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Gellion
Learned Scribe
140 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 23:00:11
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Well, a topic over at WOTC about killing Mystra or Shar brought me to thinking about this. IMC, a group of level sixteen PCs could kill even a greater deity if they REALLY dared to do so. Meaning that if there was good RPing, and thinking and if it made for a good story, then I woud let them kill even a greater deity.
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"Paladine, you see the evil that surrounds me! You have been witness to the calamities that have been the scourge of Krynn... You must see now that this doctrine of balance will not work! I can sweep evil from this land. Destroy the ogre races. Bring the wayward humans into line! Find new homelands far away for the dwarves and the kender and the gnomes, those races not of your creation... I demand that you give me, too, the power to drive away the shadows of evil that darken the land!"- THE REIGN OF ISTAR, Tales IV |
Edited by - Gellion on 06 Nov 2004 23:01:04
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 01:14:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Gellion
Well, a topic over at WOTC about killing Mystra or Shar brought me to thinking about this. IMC, a group of level sixteen PCs could kill even a greater deity if they REALLY dared to do so. Meaning that if there was good RPing, and thinking and if it made for a good story, then I woud let them kill even a greater deity.
Will any of these potential god slayers be utilizing moonblades? |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 01:39:04
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Will any of these potential god slayers be utilizing moonblades?
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Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Gellion
Learned Scribe
140 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 04:26:05
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Gellion
Well, a topic over at WOTC about killing Mystra or Shar brought me to thinking about this. IMC, a group of level sixteen PCs could kill even a greater deity if they REALLY dared to do so. Meaning that if there was good RPing, and thinking and if it made for a good story, then I woud let them kill even a greater deity.
Will any of these potential god slayers be utilizing moonblades?
Probably not, are Moonbaldes just really powerful or something like that? |
"Paladine, you see the evil that surrounds me! You have been witness to the calamities that have been the scourge of Krynn... You must see now that this doctrine of balance will not work! I can sweep evil from this land. Destroy the ogre races. Bring the wayward humans into line! Find new homelands far away for the dwarves and the kender and the gnomes, those races not of your creation... I demand that you give me, too, the power to drive away the shadows of evil that darken the land!"- THE REIGN OF ISTAR, Tales IV |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 04:42:02
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Before I even get into a lengthy discussion about how completely bizarre this idea actually is, I must first ask how these PCs actually intend to KILL these deities when they are at their most POWERFUL, in their respective home domains?
Even with 16th-level characters... I find this highly unlikely  .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Gellion
Learned Scribe
140 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 04:52:54
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Before I even get into a lengthy discussion about how completely bizarre this idea actually is, I must first ask how these PCs actually intend to KILL these deities when they are at their most POWERFUL, in their respective home domains?
Even with 16th-level characters... I find this highly unlikely .
Cause if it enhances the story then I will let them do it.
They are eigth level now and they have already went into the future and defeated a Wizard who unleashed demons on the entire world, and they have also fought a crazy Elven Cleric who took over a large Elven city in the High Forest and was killing all those he deemed unworthy. The Cleric apperaed a shining figure of light to them, and they never saw his body. They also had to escape from the city because with his last breath he had it fall into the ground.
Anyways, what I said at first is why I would let them. |
"Paladine, you see the evil that surrounds me! You have been witness to the calamities that have been the scourge of Krynn... You must see now that this doctrine of balance will not work! I can sweep evil from this land. Destroy the ogre races. Bring the wayward humans into line! Find new homelands far away for the dwarves and the kender and the gnomes, those races not of your creation... I demand that you give me, too, the power to drive away the shadows of evil that darken the land!"- THE REIGN OF ISTAR, Tales IV |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 16:56:53
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i find it highly unlikely this could occur, 16th level or not...unless of course moonblades were in effect, right sirius |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 17:37:55
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Level 16 adventurers? Maybe if they were all armed with Scepters of Sorcerers-King and Swords of God-Slaying. Lol.
I really don't think it's possible for them, when even characters of epic levels cannot defeat a deity. How can a group of adventurers slay someone like Mystra, when she could kill a million devils with a wave of her hands?
BTW, at eighth level the party has already defeated "a Wizard who unleashed demons on the entire world" and "a crazy Elven Cleric who took over a large Elven city"? These type of quests are usually reserved for say... around LEVEL SIXTEEN. I remember playing at 8th level and still had to go rescue the farmer's daughter from ogres. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Gellion
Learned Scribe
140 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 20:11:10
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Level 16 adventurers? Maybe if they were all armed with Scepters of Sorcerers-King and Swords of God-Slaying. Lol.
