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The Silhouette
Acolyte
25 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Oct 2004 : 18:32:26
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Is it just me, or do the authors of many books make there characters too overpowered. An example is Drizzt and the rest of his gang...WHO HAS DIED??? Wow, Wulfgar but he came back, I mean, I know there is a lot of fan say in some of this. Salvatore knows that if he kills off Drizzt, many will be mad at him, but he shouldn't care, make it interesting...Drizzt and his friends can't live forever right??? We all have to part with them sooner or later...in any matter I wanted to see what you folks thought about this issue.
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Edited by - Alaundo on 14 Oct 2004 09:53:50
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2004 : 18:54:52
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Well, There are several points here...
Point in the first: The drizzt novels make Sal a very nice living, and, I refuse to begrudge a man for not ending a series of books that allows him to provide very nicely for his family.
Point in the second: This has it's roots in DnD, the level of power and ingenuity present in heroes(and in novels, main characters) is such that they will often find their way back from death, if they really want to. Also, it is hard to end a saga well, and Drizzt dying at the hands of orcs, or being speared by goblin while he was in the privvy would be rather anticlimactic.
Point the third: Just as it may seem contrived for characters to live seemingly forever(when in actuality the drizzt saga has lasted only a couple decades at most) offing characters for no good reason/shock value is a sure sign of bad writing, and bad plot design.
Point to the fourth: Again, this series has it's roots in DnD, and one of the primary components of that is characters progress in power over time, as well as through success. Often times this is something I have issues with, but it *is* a major component of the genre.
In the end, it would be a disservice to beloved characters to die in ways that they would not desire, and to deny them a good death would have to be something done for a very good(literary) reason. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
Edited by - Capn Charlie on 13 Oct 2004 18:57:03 |
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Gabriel_theArch
Acolyte
Turkey
5 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2004 : 19:14:20
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| What about Elminster, the Old Mage? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2004 : 19:47:11
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About the death of Wulfgar: RAS intended to leave him dead, but because of the fan uproar, he was pushed into bringing him back.
About Elminster: El is a Chosen of Mystra, and, as such, is effectively immortal. He has had some close calls, and Ed has made a couple of cryptic comments about Elminster's time drawing to a close. |
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Forlorn
Seeker
59 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2004 : 21:27:50
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Well, I don't think besides Drizzt his band is too powerful. Wulfgar has an imagizg weapon as well as Catie Brie but they are only 7th level according to the stats I found about them. Bruenor is 11th and he is relatively more experienced but old. They all have different features that make them a very powerful team. But if level is the issue there are many character that will take them all.
And Drizzt may seem owerwhelming but he never fought against a very powerful mage and maybe he is still the best fighter but not an owerwhelming power by himself when he is fighting a band like his. But he is especially very luck no matter whom he is fighing(Salvatore charm). I wonder how he will die :))).
If you ask for owerwhelming I say Lorlock, and the Shade and of course the choosens of Mystra. They are indeed owerwhelming. |
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Valdar Oakensong
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
159 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2004 : 21:50:49
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Check out Georgi Wyvernspur for an underpowered hero, but he still remains one of my favourates. Wulfgar should have stayed dead in my opinion, it was his time. I wish that Ed would not drop hints like that about El it drives me mad with anticipation. And my last point is: If Bob was to kill off Drizzt, he could concentrate more on a new Cadderly series, so I say KILL THE DROW. WE WANT MORE CADDERLY. |
Guns don't kill people, magic missiles do. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2004 : 21:55:27
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quote:
Originally posted by The Silhouette
Is it just me, or do the authors of many books make there characters too overpowered. An example is Drizzt and the rest of his gang...WHO HAS DIED??? Wow, Wulfgar but he came back, I mean, I know there is a lot of fan say in some of this. Salvatore knows that if he kills off Drizzt, many will be mad at him, but he shouldn't care, make it interesting...Drizzt and his friends can't live forever right??? We all have to part with them sooner or later...in any matter I wanted to see what you folks thought about this issue.
You're bringing up a point I've seen made before. After Wulfgar came back, I just stopped reading the books. I tried to restart with the first book in this new Drizzt series, but I just didn't enjoy it. Thus, I moved on to other works I enjoy.
quote:
]Originally posted by The Silhouette
About the death of Wulfgar: RAS intended to leave him dead, but because of the fan uproar, he was pushed into bringing him back.
I wish George R.R. Martin had this attitude! |
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2004 : 22:10:24
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Well, they wouldn't make very good adventures if the heros died, would they? ;)
Besides, really there are only two sets of 'continuing' characters that this complaint really applies to (since we can hardly complain that the hero lived on too long in say, the Harper books):
-Drizzt and crew: Out of these fellows, really the only one who is obscenely powerful is Drizzt, and that's sort of the point of the character, and has been from the begining. Sure, some day he'll die a violent death, but he's going to live for a few hundred years. It's very D&D-ish that he lives on, and thus very apporpriate. I'm more amazed at Entreri's survival that Drizzt's, but since I think that Entreri is not only a great character, but vital to the Drizzt story, I let it go. Actually, if Salvatore really wanted to do something neat, and he was thinking about leaving the game, Entreri finally killing Drizzt would be a very interesting twist.
