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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 09 May 2005 : 05:50:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Hmmm have to say Im abit disappointed with only 22 pages for Evil organisations. I was hoping they'd expand on LOD a\some in CoR, I was particularly hoping for a 1374 Organsation chart for the Zhents
Yeah almost a quarter of the book is prestige classes. :( They could have cut them down and added more FR lore.... oh well. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2005 : 06:08:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I do gotta say that it's nice to for once be the person who has the book in hand, instead of being the person who's waiting for it. 
The latter has happened far too many times... I believe this is the first time the former has happened.. 
Yes, yes... you really do enjoy reminding me of that fact, don't you Wooly? 
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2005 : 11:22:28
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I do gotta say that it's nice to for once be the person who has the book in hand, instead of being the person who's waiting for it.
The latter has happened far too many times... I believe this is the first time the former has happened..
Yes, yes... you really do enjoy reminding me of that fact, don't you Wooly?
Oh, hey, Sage, I forgot to mention: I've got the book and you don't! 
...And did I mention that I've already got Champions of Ruin?
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2005 : 11:38:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh, hey, Sage, I forgot to mention: I've got the book and you don't!
...And did I mention that I've already got Champions of Ruin?
You know Ive always wanted to own a pair of Hamster skin slippers
*hides morning Star behind back*
Here Wooly Wooly Wooly! |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2005 : 12:04:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh, hey, Sage, I forgot to mention: I've got the book and you don't!
...And did I mention that I've already got Champions of Ruin?
You know Ive always wanted to own a pair of Hamster skin slippers
*hides morning Star behind back*
Here Wooly Wooly Wooly!
Well met
Mayhaps ye would like to share more thoughts regarding this tome with us, Wooly? 
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Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2005 : 12:41:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh, hey, Sage, I forgot to mention: I've got the book and you don't!
...And did I mention that I've already got Champions of Ruin?
You know Ive always wanted to own a pair of Hamster skin slippers
*hides morning Star behind back*
Here Wooly Wooly Wooly!
Well met
Mayhaps ye would like to share more thoughts regarding this tome with us, Wooly?
Which Tome might that be, "A thousand and one ways to skin a Hamster?"  |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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monch9
Seeker
Poland
67 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2005 : 14:34:40
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quote:
Originally posted by edbonny
4. What are Justice of Weald and Woe and Night Mask Deathbringer PrC's ?? A brief description perhaps ??
Justice of Weald and Woe - 10 level PrC blends the ranger with the assassin - class originated with the Eldreth Veluuthra (should have been called the Manhunter to make it sound more sinister); d8; Avg BAB; special abilities gained every level like sneak attack bonuses and death attack
Ed,
Just a follow up question on this, are there strict pre-reqs for this PRC. Do non-evil characters get to at least use the 1st few levels?
Monch |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2005 : 14:35:02
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Yeah almost a quarter of the book is prestige classes. :( They could have cut them down and added more FR lore.... oh well.
Thank you for posting that information. It will help with my purchasing decision.
SB |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2005 : 15:14:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Actually, now I do have a question...
Of those who have the CoR tome, which PrC that was included do you each feel was the most detailed and well balanced?
I personally like the Black Blood Cultist the best. I've always been a big fan of Deity based PrC's. It is also a way for PC's to play the feral Malar worshipping monster without having them be a lycanthrope, which completely destroys game balance.
The Justice of Weald and Woe is a little on the weak side in my eyes. It has good role-play value if you play an elven manhunter but I think a PC would be better of with Ranger or Ranger/Assassin. The spell list isn't nearly as good as the assassins and Death Attack doesn't come until 10th level. It also has archery based prerequisites, yet death attack can only be used in melee. |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2005 : 15:18:31
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quote:
Originally posted by monch9
quote:
Originally posted by edbonny
4. What are Justice of Weald and Woe and Night Mask Deathbringer PrC's ?? A brief description perhaps ??
Justice of Weald and Woe - 10 level PrC blends the ranger with the assassin - class originated with the Eldreth Veluuthra (should have been called the Manhunter to make it sound more sinister); d8; Avg BAB; special abilities gained every level like sneak attack bonuses and death attack
Ed,
Just a follow up question on this, are there strict pre-reqs for this PRC. Do non-evil characters get to at least use the 1st few levels?
Monch
Pre-reqs are BAB +6, Point Blank Shot, Longbow Focus, and 8 rans in the following skills... Craft (bowmaking), Hide, Knowledge (nature), Move Silently, and Survival.
So, you do not need to be evil at all for this class. Which I guess is a good way for non-evil PC's to play the assassin type....although I think most DM's rule that assassins don't need to be evil. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2005 : 17:21:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wil_Upchurch
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Umm didnt we get an Intiate of Loviator in Shining south?