I really don't think it's possible for them, when even characters of epic levels cannot defeat a deity. How can a group of adventurers slay someone like Mystra, when she could kill a million devils with a wave of her hands?
BTW, at eighth level the party has already defeated "a Wizard who unleashed demons on the entire world" and "a crazy Elven Cleric who took over a large Elven city"? These type of quests are usually reserved for say... around LEVEL SIXTEEN. I remember playing at 8th level and still had to go rescue the farmer's daughter from ogres.
I think that the PCs do not have to be high level to do great things. As for the deity, it would not neccessarily be Mystra. Maybe Ghaurander goes even more crazy than he already is one day and finds and artifact that will let him turn the whole world to slime. Then if the PCs RPed good and really tried hard, then they would be able to defeat him. |
"Paladine, you see the evil that surrounds me! You have been witness to the calamities that have been the scourge of Krynn... You must see now that this doctrine of balance will not work! I can sweep evil from this land. Destroy the ogre races. Bring the wayward humans into line! Find new homelands far away for the dwarves and the kender and the gnomes, those races not of your creation... I demand that you give me, too, the power to drive away the shadows of evil that darken the land!"- THE REIGN OF ISTAR, Tales IV |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 21:03:46
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i think you underestimate the power of a god  |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 21:51:34
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
How can a group of adventurers slay someone like Mystra, when she could kill a million devils with a wave of her hands?
Because a DM wishes it to happen in his/her campaign despite how illogical it might seem. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 23:28:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Gellion
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Level 16 adventurers? Maybe if they were all armed with Scepters of Sorcerers-King and Swords of God-Slaying. Lol.
I really don't think it's possible for them, when even characters of epic levels cannot defeat a deity. How can a group of adventurers slay someone like Mystra, when she could kill a million devils with a wave of her hands?
BTW, at eighth level the party has already defeated "a Wizard who unleashed demons on the entire world" and "a crazy Elven Cleric who took over a large Elven city"? These type of quests are usually reserved for say... around LEVEL SIXTEEN. I remember playing at 8th level and still had to go rescue the farmer's daughter from ogres.
I think that the PCs do not have to be high level to do great things. As for the deity, it would not neccessarily be Mystra. Maybe Ghaurander goes even more crazy than he already is one day and finds and artifact that will let him turn the whole world to slime. Then if the PCs RPed good and really tried hard, then they would be able to defeat him.
A 16th-level party of adventurers should have trouble defeating mortals, let alone taking on gods like Ghaundaur. Ghaundaur may go into fits of rage, but he isn't stupid. Unless you decide to lower Ghaundaur's stats to that of a goblin, he cannot be killed through such means. Yes, you can kill a deity if you want, but don't expect it to be done through the usual, "march into a dungeon/cave/castle and slay the monster with swords and spells" method. Unless you have divine aid, most mortals cannot even harm a god. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 23:50:23
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| if it is wished to be done by a dm then let the dm have his way...as long as the rest of us are aware that it is not something that would happen so easily...im not saying it is not possible for a group of mortals to kill a god, but it would require great assistance from some sort of divin being and the god to be in a particularily vulnerable state |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2004 : 23:56:34
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Many people mistake the stats given for the gods to be their entire potential power. Think about it: would you assault the tower of an archmage, where he keeps his greatest scrolls, staves, misc items of vast destruction? I think not. Take that and multiply it by a thousand. Aside from the nigh-limitless celestial/fiendish servants of the god(dess), you have to confront a being that has enough power to supply many epic-level clerics with spells. If 16th level chars could do this, why haven't dragons, sharn, phaerimm, shadowmasters or any of a dozen other ubermonsters slain all the deities by now? A great wyrm alone outmatches most 16th level parties, and they don't go up against gods. So, unless you plan on handing your players victory by means of some sort of artifact or have another god with you (not in spirit, but in his I'm-too-godly-for-my-shirt-do-my-little-turn-on-the-catwalk self) there's pretty much no chance. Sorry  |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Gellion
Learned Scribe
140 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 00:35:33
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| They defeated the Elven Cleric with a bit of help from a NPC, although she did not actually fight with them. Basically what she did was help them realize the power they had with in them, not the power of the gods, but the power that all races inherently posess, the power that surpasses all boundaries of race and language. They were able to use this to break his the Cleric's shield around him. Which let them damage him normally. I even had a bit of foreshadwoing in that the NPC Human female Cleric, whose power stems from her belive in all the races of Toril, said that the power they used to defeat the Cleric might one day be used again. |
"Paladine, you see the evil that surrounds me! You have been witness to the calamities that have been the scourge of Krynn... You must see now that this doctrine of balance will not work! I can sweep evil from this land. Destroy the ogre races. Bring the wayward humans into line! Find new homelands far away for the dwarves and the kender and the gnomes, those races not of your creation... I demand that you give me, too, the power to drive away the shadows of evil that darken the land!"- THE REIGN OF ISTAR, Tales IV |
Edited by - Gellion on 08 Nov 2004 00:53:52 |
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Kitira Gildragon
Learned Scribe
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 01:05:38
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Alright, my two cp:
I am an avid lover of story, freeform RPGs and the like. Although in some RPGs I've played, story was lost because of stats, in D&D they are there for a reason. As was said, 8th level characters are NOT ready to take on a god.