-The original Greenwood bunch: This being Elminster, Khelben Blackstaff, six of the Seven Sisters, Fzoul and Manshoon. Of course they don't die. They ARE the Realms, to a certain extent. Elminster is associated with the Realms in a way that no other character is, and sits atop the heap as the Realms' Gandalf, Mordenkainen or Paladine. Khelben and the others are unique enough that they give the setting a lot of it's flavor, and it was always neat to interact with the famous NPCs. Heck, back in the early 90s, one of the PCs in our game got Power Word: Killed by Manshoon, and we all thought that was about the coolest way you could possibly go, if you had to go. If you start killing some of these establish NPCs, you're knocking at part of what makes the Realms unique and great.
Sure, maybe they'll want to kill Elminster once and for all. However, I hope that they'll let him go with some grace and class. Have him move on, have his immortality wane, have him ascend into demi-divinity. What I don't want to see is Elminster get ripped apart by a dozen phaerimm or three dozen Malaugrym. Don't have Larloch, Szass Tam and Manshoon suddenly show up and blow the Old Mage sky high in a spell battle. Don't have Bane's avatar kill him (again). Just have him die in bed, surrounded by the people who loved him. The character deserves that much, and I think trying to make some sort of impressive uber-death for him would be kinda over the top and silly.
The same applies to most of the other characters, although Manshoon would have to be blown up and Fzoul should simply never die. You can only kill so many of them before the shock value simply wears off. |
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Valdar Oakensong
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
159 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2004 : 22:15:21
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I know what you mean Sirius, I really struggled to finish The Spine Of The World, I thought that the story was rushed and boring. And this was from an author that I have been reading from the beginning so it was a big disapointment. The new books arebetter by far though. Sorry you don't like them.
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by The Silhouette
Is it just me, or do the authors of many books make there characters too overpowered. An example is Drizzt and the rest of his gang...WHO HAS DIED??? Wow, Wulfgar but he came back, I mean, I know there is a lot of fan say in some of this. Salvatore knows that if he kills off Drizzt, many will be mad at him, but he shouldn't care, make it interesting...Drizzt and his friends can't live forever right??? We all have to part with them sooner or later...in any matter I wanted to see what you folks thought about this issue.
You're bringing up a point I've seen made before. After Wulfgar came back, I just stopped reading the books. I tried to restart with the first book in this new Drizzt series, but I just didn't enjoy it. Thus, I moved on to other works I enjoy.
quote:
]Originally posted by The Silhouette
About the death of Wulfgar: RAS intended to leave him dead, but because of the fan uproar, he was pushed into bringing him back.
I wish George R.R. Martin had this attitude!
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Guns don't kill people, magic missiles do. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2004 : 22:31:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Valdar Oakensong
I know what you mean Sirius, I really struggled to finish The Spine Of The World, I thought that the story was rushed and boring. And this was from an author that I have been reading from the beginning so it was a big disapointment. The new books arebetter by far though. Sorry you don't like them.
I didn't feel rushed by it, but it definitely didn't hold my interest as some of his earlier Drizzt books did. |
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Valdar Oakensong
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
159 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2004 : 22:55:19
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| Sorry Rupert, my post was not very clear. I felt that the novel was not given the same amount of time in its conception as Bob's other books were. The first 9 books or so you could tell that Bob knew where he wanted to go, then fan and peer pressure seemed to take over. One of the problems of fame I guess. |
Guns don't kill people, magic missiles do. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2004 : 13:51:55
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The Silhouette said:
quote:
Is it just me, or do the authors of many books make there characters too overpowered. An example is Drizzt and the rest of his gang...WHO HAS DIED??? Wow, Wulfgar but he came back, I mean, I know there is a lot of fan say in some of this. Salvatore knows that if he kills off Drizzt, many will be mad at him, but he shouldn't care, make it interesting...Drizzt and his friends can't live forever right??? We all have to part with them sooner or later...in any matter I wanted to see what you folks thought about this issue.
I agree. I've always thought that, since no one really important has really died in this series, the combat scenes become a little moot. Doesn't it defeat the entire purpose of them -- the thrill and suspense that the characters may be in actual, mortal danger -- when the cast is encased in a protective bubble like that? Especially when the books are chock-full of action sequence after action sequence?
Mind you, this doesn't apply just to the Drizzt novels, but also the majority of fantasy fiction in general.
EDIT: Feh. Edited to enter tags manually and fix my font, which for some reason appeared as larger-than-average, aquamarine text. |
Edited by - Winterfox on 14 Oct 2004 13:56:34 |
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Lameth
Learned Scribe
Germany
196 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2004 : 22:43:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Neil
... have him ascend into demi-divinity.
