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Kitira Gildragon
Learned Scribe
USA
191 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 18:59:18
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I've noticed that most DMs I know request their players to play good characters.
How many of you use alot of Neutral or Evil based characters. Hell, do you *encourage* evil characters in your campaigns? Why or why not?
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-Space for rent- |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 19:27:50
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Well Kentinal when played certainly can be called good impaired (if anybody is interested can look at website, sorry that it is a geocities one , but it is free), however most of his evil plans has an inadvertent positive result (as far as grand schemes goes).
Playing with Evil has a down side that can breakup most campaigns. There is no trust in the adventuring party, they are only together because either something more powerful has ordered them to be together , or they each seek to take advantage of the others. Keep them around as long as they are useful. Even with the best players sooner or later it will come down to "there cann be only one" and most players hate having their characters dying. Evil is very hard, I certainly have asked for some Evil characters (like wife, err forgot that was her idea) but with them I always held the greater power, they were a minion that dared not to cross my Characters.
Neutral is much safer, though sometimes the disregard for order results in very unexpected results that makes it hard to plan long term campaigns. Good players that I can trust to play well are permitted to be of the more difficult alingments, I never have encouraged an all Evil campaign, all Neutral I have had no problem with (just adjusts to the unexpected events). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 20:00:57
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I have always taken the position of allowing my players to play whatever they want, and attempted ot go out of my way to bend over backwards to give them what they want.
This has ended with some rather unusual characters, and some interesting situations and roleplaying situations that have in the end enriched my gaminbg experience greatly, and I am blessed with players that don't take advantage of my giving nature.
With a mix that has consisted of a range between CE and CG at times, the play is never boring, always interesting, and often leaves me on the edge of my seat wondering what will happen next... and I'm the DM!
a partial cast of my campaign follows, if it bothers anyone, I will remove it, as it exists here solely as an example.
Vitrael Thorikaust, male CE Half Fiend Gold Elf Pyromancer. Last Scion of House Thorikaust, of incubus ancestry, he seeks to restore the glory of his noble line and lay waste to the elves that saw its destruction. He sees the party as a means to an end, and is ever ready to take advantage of them, even if he does defend them. Good servants are hard to find after all.
Dark Wolf, male CN Lupine Wolf Shaman. Raised by wild elves he never knew his parents who were killed by goblinoids in the Moonwood. He knew he was different when it was found he could shift into the form of a wolf when the thrill of the hunt was in him. His adoptive father who had a wolf totem took this to be good omen. After conferring with a tribe of Lythari it is revealed that he is not a lycanthrope, but something different. Something much more ancient. He has set forth into the world to find more of his kind. And perhaps a mate. Or three. First joining the party out of naiveté, he has begun to see the party as his pack, a pack that he leads. One day he might need to put down one to maintain unity, but such is the responsibility of leader.
Kyros Devanto, male CE Human Red Wizard Evoker. Taken from his parents at a young age he neither knows nor cares of his roots. All he knows is that power is a thing much to be desired. At the moment he can use the party to gain that power. As he acquires wealth and experience he seeks to attain a position of supremacy in the world. All will quake at the mention of his name. He sees the party as his personal retinue of bodyguards and lackeys, as is only befitting a person of his importance. He allows them the illusion of autonomy only to appease them; it is good for morale after all.
Arkemn Trefore, male CG Human Warmaster. After his parents were killed during the Godswar Arkemn was raised by the unit of military his parents were members of: The Purple Dragons. After some time he rose to a position of some respect within the organization, but was known mostly for his unorthodox tactics. After a time he managed to form a band of soldiers, mercenaries and freebooters to clean up and claim the border region known as the stone lands. The other party members were quickly identified by his superiors as possible resources, and he was instructed to join them in adventuring to try to negate any damage they could cause and steer their objectives to ends desirable by the crown.