My mentor had a group of 15th level characters who claimed they could take on a dragon- not only were they routed, but even though they fled into the night, the dragon landed on the survivors, killing them instantly. Mind you, this same dragon used its breath weapon only once, and used less than three spells in the original assault.
To take on a god at such a low level implies strong munchkinism, to my mind, a 'modifying' of stats, or something of that nature. As a mod for some rpgs, I'm quite against it, and I feel that it takes away from a story- not adding something. IMO, these PCs will get the idea that they can take on anyone so long as their RPing is "well done"- there is no need to fear death, and provides a safety net. As a DM, it is nice to see a story progress, but if there isn't the fear of dying something is lost; the characters are mortal, they should feel it and know that death and/or ruin is waiting around every corner. Besides, once you've touched the stars, how much further can you go? The characters will have ended any further chance to evolve and will not be able to adventure without feeling like other things are a challenge- they'd need to become retired.
(Unless you have them head for Ao himself...x_x Let's not even go there)
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-Space for rent- |
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Gellion
Learned Scribe
140 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 01:25:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Kitira Gildragon
Alright, my two cp:
I am an avid lover of story, freeform RPGs and the like. Although in some RPGs I've played, story was lost because of stats, in D&D they are there for a reason. As was said, 8th level characters are NOT ready to take on a god.
My mentor had a group of 15th level characters who claimed they could take on a dragon- not only were they routed, but even though they fled into the night, the dragon landed on the survivors, killing them instantly. Mind you, this same dragon used its breath weapon only once, and used less than three spells in the original assault.
To take on a god at such a low level implies strong munchkinism, to my mind, a 'modifying' of stats, or something of that nature. As a mod for some rpgs, I'm quite against it, and I feel that it takes away from a story- not adding something. IMO, these PCs will get the idea that they can take on anyone so long as their RPing is "well done"- there is no need to fear death, and provides a safety net. As a DM, it is nice to see a story progress, but if there isn't the fear of dying something is lost; the characters are mortal, they should feel it and know that death and/or ruin is waiting around every corner. Besides, once you've touched the stars, how much further can you go? The characters will have ended any further chance to evolve and will not be able to adventure without feeling like other things are a challenge- they'd need to become retired.
(Unless you have them head for Ao himself...x_x Let's not even go there)
Well, the defeating of the deity would probably be the finale of said campaign.
Heh, and they have had a PC die before even though he did RP good. Got buried under tons of rubble. |
"Paladine, you see the evil that surrounds me! You have been witness to the calamities that have been the scourge of Krynn... You must see now that this doctrine of balance will not work! I can sweep evil from this land. Destroy the ogre races. Bring the wayward humans into line! Find new homelands far away for the dwarves and the kender and the gnomes, those races not of your creation... I demand that you give me, too, the power to drive away the shadows of evil that darken the land!"- THE REIGN OF ISTAR, Tales IV |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 05:24:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
A great wyrm alone outmatches most 16th level parties, and they don't go up against gods.
excellent point |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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Shearre
Acolyte
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 06:43:08
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I think what's needed here is a little thinking outside of the box. Sure, a non-epic party that tries to take on a god directly will get pasted, but the key word here is directly. Anyone remember the demise of Baldur from norse myth? or any of the good self-fulfilling prophecies from Greek mythology?
Perhaps there's some ancient prophecy that dictates that Bob, god of eeeeevil will be slain when the sword he used to slay the previous god of eeeeevil is reforged (said sword would of course be an uber-artefact designed specifically to slay the god of eeeeevil). Or perhaps, when taking the mantle of god of eeeeevil, Bob swore to Ao on his life that he would ensure that the Rod of Ultimate Goodness (tm) be forever sealed beneath generic death mountain #237 so that the balance would be preserved, and if the rod were ever to be recovered Bob would be unmade?
