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the psychotic seaotter
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Dec 2004 : 00:41:46
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I just finished reading the Avatar trilogy and have started Prince of Lies. I was surprised to find that by this novel Cyric had already killed Leira I had assumed that this event was in the now Avatar Series.
So my question is since Leira's death was not on Prince of Lies what story was this in or was the event even in a novel at all?
Also I find it curious that at the end of Waterdeep AO calls Cyric the new god of Strife and Death but murder isn't mentioned. Was this just a typo or was there to be a new lord of murder eventually and it just defaulted to Cyric?
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Run run as fast as you can you can't catch me I'm the gingerbread man...
The Arcane Brotherhood, Wizards of the Sword Coast. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2004 : 01:29:20
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So far as I know, exactly how or when Leira was slain has never been revealed.
As for murder... Maybe Ao was lumping it under the other two?  |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2004 : 01:51:20
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Realms assumption...
Cyric is not Murder because Ao knows about Bhaal's plan to reincarnate himself via the Bhaal spawn. :)
Real world assumption...
Cyric is not Murder because the Murder domain was licensed out for the Baldur's Gate series and the story is left open for the PC to become a god or walk Faerun as a demi-god. :) |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2004 : 02:33:27
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Realms assumption...
Cyric is not Murder because Ao knows about Bhaal's plan to reincarnate himself via the Bhaal spawn. :)
Real world assumption...
Cyric is not Murder because the Murder domain was licensed out for the Baldur's Gate series and the story is left open for the PC to become a god or walk Faerun as a demi-god. :)
I could be mistaken, but I believe that the Avatar trilogy predates the Baldur's Gate games by at least a few years... |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2004 : 04:29:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I could be mistaken, but I believe that the Avatar trilogy predates the Baldur's Gate games by at least a few years...
Yes but I don't think the Bhaal spawn here Bioware's idea. I'm certain I read vague references to it in more then 1 AD&D supplement. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2004 : 05:16:15
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I could be mistaken, but I believe that the Avatar trilogy predates the Baldur's Gate games by at least a few years...
Yes but I don't think the Bhaal spawn here Bioware's idea. I'm certain I read vague references to it in more then 1 AD&D supplement.
Really? I'm not aware of any such references. Have you any page numbers or quotes to go along with this? (not trying to be argumentative; I wanna know if I've overlooked something  ) |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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the psychotic seaotter
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2004 : 07:49:40
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Ahh thanks for helping me with that but to add more confusion to the argumet Forgotten Realms Adventures lists Cyric as having the Murder portfolio. Which is why I find the omission of murder interesting.
Sure you could say it was a typo but from the intro to Prince of Lies it is suggested (at least to me) that the Avatar Project was done between a small group of people. So that makes me wonder if designer X decided Cyric would get Murder why didn't he tell Troy Denning, who was under the Richard Awlinson name, to inlcude that?
I know, mountains and molehills but something that just caught my eye.
On a side note I have warmed up to the whole avatar thing pretty well and have a new respect for Cyric and what I think was being done with him. |
Run run as fast as you can you can't catch me I'm the gingerbread man...
The Arcane Brotherhood, Wizards of the Sword Coast. |
Edited by - the psychotic seaotter on 31 Dec 2004 07:51:02 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2004 : 14:56:41
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quote:
Originally posted by the psychotic seaotter
Ahh thanks for helping me with that but to add more confusion to the argumet Forgotten Realms Adventures lists Cyric as having the Murder portfolio. Which is why I find the omission of murder interesting.
Sure you could say it was a typo but from the intro to Prince of Lies it is suggested (at least to me) that the Avatar Project was done between a small group of people. So that makes me wonder if designer X decided Cyric would get Murder why didn't he tell Troy Denning, who was under the Richard Awlinson name, to inlcude that?
I know, mountains and molehills but something that just caught my eye.
On a side note I have warmed up to the whole avatar thing pretty well and have a new respect for Cyric and what I think was being done with him.
Truly, I think that it was simply overlooked by the author.
