #115 - Forgotten Deities: The Lion and the Unicorn
Polyhedron #116 - Forgotten Deities: Malyk
Polyhedron #117 - Forgotten Deities: Bright Nydra
Polyhedron #118 - Forgotten Deities: Dendar and Kezef
Polyhedron #119 - Forgotten Deities: Finder
Polyhedron #120 - Forgotten Deities: Jergal
Polyhedron #121 - Forgotten Deities: Gargauth
Polyhedron #125 - Tulrun of the Tent (Part1)
Polyhedron #126 - Tulrun of the Tent (Part 2)
Polyhedron #140 - Llurth Dreier
Polyhedron #142 - Men of the Basilisk
Plus a few rubbish Greyhawk articles that no one is interested in.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 05 Sep 2021 05:34:48 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 04:04:01
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| Thank you, sir. After I posted the question, the thought occurred to me that you very likely had that in your files somewhere. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 14:21:56
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Oh indeed. Eric is my inspiration. I’m his biggest fan.
— George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 01:45:55
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Oh indeed. Eric is my inspiration. I’m his biggest fan.
— George Krashos
Cue Steven King. ;-) |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
Edited by - ericlboyd on 06 Sep 2021 01:46:06 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 04:06:22
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| This is an odd question but was there a general word count limit for the various products (articles, single book supplements, boxed sets) or were they set for each project? I am starting to realize that if I don't set one for myself, I will never get anything out the door. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2021 : 12:49:56
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
This is an odd question but was there a general word count limit for the various products (articles, single book supplements, boxed sets) or were they set for each project? I am starting to realize that if I don't set one for myself, I will never get anything out the door.
There was always a page limit, which implied a word count.
And yes, there's a reason my current projects for my own enjoyment stretch on forever. ;-)
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2021 : 16:03:51
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I hate to keep bugging ya, but I have another question that, based on the FR Wiki entry, is in your wheelhouse:
Since you wrote about the Mindstalker Wars in Deep Shanatar, is it your understanding that is probably about the time that Diinkarazan was imprisoned by Ilsensine? It would seem logical since the twins had very likely been banished by Moradin at the end of the Spawn Wars (since that is when dwarves stopped worshipping them) and they may have been desperate enough 1,000 years later to try to get some power from the god of the Illithids who they thought may be distracted by the Mindstalker Wars. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2021 : 17:28:28
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
I hate to keep bugging ya, but I have another question that, based on the FR Wiki entry, is in your wheelhouse:
Since you wrote about the Mindstalker Wars in Deep Shanatar, is it your understanding that is probably about the time that Diinkarazan was imprisoned by Ilsensine? It would seem logical since the twins had very likely been banished by Moradin at the end of the Spawn Wars (since that is when dwarves stopped worshipping them) and they may have been desperate enough 1,000 years later to try to get some power from the god of the Illithids who they thought may be distracted by the Mindstalker Wars.
I'd say he was probably imprisoned around the end of the Spawn Wars. See the write-up of Korolnor in DDGttU.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2021 : 18:26:53
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
I hate to keep bugging ya, but I have another question that, based on the FR Wiki entry, is in your wheelhouse:
Since you wrote about the Mindstalker Wars in Deep Shanatar, is it your understanding that is probably about the time that Diinkarazan was imprisoned by Ilsensine? It would seem logical since the twins had very likely been banished by Moradin at the end of the Spawn Wars (since that is when dwarves stopped worshipping them) and they may have been desperate enough 1,000 years later to try to get some power from the god of the Illithids who they thought may be distracted by the Mindstalker Wars.
I'd say he was probably imprisoned around the end of the Spawn Wars. See the write-up of Korolnor in DDGttU.
--Eric
Yeah, I had read that and it isn't too clear. Korolnor was a dwarven realm that worshipped Diinkarazan until the end of the Spawn Wars. If he was a dwarven god until then, when did he gain the worship of the derro if he was imprisoned? That is why I was thinking he was imprisoned later so that he had time to become worshipped by the derro. Then, his brother betrayed him, he was locked up, and his brother "stole" his worshippers.