Minus my pathetic attempts at humour (hey I just got up okay ), I reckon you could spin a convincing campaign around similar sorts of ideas. The trick is to find alternative ways of ensuring a god's destruction other than by killing them in a straight fight. |
Edited by - Shearre on 08 Nov 2004 07:00:50 |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 07:01:26
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Mmm.
If this were a story, and the DM is the author, I'd be accusing the author of creating "author's darlings" characters. There's a line between "bend some rules to tell a good story" and "Let's rape the rules and warp reality. Who cares about logic? I want the characters to be rampaging, god-moding uber-munchskins, teeheehee!" I don't call it "thinking outside the box" so much as "randomly pulling stilted, hackneyed deus ex machina out of the hat." Especially this bit:
quote:
Basically what she did was help them realize the power they had with in them, not the power of the gods, but the power that all races inherently posess, the power that surpasses all boundaries of race and language. They were able to use this to break his the Cleric's shield around him. Which let them damage him normally. I even had a bit of foreshadwoing in that the NPC Human female Cleric, whose power stems from her belive in all the races of Toril, said that the power they used to defeat the Cleric might one day be used again.
...to which I can only say: what the bleeding, screaming hell? It might just be me, and I may be ignorant of the context/background of what's transpired prior in the campaign, but this doesn't make one bit of sense to me. For that matter, it also looks like an obvious plot device that transcends all established lore, laws, and so on.
It's your campaign. Do whatever you want, but if you're asking other people's opinions, this is what you'll get. Sixteenth-level characters taking on a god? Hur hur hur. Maybe if you saturate them with hallucinogens and make them think they're taking on and defeating a divine entity. |
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Shearre
Acolyte
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 07:38:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
I don't call it "thinking outside the box" so much as "randomly pulling stilted, hackneyed deus ex machina out of the hat."
I guess, but I'd contend that there's nothing wrong with a little deus ex machina as long as it's delivered well. I mean the mistletoe in aforementioned Norse myth is deus ex machina, so is Achilles' heel or even the conveniently target sized ventilation shaft on the Death Star, that doesn't mean the respective stories they originated from were any less epic for it.
If the PCs are going to accomplish something that's beyond their level of power, there has to be some form of plot device that will allow them to do this, whether it's the stereotypical Achilles heel/one weakness, or something a little more grandiose. (For instance, maybe the PCs could find some way to destroy the god's mortal following or if you want to think really big, find some way to turn the belief of every living thing in Faerun against said god. Since, as I understand it, faith is the route of a god's power in the Realms, it makes a useful potential weakness to exploit)
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 09:48:16
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| Guh. Stupid, stupid me. Ignore this post. |
Edited by - Winterfox on 09 Nov 2004 01:18:25 |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 11:41:51
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Look, while I don't buy a 16th level group(or any mere mortals for that matter) taking on a god directly and winning... I do buy them defeatign the god in such a way as they are destroyed through non direct means.
I am reminded of an old story I once read about dragon slayers, and instead of facign the beast in direct combat, they laid traps for it, crushing it with rocks from above as it exited it's cave. In another, they fed it a sheep whose gullet hasd been stuffed with poisoned mushrooms, and other similiar stories.
Tales abound with people using their wits to overcome foes far their superior in "honorable" combat. And while I know a God(for gods' sake) is a bit more than a dragon, but the same might hold true.
For an epic campaign(and I do not mean epic level) to culminate with the defeat of a god is fine, and could be highly enjoyable for all involved. But it would be through non conventional means, using plot items and various powerful allies and fulfilling ancient prophecies to defeat the deity... if not outright kill it.
Ancient prophecies fulfilled, relics from teh past returned to the present, items of untold power, et cetera... all could allow players to defeat gods.
Thing is, it isn't believable. But neither is most of what happens in DnD, and mere human fighters able to fall from a low orbit and survive on a regular basis is damned sure not realistic. Sometimes, we must not let reality get in the way of our having fun, and telling an enjoyable story.
However... there is a line, here. A group of heroes cutting dow na god on it's home plane, (and at only 16th levle) is just not believable at all to me, no amount of suspended disbelief could make me buy that.
However, this has the caveat of the players being all given "uber godly weapons of vorpal deity slaying rules bending mind numbing madness" given to them for this express purpose, which I frown on as well.