I'm not a huge fan of the trilogy proper, but I love Prince of Lies and Crucible. |
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daryldens
Acolyte
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2004 : 16:12:35
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If I am remembering correctly, the Avatar trilogy came out about the time of the shift from 1st to 2nd edition of AD&D, and the lack of murder in the portfolio may have been because for awhile there were no assassin's when 2nd edition first came out. Not 100% sure, but that's my recollection.
Daryl |
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the psychotic seaotter
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2004 : 17:55:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Truly, I think that it was simply overlooked by the author.
I'm not a huge fan of the trilogy proper, but I love Prince of Lies and Crucible.
I think it was an oversight as well.
I've only gotten a few chapters into 'Prince of Lies' but I have loved every bit of it. |
Run run as fast as you can you can't catch me I'm the gingerbread man...
The Arcane Brotherhood, Wizards of the Sword Coast. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2004 : 18:10:53
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quote:
Originally posted by daryldens
If I am remembering correctly, the Avatar trilogy came out about the time of the shift from 1st to 2nd edition of AD&D, and the lack of murder in the portfolio may have been because for awhile there were no assassin's when 2nd edition first came out. Not 100% sure, but that's my recollection.
Daryl
You're partially right... The Avatar Crisis was a way for TSR to change the Realms to 2E, and to explain why everything changed (classes lost or changed, spells working differently, etc).
(As an aside, that's part of my problem with the shift to 3E: the changes were far more dramatic, but we've had either lame explanations (sorcerers have always been around, but no one knew about them!) or no explanation at all (NPCs whose classes and/or alignments were suddenly different, etc).  )
Anyway, even in the earliest days of 2E, Cyric still had the Murder portfolio -- I just opened up my Forgotten Realms Adventures hardcover and checked. If you're not familiar with that tome, that was the one that changed the Realms from 1E to 2E. The 2nd edition boxed set Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting was still a few years off. |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2004 : 18:35:38
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| You see I would have liked to read about the death of Leira by Cyric's hands.I wish it was part of the Avatar series.I also think that it was an oversight by the author. |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2004 : 19:17:24
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quote:
Originally posted by VEDSICA
You see I would have liked to read about the death of Leira by Cyric's hands.I wish it was part of the Avatar series.I also think that it was an oversight by the author.
I think that at best, it could have been a short story, but not a very satisfying one -- who wants to read about the bad guy winning? |
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Schala
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2004 : 20:06:58
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I loved the Avatar series. Prince of Lies is my favorite FR novel. And I think it did mention when and how he killed Leira, but I'm not sure. I know it wasn't in any book exactly, but I swear there was a part in Prince of Lies where it told you how and when Cyric and Mask killed Leira.
As for the murder portfolio, that probably went under death. Or maybe it was just floating around since Bhaal's death and Cyric eventually just adopted it as his, like he did with lies. Lies wasn't even a claimed portfolio until Cyric made it one. Speaking of which, in Crucible, Mask mentions wanting the portfolio of lies. I don't know what stopped him from having it before Cyric became a god. Maybe he just never thought of it? |
Devoted Follower of Cyric, the One and All.
~Death to all who oppose Cyric. Bow down before his supreme power, and yield to him the blood of those that do not believe in his supremacy. Fear and obey those in authority, but slay those that are weak, of good persuasion, or false prophets. Bring death to those that oppose Cyric's church or make peace, order, and laws, for only Cyric is the true authority.~ |
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Vexxan
Acolyte
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2005 : 11:52:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Schala
in Crucible, Mask mentions wanting the portfolio of lies. I don't know what stopped him from having it before Cyric became a god. Maybe he just never thought of it?
Mask simply wanted his portfolio of intrigue returned to him. It is insinuated that he covets lies as well, but I believe Mask's response was to the contrary. He didn't long for lies, but if that portfolio happened to fall in his lap, he would gladly fulfill its duties.
Mask is most assuredly untrustworthy, but does he fit the mould of a liar? I don't think the portfolio of lies would necessarily suit him and perhaps Mask feels the same. If he did gain it, he would be a much for nefarious deity. |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2005 : 05:51:03
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| Rather funny quote there Wooly.Why on Earth would I want to read about the bad guy winning?What am I thinking |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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the psychotic seaotter
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2005 : 02:13:15
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| You know just every now and then I would like to see a bad guy win in a story. Call it odd but it gets boring seeing the good guys win in the end... |
Run run as fast as you can you can't catch me I'm the gingerbread man...
