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Callador
Acolyte
Norway
3 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Apr 2013 : 23:06:55
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Hi,
I'm one of those players who still stick with 2nd edition AD&D :)
I have a question regarding paladins, more specifically their restrictions.
A paladin is restricted to 10 items, that part I don't mind. The part that confuse me is the fact that they also restrict on the type of items and the number of items you can have for each class.
What if you play a paladin who wields a two handed holy sword?
1) Out of the 10 magical items you have, one must be a shield.
Seems a bit pointless if you're already focused on two handed weapons, that you must have a magical shield. It's that, or just have 9 magical items total
2) If you have a two handed holy sword, and two handed sword is your preferred weapon, why would you ever use a different one? You already have the best weapon you can use, and want to use. So the limitation to type of items says you can have up to 4 weapons. Basically you have 3 slots that are pointless now, and you can't fill them up with misc magical items either.
Anyone have any thoughts / ideas / suggestion on the matter? A bit vague I suppose..what I'm getting at is if there's been anything said / written /done about this in later editions or if anyone got any reasonable suggestions on how to best deal with this restriction in a scenarion like this?
Any help is appreciated.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2013 : 23:32:33
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quote:
A paladin may not possess more than 10 magical items. Furthermore, these may not exceed one suit of armor, one shield, four weapons (arrows and bolts are not counted), and four other magical items
The one answer can be having a buckler, a small shield strapped to one arm.
quote:
A buckler (or target) is a very small shield that fastens on the forearm. It can be worn by crossbowmen and archers with no hindrance. Its small size enables it to protect against only one attack per melee round (of the user's choice), improving the character's Armor Class by 1 against that attack.
Of course if magical the protection would be better, in any event it does not prevent using a two handed weapon.
Of course the other option is do not have a magical shield, or any shield and be restricted to 9 magical items.
Edit: Might this might better fit in running realms or a different bookcase? I leave for moderators to decide. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 29 Apr 2013 00:02:21 |
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Vaeldroth
Acolyte
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2013 : 09:20:08
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What the crap, why would a paladin be running around with that many magical items?
Also, if I were the DM, I would not count any quest items, like magical items that were given you by an NPC for a specific task, etc. That wouldn't really constitute ownership unless the item could be used with a general purpose.
Example: Players are given a magical medallion that allows a particular portal to work. This would not be counted against the paladin's item count.
Good to see another 2nd Edition player other than myself here on Candlekeep! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2013 : 12:54:28
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| If you consider potions, 10 or 9 are not that many. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Caladan Brood
Senior Scribe
Norway
410 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2013 : 15:35:32
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| In "my" Realms there is much less magic so the question woild never come up, I assume. Have a related question, though - do the gods of Faerun all have paladins or only the lawful good ones? Is there a list of allowed paladinhoods for the Realms somewhere? Thanks. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2013 : 15:44:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Caladan Brood
In "my" Realms there is much less magic so the question woild never come up, I assume. Have a related question, though - do the gods of Faerun all have paladins or only the lawful good ones? Is there a list of allowed paladinhoods for the Realms somewhere? Thanks.
The write-ups for each deity would discuss whether or not they'd allow paladins. It is, for the most part, the LG deities, but there are some exceptions, like Sune Firehair. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Caladan Brood
Senior Scribe
Norway
410 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2013 : 15:51:26
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| Ah cool thanks. By writeups do you mean Faiths & Avatars, Demihuman Deities and Powers & Pantheons? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2013 : 17:23:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Caladan Brood
Ah cool thanks. By writeups do you mean Faiths & Avatars, Demihuman Deities and Powers & Pantheons?
Those are the best references for deities, though the 3E Faiths & Pantheons will also cover a lot of deities. It's not as comprehensive, but it is newer and a single source, as opposed to three books. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2013 : 18:02:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Callador
Hi,
I'm one of those players who still stick with 2nd edition AD&D :)
I have a question regarding paladins, more specifically their restrictions.
A paladin is restricted to 10 items, that part I don't mind. The part that confuse me is the fact that they also restrict on the type of items and the number of items you can have for each class.
What if you play a paladin who wields a two handed holy sword?
