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Originally posted by Gray Richardson

Which makes me wonder if there are not other hidden racial overgods that work behind the scenes to make sure their favored races gain a foothold in various crystal spheres.

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Originally posted by Magus Rages

Sorry, fellow Scribes for reawakening an old scroll.

I had read through the Avatar Series some time ago and had been wondering about Ao's role in universe of Toril, so these are my questions:
1) If Ao is the master of the gods on Toril, does it mean he has power and authority over the non-Faerunian Pantheons inclusive of the elven, dwarven, halfling, Mulhorandi, The Celestial Beuracracy, The Maztican Pantheon?

2) Ao controls only the universe around and Toril only, right? He has no influence over the oher worlds, so if this is true, it seems that there is a overgod for each world.

3) Also, it was mentioned that Ao's master is a Luminous Being of Light itself, so it appears to me that the Luminous Being seems to be a kind of intermediate or "middle-manager" between the Light and Ao and the other overgods, so what's fellow scribes thought on this matter? Then it appears that the whole Multiverse is created by somebody else other than Ao.

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Originally posted by Kianna

DM = Ao. I like that.

Technically, if those FR pantheons were found in other crystal spheres (say like ones you make up yourself) Ao would then be overlord there as well.

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Originally posted by Kuje

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Originally posted by Kianna

DM = Ao. I like that.

Technically, if those FR pantheons were found in other crystal spheres (say like ones you make up yourself) Ao would then be overlord there as well.

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No, AO's boss = The DM. :)

And no, AO is only for FR's Sphere/Prime. :) He has no interest, and power, outside of that Sphere/Prime.

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Originally posted by Talanfir Swiftfeet

I read the War of the Souls (dragonlance) trilogy, and in the end Paladine (the overgod of good gods) mentions that there is a being that is above him (and no, it's not Chaos). So this is my theory, Ao's boss = dragonlance gods' boss.

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Originally posted by Kuje

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Originally posted by Kianna

DM = Ao. I like that.

Technically, if those FR pantheons were found in other crystal spheres (say like ones you make up yourself) Ao would then be overlord there as well.

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No, AO's boss = The DM. :)

And no, AO is only for FR's Sphere/Prime. :) He has no interest, and power, outside of that Sphere/Prime.

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Originally posted by Kianna

But that doesn't make any sense. Why would Ao rule over the FR gods in Realmspace...but not any other space if that SAME pantheon ruled there as well?

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Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane

Well, that's kind of strange about deities and Overlords - I mean, Lolth only has to pay lip service to Ao in FR world - and then do crazy machinations in the other planes she dwells in. I think it's all just a jumble if Gods rule over more than one plane as it is.

C-Fb

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Originally posted by Kuje

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Originally posted by Kianna

But that doesn't make any sense. Why would Ao rule over the FR gods in Realmspace...but not any other space if that SAME pantheon ruled there as well?

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Because that other sphere/prime might have it's own overpower, which is not AO. AO has no influence on say Mielikki, who was the same Mielikki of the Finnish pantheon, when she is not in Realmspace/that Prime. Only her incarnation in Realmspace/that Prime is under the power of AO. Same with the other deities that were/are multisphereic.

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Originally posted by Kuje

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Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane

Well, that's kind of strange about deities and Overlords - I mean, Lolth only has to pay lip service to Ao in FR world - and then do crazy machinations in the other planes she dwells in. I think it's all just a jumble if Gods rule over more than one plane as it is.

C-Fb

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If you are using 2e's planes, that's right. :) However, the named beings in the new cosmologies are not the same named beings in the other cosmologies. I.E, in 2e Lloth was Lloth everywhere and there was just one. Now Greyhawk's Lloth is not the same Lloth in FR, except that they share the same name.

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D. FORGOTTEN REALMS SUBJECT EXPLANATIONS

1. The Forgotten Realms Cosmology (2ed. To 3ed.)

The following illustrates the changes made to the cosmological model of the planes for the FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign setting from 2e to 3e.

We will begin with the planar framework as it was during the days of 2e. In this model, the cosmology is defined by the existence of only ONE Prime Material Plane and the planar cosmology that connects to it -- referred as the Great Wheel (or Ring). This Prime Material Plane was the basis of the entire AD&D game and followed the framework established by the 1e/2e Manual of the Planes. Along the Great Wheel lay the planes of deities, devils, demons, celestials, and nearly every other strange planar race. These planes could be accessed using the Astral Plane which connected to most Outer Plane locations. Although there was only one Prime Material Plane, the plane itself was considered an INFINITE expanse encompassing thousands of singular planetary systems which were encased in Crystal Spheres (usually defined as a standard system containing all the planets, suns, comets and other planetary phenomena within it). Examples of such Crystal Spheres include the Torilian system, the Krynnish system, the solar system of Oerth and the GREYHAWK campaign setting, and nearly every other AD&D campaign world (special note: the RAVENLOFT setting was actually a demiplane within the Ethereal plane of 2e, along with many other demiplanes). Travel to and from these individual crystal spheres was made possible via a transitive planar-like environment known as the Phlogiston -- PCs could access new Crystal Spheres using a spelljamming helm which made travel on the Phlogiston available to characters.