Ao asked him that once before and I don`t think El would change it now. |
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Ignorance Personified
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2004 : 02:44:01
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quote:
I agree. I've always thought that, since no one really important has really died in this series, the combat scenes become a little moot. Doesn't it defeat the entire purpose of them -- the thrill and suspense that the characters may be in actual, mortal danger -- when the cast is encased in a protective bubble like that? Especially when the books are chock-full of action sequence after action sequence?
Doesn't this apply to fiction in general?
The oldest "western" work of fiction, not including the Epic of Gilgamesh(Akkad/Sumer not really "western"...I dont know) , Homer's Iliad was also full of fight scenes and mortal confrontations. Yet the audience, which already knew the story as it had already been passed down through the centuries, was riveted by this story and would listen to it being told for hours(most liekly over the course of several days). The audience listened because they wanted to see how the characters would react to situations being thrown at them and how inter character relationships would turn out(such as the argument between Achilles and Agamemnon). Romeo and Juliet, and most of William S.'s(I wrote it like that because I am Ignorant and cannot spell his last name off the top of my head) other works begin by telling what will happen at the end(A pair of star crossed lovers). After all this rambling the point is: It is possible to enjoy a book while knowing the ending because you care about how the characters relations will turn out not just if they are going to live or die.
Similarly, many readers are obviously interested in the fight scenes within Salvatore's works, Homer's fight scenes are also very detailed (over a third of the book is fight scenes), or (like me) are interested in how the relationships of the characters will work out. For example, my second favorite Salvatore FR novel is The Spine of the World which focuses on Wulfgar's internal conflict, and thought it was appealing to watch a human reconcile his being tortured at no fault of his own. Are their books that do this better, of course, but none within the settings of the realms (which I find appealing) and certainly none within them with a charcter that had been established for over five novels. Characters drive novels, as people drive history, so to sort of quote Pythagoras in books "characters are the measure of all things." Think about it, don't most people see good or bad in a book through the perspective of their favorite character just as we see history through our own ideological spectrum.
As for the argument that many authors works are built upon mortal suspence, well one argument is that the series could not have possibly survived as long as it did if that were the case. Another is to look at the James Bond movies, which have succeded despite everyone knowing the signature character will not die. When readers get attached to characters often authors don't wont to risk letting them go, as the Capn said I can't fault a person for wanting to make money, and many times readers (as a whole) don't want them to.
You are correct in that almost all popular fantasy works do keep the central characters alive and, such as an obscure work where an author brought Gandalf back to life, bring them back from death. As for the most popular series: Have any real important characters died in Harry Potter-->No, isn't that right Sirius?
quote:
Originally Posted By SiriusBlack
I wish George R.R. Martin had this attitude!
No, The Hound lives therefore all is ok in the world. Actually(you may have said it with sarcasm but once again I am ignorant and cannot percieve those things), I could go any way if he keeps up the political hostilities I will read it no matter what he does(unless he names a character Muffinhead then I might have to draw the line).
(Thinks): Spoke off topic, I will blame that on my ignorance later.
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Carthago delenda est. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2004 : 13:45:23
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*shrugs* Understand, mind you, that I have no problem with Salvatore's treatment of his characters or their progressively more incredulous survival. For those that enjoy them, great! For the author, who makes money, great, too! If he enjoys writing it, then all the better. I'm happy for you, and happy for myself, too. There's a reason I stopped reading anything by Salvatore long, long ago, after all.
Anyway.
For a book to keep me interested, the characters don't necessarily have to be in mortal danger. However, they should be in danger of some sort (psychologically or otherwise), and there should always be an element of doubt. Fine; I may not intently read an action scene out of the desire to see if, this time, XYZ will survive. I want to see what happens; I want to see the intrigues of Cult Sinister, as established in chapter three, unfold. I want to see the subplots come together. But for that, the plot has to be sufficiently complex and unpredictable. If both the characters' well-being and the plot fail to keep me curious, then it's time for me to drop the book.
Naturally, it depends on the author. If plot and characterization are intelligently and gracefully woven into action sequences, then it's all wonderful (even if I know the protagonists will emerge victorious). And sometimes they just aren't. Sometimes action scenes become a torturous string of verbs and exclamation marks, and they are basically... skippable. They add nothing to, well, anything. They're just a chance for the characters to show off their combat skills.
Since I haven't kept up with the Drizzt books, I'll bring up something I've finished reading in its entirety (or thus far published at this point, anyway). So, spoilers ahoy for The Cleric Quintet. (I'd do the "spoiler; highlight to read" thing, but that'd be annoying, considering the post's length.)
Spoiler space. There.