I am forced to remember the last days of Xena, wherin she massacres the gods... If the FR gods were more like the Greek gods portrayed there, I would buy it, they were just extremely powerful beings, not truly omniscient at all, and just as petty and full of baseless pride as mortals. A faerunian deity is more, well, godlike... like a "real" god.
If one scraps the way gods are portrayed in the existing lore for one more similiar to the way they areportrayed in reek mythology, or perhaps, "Raimian" greek mythology, it might work, and be a very enjoyable campaign, of course they would need a godslaying gimmick. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
Edited by - Capn Charlie on 08 Nov 2004 11:48:29 |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 16:54:49
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A balor could paralyze a 16th level party and wipe them out if played properly.
Saying that, the lowest level god in the pantheon would wipe out a 16th level party before they even had their bags packed to start out the journey to go kill the god.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36874 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 18:11:54
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I'm going with the general consensus, here. Even the weakest gods could wipe out a bunch of 16th-level characters with just an avatar... Add in their clerics and any critters the avatar might summon, or allies of the deity... Grab the dice, it's time to roll up new characters!
Even if the entire party was made of Mystra's Chosen, I just don't see this one happening. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Gellion
Learned Scribe
140 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 22:57:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
Mmm.
If this were a story, and the DM is the author, I'd be accusing the author of creating "author's darlings" characters. There's a line between "bend some rules to tell a good story" and "Let's rape the rules and warp reality. Who cares about logic? I want the characters to be rampaging, god-moding uber-munchskins, teeheehee!" I don't call it "thinking outside the box" so much as "randomly pulling stilted, hackneyed deus ex machina out of the hat." Especially this bit:
quote:
Basically what she did was help them realize the power they had with in them, not the power of the gods, but the power that all races inherently posess, the power that surpasses all boundaries of race and language. They were able to use this to break his the Cleric's shield around him. Which let them damage him normally. I even had a bit of foreshadwoing in that the NPC Human female Cleric, whose power stems from her belive in all the races of Toril, said that the power they used to defeat the Cleric might one day be used again.
...to which I can only say: what the bleeding, screaming hell? It might just be me, and I may be ignorant of the context/background of what's transpired prior in the campaign, but this doesn't make one bit of sense to me. For that matter, it also looks like an obvious plot device that transcends all established lore, laws, and so on.
It's your campaign. Do whatever you want, but if you're asking other people's opinions, this is what you'll get. Sixteenth-level characters taking on a god? Hur hur hur. Maybe if you saturate them with hallucinogens and make them think they're taking on and defeating a divine entity.
Heh, it may have been a plot device, but all of the players had a lot of fun and really enjoyed the session. So what is wrong with that? |
"Paladine, you see the evil that surrounds me! You have been witness to the calamities that have been the scourge of Krynn... You must see now that this doctrine of balance will not work! I can sweep evil from this land. Destroy the ogre races. Bring the wayward humans into line! Find new homelands far away for the dwarves and the kender and the gnomes, those races not of your creation... I demand that you give me, too, the power to drive away the shadows of evil that darken the land!"- THE REIGN OF ISTAR, Tales IV |
Edited by - Gellion on 08 Nov 2004 23:11:17 |
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Kitira Gildragon
Learned Scribe
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 23:16:32
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Nothing... if you have no issue with bending the rules in such a totaly insane way. If you're going to do something like that, you may as well make it totally freeform and just storybased- beause you're already ignoring stats and the like.
As Winterfox said (and I'm rather sure everyone else on this thread is more than likely to agree) it's your campaign, and your players agree to it, but you're really gyping yourselves in doing so. |
-Space for rent- |
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Gellion
Learned Scribe
140 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2004 : 01:24:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Kitira Gildragon
Nothing... if you have no issue with bending the rules in such a totaly insane way. If you're going to do something like that, you may as well make it totally freeform and just storybased- beause you're already ignoring stats and the like.
As Winterfox said (and I'm rather sure everyone else on this thread is more than likely to agree) it's your campaign, and your players agree to it, but you're really gyping yourselves in doing so.
We do follow the rules most of the time. It is just that every once in a while I like to bend them, sometimes A LOT. |
"Paladine, you see the evil that surrounds me! You have been witness to the calamities that have been the scourge of Krynn... You must see now that this doctrine of balance will not work! I can sweep evil from this land. Destroy the ogre races. Bring the wayward humans into line! Find new homelands far away for the dwarves and the kender and the gnomes, those races not of your creation... I demand that you give me, too, the power to drive away the shadows of evil that darken the land!"- THE REIGN OF ISTAR, Tales IV |
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Zorro
Seeker
Germany
82 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2004 : 15:43:38
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Oh well, the stuff bad novels and movies are made of...