Also, if it was his dwarven followers that created the Wailing Dwarf and those bridges, that would imply that his portfolio as a dwarven god involved some kind of artistry, stonemasonry, stone carving, or the like. Those would not typically be associated with revenge since "I am going to get back at those guys by building a bridge" doesn't quite work.
If these points are valid, then that really turns Diinkarazan into a sympathetic figure. You had a god that was very likely the "good twin" who was punished by his father because of something his brother did and then was betrayed by that very same brother and lost pretty much everything. Of course he went mad and was consumed by revenge.
Edit: I compared what was in DDGttU to what was in Demihuman Dieties and I think I have found the framework of what happened.
Diirinka was the CE dwarven god of magic, knowledge, and cruelty. Diinkarazan was the CN dwarven god of invention and discovery (they are older than Dugmaren, who was the dwarven god of scholarship).
Diirinka convinced Diinkarazan to join him in using the deepspawn (in what came to be known as the Spawn Wars). The deepspawn-generated dwarves (page 17 of GHotR) were an affront to Moradin so that was what caused him to banish both Diirinka and Diinkarazan from the Morndinsamman. The portfolios of invention and discovery were given to Dugmaren because Diirinka was able to shift most of the blame onto Diinkarazan which is why he kept his portfolios. That shifted Diinkarazan into vengeance (towards Moradin since Diirinka was able to keep his duplicity secret). With them no longer hearing the prayers of the dwarves, they could now hear the derro so they started building worship with them. However, it wasn't long after their banishment at the end of the Spawn Wars that they found Ilsensine's cache and Diinkarazan was betrayed and imprisoned. It was after his imprisonment that the Wailing Dwarf and other artistry of Korolnor was created (under another dwarven god). It was also after Korolnor had fallen when the Throne of the Mad God was "empowered" by Diinkarazan (probably by his avatar during one of his lucid moments).
Is that somewhere in the ballpark of what you were thinking when you wrote DDGttU, Demihuman Deities, and GHotR? |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Edited by - TheIriaeban on 09 Sep 2021 18:10:42 |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2021 : 21:31:39
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| That's more or less where I ended up FWIW. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2021 : 21:59:16
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TheIriaeban ---- I will say, nicely done. I like that story. I would add a slight addition, and it goes back to something we all were discussing a month or two back. Do Deepspawn create souls? Since it seems everyone wants that to be true (and I threw out some nasty repercussions). Maybe the reason why Moradin got so EXTREMELY mad was that Diinkarazan imbued deepspawn with the ability to create souls, and maybe prior to the Spawn Wars.... deespspawn could only create "simulacra" like creations that were maybe even impermanent. Since Moradin is "The Soul Forger" who creates dwarven souls, this could be seen as an attempt to displace him.
As an additional option, Possibly even they were STEALING souls from Moradin's forge, and it was this that slowed down dwarven reproduction. Thus, the death of deepspawn MIGHT cause an increase in the dwarven birth rate. Moradin might have also cursed those deepspawn and the dwarves that they started releasing may have started to become "imperfect" or "ill-formed" souls..... the cast off dregs from Moradin's forge... or he set the "soul siphon" for those deepspawn from his forge to the Far Realm... and these became the first derro (and thus they weren't an experiment by the illithids, but everyone thinks they are and the illithids don't correct them). Maybe even Moradin helped END the spawn wars by changing the deepspawn INTO the first derro, which were captured by the illithids, and it was Diirinka and Diinkarazan who rescued them from Ilsensine.
There's probably some other twist you could put on it, as to where and how the souls started to be "gotten", and I'd gladly hear other options. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2021 : 22:31:05
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
TheIriaeban ---- I will say, nicely done. I like that story. I would add a slight addition, and it goes back to something we all were discussing a month or two back. Do Deepspawn create souls? Since it seems everyone wants that to be true (and I threw out some nasty repercussions). Maybe the reason why Moradin got so EXTREMELY mad was that Diinkarazan imbued deepspawn with the ability to create souls, and maybe prior to the Spawn Wars.... deespspawn could only create "simulacra" like creations that were maybe even impermanent. Since Moradin is "The Soul Forger" who creates dwarven souls, this could be seen as an attempt to displace him.