Sir Stedd Evanguard, male CG Human Dragonslayer. After a series of rather disheartening misadventures his order began to think of poor Stedd as almost a complete failure as a knight. He was given the unenviable task of forming a group to invade the Abyss and retrieve a kidnapped elven cleric from the Demonweb pits. Given a healthy stipend of gold with which to recruit his team he quickly fell in with a "very helpful" scout and explorer (aka Rogue) who helped him assemble a team of adventurers no one would miss to set off. Unfortunately, he in a blunder of almost comical proportions he chose the rest of the party out of the City dungeon instead of her accomplices. Given the chance for a pile of gold and full pardon (for their recent brand of mischief) the party quickly agreed. His order figures that at the best they might get the cleric back, and worst they will be rid of Stedd, whose previous exploits include slaying a fierce clutch of red dragonlings...and bringing down the wrath of their Great Wyrm mother upon the old guild hall (now referred to as "the slag").
Aspen female CG rogue, After catching a glimpse of the haul of swag carried out of the dungeons of the land by successful adventurers, dragon slayers, and explorers(as well as the handsome sums paid to operatives of the crown) she began a path of Scout, sniper and "infiltration expert". The founder of the now guild wide policy of itemized lists of fees and charges designed to relieve adventurers of their wealth. Adventurers are insane to not bring a skilled lock and trap smith with them on their journeys, and it turns out almost as insane to take some. After escaping from the dungeon with their hauls, she always begins to total the bill for her services, ending with a nicely padded end sum. The embodiment of lawful traits wrapped in a chaotic bundle of nervous energy and quickly fluctuating interests those adventurers that do not contemplate doing away with her for her normally erratic fancies, almost always consider similar actions when the local explorers impound their magical items after they refuse to pay.
After sighting a fat(and none too bright) mark in Stedd she quickly latched on as the opportunist she is, almost managed in succeeding in springing a group of her fellow guild members, from the local dungeons, but instead is now attached to the party. She has however begun to feel sorry for the good knight, and his seemingly horrible luck has begun to wear off on her: leading to several rather curiously unlucky occurrences. Seeing the generally counterproductive and (highly profitable) nature of the party she follows them on their adventures always quick to pick up the pieces when things fall apart. She even gives most of them back(less a small finder's fee).
Xoron, male(?)LN Solar Celestial. As a youth in the service of helm he acted as standard bearer of his god and witnessed events in Maztica. He became disillusioned and traveled east, where in his naiveté he was captured by a cult and was to be used in a breeding program to produce a being of immense power. After his rescue he feels he owes the party a life debt and follows them until his debt is repaid.
Callionelisstessia "Callie" female CN Half Succubus Nymph. Her mother was a Nymph, a creature of supreme beauty, and her father, an incubus, set forth to seduce her, a crowning achievement. His arrogance was great, and after he failed in the attempt he simply raped her. Her mother strived always to show her only love, but her fiendish nature showed through, and after she had worked her way through most of the creatures in her domain, charming and beguiling, she wandered off to see the world. She was taken in by a cult and for a while was their tool, until she grew bored and brazenly seduced the head of the cult, after she left and the beguilement wore thin he saw his foolishness and recaptured her. Intent on breeding a creature with her "charms" but a more lawful outlook he attempted to pair her with a captured Solar, with little success. Rescued by the party she sees them as a source of endless amusement as she pits one against another. Unbeknownst to her the ever vigilant eye of Xoron is upon her, attempting to negate the worst of her manipulations.
Supporting Cast:
Ugurth of Ulkrunnar, CN Half Orc Thayan Knight. Rising from the pairing of a punished red wizard, who for whatever crimes she commited against her fellows, was stripped of her magic, and cast to the orcs as a treat. Ugurth rose in position among the beasts, posessed of a stronger will than his kin. When Kyros chose his bodyguard, only the least desirable(by Thayan standards) prospects were open to him as a lowly apprentice, however Kyros was greatly pleased with the pliability and strength of his chosen champion, coming as close to loving the half orc as any posessed of such a black heart could, treating him at worst like a stupid yet useful hound, and at best as a simpleton child under his care. Most simpleton children, however, cannot rip the arms off of one who shows impertinence to their keeper.