If TSR hadn't published stats for the gods in ancient times – which made me laugh heartily back then, since I had a feeling where that would lead –, no one would come up with this idea and be taken seriously nowadays. Admittedly some hi-octane campaign settings (and of course all too many novels in which no less than the fate of the world is at stake) encourage players to set this goal for themselves, but that neither means that it's in itself any good, nor that it's atmospheric – which IMHO it is decidedly not. "Give it stats, and players will wanna kill it", as the old saying goes.
Frankly, any novel or movie in which the climax consists of a couple of heroes killing off a god would hardly stir my interest – let alone an adventure. I guess dragons, demons and devils just don't do anymore. There are so incredibly many challenges the Realms have to offer, yet it has to be a god that's to be faced. Honestly, how can a divine being, a source of magic for thousands over thousands of spellcasters all over the setting to whom it grants spells, miracles and what have you, a being that, sometimes with, sometimes against multiple other gods, steers the fate of the setting, be reduced to stats which happen to be on a scale that can be reached by mere mortals?
Anyway, if we're talking about the naked rules, your party would have to be on a considerably higher level to even think about such a venture. But if we're talking about atmosphere and a minimum of believability you have to fill the Realms with, forget about the mysterious cleric which just has to tell the adventurers that they have to believe in themselves, and – poof! – anything becomes possible, and what's more, forget about the soon-to-fall-prey-to-the-party god. It just might lessen your experience of immersing yourselves in the Realms for years to come.
Just my two coppers.
Zorro |
I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability. - Oscar Wilde |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2004 : 20:25:32
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quote:
But if we're talking about atmosphere and a minimum of believability you have to fill the Realms with, forget about the mysterious cleric which just has to tell the adventurers that they have to believe in themselves, and – poof! – anything becomes possible,
I meant to ask about this myself. Just what power was this? A universal spirit or something similar, I believe you stated previously. While this isn't a valid divine power in FR, it's your campaign, so whatever, so long as you give some kind of limit. By what you said, all the party had to do is "believe" and the cleric's defenses fell. Umm....to me this translates into an overly simple method used by a party that needs a slightly ludicrous reason to defeat a foe far beyond their means and couldn't come up with anything better. Unless this
"power" is sentient and able to manifest some sort of avatar-like abilities, it can't just woosh in and win the battle for them. The only way they could access divine magic of any sort is through clerical training, so unless your PCs became clerics of this mysterious, hippy-dippy force(and somehow managed to gain quite a few levels in the class) it's a bit absurd that they could sunder a high cleric's magical shields. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Gellion
Learned Scribe
140 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2004 : 00:47:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
quote:
But if we're talking about atmosphere and a minimum of believability you have to fill the Realms with, forget about the mysterious cleric which just has to tell the adventurers that they have to believe in themselves, and – poof! – anything becomes possible,
I meant to ask about this myself. Just what power was this? A universal spirit or something similar, I believe you stated previously. While this isn't a valid divine power in FR, it's your campaign, so whatever, so long as you give some kind of limit. By what you said, all the party had to do is "believe" and the cleric's defenses fell. Umm....to me this translates into an overly simple method used by a party that needs a slightly ludicrous reason to defeat a foe far beyond their means and couldn't come up with anything better. Unless this
"power" is sentient and able to manifest some sort of avatar-like abilities, it can't just woosh in and win the battle for them. The only way they could access divine magic of any sort is through clerical training, so unless your PCs became clerics of this mysterious, hippy-dippy force(and somehow managed to gain quite a few levels in the class) it's a bit absurd that they could sunder a high cleric's magical shields.
The power IS the power all of the races have inherent in them. It is just that most of them do not realize it. I gathered that the players realized that the power was a possible only a one time thing, but it may pop up again.
They still did have to fight the Cleric even after having his shiled broken, and he still banged them up pretty bad, so it was not an instant win. |
"Paladine, you see the evil that surrounds me! You have been witness to the calamities that have been the scourge of Krynn... You must see now that this doctrine of balance will not work! I can sweep evil from this land. Destroy the ogre races. Bring the wayward humans into line! Find new homelands far away for the dwarves and the kender and the gnomes, those races not of your creation... I demand that you give me, too, the power to drive away the shadows of evil that darken the land!"- THE REIGN OF ISTAR, Tales IV |
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PC power in the Realms
