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Verghityax
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 00:27:27
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| What I mean is that new feats, spells, prestige classes etc. are ok as long as they cover a reasonable amount of pages. And when about half of a sourcebook (which already is thinner than the previous ones) is filled with the kind of stuff I mentioned I really feel that it is too much of it. And Warlocko is right about what he says. Why do we have to read about Cult of the Dragon and Zhentarim again? There have been loads of pages written on these topics (in Cloak & Dagger, Lords of Darkness and of course The Cult of the Dragon). It's already 3,5 ed. and we still don't know what Men of Basilisk are doing these days. The same problem concerns the Iron Ring, Xanathar's Thieves' Guild, Aurora's Emporium, Tel'Teukiira, the Flames of the Dark Sun and so on. When I'm buying a book like "Champions of Ruin", tens of new feats and spells is not what I'm expecting. For me "a crunch" is the background, not the ways to empower my character to make it "Oh-My-Oh-My-I'm-So-Very-Powerful-And-So-Multiclassed". I understand that the number of classes to pick always gives more opportunities for players but why has it got to be achieved at the cost of the Realmslore? |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 01:06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Verghityax
What I mean is that new feats, spells, prestige classes etc. are ok as long as they cover a reasonable amount of pages. And when about half of a sourcebook (which already is thinner than the previous ones) is filled with the kind of stuff I mentioned I really feel that it is too much of it. And Warlocko is right about what he says. Why do we have to read about Cult of the Dragon and Zhentarim again? There have been loads of pages written on these topics (in Cloak & Dagger, Lords of Darkness and of course The Cult of the Dragon). It's already 3,5 ed. and we still don't know what Men of Basilisk are doing these days. The same problem concerns the Iron Ring, Xanathar's Thieves' Guild, Aurora's Emporium, Tel'Teukiira, the Flames of the Dark Sun and so on. When I'm buying a book like "Champions of Ruin", tens of new feats and spells is not what I'm expecting. For me "a crunch" is the background, not the ways to empower my character to make it "Oh-My-Oh-My-I'm-So-Very-Powerful-And-So-Multiclassed". I understand that the number of classes to pick always gives more opportunities for players but why has it got to be achieved at the cost of the Realmslore?
Aurora's Emporium and Tel'Teukiira might be in Champions of Valor.
For general terminology.
Fluff is anything that is history, background, or lore.
Crunch is rules information, i.e. feats, skills, PrCs and such (usually). Spells and Magic Items fall under the category of both, but mainly Crunch, unless there is history given with them. |
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Verghityax
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 01:24:28
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
For general terminology.
Fluff is anything that is history, background, or lore.
Crunch is rules information, i.e. feats, skills, PrCs and such (usually). Spells and Magic Items fall under the category of both, but mainly Crunch, unless there is history given with them.
Oh, didn't know that. Thank You for information. I hope that my previous posts did not make too much confusion. Thanks again  |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 01:34:41
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
For general terminology.
Fluff is anything that is history, background, or lore.
Crunch is rules information, i.e. feats, skills, PrCs and such (usually). Spells and Magic Items fall under the category of both, but mainly Crunch, unless there is history given with them.
I for one prefer Realmslore or lore and mechanics or game rules, instead of fluff and crunch. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 03:00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
For general terminology.
Fluff is anything that is history, background, or lore.
Crunch is rules information, i.e. feats, skills, PrCs and such (usually). Spells and Magic Items fall under the category of both, but mainly Crunch, unless there is history given with them.
I for one prefer Realmslore or lore and mechanics or game rules, instead of fluff and crunch. :)
I'll echo that. The terms sound more appropriate.
Bink! Planarlore, like Realsmlore, is also the reason why I love PS so much...  .
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 12 Jun 2005 03:03:40 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 03:24:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
For general terminology.
Fluff is anything that is history, background, or lore.
Crunch is rules information, i.e. feats, skills, PrCs and such (usually). Spells and Magic Items fall under the category of both, but mainly Crunch, unless there is history given with them.