Silvermane, female N Lupine Sorcerer. Blessed with not only the gift of magic in her pack, but also the “biting cold” a trait allowing her spells of frost and ice to bit deeply into even the cold resistant hides of her fellow pack members, hers was a position given by fear, not respect. When her pack was scattered at the hands of Darkwolf, his defeat of her mate(whom had never even lain with her, much less had any feelings for her) she was technically his by rite of her pack, and she followed him when he left the frigid north. Over time she has come to truly care for him, and has tried to embrace the “civilized lands” strange ways as best she can, though neither of them are truly comfortable there.
Rosydia, female NG Transmuter. Hailing from faraway Halruaa, her mother a diviner of no small import received a vision, one of her Daughter and a north man warrior. IF her daughter did not prevent the death of and aid him, at a specific time(which is unknown), there will be dire consequences for all of Faer#365;n. During her long travels to the northern lands, more than one impertinent brigand or lascivious barkeep now wears a form he was not born with, a testament to her fiery temper and powerful magic.
Alara Uthraakt. Female CE Cleric of Velsharoon. From Bezantur in Thay, Alara was chosen for the priesthood of Velsharoon after her parents and family were massacred by undead sent by a vengeful red wizard, the undead not only did not harm her, but even refused to harm her, but a pair of skeletons even refused to leave her side when ordered to return by their master. Though she shows some loyalty to Kyros, Alara still uses him as a tool to achieve her goals. After her travels with him recently however, she has begun to have some of her old feelings to him return. Things she has not felt since the brief romance they shared in their Youth.
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Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 20:07:40
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Stories are about heroes accepting the call to adventure, overcoming impediments, and bringing back the cosmic reward. You cannot have an evil protagonist, because it's meaningless in the grammar of story: villains oppose the hero and, symbolically, the telling of the story itself. If the villain wins, the story is not told. A central moral conflict in the Realms is love and memory versus evil and forgetfulness, as most deliberately explored in Elminster in Hell.
The literary tradition the Realms is part of has protagonists who aren't morally pure, even antiheroes, but not villains. When I play in the Realms I want to recreate the feel I get from the best Realms sources: that can't be done with characters whose alignment turns the moral framework of the setting, the genre, and story itself upside down. And playing an evil player character must either be an intense and potentially dangerous moral exploration or, if not, a tasteless trivializing of evil. And the Realms is not designed for or well suited to the first.
I think most people realize this intuitively, but explaining it to someone who doesn't can be almost impossible.
So the forthcomng Champions of Ruin disturbs me, people who like playing evil characters disturb me, and I want nothing to do with those campaigns. |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 20:18:52
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I stick towards a general good alignment for my players with no true neutral. You have to stand for something IMC. Heroism is rewarded far more than just going at something for monetary gain.
I am looking forward to Champions of Ruin to see if it has anything to enhance my bad guys. I must have overlooked the part where it was for player characters, so maybe I won't get the use out of it I thought. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 20:19:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
people who like playing evil characters disturb me,
With a lack of evil character players, the DM has to become the one that plays the evil Cs. I do suspose ones that like playing evil Cs too much would concern me as well. However I would not go as far as you do in this statement. Occassional playing an Evil character can provide for an escape from stress. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 20:31:54
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It all depends on how one defines "hero" and the moral context they use in doing so.
the alignment system we have currently is counter to playing realistic characters, equiring individuals to fit within one codified section of only 9 alignments.
One also has to take into account what makes someone or an act evil. Slavery is not evil to all cultures or people, nor is murder, human sacrifice or so forth. To assume there is a universal system of good or evil is flawed in that the person saying there is one is innevitably the definer of such a "universal" system and it is innevitably tainted by their own personal feelings and morals.
It also comes back to magnitude of evil, and purpose. THere is a distinct difference between a character playing a a "evil" character that is way over the top and an obvious cry for attention, and someone playign n evil character more in line with BLack Mage of 8-bit theatre or baby Stewie of family guy, for instance.
I do not like ot personally play evil characters, truth be told. However being DM gives me a certain latitude here, I am not personally roleplaying any characters, as DM, I am simply realistically representing the fantasy world the game is set in. If the villain in my campaign is going to murder a dozen babies in sacrifice to his dark god, that is that villain doing it, pursuing his own agendas and goals and aims, not me acting in some way, I am simply arbitrating it and representing those actions to the players.