1) Out of the 10 magical items you have, one must be a shield.
Seems a bit pointless if you're already focused on two handed weapons, that you must have a magical shield. It's that, or just have 9 magical items total
2) If you have a two handed holy sword, and two handed sword is your preferred weapon, why would you ever use a different one? You already have the best weapon you can use, and want to use. So the limitation to type of items says you can have up to 4 weapons. Basically you have 3 slots that are pointless now, and you can't fill them up with misc magical items either.
Anyone have any thoughts / ideas / suggestion on the matter? A bit vague I suppose..what I'm getting at is if there's been anything said / written /done about this in later editions or if anyone got any reasonable suggestions on how to best deal with this restriction in a scenarion like this?
Any help is appreciated.
I cannot speak for any later editions, because I, too, got stuck somewhere in 2nd Edition. Of course, the 10-item restriction is a survivor from 1st edition, where there were a whole range of other restrictions that were supposed to ensure game balance, but which did not always make the most sense.
With regard to the four slots reserved for weapons: a character could use a different weapon that his preferred one for a range of reasons. For instance, two-handed swords are not the most handy weapons when you are fighting in a 5' high corridor.
For pure efficiency reasons, there is a genuine need for a paladin to have access to several weapon types (and, therefore, to magical weapons of said type).
First, there'd need to be a missile weapon of sorts (bow or crossbow, most likely). Second - the trusty dagger. Daggers are useful for a variety of reasons, the most important being that they are far more socially acceptable (more so, than, say, a two-handed sword at the local noble's ball), and also because it is a piercing weapon. And lastly, a paladin could do worse than carry a blunt weapon (with a Mace of disruption probably topping any Paladin's wishlist, Holy Avenger sword of no Holy Avenger Sword).
So, in short, in 2nd edition terms, the four slots would probably cover a slashing weapon (longsword, two-handed sword), one piercing weapon (dagger, short sword), one blunt weapon (mace, flail, morning star), and, finally, a long-range missile weapon. That's as well-balanced a mix as you are likely to get, and it takes up four slots. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2013 : 18:36:40
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Hey you forgot a staff for beating rust monsters. *G*
Though indeed preferred weapon should not be the only weapon. Many other weapons are not two handed, so a shield clearly used with them.
I still think a buckler can be used with the two handed sword, though 2nd does not state that directly. Wearing a shield on arm when launching an arrow should be no different then swinging a sword. It requires training for both to wear the hardware. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Caladan Brood
Senior Scribe
Norway
410 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2013 : 19:25:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Caladan Brood
Ah cool thanks. By writeups do you mean Faiths & Avatars, Demihuman Deities and Powers & Pantheons?
Those are the best references for deities, though the 3E Faiths & Pantheons will also cover a lot of deities. It's not as comprehensive, but it is newer and a single source, as opposed to three books.
Thanks. I have all those three but I can't recall having read about paladins in them (not that I have read them in depth, just browsed through). |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2013 : 19:54:02
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| Well, I do believe 2nd Edition followers were listed, permitted classes. Will need to look to be sure, however I do believe Paladins are listed for those deities that can have them. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2013 : 23:12:04
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The 2E PHB and DMG do provide more complete rules about these restrictions, if read carefully. PHBR12 Complete Paladin's Handbook adds some complexity and detail as well. It should really boil down to being a guideline, a generic example, a rough indicator of 2E's desired power-balance for the Paladin class. I have adjusted the rules before on an as-needed basis to add flavour; paladins serving Tempus might carry more magical weapons but never a magical shield, those serving Torm might only use magical versions of whatever equipment is normally "issued" to soldiers, etc.
It shouldn't be problematic until a paladin approaches the limit and has an obvious excess of magical loot. Superiors within the church hierarchy might assist with lightening a paladin's excessive magical burdens, or might reward the paladin with special permission to exceed the normal rules. Paladin characters shouldn't be fixated on the accumulation of things, such worldly attachments are merely distractions which induce weaknesses and temptations to true paragons of the faith ... this is not something which can be easily measured with a number, even though the number ten is given in the rules. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Vaeldroth
Acolyte
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2013 : 06:45:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Paladin characters shouldn't be fixated on the accumulation of things, such worldly attachments are merely distractions which induce weaknesses and temptations to true paragons of the faith ... this is not something which can be easily measured with a number, even though the number ten is given in the rules.