I for one prefer Realmslore or lore and mechanics or game rules, instead of fluff and crunch. :)
Ditto -- but it took me a while to adapt to that term (especially since another forum I'm part of, stuff that's not rules is called "fluff"). |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 03:34:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
...(especially since another forum I'm part of, stuff that's not rules is called "fluff").
I still like to antagonise posters on that other forum by using another term. My goal is to finally change the perception of what fluff actually means there...  .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 09:35:29
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What ever happaned to the CoR Web enhancement?
Where already into the COS stuff and still no Web Enhancement for Champions.... |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 13:21:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Verghityax
What I mean is that new feats, spells, prestige classes etc. are ok as long as they cover a reasonable amount of pages. And when about half of a sourcebook (which already is thinner than the previous ones) is filled with the kind of stuff I mentioned I really feel that it is too much of it. And Warlocko is right about what he says. Why do we have to read about Cult of the Dragon and Zhentarim again? There have been loads of pages written on these topics (in Cloak & Dagger, Lords of Darkness and of course The Cult of the Dragon). It's already 3,5 ed. and we still don't know what Men of Basilisk are doing these days. The same problem concerns the Iron Ring, Xanathar's Thieves' Guild, Aurora's Emporium, Tel'Teukiira, the Flames of the Dark Sun and so on. When I'm buying a book like "Champions of Ruin", tens of new feats and spells is not what I'm expecting. For me "a crunch" is the background, not the ways to empower my character to make it "Oh-My-Oh-My-I'm-So-Very-Powerful-And-So-Multiclassed". I understand that the number of classes to pick always gives more opportunities for players but why has it got to be achieved at the cost of the Realmslore?
I understand your thoughts. Some of your factors are among others on why I did not purchase the tome. But, when it comes to the question you asked at the end of your post, I think it all comes down to something Richard Baker said a couple of years ago almost on why many consumers purhcase Realms products. In short, a large consumer base is not purchasing such tomes for Realms campaigns. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 17:32:58
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| While I did really enjoy Champions of Ruin, I would have liked to have seen more info on the various groups of baddies. There was some good stuff, but not really all that much new stuff. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Jun 2005 17:33:17 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2005 : 03:01:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
While I did really enjoy Champions of Ruin, I would have liked to have seen more info on the various groups of baddies. There was some good stuff, but not really all that much new stuff.
Some updated material on the current activities of the Black Network would have been nice -- mostly in places like Darkhold and the Citadel of the Raven.
And overall, I'm still not sure whether I'm accustomed to the idea of these 'evil nodes'.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 13 Jun 2005 03:05:21 |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2005 : 05:01:38
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
While I did really enjoy Champions of Ruin, I would have liked to have seen more info on the various groups of baddies. There was some good stuff, but not really all that much new stuff.
Some updated material on the current activities of the Black Network would have been nice -- mostly in places like Darkhold and the Citadel of the Raven.
And overall, I'm still not sure whether I'm accustomed to the idea of these 'evil nodes'.
Aye, hopefully, Champions of Valor will give us "Good Nodes." |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2005 : 05:07:18
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| "Good Nodes" that reminds me of something I overheard Wooly saying to THO one day in the halls . . . hm |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2005 : 05:45:18
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
While I did really enjoy Champions of Ruin, I would have liked to have seen more info on the various groups of baddies. There was some good stuff, but not really all that much new stuff.
Some updated material on the current activities of the Black Network would have been nice -- mostly in places like Darkhold and the Citadel of the Raven.
And overall, I'm still not sure whether I'm accustomed to the idea of these 'evil nodes'.
Aye, hopefully, Champions of Valor will give us "Good Nodes."
Thomas Reid has already confirmed there will be "Good Nodes" in CoV |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2005 : 05:58:00
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
"Good Nodes" that reminds me of something I overheard Wooly saying to THO one day in the halls . . . hm
Shh... Don't give away all of my lines!   |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2005 : 01:30:02
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Disappointing, very disappointing.