To some who have a hard time drawing lines between characters and their creators, or read too much into that connection, I supposethe playing or portrayel of evil characters can be quite disturbing. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 20:52:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Kitira Gildragon
I've noticed that most DMs I know request their players to play good characters.
How many of you use alot of Neutral or Evil based characters. Hell, do you *encourage* evil characters in your campaigns? Why or why not?
Thinking back, I'd say that most often we have tended to be goods and neutrals.
As a DM I prefer players to be neutral alignments, but I wouldn't request that anyone be any alignment. Its their call. And they suffer the consequences of crossing the line with the peers, ie. death, starting over with menial equip. at level 1, again.
Anyway, I think that neutrals, especially CN's are easier to motivate, and are generally game for just about anything. Plunder a dungeon, plunder an old tomb or ruined temple, raid a monastery, fight a war, massacre an entire tribe or orci, orclings and all, undertake a quest, engage in intrigue, for good, for evil, as the whim might strike them. Very human.
LNs and CNs can themselves utilize good and evil in a versatile fashion ... resulting in many "interesting" situations that could never really arise for those in the more "locked-in" alignments of good and evil. I suppose versatility is the key word.
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"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Deverien Valandil
Seeker
73 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2004 : 04:02:48
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Bear in mind that 'evil' is not an absolute. There are characters who possess many different degrees of 'evil', and this can make evil characters interesting to play. To paraphrase a line from a movie whose name escapes me, "Sometimes the only way to fight evil is with another type of evil". Want to encourage someone to play an evil assassin? Have someone even more evil as his nemesis.
Just because a character's alignment is 'evil', doesn't mean that they run around stealing and killing people indiscriminately. Even an evil character can perform 'good' acts with the right motivations and circumstances. |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2004 : 04:14:47
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It comes back to how one defines evil. I have been i na lot of conversations about this where they hold evil to be an absolute, "evil is evil" they say. Most of the evil characters in my game are jsut Neutral with evil tendencies, as sure as many of the good ones are Neutral with good tendencies.
They are human afterall(or a near facsimile thereof), afterall. I have always taken issue with the ALignment system and would gladly flush it down the crapper if I had a better system to replace it with. As such I try to ignore the damned thing as much as possible. And only truly bother with it when I know or have a feeling that alignment affecting spells might come into play, then I have to try to cram a unique individual into one of 9 narrowly defined categories, which is a heckuva lot harder than it sounds.
ANd, there are redeeming qualities. Just as a stout goodly hearted character might have dark secrets and compulsions, an evil character could have their redeeming qualities. The Villain that values his friend, or lover, and might actually sacrifice themselves to save them in the same breath they try to unleash a demonic horde to ravage the land.
Evil people can love. Evil people can have friends. Evil people can even just go about heir daily duties, put in their 9-5, draw a paycheck, raise kids and die a regualr death having never attempted to conquer the world.
It just comes back to how we as each individual person defines both good and evil, a thing that noone can ever truly be taught, and must learn for themselves. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2004 : 05:16:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
Evil people can love. Evil people can have friends. Evil people can even just go about heir daily duties, put in their 9-5, draw a paycheck, raise kids and die a regualr death having never attempted to conquer the world.
This is a very good point...
To back some of this up with canon examples:
Sememmon and Ashemmi -- two evil people who are utterly devoted to each other, and who would never think of betraying each other.
Asraf yn Malik el Kahaman yi Manshaka, a LE vampire that's a member of the Tel'Teukiira and a willing servant of Khelben
Larloch and Halaster: two quite evil spellslingers who are quite content to leave others alone, so long as they are left alone themselves...
There are others, but this shows that evil doesn't always mean "take over the world and extinguish all good", nor does it mean that evil beings will never undertake selfless, even noble causes. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2004 : 05:21:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Kitira Gildragon
I've noticed that most DMs I know request their players to play good characters.
I can't recall ever encountering a DM who made a "request" for me to play a character that was a certain alignment. Nor, in my DMing have I ever made such a request to my players.