The Arcane Brotherhood, Wizards of the Sword Coast. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2005 : 02:53:34
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| But psychotic seaotter, the bad guys ARE winning. In the long term, they are surely winning. Look at all the recent events in the Realms, with the phaerrim attacking Evereska, the orcs of King Obould overrunning the North, the daemonfey trying to exterminate the elves, Sammaster making a comeback with his cult to start Faerun's largest dragon rage etc. Surely we all know that the good will triumph, but at what cost? While the armies of light band together to defeat a common foe, they get weaker while other dangerous organizations like the Zhentarim or the Red Wizards keep getting bigger and stronger with more expansion everyday... |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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the psychotic seaotter
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2005 : 02:59:08
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True..and no more on the Hunters Blades Trilogy I havent read The Two Swordsyet .
I was speaking in more general areas than FR and yes I may not have liked some of the changes I do like the way things are generally going... |
Run run as fast as you can you can't catch me I'm the gingerbread man...
The Arcane Brotherhood, Wizards of the Sword Coast. |
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2005 : 03:05:56
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| Somewhere, and I'm not sure where (but you are probably right, Schala!) it said that Cyric lured Leira to Pandemonium and whacked her there away from the eyes of other deities, then just subsumed her portfolio and started granting spells. |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
Edited by - Melfius on 05 Jan 2005 03:06:35 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2005 : 03:46:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Melfius
Somewhere, and I'm not sure where (but you are probably right, Schala!) it said that Cyric lured Leira to Pandemonium and whacked her there away from the eyes of other deities, then just subsumed her portfolio and started granting spells.
Faiths and Avatars, page 93. It details her death and Cyric granting the spells. |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2005 : 17:22:23
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| SB is correct, and I would love to read a novel about that. |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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the psychotic seaotter
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2005 : 17:34:58
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Well I'm about halfway through 'Prince of Lies' now and about jumped out of my skin when I learned where Kelemvor was being hidden and by who.
I definately agree that this was one of the better Avatar books out there. In fact it has taken my attention away from 'Dissolution' and 'Homeland'.
Oh yeah and I only recently got into the novels... |
Run run as fast as you can you can't catch me I'm the gingerbread man...
The Arcane Brotherhood, Wizards of the Sword Coast. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2005 : 00:35:47
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quote:
Originally posted by the psychotic seaotter
Well I'm about halfway through 'Prince of Lies' now and about jumped out of my skin when I learned where Kelemvor was being hidden and by who.
I definately agree that this was one of the better Avatar books out there. In fact it has taken my attention away from 'Dissolution' and 'Homeland'.
Oh yeah and I only recently got into the novels...
Yeah, that one surprised me, as well.
I didn't care for the original Avatar trilogy nearly as much as I did the last two books. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zelg of Cyric
Acolyte
44 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2005 : 08:09:59
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I just finished reading the Avatar trilogy and have started Prince of Lies. I was surprised to find that by this novel Cyric had already killed Leira I had assumed that this event was in the now Avatar Series.
So my question is since Leira's death was not on Prince of Lies what story was this in or was the event even in a novel at all?
Also I find it curious that at the end of Waterdeep AO calls Cyric the new god of Strife and Death but murder isn't mentioned. Was this just a typo or was there to be a new lord of murder eventually and it just defaulted to Cyric?
Spoilers possible, increased confusion aslo possible
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Let's see if we can keep our gods and goddess straight. Bhaal was, at the time Cyric killed him, the God of MURDER AND DEATH. When Myrkul was destroyed he was NOT THE GOD OF DEATH. He was the LORD OF THE DEAD(big difference)and also the GOD OF DECAY and DISEASE. Bane was the GOD OF STRIFE,HATRED, AND TYRANNY.
So Strife takes care of Bane and Death takes care of Bhaal. So it seems that it was left out that Cyric was the Lord of the Dead, which probably was ommited since it went without mentioning since Cyric's Realm was the Realm of the Dead at that time.
It's true that Ao didn't mention murder, but he didn't mention decay disease,hatred, or tyranny either. I don't know who assumed all these roles. It seemed that Bane assumed the title of God of Murder after Bhaal was destroyed, because it says that Bane is the God of Murder on the Back of Tantras. After Bane was destroyed, I don't know. I would think Cyric would Assume that one.