Indeed we did. It's on pg. 20  .
Hey, to be fair, I couldn't have known that when I wrote it. :)
And I'll claim credit for making sure there weren't two versions of the Initiate of Loviatar feat. ;-)
I'll also forewarn you that the Initiate of Shar feat will also appear in City of Splendors: Waterdeep. Again, another instance of concurrent design.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2005 : 17:39:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Are there any Web Enhancements for CoR?
Soon ...
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
Edited by - ericlboyd on 09 May 2005 21:22:47 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2005 : 17:44:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh, hey, Sage, I forgot to mention: I've got the book and you don't!
...And did I mention that I've already got Champions of Ruin?
You know Ive always wanted to own a pair of Hamster skin slippers
*hides morning Star behind back*
Here Wooly Wooly Wooly!
Well met
Mayhaps ye would like to share more thoughts regarding this tome with us, Wooly?
I've not had much time for reading it, thus far. I've read up to and thru the feats, and some of them, like Lingering Spell, seem pretty nifty. I did do a double-check to make sure that not all of the feats were evil, because of that one and a couple others that I really liked.
The new races section was kinda disappointing, though. I like the fact that the races got a lot more of a write-up than what we've seen in other books, but the races in question just didn't interest me. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2005 : 23:17:41
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So here's something else that was kinda cool: some of the armor special properties have a lore section that explains how the armor property first appeared in the Realms.
And there's an artifact, the Gray Portrait, that finally explains to me how it is that Dick Clark hasn't aged in the last 50 years. |
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The Blue Sorceress
Learned Scribe
107 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 00:19:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And there's an artifact, the Gray Portrait, that finally explains to me how it is that Dick Clark hasn't aged in the last 50 years.
Sounds like it was taken from The Picture of Dorian Gray.
-Blue |
Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.
I see your walrus and raise you a carpenter |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 01:08:04
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quote:
Originally posted by The Blue Sorceress
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And there's an artifact, the Gray Portrait, that finally explains to me how it is that Dick Clark hasn't aged in the last 50 years.
Sounds like it was taken from The Picture of Dorian Gray.
-Blue
Are there any other items or artifacts of moral decadence inside CoR, Wooly?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 01:11:16
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quote:
Originally posted by The Blue Sorceress
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And there's an artifact, the Gray Portrait, that finally explains to me how it is that Dick Clark hasn't aged in the last 50 years.
Sounds like it was taken from The Picture of Dorian Gray.
-Blue
Indeed, that's essentially what it is. I just had to work in a joke, and hey, making jokes about the fact that Dick Clark is about 173 years old is always a good thing. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 01:11:43
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quote:
Originally posted by The SageAre there any other items or artifacts of moral decadence inside CoR, Wooly?
Nope just that one since that chapter is only 3 pages. They added some more properties but there's only one magical item listed. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 01:23:47
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by The Blue Sorceress
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And there's an artifact, the Gray Portrait, that finally explains to me how it is that Dick Clark hasn't aged in the last 50 years.
Sounds like it was taken from The Picture of Dorian Gray.
-Blue
Are there any other items or artifacts of moral decadence inside CoR, Wooly?
Surprisingly, the magical item section is small. After the various properties of weapons and armor (a couple of which are minorly nasty, including one that's clearly inspired by Hoar the Doombringer), there's only a little bit of stuff. One specific weapon (a gauntlet that rips flesh away from opponents), two wondrous items (a 'charming' yet poisonous flower and some powder to sprinkle on an opponent's heart before you eat it), and the Gray Portrait, which is a major artifact.
I've read the first of the PrCs (Black Blood Cultist), and while it doesn't do anything for me, the amount of extra information is great. About a page on playing one, including combat, advancement, and resources, then three-quarters of a page on Black Blood Cultists in the world (organization). A blurb on NPC reactions, a hair over a column of Lore and Cultists in the Game, and then a couple sample ones. So that's roughly 4 solid pages on one PrC -- and it looks like the rest have write-ups of similar length, too.
Sadly, that's longer than the write-ups that Evil Organizations receive, and ditto for the Champions of Evil chapter -- both of those chapters appear to have three pages per section. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 01:53:42
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I am really enjoying Champions of Ruin, it is a fine book. Although my joy is tempered with a little sadness. And this is not a criticism, per se, but a lament perhaps for a lost opportunity. I was really hoping for some more planar lore.
I had my expectations building for the past year with such hints that Malkizid, Bazim-Gorag, and the Elder Eternal Evils were to be included that we might see some new information about the planes. I think someone had even said on the boards that FR specific planar touchstones would be included, and it really got my hopes up.
Champions of Ruin would have been the perfect place to include some evil planar locales, perhaps evil godly realms, or some hints about such unique FR planes as the Blood Rift, the Barrens of Doom and Despair or Fury's Heart.