A very large portion of the series is spent depicting barrage of battle scenes; In Sylvan Shadows is barely anything more than a skirmish after skirmish, and then a final large-scale brawl. And I found that I could skim through all of them and go read the next non-action scene -- and I missed nothing in particular, plot, character development or otherwise. (All told, I think the actual non-action parts constitute how many pages? Twenty?) I could predict who'll survive and who won't -- and unfortunately, I was seldom proven wrong, if ever. This held true for all five volumes. Some characters just screamed "Hi, I'm a throwaway tertiary person, whose death will either mean very little or cause Cadderly to spend token time angsting!"
Oh, and then there're the portions spent looking at the villains. Those. Very frequently, they'd end with sinister cackling or ominous proclamation (something along the line of "This time my intrepid son will not survive the might of my power!") from Aballister. I started to question: why are these scenes here? Is his plotting supposed to make me concerned for Cadderly? Why should I? We all know Aballister'll fail anyway. The wizard's a cackling egomaniac, for peanut's sake. He doesn't have any positive quality, period. The prose keeps telling me he's intelligent, but I didn't really see him do anything particularly clever. He isn't even well-regarded by his colleagues; he's no leader. Oh, he could have been a dark mirror, something that Cadderly could become -- but there's never any real possibility of that, is there? Again, we all know Cadderly will adhere to his morals and he'll never, ever stray from the path of all that is true and righteous.
Furthermore, there's not even real non-physical danger anymore, after a while. Cadderly ceases angsting about morality at one point, and he then zealously attributes everything he does to "divine inspiration." Anyone he kills? Evil. His spell (and subsequently, his god) tells him so! Out through the window goes another opportunity for real, internal conflict. No, Cadderly cannot be wrong. He's always, oh, so right. Deneir's guiding him, after all, and anyone against him has to be wronger than wrong. Or hypocritical, or misguided, or jealous, or something. Even his relationship with Danica leaves no uncertainty. She's, after all, so wise and understanding and wonderful. Even the brief fling with Prince Elbereth seemed like lip service to the gods of soap opera. Is there any reader who actually thought, even for a minute, that Danica would break Cadderly's heart and tell him, "Let's just be friends"?
Sure, Cadderly's aging accelerates, but no, we can't have a true tragedy, can we? So by the time the cathedral's finished, he regains his youth all over. In the end, add that to the easily forseeable battle scenes, you get something like a perfect, rose petals-strewn happy-ever-after, where nothing remains unsolved or in doubt. Everything's all right and well and sunny. And frankly, for me, nothing's ever been in doubt -- not in the beginning, not in the middle, and certainly not in the chapters leading toward the finale.
As I said, if fiction like this appeals to you? Marvelous. It's not as if I'm going to condemn it for being low-brow or juvenile; it's just that it's not my cup of tea, and I've told you why. |
Edited by - Winterfox on 15 Oct 2004 13:47:30 |
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Ignorance Personified
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2004 : 15:57:45
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quote:
They add nothing to, well, anything. They're just a chance for the characters to show off their combat skills.
A very good observation. Once again I will refer to Homer who uses fight scenes for the sole purpose of proving to the audience a particular characters battle prowess(Book 5 Diomedes is the best example). This was popular because it reflected the competitiveness of their culture. Similarly, Americans are extremely competitive, you can see this best in the popularity of professional sports. That is why, in my view, Salvatore's works are so popular because the reader wants to know who is the best (hence the popularity of the Artemis/Drizzt rivalry) and the first comment on the thread dedicated to the Two Swords has "I think Drizzt lost to much." Drizzt's popularity arouse out of his battle prowess, I don't think anyone will argue that his "morality" caused them to enjoy reading about him, in countries theoften "worhship" professional sports icons("Real" Football players in Europe and professional sports icons in the US).
quote:
Originally Posted by The Silhouette:
Drizzt and his friends can't live forever right??? We all have to part with them sooner or later...in any matter I wanted to see what you folks thought about this issue.
Not necessarily, people often look at heros refusing to accept that they are gone ("The House That Ruth Built") and the conitnous chants of "1918" when the Red Socks play(a reference to the year the Sox traded Ruth to the Yankees). Similarily, to many The Realms will always be the place Drizzt's place as he introduced so many readers to the Realms (myself included). Though I do not look at him this way, I think Artemis is the most appealing of Salvatore's characters as he has the biggest internal conflict of any Realmsian character (Who am I?), I do understand that many people do. Is that overpowering, maybe, but it is a reflection of soceity (or at least an aspect of it) so I guess we will all just have to live with it.
What is wrong with characters being overpowering anyway, many of the most popular characters in literature and movies are those that are the best at somehting(The hero is after all someone who excels over what the normal individual is capable of so are all characters "overpowering.")
Spoiler Space
For example, my new favorite author in the Realms, Paul S. Kemp, has not killed off any of his main characters (*only* book 3) and if he kills Riven I would be rather pissed off. Another one, many people in this forum were non to happy when Ryld died in WOTSQ.