I'd have to know the circumstances where others received such a request. If it was just where a DM had a certain storyline in mind, I can understand such a request. If, however, it was a DM that just wanted his/her players to role play good characters only...well, time for me to find a new DM most likely if I ever encountered something like that. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2004 : 05:41:49
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The way Ive gone about running the story of my present campaign is that the Players will play through the events in the story from 3 different ways. The First campaign turned out to be a pretty much CN/CG party and this first party is about half way through the campaign (They will be starting COSQ in January which will finish off the campaign for that party). The next campaign will be for the evil party and will allow the PCs to do such nasty things as smuggle drugs into Cormyr, attack trade caravans of other nations and Attack and defend against other evil organisations such as the Church of Cyric and Shade enclave. The last campaign will be the LG campaign where the PCs will play a group of Cormyrian Soldiers, Nobles, adventurers this party will be your sterotypical "I follow the Rightous path" group |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2004 : 19:48:48
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Generally, evil campaigns have been abysmal failures in my group. Every time we have tried it, the party members end up killing each other. Why not? They are evil characters with no morals. The only relatively successful evil campaign we played, (I was playing, not running this one) I played an necromancer who had aspirations of becoming a Red Wizard, and my friend played a young fighter with aspirations of becoming a Thayan Knight. In our character's histories, we had grown up together, and were best friends, like brothers. Of course he killed anyone who looked at me wrong, which led to several party member's deaths, but at least we never had a TPK (total party kill)
To me, the game is geared around heroes fighting evil, and that's the attraction of the game. Of course, if you've been playing for umpteen years, it's nice to have a diversion now and then. Playing an evil campaign can be ok for a change of pace, it's just not really suited for a long-term campaign in my opinion. |
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Dungeon Moron
Acolyte
41 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2005 : 20:05:56
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Due to an upcoming potential evilish campaign i will run in the near future, I came upon this scroll.
I have never in my many years of experience running campaings lead a fully evil campaign, so I sought some experiences and examples from fellow scribes and DM's.
My opinion in this matter is almost fully written by Capn Charlie (what's in a name):
quote:
It comes back to how one defines evil. I have been i na lot of conversations about this where they hold evil to be an absolute, "evil is evil" they say. Most of the evil characters in my game are jsut Neutral with evil tendencies, as sure as many of the good ones are Neutral with good tendencies.
They are human afterall(or a near facsimile thereof), afterall. I have always taken issue with the ALignment system and would gladly flush it down the crapper if I had a better system to replace it with. As such I try to ignore the damned thing as much as possible. And only truly bother with it when I know or have a feeling that alignment affecting spells might come into play, then I have to try to cram a unique individual into one of 9 narrowly defined categories, which is a heckuva lot harder than it sounds.
ANd, there are redeeming qualities. Just as a stout goodly hearted character might have dark secrets and compulsions, an evil character could have their redeeming qualities. The Villain that values his friend, or lover, and might actually sacrifice themselves to save them in the same breath they try to unleash a demonic horde to ravage the land.
Evil people can love. Evil people can have friends. Evil people can even just go about heir daily duties, put in their 9-5, draw a paycheck, raise kids and die a regualr death having never attempted to conquer the world.
It just comes back to how we as each individual person defines both good and evil, a thing that noone can ever truly be taught, and must learn for themselves.
It is a grand misunderstanding that evil implies there can be only one and everything must die and be destroyed to accomplish this. Why would there be organizations and even countries build upon evil thoughts?
Furthermore, I understand that roleplaying in a fantasy world is a chance for most people to become this herioc person who saves the weak, etc. But we're not all paladins.
The whole idea of role-playing is to play somebody in a fantasy world, emphasis upon fantasy.
I have read that the Realms were influenced somehow by some comic code, as a result of which the "good guys" always had to win. I am glad this code has been left behind and the "balance" in the realms can be really restored.
In my honest opinion there is no good without evil, while there is no wealth without the poor, etc.
I firmly believe evil is inside everyone of us (although i wouldn't cal it evil), just being held back by our values and education and our own conscience.
Isn't it a great oppurtunity to dwell in the mind somebody who does things you wouldn't normally do or couldn't do. |
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So you want to be an evil guy...