As an additional option, Possibly even they were STEALING souls from Moradin's forge, and it was this that slowed down dwarven reproduction. Thus, the death of deepspawn MIGHT cause an increase in the dwarven birth rate. Moradin might have also cursed those deepspawn and the dwarves that they started releasing may have started to become "imperfect" or "ill-formed" souls..... the cast off dregs from Moradin's forge... or he set the "soul siphon" for those deepspawn from his forge to the Far Realm... and these became the first derro (and thus they weren't an experiment by the illithids, but everyone thinks they are and the illithids don't correct them). Maybe even Moradin helped END the spawn wars by changing the deepspawn INTO the first derro, which were captured by the illithids, and it was Diirinka and Diinkarazan who rescued them from Ilsensine.
There's probably some other twist you could put on it, as to where and how the souls started to be "gotten", and I'd gladly hear other options.
There are some really good ideas here.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2021 : 00:40:15
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Sleyvas, I considered your first point but I wasn't sure about it. I was thinking that between the two of them (Diirinka and Diinkarazan), they COULD have even created the deepspawn or were the ones that brought deepspawn to Faerun from the Far Realm. Otherwise, I suppose they could have MODIFIED the deepspawn to produce intelligent creatures (if they couldn't do that before). That would certainly fall in line with what a god of magic and a god of invention could have done working together.
Now, that begs the question: Can you have true intelligence without a soul/spirit? I would say no and that the a deepspawn-created intelligent being isn't a true member of that race (otherwise, a god could grab a few deepspawn and create an unlimited supply of new worshippers and increase their power that way). I believe that it is much like the results of the simulacrum spell in that it is physically a copy but it lacks a spirit or soul so it couldn't be resurrected, reincarnated, or raised dead. It was that soulless pseudo-dwarf that Moradin saw as an abomination and that the twins, as the ultimate creators of them, needed to be punished for that transgression. It could also be that all the other gods would feel it was a transgression for the same reason and, as much as Moradin loved them as his children, he couldn't have them go unpunished because all the other gods would be screaming for their heads. Of course, Moradin couldn't have forseen that Diinkarazan would end up being tortured by Ilsensine and I am sure there has been a few "discussions" about it between Moradin and Berronar. It could even be that the reason Diinkarazan has been gaining more power in the Relams is that, while Berronar doesn't have the power needed to free her son, she could be supporting his connection to the world to help him regain his sanity.
That part about stealing souls is VERY interesting. If a deepspawn-created intelligent being DID have a soul, I see that as a great way to handle it. However, I haven't seen any indication in any writings that there was a crusade to wipe out deepspawn because if they were stealing souls, I would think the gods would get mad about that and there would be a crusade or five to wipe them out. Permanently.
The rest of it, I haven't seen anything about a deepspawn not being able to make a normal looking dwarf. If Moradin cursed them, then they would all only be able to make "garbage" copies of dwarves. I am more thinking that the derro were the results of mind flayer experiments (much like the Netherese creation of spriggans from gnomes; maybe the Netherese got the idea from the mind flayers creating the derro) and that there were at least some population of derro by the end of the Spawn Wars. It would seem likely that the twins were looking for derro to rescue from mind flayers when they stumbled upon Ilsensine's magic cache. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Edited by - TheIriaeban on 10 Sep 2021 02:56:18 |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2021 : 03:13:12
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Here's what I've pulled together FWIW.
Grandiose fantasies and rampant fanaticism have obscured the true origin of the derro, even among themselves. Most dwarves (and humans) don't recognize derro as kin, but the legends that the derro tell about their race and the story that the duergar believe share grains of truth.