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox:
Furthermore, there's not even real non-physical danger anymore, after a while. Cadderly ceases angsting about morality at one point, and he then zealously attributes everything he does to "divine inspiration."
I will concur once agian, my only disagreement comes at the end if people just want to skip to that, I found it very shallow to end the character's internal conflict about his relationship with his god by complete and total acceptance. In reality, one is much more likely to find even the most devout believes to have some doubts about the deity they believe in. Perhaps this can be attributed to the Realms where the gods manifest themselves physically througout history, in contrast to what most modern religions believe. I hope that maybe Salvatore will come back to Cadderly and turn this belief against him, it did happen in the cursades after all...one can hope.
quote:
Oh, he could have been a dark mirror, something that Cadderly could become -- but there's never any real possibility of that, is there?
I always thought of him as the dark mirror of Rufo, a character that certainly had the opportunity to go to the "dark-side" throughout the series and finally did in the final volume. You find similarites between the personalties of both when looking at them after their decent into evil. This shows how evil weakens an individual, which is displayed throughout many books, movies, etc. I found these scenes to be humorous. In "Wickless in The Nether" did we really "need" the scene where Artemis hurls the dagger into the wooden cut out of Jarlaxle, all of the readers understand the strange "friendship" these men have, but it is pretty funny(to a low-brow like myself). In LOTR is the scene to seduce Aragorn necessary, Mouth of Sauron, after all we know that he will not give in as he is the (or one of the) Messianic figures of the work. Throughout history many "evil" people have been very smart, Hitler, Alexander (a drunk who was and is not called the Great thoughout the lands he conquered), Nero, etc. Yet they are usually seen as being insane, not brilliant, many times by even the most competant historians. In conclusion, brillance is often seen as insanity, particularly when it conflicts with social norms.
Two consecutive long replies, a first for me. My count should go up by two or three for this, my little purple star is looking pretty pathetic.
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Carthago delenda est. |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2004 : 17:51:04
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| When I've debated this issue.It always came down to this.You can't compare a character from a novel,and apply it to gaming,if that is what you are doing.It's totally different.I don't mind that Drizzt,and the companions are powerful.Or that they come back to life.In the gaming world there is such a thing that's called a ressurection spell.It was used many times in my gaming days.As for Wulfgar.I have said in the past that it really didn't matter if he came back or not.I don't care too much about him.To me he just doesn't seem a major part of the group anymore.I haven't gotten a good feel for him in RAS latest trilogy.As for killing off Drizzt.I'm with Capn Charlie on this.Why in the world would RAS kill off his bread and butter aqt this point???I wouldn't make sense...What I am hoping for though is that RAS take some time out,and concentrate on Entreri and Jarlaxle...As for Elminster...Maybe it is time for him to go...I don't know.I'm still on the fence about this one.... |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2004 : 18:53:08
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quote:
Originally posted by VEDSICA
Why in the world would RAS kill off his bread and butter aqt this point???I wouldn't make sense...
Sure it would, if he was tired of writing about him, or if Drizzt's death somehow had a positive and lasting impact on the Realms.
Just because an author is making money off of a character doesn't mean they might not kill them off. If you read Alexandre Dumas, you will find that of the four Musketeers, three of them died in the end. The only surviving one was the one that had sold out...
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle is best known for one character: Sherlock Holmes. And yet, Sir Arty attempted to kill off Holmes... |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2004 : 01:07:25
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I'd like to see RAS move to another part of the Realms and give us a new character(s), new plot threads and new places to detail/describe. Which reminds me, I have to get my North Timeline to him somehow as he has got Gauntlgrym wrong, wrong, wrong! 
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2004 : 02:15:36
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quote:
Originally posted by VEDSICA
Why in the world would RAS kill off his bread and butter aqt this point???
You're making the character sound less like something that is interesting and more like a cash cow that is being milked. |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2004 : 06:15:31
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SB,I'm not trying to make him out to be a cash cow.Though I am sure we agree that he is RAS most successful character.If people like him or not.They are still buying his books.Meaning Drizzt books.I personally would keep him around for awhile longer.He's still to young for a drow to be killed off as some folks suggest.So what I am implying is that he is RAS most auccessful character,and people still want to read about him.That's what I mean when I say bread and butter.No one has brought us a character with more depth than RAS has with Drizzt IMO.That's what I am trying to get at,and if he makes a few coppers along the way.All the more better.