I believe Liera was the GODDESS of ILLUSION and DECEPTION at her demise. Maybe Cyric assumed those titles too, but it seems that MASK the SHADOWLORD, GOD of INTRIGUE would be a better candidate since deception and illusion fit so nicely with intrigue and shadow. However, Cyric is the PRINCE OF LIES so I'm saying he gets Deception, and Mask gets Illusion. I think Hatred definitely should go to Cyric. Decay should go to Kelemvor. Disease is Talona's area so she should now have a monopoly on disease, or maybe Kelemvor should inherit that one too, I don't know. That leaves Tyranny, and I am going to have to go with Cyric on that one too.
So I got Cyric after Kelemvor Usurps as God of Death, Murder, Hatred, Strife, Deception, and Tyranny.
This is all conjecture though. Maybe a more learned one knows the truth about the passing of titles in the Avatar Series. |
"Even before he first walked the world as a mortal, Cyric had the will to resist the random call of Fate and make his own fortune. As his newborn soul stood before the goddesses, he cast a light upon Tymora's silver coin, blinding them to his presence. The deities never saw the coin fall, never settled their wager on Cyric's destiny. Thus was he born into the world without any fate save the one he himself could forge." -- from the Cyrinishad |
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Zelg of Cyric
Acolyte
44 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2005 : 08:29:28
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I just thought of something else. I remember that scene with Ao. Mystra was complaining that Cyric was causing too many wars in building his power in the kingdom of the dead and that it was disrupting the balance. Ao just basically said, no duh, he's the God of Strife and Death, and that he is doing his job well is not a reason to punish him. Also that it was the responsibilty of all the Gods to preserve the the balance by also doing their jobs well.
So I don't think Ao was saying Cyric was only the God of Strife and Death. But that those where the titles that made Ao's point the best within the context, because they were talking about the wars. |
"Even before he first walked the world as a mortal, Cyric had the will to resist the random call of Fate and make his own fortune. As his newborn soul stood before the goddesses, he cast a light upon Tymora's silver coin, blinding them to his presence. The deities never saw the coin fall, never settled their wager on Cyric's destiny. Thus was he born into the world without any fate save the one he himself could forge." -- from the Cyrinishad |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2005 : 16:40:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Zelg of Cyric
Spoilers possible, increased confusion aslo possible
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I believe Liera was the GODDESS of ILLUSION and DECEPTION at her demise.
Yes, and the "patroness of illusionists and liars" (Faiths and Avatars, p. 93)
quote:
Maybe Cyric assumed those titles too,
The last I recall is also from Faiths and Avatars where it is mentioned that "churches of Leira still operate, and their priests received spells, but these are granted by Cyric in the guise of Leira, although the Leiran either do not know (most of them) or do not care" (p. 93).
The FRCS has deception and illusion part of Cyric's portfolio.
Perhaps someone with Faiths and Pantheons can tell us what information that tome contains regarding this subject. |
Edited by - SiriusBlack on 18 Jan 2005 16:42:53 |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2005 : 21:10:10
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If there's anything new in F&P I can't find it, but then again, I often miss things.
Anyway, deception and illusion are part of Cyric's portfolio in that tome as well.
On a sidenote, statting deities... oh the stupdidity. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
Edited by - Kajehase on 18 Jan 2005 21:11:22 |
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JamesLowder
Forgotten Realms Author & Game Designer
USA
310 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2005 : 00:06:03
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quote:
Originally posted by the psychotic seaotter
Sure you could say it was a typo but from the intro to Prince of Lies it is suggested (at least to me) that the Avatar Project was done between a small group of people. So that makes me wonder if designer X decided Cyric would get Murder why didn't he tell Troy Denning, who was under the Richard Awlinson name, to inlcude that?
There were a number of events from The Time of Troubles--including things that happen in between Waterdeep and Prince of Lies--that just couldn't fit into the books. Some are explained in game products. Some are even referenced in the Avatar crossover issues of the Realms and AD&D comics from DC.
Cheers,
James Lowder |
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Avatar Series Question