Some derro savants tell the story of two brothers, Diirinka, a god of knoweldge and magic, and Diinkarazan, a god of artifice and single-minded focus. The brothers are said to be twin sons of Moradin and Berronar and among the first generation of dwarven gods. Like Laduguer, at one time, shield dwarves worshipped them as members of the Morndinsamman. The two were even patrons of two of Deep Shanatar's eight subkingdoms, the Silver Kingdom of Torglor (Diirinka) and the Jewel Kingdom of Korolnor (Diinkarazan).
When war broke out between the eight subkingdoms of Deep Shanatar in -9000 DR, the brothers, especially Diinkarazan, are believed to have convinced their followers to first make use of deepspawn to breed legions of dwarven clones. The Spawn Wars, as this conflict became known, was the first serious break in the brothers' relationship with their father, who saw their actions as an irredeemably evil of madness. The conflict also led most shield dwarves to abandon their worship.
Undeterred, the twins sought to create their own race of dwarves and recapture their dominions. They wanted their creation to be distinctive, typified by qualities most dwarves lack—speed, dexterity, and arcane prowess.
Drawn to deeper places than other dwarves, they delved into the deepest reaches of the Lowerdark and found a vast cavern glittering with the force of raw magic. (It is believed that they had found a gateway to the Far Realm, though the stories differ on whether their search was purposeful or happenstance.) They began to gather up strange, alien magic scattered about a crystal sphere floating just above the ground, and as they did so, a vast spectral brain floated up from the sphere and surveyed them coldly. Ilsensine, the god of illithds, did not take well to his secrets being stolen by a pair of dwarves. Clever Diirinka fleeing for his life, backstabbed his own brother and left him to the spectral horror. The furious illithid god cursed Diinkarazan most horribly and trapped him in the Far Realm (some say banished to the Abyss) where he still dwells, bound to a stone throne seeking naught but revenge. (The danger the brothers are said to face in this legend varies, depending on whatever foe the savants want to lead their people against, yet the essence of the story remains the same: a lesson of survival at any price and an example of how deceitfulness and cruelty can be virtues.)
Returning to his own realm, Diirinka hid himself from the other dwarven gods of the Morndinsamman and began meddling with the magic he had stolen from the Far Realm, a magic that began to change him (and drive him mad). After experimenting and disposing of failed experiments, he crafted the derro race.
As for Diinkarazan, once every 50 years or so, he experiences a day of lucidity. On this day, he transforms a derro into his avatar to stalk derro communities, destroy all he can, and warp what is left behind. At these times, his hunger for revenge is so great that his behavior often degenerates into a frenzy of slaying anything he comes across until his mortal host is slain. (In addition, the Throne of the Mad God, which once served as the ruling seat of Korolnor's monarchs, contains the last remnant of Diinkarazan's power in the Realms Below. By unknown means, Diinkarazan can manifest a shadow of his ancient power through the ancient throne and madly direct the trolls of Stommheim above, despite his imprisonment by Ilsensine.)
Corrupted by the Far Realm and having become something other than his children, the All Father exiled the brothers from the Mordinsamman. In some derro myths, the derro were driven away by dwarf gods jealous of Diirinka's prowess and creation, and in others Diirinka has hidden them in the Lowerdark so that the other dwarven gods will not rise up in jealousy against the derro. (While many sages point to Vord's Vow—the foreswearing of arcane magic by dwarves of the Northkingdom in -1421 DR following the defeat of dwarven necromancers of Thanardoom—as the reason for the dwarves' general lack of arcane might, some sages of the stout folk suggest this has more to do with Diirinka's exile centuries earlier.)
According to the duergar, the derro are descended from dwarves of a clan that was left behind when the others escaped the mind flayers' rule. They eventually also got away, but not before becoming demented and contorted.