Wooly I am not against the killing off of characters.I just don't think that he needs to be killed off at this point in time.Whatever he decides to do with him.It would have a lasting impact on the realms,and most likely it would be positive.Besides Drizzt being dead would be like Hendrix,or Morrison.He would make more money dead than alive...But I jest....I think that if he is to be killed off.It would be because RAS is bored with him,and wants to go with other characters to focus on.Hence my call for an Entreri and Jarlaxle series.I mean I salivate thinking about it.Well maybe not salivate,but you get my meaning.But I still think that Drizzt has one more go around with Entreri.Whatever happens there can well define those two great characters. |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2004 : 10:17:52
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Ignorance Personified said:
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Similarly, Americans are extremely competitive, you can see this best in the popularity of professional sports. That is why, in my view, Salvatore's works are so popular because the reader wants to know who is the best (hence the popularity of the Artemis/Drizzt rivalry) and the first comment on the thread dedicated to the Two Swords has "I think Drizzt lost to much." Drizzt's popularity arouse out of his battle prowess, I don't think anyone will argue that his "morality" caused them to enjoy reading about him, in countries theoften "worhship" professional sports icons("Real" Football players in Europe and professional sports icons in the US).
I find that attitude, when regarding fictional (particularly in the novel medium), a little puzzling. Obviously, for me, combat prowess (magical or otherwise) doesn't do much. If I admire a character, it'll be because he/she possesses wit and complexity. Boils down to this: anybody can write a character that's great in combat, magic or whatever. That takes no skill. It's just words on paper, after all. Writing a human, realistic character who can intrigue the reader and make the reader care is another thing entirely. So I don't see what combat prowess has to do with it and, in Drizzt's case, it seems to be a fairly large part of his character.
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What is wrong with characters being overpowering anyway, many of the most popular characters in literature and movies are those that are the best at somehting(The hero is after all someone who excels over what the normal individual is capable of so are all characters "overpowering.")
There's a difference between "overpowered" and "skilled", you know. (Ala, "He's a competent fighter" and "He's the best fighter in the whole Realms omg!") 'Course, there's nothing wrong with it per se; it's just that I (and apparently, some other people) find these characters dead boring, especially when every single thing works out for them. There's also the perfect characters who excel in every single thing they try their hands at, of course.
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I always thought of him as the dark mirror of Rufo, a character that certainly had the opportunity to go to the "dark-side" throughout the series and finally did in the final volume.
Really? I've always found Rufo to be so utterly pathetic he's not even worth reading about. His entire purpose in existence seems to be making Cadderly look better, as if Cadderly isn't glorified thoroughly already.
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This shows how evil weakens an individual, which is displayed throughout many books, movies, etc.
*shrugs* I don't see that. From the start, Kierkan Rufo is a pathetic, talentless generic bully who doesn't have a single positive quality. (Oh, right, that fits Aballister, too, so I guess the similarities are there.) The moral bipolarity, which I find extremely aggravating, is only emphasized here. The bad people are not only evil; they have to be ugly and incompetent, as well. I wish more people would see that it's okay for the heroes not to be right sometimes, and to let the antagonists have actual positive qualities. (Or, even better, be better at something than the hero. Gasp shock horror. Jeeze.) |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2004 : 14:31:44
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quote:
Originally posted by VEDSICA
SB,I'm not trying to make him out to be a cash cow.
Thank you for the clarification.
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No one has brought us a character with more depth than RAS has with Drizzt IMO.
A big IMO. I couldn't disagree more.
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I think that if he is to be killed off.It would be because RAS is bored with him,and wants to go with other characters to focus on.
Last I checked WOTC still had the rights to Drizzt. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2004 : 16:08:56
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by VEDSICA
SB,I'm not trying to make him out to be a cash cow.
Thank you for the clarification.
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No one has brought us a character with more depth than RAS has with Drizzt IMO.
A big IMO. I couldn't disagree more.
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I think that if he is to be killed off.It would be because RAS is bored with him,and wants to go with other characters to focus on.
Last I checked WOTC still had the rights to Drizzt.
Yup. As I said earlier, RAS already tried killing off a character, and was forced to bring him back... I don't see WotC ever letting anything happen to Drizzt.
As for Drizzt's depth... I've never found him to be a particularly deep or compelling character. Drizzt is known for two things: his skill with the sword, and angst. While I like the swordplay, it's not enough to hold my interest for long. And I generally skip the angst-ridden sections of the novels when I read them.
No, you want to talk about character depth, read some of Elaine Cunningham's work. Danilo Thann, Arilyn Moonblade, Liriel Baenre... Those are deep and compelling characters. And Elaith Craulnober... Wow. Thoroughly evil, but honorable and loyal and full of a deep racial pride... What more could you possibly want in a character? |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 16 Oct 2004 16:13:36 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2004 : 18:40:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And Elaith Craulnober... Wow. Thoroughly evil, but honorable and loyal and full of a deep racial pride... What more could you possibly want in a character?
For him to find out he has a son and that others have been keeping this fact from him for...decades.  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2004 : 21:52:18
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And Elaith Craulnober... Wow. Thoroughly evil, but honorable and loyal and full of a deep racial pride... What more could you possibly want in a character?
For him to find out he has a son and that others have been keeping this fact from him for...decades.
Thank you, my oft-sarcastic friend. 