I thought for sure that with Bazim-Gorag in there we might find out about the heirachy of the FR slaadi, something about the Supreme Throne or how the Slaad lords relate to one another, and how things might have shaken out among the slaadi while B-G has been imprisoned. But his entry is suprisingly mute on such subjects.
There are a few interesting planar tidbits in the Malkizid and Eltab sections for sure, and those were great. And this is not to knock anything the designers wrote, because it is a wonderful book, really. I was just a little bit disappointed that they did not take the opportunity to flesh out the unique FR cosmos a little bit more, especially since this would have been an ideal book to do that in, and the only chance we were likely to see for a year or so.
So in conclusion, I got my hopes up a little too high and they got pretty much dashed expecting planar lore that wasn't to be found within, however kudos to the authors of Champions of Ruin for an otherwise fun and excellent addition to the FR library. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 02:28:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I am really enjoying Champions of Ruin, it is a fine book. Although my joy is tempered with a little sadness. And this is not a criticism, per se, but a lament perhaps for a lost opportunity. I was really hoping for some more planar lore.
I had my expectations building for the past year with such hints that Malkizid, Bazim-Gorag, and the Elder Eternal Evils were to be included that we might see some new information about the planes. I think someone had even said on the boards that FR specific planar touchstones would be included, and it really got my hopes up.
Champions of Ruin would have been the perfect place to include some evil planar locales, perhaps evil godly realms, or some hints about such unique FR planes as the Blood Rift, the Barrens of Doom and Despair or Fury's Heart.
I thought for sure that with Bazim-Gorag in there we might find out about the heirachy of the FR slaadi, something about the Supreme Throne or how the Slaad lords relate to one another, and how things might have shaken out among the slaadi while B-G has been imprisoned. But his entry is suprisingly mute on such subjects.
There are a few interesting planar tidbits in the Malkizid and Eltab sections for sure, and those were great. And this is not to knock anything the designers wrote, because it is a wonderful book, really. I was just a little bit disappointed that they did not take the opportunity to flesh out the unique FR cosmos a little bit more, especially since this would have been an ideal book to do that in, and the only chance we were likely to see for a year or so.
So in conclusion, I got my hopes up a little too high and they got pretty much dashed expecting planar lore that wasn't to be found within, however kudos to the authors of Champions of Ruin for an otherwise fun and excellent addition to the FR library.
Like you Gray, I had (have) high FR planar hopes for this tome as well. But, judging from your review of the general FR planar content of CoR, I'll likely see my previous hopes dashed as well.
However, looking over your other comments, I can see that some of my other expectations have been, at least partially, realised. I am looking forward to the details on Eltab in particular.
As for the detailing of planar locales... well, I was hoping that they would receive a little attention, especially the Blood Rift, since it is such a *crucial* element for the fiendish planes. What about the actual planar holdings or domains for each of the "Champions of Evil"? Do they receive any significant detailing, perhaps in relation to where they are and who rules them?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 03:14:21
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I just finished reading thru the PrCs... And I have a complaint.
A lot of the PrCs I could easily see being used in a variety of different ways. But this book narrows them down to very specific roles, and further mandates that the character be evil.
Now, I can see some tightening down of the focus, but not as much as they've done. The Vengeance Knight, for example, could be used by a lot more groups than just the Knights of the Shield. And Thayan gladiators could be used in any evil society, I think, instead of being limited to Thay.
The alignment thing bugs me, too. I see absolutely no reason to require that Shade Hunters (a kind of FR Indiana Jones) be evil, and there's little in the full write-up to support more than just a tendency to be selfish. A Thayan gladiator could easily be a neutral person/critter just trying to stay alive... And the Justice of Weald and Woe, while not specifically required to be evil, is described as being something only the Eldreth Veluuthra have. But I can easily picture non-EV Justices, and, depending on how it was done, they could even be a champion of the elven people, rather than someone who does elven dirty work. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 03:21:49
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quote:
As for the detailing of planar locales... well, I was hoping that they would receive a little attention, especially the Blood Rift, since it is such a *crucial* element for the fiendish planes. What about the actual planar holdings or domains for each of the "Champions of Evil"? Do they receive any significant detailing, perhaps in relation to where they are and who rules them?
Eltab's layer to some extent. A couple of sentences about Dendar's lair, though nothing really new, if I recall. That's about it. It almost seems like they excised planar content where it might have otherwise been found.
Don't get me wrong though, I don't mean to put you off the book at all. What the book does very well, among other things, and what I am particularly enamoured of, is the characters. The book is chock full of NPC's you can drop wholecloth into your campaign. Stats backed up with flavor text that makes the many, many champions and supporting characters to be found in the book realized in a wonderful, three-dimensional way.