Also included among the planes of the Great Wheel were the Elemental Planes (or Inner Planes). These planes could be accessed by planar travellers through the Ethereal plane. These planes are very specific environments each of which were based on one of the particular prime elements (earth, air, fire and water) necessary for life. Included with these four prime elemental planes were the Energy Planes -- being the Positive and Negative Energy Planes. The final components of the Elemental Planes were the Para- and Quasi- Elemental Planes, each of which were basic combinations of two inner planes. The Para-Elemental Planes were paired combinations of each of the prime elemental planes, and the Quasi-Elemental Planes were paired combinations of one prime elemental plane and either the Positive or Negative Energy plane. There were six for each category.

With the publishing of the core D&D 3e game system, the cosmology framework was altered. The greatest change was to give each 3e campaign setting a complete and separate a planar cosmology all its own. The Great Wheel would still remain, but would only be connected to the core setting of the D&D game -- that being GREYHAWK. The FORGOTTEN REALMS world was one of the campaign settings to be given its own planar framework (known as the Great Tree [detailed in the Player's Guide to Faerun]) which is actually quite different from most other cosmologies of most campaign worlds. One further change was to give each campaign setting its own Prime Material Plane. As such, the multiverse could potentially contain hundreds, thousands, or even millions of individual Prime Material Planes, each of which would have their own individual planar networks connected to them ONLY. To simplify this a little, this means that there could now be more than one standard version of a deity or plane (for example, there are now hundreds of Seldarine courts each of which are related only to a particular campaign setting), whereas in 2e, the Seldarine on the Great Wheel was the Seldarine that the FORGOTTEN REALMS and GREYHAWK settings could relate to.

The Elemental Planes of the 3e FORGOTTEN REALMS Great Tree cosmology are composed of the four prime Elemental Planes (earth, air, fire and water), the Para-Elemental Planes (see the Kezef entry in Champions of Ruin), and the two Energy Planes (positive and negative).

Aside from all of this, is the case for Sigil, the City of Doors. In the 2e PLANESCAPE campaign setting, the City of Doors rested at the peak of the infinitely tall Spire centred in the Outlands (the basis of the Great Wheel cosmology). In 3e, Sigil does still exist as the City of Doors, but it now occupies a completely separate planar environment all its own inside the Great Wheel of the 3e D&D core cosmology. What is special about this individual plane inside the Great Wheel (and atop the Spire) is that the independent nature of the plane in which Sigil rests allows this Sigil to be the only Sigil in the entire multiverse -- thus, the Sigil of the Great Wheel is also the Sigil of the Great Tree for the FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign setting.

And finally, the Ethereal and Astral Planes allow access to all the planes in the Great Tree -- as does the Shadow Plane (which is now a transitive plane and allows PCs to access alternate Prime Material Planes and their cosmologies). In addition, an expanse known as the Infinite Staircase can also act as a transitive "plane" of sorts that also allows access to other regions of the multiverse. Of special consideration at this point is the fact that a number of the planes of gods from the 2e Great Wheel cosmology have no basis or representation in the 3e Great Tree cosmology of the FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign setting. Also, the original domains of the gods on the planes of the 2e Great Wheel are now recognised as full and proper planes in the 3e Great Tree -- complete and stable environments under the control of the deity that resides there. So basically, the Abyss - as it is conceptualised in the GREYHAWK campaign setting - is NOT the same as the Abyss as conceptualised in the FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign setting.

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Originally posted by Kuje
I.E, in 2e Lloth was Lloth everywhere and there was just one. Now Greyhawk's Lloth is not the same Lloth in FR, except that they share the same name.

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Originally posted by Talanfir Swiftfeet

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Originally posted by Kuje
I.E, in 2e Lloth was Lloth everywhere and there was just one. Now Greyhawk's Lloth is not the same Lloth in FR, except that they share the same name.

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Does this apply to other gods worshipped in multiple Primes also? If so does this mean that the Frinders Stone Trilogy is not canon, because forexample Tyr and Moander were worshipped in the Saurial plane aswell as in Toril.

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Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane

I say just use'em how you want.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Talanfir Swiftfeet

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Originally posted by Kuje
I.E, in 2e Lloth was Lloth everywhere and there was just one. Now Greyhawk's Lloth is not the same Lloth in FR, except that they share the same name.

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Does this apply to other gods worshipped in multiple Primes also? If so does this mean that the Frinders Stone Trilogy is not canon, because forexample Tyr and Moander were worshipped in the Saurial plane aswell as in Toril.

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The trilogy is still canon. Tyr and Moander weren't worshipped in that other plane -- Dragonbait went somewhere in the Lower Planes where Moander still had a bit of strength, and Tyr is the closest Realms equivalent to his original deity.

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