While that does generate a serious "oooooh, yeah!", I was referring to depth of character, not things happening to a character... Though I suppose that seeing that would show us more of the Serpent's intriguing personality. |
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VEDSICA
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2004 : 03:15:51
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| I guess I can also agree with both SB and WR.See that's why I am always on the fence when the issue arises about Drizzt and company being to powerful,and do they need to go.When I said that Drizzt was the most compelling ever.I got a little clouded there.I meant that he was RAS most compelling IMO.Wooly I like all of those characters you mentioned.They all have depth,and are a treat to read.Now that you also mention it.Do either of you think that if RAS wants to stop writing about Drizzt.Would WoTC have another author write about him??Would the masses accept that??Also where was it mentioned that The Serpent had a son???I can't remember if I saw that or not,or if it is new to me. |
LIFE,BIRTH,BLOOD,DOOM---THE HOLE IN THE GROUND IS COMING ROUND SOON----BLS |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2004 : 03:42:22
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quote:
Originally posted by VEDSICA
Do either of you think that if RAS wants to stop writing about Drizzt.
Last I heard and this is a big paraphrase, RAS attitude was, I like writing the Drizzt books, people like reading them. Thus, why stop?
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Would WoTC have another author write about him??
That was done once. The novel never saw publication. I doubt it will ever come that close again.
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Would the masses accept that??
No idea there.
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Also where was it mentioned that The Serpent had a son???I can't remember if I saw that or not,or if it is new to me.
Evermeet: Island of Elves by Elaine Cunningham. |
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Ignorance Personified
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2004 : 20:15:16
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Winterfox said:
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That takes no skill. It's just words on paper, after all. Writing a human, realistic character who can intrigue the reader and make the reader care is another thing entirely. So I don't see what combat prowess has to do with it and, in Drizzt's case, it seems to be a fairly large part of his character.
"[N]o skill." It is is that simple why don't you just write a book and make few thousand dollars(if you have a problem with this as it "violates" the literary medium then just write a screen play).
Let's use Artemis, my favorite RAS character, as the example of a "human realisitic character." Artemis is currently trying to find his place in the world, he has no friends, and has defined himself by his fighting ability throughout his life. He is now trying to escape this reality that he has made for himself, meanwhile he must always watch his back because can anyone trust Jarlaxle(another interesting character)? As RAS notes at the end of his latest short, such was the fog of friendship among theives(or something like that), Artemis finds this relationship to be less than stellar but finds himself trapped because he has no where else to go. At the end of "Servant of the Shard" he writes to Dwarvel stating that he was his only true friend and will miss him. It was in Dwarvel's brothel that Enteri was able to relax and enjoy things for the first time in his life. Entreri defined himself by his fighting ability, something Drizzt does to a much lesser extent, and as a result he is near a psychological breakdown, something that can be noted byt he way he reacts to the dragons in "Wickless in the Nether" and the way he almost reveals himself to the lady after he glaces in his direction(does anyone think the Artemis of the first few novels would have been the least bit worried about these things as he had supreme confidence in his abilities). Another interesting aspect of the character is how he is dealing with aging, he is trying to deny it adding to his psychological concerns, and how Jarlaxle is constantly taunting him about it(Does anyone think that Jarlaxle is trying to "break" Entreri...after all Jarl does love a challenge?). A character that was defined by his physical prowess, and defined himself by his physical prowess, has one of the most interesting conflicts in the realms, this can be seen through popularity of even those who do not enjoy the Drizzt novels. No one knows what he will do now, he obviously does not see the challenge of the kill as encompassing his entire existence anymore therefore he is abou to undergo a major personality/lifestyle shift.
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The bad people are not only evil; they have to be ugly and incompetent, as well. I wish more people would see that it's okay for the heroes not to be right sometimes, and to let the antagonists have actual positive qualities.
Entreri, Jarlaxle, Ghost(not to the extent of the others listed), the elf Drizzt killed in Sea of Swords all have positive qualities. Which brings up another point...Drizzt went on a raid while in Menzo where many elfs were killed. In this book one of them comes back and fights him, when he fatally wounds her it also wounds him. He therefore tells the companions to give the healing potion to her, as it is the ethical thing to do, but they do not and give it to him so he lives and the girl dies. The girl was not evil, obsessed with revenge, but not evil. That is trajedy, the death of an innocent that one had tried to save, in the raid Drizzt saved her by coverng her in her mother's blood, and walking away from it because someone else decided you should live.
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If I admire a character, it'll be because he/she possesses wit and complexity. Boils down to this: anybody can write a character that's great in combat, magic or whatever.