Well put. It also does bring into view though the usage of magical potions. If a paladin were to augment his arsenal too far with magical enhancements outside of weapons, armor, and the like, wouldn't that be tantamount to saying that his faith isn't strong enough to smite [x] evil, and that he needs to rely on potions and enhancements to get the job done?
I think what this amounts to is that a little more role play in the faith and interacting with the deity area might clear up any glaring imbalances brought on by the magic item restrictions. A paladin always has access to his fellow followers and his deity, something an equally powerful fighter would not.
Game balance in early editions is clearly on a much broader scope, but it does exist. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2013 : 22:13:06
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| True ... although a paladin should strive to not have deep questions of self-reliance vs selfless faith, they should ideally govern the paladin in unison. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2013 : 22:37:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Vaeldroth
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Paladin characters shouldn't be fixated on the accumulation of things, such worldly attachments are merely distractions which induce weaknesses and temptations to true paragons of the faith ... this is not something which can be easily measured with a number, even though the number ten is given in the rules.
Well put. It also does bring into view though the usage of magical potions. If a paladin were to augment his arsenal too far with magical enhancements outside of weapons, armor, and the like, wouldn't that be tantamount to saying that his faith isn't strong enough to smite [x] evil, and that he needs to rely on potions and enhancements to get the job done?
I, personally, would not think so. I'd think that a paladin with a small arsenal of magical goodies was well-prepared indeed for smiting evil in any circumstances.
Having a well-stocked toolkit does not mean one doesn't have skill or confidence. It means one is better prepared. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Callador
Acolyte
Norway
3 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2013 : 20:10:09
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I appreciate all the feedback. Just to clarify my question though, I do not mind the 10 magical item limit. Our DM runs a campaign / world with a lot of magic, so obtaining more than 10 magical items isn't that difficult in our campaign, but again I don't mind the 10 item limit really. I was mostly curious if there was any sourcebooks or otherwise, for 2nd edition AD&D, that had a different approach to the type of items as well as the amount of items. There are proficiencies that increase your armor by 2 if you spec in wielding one handed weapons for example, or you could dual wield 2 daggers instead of a shield etc. I find it a bit over-the-top restrictive that one of the 10 items *have* to be a shield, or you are instead restricted to 9 items.
Thanks once again for all the replies, I appreciate it greatly. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2013 : 19:38:32
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Low-magic settings often cap the maximum spell levels available, so crafting of magical items may be impossible, limited, and impractically complex.
But even no-magic settings can have a handful of special legendary items - stuff like the Sword Excalibur and the Holy Grail - which are basically treated like artifacts. Only a legendary paladin could expect to use such an item, and often only with some sort of heavy price or condition. He'd never realistically get more than one of these magic items unless the items themselves seem to attract each other through some sort of special historical resonance.
If a DM insists on a flat number (10, or whatever) limit, then it seems fair that a paladin character with one more of something needs to have one less of something else. Perhaps the paladin can simply own any 10 magical items of his choosing, but I would personally favour the make-your-own-permanent-career-decision approach (the paladin in your example could always have 2 magical daggers but never a magical shield). These decisions might even be made for the paladin by his deity, or his religious order, or even his combat trainer.
You might experiment with variable limits, say one magical item of the paladin's choosing permitted for every experience level gained or for every proficiency slot spent. This might better enforce humility on useless bumbling initiates while allowing champions of legend to wield mighty arsenals.
The paladin class presented in the AD&D 1E/2E PHB is just the template - an utterly generic plain vanilla Lawful Good dude on a horse. Compare the utterly generic plain vanilla Cleric template vs the many specialty priest subtypes available in a source like 2E FRA and it's easier to envision the likelihood of different paladin subtypes - berserk charioteers of Tempus, hammer-wielding magistrates of Tyr, steel legionairres of Torm, commando scouts of Helm, etc etc |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 04 May 2013 19:47:40 |
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2nd edition - paladin restrictions