I'm getting close to putting Forgotten Realms into the same category that generic D&D and D20 books are in for me, and that's the "Download and see if it's worth my money" category.
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"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2005 : 04:17:34
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Disappointing, very disappointing.
I'm getting close to putting Forgotten Realms into the same category that generic D&D and D20 books are in for me, and that's the "Download and see if it's worth my money" category.
Why do you feel this way? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2005 : 04:59:02
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
"Download legally" you mean, through an online purchase... .
What other way is there? |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2005 : 05:58:23
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
"Download legally" you mean, through an online purchase... .
What other way is there?
I have heard of other ways, and I throughly disapprove of the practice.
However, on the other side, there have been times it would have been nice to have my Library with me without getting a hernia in the process.
But a computer screen just can't take the place of holding a book in your hands.
Plus a bit harder to have a dozen screens scatter around, like you can books.
It's one thing to have legally scanned material, but completely another to have pirated material. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2005 : 07:18:28
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
"Download legally" you mean, through an online purchase... .
What other way is there?
Through file-sharing, like Kazaa for example. Obtaining scanned copies freely is an illegal practice as is sharing them across person-to-person software. There have been some advocates for this method at Candlekeep in the past...  .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2005 : 16:46:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why do you feel this way?
I didn't need to see reprinted material from the Vile Darkness. I wanted info about NPCs and groups of the realms, instead of I spells and feats that aren't really all that good and certainly didn't need.
I just wanted a more comprehensive book of bad guys for Forgotten Realms, instead we get Forgotten Realms: Book of Vile Darkness Lite Edition.
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"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2005 : 16:50:20
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Through file-sharing, like Kazaa for example. Obtaining scanned copies freely is an illegal practice as is sharing them across person-to-person software. There have been some advocates for this method at Candlekeep in the past... .
But sadly the material has not been worth the money for a book that'll be taking up shelve space and collecting dust. If I'm never going to use it, I don't want to find that out after I bring it home and go through it thoroughly.
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"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2005 : 17:24:32
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
I didn't need to see reprinted material from the Vile Darkness. I wanted info about NPCs and groups of the realms, instead of I spells and feats that aren't really all that good and certainly didn't need.
Seriously, three or four reprinted feats can't be that bad?
IMO are some reprints necessary for completeness. It is difficult to build a book around new concepts from another supplement, without giving some info about the source material (in this case a couple of Vile feats).
I do not agree with some of the choices of the designers (or probably the developers). I hoped for more info on evil churches other than Shar, a couple of prestige classes should have been dropped because there are similar classes out there already, and some of the info on evil organizations should have been in Lords of Darkness, but there are no "unnecessary" reprints as far as I can tell.
That said, I still rather liked the Champions of Ruin, and do not regret the purchase. There are no such thing as the perfect gaming book (although the 3e FRCS comes close), and CoR is no exception. I'll get more mileage out of this one than the Book of Vile Darkness. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2005 : 12:32:01
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
I just wanted a more comprehensive book of bad guys for Forgotten Realms, instead we get Forgotten Realms: Book of Vile Darkness Lite Edition.
Why am I suddenly reminded of a popular series of beer commercials in the 70s/80s? |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2005 : 01:52:24
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| Did we ever find out what the cover art of Champions of Ruin was suppose to be about? (Followers of one of the Orc gods riding Black Dragons helped by what looks like 2 Elven or Half elf females attacking a human town or village) |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2005 : 02:15:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Did we ever find out what the cover art of Champions of Ruin was suppose to be about? (Followers of one of the Orc gods riding Black Dragons helped by what looks like 2 Elven or Half elf females attacking a human town or village)
Perhaps an attack by members of the Cult of the Dragon with dragons assisting as mounts? |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2005 : 02:20:28
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I dont believe Ive ever seen Clerics/followers of Shargaas being listed as members of the Cult of the Dragon and given the nature of that god its unlikely that they'd work together with other races |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Champions of Ruin sourcebook