"Great at whatever," if anybody can do this then why are so many authors making money off of it, Roland of Gilead was defined by his fighting prowess early on in The Dark Tower(S. King). Gandalf (LOTR) is defined by his humor, magical abilites, and his ability to be stead fast. Raj Ahten, Farland's The Runelords, is defined by his need to be the best and that he has the strength of 1000 men, the speed of 500, the metabolism or 6 etc... Similarly, The Hound is defined by his skill with the sword and his nature to be a "son born out of wedlock" in Martin's Song of Ice and Fire (his brother is defined by his size. Drizzt is defined by his fighting skills and his "angst" as many people put it. He also has to recouncile his frienship with his place in the world, his faith in a god while the god his people worship is cruel and evil, and his place in a world where is kind are hated. Many people complain because this comes up in every single book, but if you went to the south during the reign of Jim Crow laws I can assure you that the African American community would be constantly reminded of their place in soceity.
Literature reflects society, not all of it obviously and therefore each work will show just a few aspects of it. Salvatore's works have characters trying to find out their place in soceity, their identity, their faith, the reconcliation of a diety within a world where evil is everywhere (see Cleric's Quintet book 5 "where is Ogmah where is Denier after Rufo takes over). These are not simple matters that are easily answered, indeed many of the characters die before they get a response. Not the main characters mind you but other characters. Parhaps RAS has the main characters to guide the readers through the world where people are making these decisions that will shape their lives while the main characters do make other difficult decisions during the process. Is that not a reflection of "realistic" human qualities, as most humans make some hard decisions and help others through theirs, everything does not work out for the characters(Wulfar does not marry Cattie-Bree, Bruenor has to be king, Drizzt will have to watch her die in a short time the way the drow see time). To make a character undergo a series of radical changes and overcome several internal conflicts is unrealistic, unhuman, or if you prefer superhuman. People get upset because it is unrealistic for Drizzt not to change quickly, I disagree how many people drastically change during their lifetime, not many, it is a slow change that occurs throughout the years. Even in military service only a few come back drastically altered, usually those people are dianosed with PTSD, and others only come back with different world views. Even those do not emerge over night but rather over their entire service.To have a character have a sudden insight that launches to a change is "overpowering" is it not? It makes the person have a superhuman mental ability to reconcile all possible problems in a nanosecond.
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2004 : 03:47:22
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Ignorance Personified said:
quote:
"[N]o skill." It is is that simple why don't you just write a book and make few thousand dollars(if you have a problem with this as it "violates" the literary medium then just write a screen play).
My, aren't we getting a touch defensive here? A few thousand dollars? Hee! I'm almost expecting to see "If you think you can do it better..." come up next. Heh.
To clarify, when I said that, I meant the combat prowess of a character as a sole, isolated trait. To write a character that has that, and only that, and not much else going for him? I stand by what I said: it takes no skill at all.
You keep bringing Drizzt and other characters from the Drizzt books up, but I don't feel qualified to discuss them, since I've blocked most of what I've read out from my memory and have no desire to re-read them.
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Entreri, Jarlaxle, Ghost(not to the extent of the others listed), the elf Drizzt killed in Sea of Swords all have positive qualities.
*shrugs* I was discussing the CQ, yes? As I said -- haven't read all the Drizzt books; have already forgotten what I've read, so not going to go there.
As for Ghost? Well, I'll quote the Peter's Evil Overlord list and say unto you: "I will only employ bounty hunters who work for money. Those who work for the pleasure of the hunt tend to do dumb things like even the odds to give the other guy a sporting chance."
quote:
Which brings up another point...Drizzt went on a raid while in Menzo where many elfs were killed. In this book one of them comes back and fights him, when he fatally wounds her it also wounds him. He therefore tells the companions to give the healing potion to her, as it is the ethical thing to do, but they do not and give it to him so he lives and the girl dies. The girl was not evil, obsessed with revenge, but not evil. That is trajedy, the death of an innocent that one had tried to save, in the raid Drizzt saved her by coverng her in her mother's blood, and walking away from it because someone else decided you should live.
I haven't read this part, but I'm not sure how this is relevant. She isn't portrayed as a villain in the first place, is she? Doesn't she go to prove my point about "all who oppose the hero(es) are wrong, misguided, jealous, etc"? From what I've heard, the elf girl is obsessed with revenge -- and falls squarely into the category of "misguided."
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"Great at whatever," if anybody can do this then why are so many authors making money off of it...
Again, I'm directing this mostly at the idea that skills in combat or magic can make a good character (without anything else to add to the depth, personality, and background). As for why some things make money -- well, they sell. Pokemon makes money and Britney Spears makes money. While I'm not saying that this is a bad thing, or that people who enjoy them have no taste, I'm saying that I don't share this taste. (Mind you, I'm not saying that anything popular is bad, either -- many of the things I enjoy are pretty mainstream, after all. Like Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett.) |
Edited by - Winterfox on 18 Oct 2004 07:31:59 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2004 : 04:24:40
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| As for me, I can understand Drizzt feeling some angst over the differences between him and his people. But you know what? I got it after the first book. I didn't need to keep delving into his angst, book after book after book. Once was enough -- nay, more than enough. The topic is covered, friend Drizzt, let's move on to something else. |
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Overpowering