In -8100 DR, the illithids of Oryndoll, deep beneath the Shining Plains, attacked the eastern subkingdoms of Shanatar, beginning a conflict that came to be known as the Mindstalker Wars among the dwarves and the War of Cloven Thoughts among the mind flayers. The illithids were driven back, but in their wake the surviving Stout Folk discovered that the caverns of Barakuir, which had been cut off in the early days of fighting, lay empty. The shield dwarves of Clan Duergar had been carried off to thralldom in the mind flayers’ realm.
After millennia of enslavement and countless illithid breeding experiments, the descendants of Clan Duergar were transformed into a new dwarven subrace, the grey dwarves. Some of their number were also bred with captive human thralls, spawning yet another subrace known as the derro. Around -4,000 DR, the duergar, as they were now known, began a series of rebellions against their illithid masters that eventually culminated in the nigh-complete liberation of their race. These newly liberated grey dwarves began carving out there own holdings in the Northdark, beneath the Orsraun Mountains, and in isolated caverns deep beneath the Great Glacier. Meanwhile, it took the derro millenia more to free themselves and spread among the Middledark and Lowerdark. (In 1363 DR, the mind flayers that then controlled Gauntlgrym further mutated some derro into true aberrations known as illithiderro or madminds.)
Some have suggested that Diirinka and Diinkarazan were not gods at all, but derro slaves of Oryndoll, and their story is not of gods, but mortals. Sometimes in this telling of the tale, the brothers become gods or join the Great Old Ones of the Far Realm through the magic they stole from the illithids. Others believe that Diirinka and Diinkarazan are naught but a corrupted thought planted in the minds of the mad derro by Ilsensine itself to mollify the derro by making them believe their own history is a reflection of that of their gods. Others say the derro are not native to Faerûn at all and come from a world outside Realmspace or descended from fey corrupted by the Far Realm and not dwarves at all.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2021 : 03:15:36
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
TheIriaeban ---- I will say, nicely done. I like that story. I would add a slight addition, and it goes back to something we all were discussing a month or two back. Do Deepspawn create souls? Since it seems everyone wants that to be true (and I threw out some nasty repercussions). Maybe the reason why Moradin got so EXTREMELY mad was that Diinkarazan imbued deepspawn with the ability to create souls, and maybe prior to the Spawn Wars.... deespspawn could only create "simulacra" like creations that were maybe even impermanent. Since Moradin is "The Soul Forger" who creates dwarven souls, this could be seen as an attempt to displace him.
As an additional option, Possibly even they were STEALING souls from Moradin's forge, and it was this that slowed down dwarven reproduction. Thus, the death of deepspawn MIGHT cause an increase in the dwarven birth rate. Moradin might have also cursed those deepspawn and the dwarves that they started releasing may have started to become "imperfect" or "ill-formed" souls..... the cast off dregs from Moradin's forge... or he set the "soul siphon" for those deepspawn from his forge to the Far Realm... and these became the first derro (and thus they weren't an experiment by the illithids, but everyone thinks they are and the illithids don't correct them). Maybe even Moradin helped END the spawn wars by changing the deepspawn INTO the first derro, which were captured by the illithids, and it was Diirinka and Diinkarazan who rescued them from Ilsensine.
There's probably some other twist you could put on it, as to where and how the souls started to be "gotten", and I'd gladly hear other options.
There are some really good ideas here.
--Eric
Thank you very much. There's several spins I see, but I'm not sure which I like best yet. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2021 : 03:18:27
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FWIW, key sources I've identified for derro include:
Out of the Abyss p224
Mord's Tome p 158-159
Out of the Abyss 6, 224
MM3 4E p 48
Complete Divine 221
Races of Stone
Underdark
F&P p 221
Defenders of the Faith 93
Dragon 281 for names
MM 3.5 p 49
Planes of Chaos 23
On Hallowed Ground 83
Wyrmskull Throne 58
DD 13, 18, 23, 26, 33, 36, 41-42, 78
DDGTU 20, 42, 85-86
Dragon 241
MM 2E p 96,
MM2 1E, p 42
Madminds: DDGtU p 42, Lost Empires 143, Neverwinter 13
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Questions for Eric L Boyd