The book has immediate utility for any DM, with richly envisioned characters amid their Faerunian lairs and environs. Many of the NPC's have planar origins or ties, so that is very nice, it would just have been nicer to include some info about the planes they came from. |
Edited by - Gray Richardson on 10 May 2005 03:24:54 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 04:38:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Don't get me wrong though, I don't mean to put you off the book at all.
Oh, you didn't... as such . It was just a little disappointing to here what you'd written about the planar content.
quote:
What the book does very well, among other things, and what I am particularly enamoured of, is the characters. The book is chock full of NPC's you can drop wholecloth into your campaign. Stats backed up with flavor text that makes the many, many champions and supporting characters to be found in the book realized in a wonderful, three-dimensional way.
As long as the flavor text is (relatively) consistent with previously existing material and is detailed enough to be Realms-specific, I'll consider it a fair trade-off .
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Wil_Upchurch
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 04:48:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I just finished reading thru the PrCs... And I have a complaint.
A lot of the PrCs I could easily see being used in a variety of different ways. But this book narrows them down to very specific roles, and further mandates that the character be evil.
Now, I can see some tightening down of the focus, but not as much as they've done. The Vengeance Knight, for example, could be used by a lot more groups than just the Knights of the Shield. And Thayan gladiators could be used in any evil society, I think, instead of being limited to Thay.
Prestige classes are meant to be very specific, and tied to the setting...it's one of their primary design elements. That said, what's to stop you from using the classes in different ways? At their core, the game mechanics aren't tied to any organization, so they could be used to describe pretty much any similar role. This being a Realms product, though, you shouldn't be surprised that the PrCs in the book are specifically integrated into the setting. :) |
Wil Upchurch
15th-Level Freelancer
magewebmaster@yahoo.com |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 06:07:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wil_Upchurch
Prestige classes are meant to be very specific, and tied to the setting...it's one of their primary design elements. That said, what's to stop you from using the classes in different ways? At their core, the game mechanics aren't tied to any organization, so they could be used to describe pretty much any similar role. This being a Realms product, though, you shouldn't be surprised that the PrCs in the book are specifically integrated into the setting. :)
I'm not bothered by the PrCs being tied to the setting, that's something I want. What bothers me is that they are tied to small sections of the setting. To use one of my earlier examples, the Thayan gladiator could work in just about any evil/decadent society, such as Zhentil Keep. I don't see why it had to be tied to just the Thayans. Ditto for the Vengeance Knights and the Knights of the Shield -- no other evil groups want armored enforcers? And the Justice of Weald and Woe could be used by any pro-elven group; though the Eldreth Veluuthra is an obvious choice, they're not the only bunch of elves that's interested in keeping humans out of their woods.
To use an automotive analogy, I was looking for Chevy accessories -- not just accessories for a 2000 Corvette ZR1, but for all (or at least most) modern Chevies. |
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Wil_Upchurch
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
45 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 06:11:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not bothered by the PrCs being tied to the setting, that's something I want. What bothers me is that they are tied to small sections of the setting. To use one of my earlier examples, the Thayan gladiator could work in just about any evil/decadent society, such as Zhentil Keep. I don't see why it had to be tied to just the Thayans. Ditto for the Vengeance Knights and the Knights of the Shield -- no other evil groups want armored enforcers? And the Justice of Weald and Woe could be used by any pro-elven group; though the Eldreth Veluuthra is an obvious choice, they're not the only bunch of elves that's interested in keeping humans out of their woods.
To use an automotive analogy, I was looking for Chevy accessories -- not just accessories for a 2000 Corvette ZR1, but for all (or at least most) modern Chevies.
I guess I still don't see why you can't use them however you want. :) |
Wil Upchurch
15th-Level Freelancer
magewebmaster@yahoo.com |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2005 : 11:24:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wil_Upchurch
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not bothered by the PrCs being tied to the setting, that's something I want. What bothers me is that they are tied to small sections of the setting. To use one of my earlier examples, the Thayan gladiator could work in just about any evil/decadent society, such as Zhentil Keep. I don't see why it had to be tied to just the Thayans. Ditto for the Vengeance Knights and the Knights of the Shield -- no other evil groups want armored enforcers? And the Justice of Weald and Woe could be used by any pro-elven group; though the Eldreth Veluuthra is an obvious choice, they're not the only bunch of elves that's interested in keeping humans out of their woods.
To use an automotive analogy, I was looking for Chevy accessories -- not just accessories for a 2000 Corvette ZR1, but for all (or at least most) modern Chevies.
I guess I still don't see why you can't use them however you want. :)
Oh, I can... But I still was bothered by seeing PrCs be so tightly tied to specific groups when they could have been more widely used.
Can you tell me why the Shade hunter is evil? That requirement is the one that bugged me the most. |
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Champions of Ruin sourcebook
