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Elmonster
Acolyte
Russia
49 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Aug 2004 : 10:42:40
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I've just finished "Elminster in Hell" and i can say that it is not the best novel by Greenwood. Elminster in Myth Drannor and Making of the Mage were much more enjoyable reading.
Still a have one question about the novel: Why Mystra had to send Simbul and Halaster to rescue Elm? Why she couldn't have done it herself? Or why couldn't she just give Elminster enough power, so he could slay Nergal himself?
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I wished on the seven sisters
Bring me the wisdom of the age
All that's locked within the book of secrets
I longed for the knowledge of the sage...
Fires at Midnight, Blackmore's Night |
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MuadDib
Senior Scribe
South Africa
442 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2004 : 13:07:09
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As I recall, she did, but the problem was that her presence was too disruptive to the overall scheme of things, so much so that all the levels of hell rose up to stop her including Asmodeus, whoever he is.
She needed a smaller team so they could get in without rousing all of Hell as she did.
I think... |
MuadDib - Candlekeep Inn Barhand |
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Saime
Acolyte
Denmark
21 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2004 : 13:52:06
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quote:
Originally posted by MuadDib
As I recall, she did, but the problem was that her presence was too disruptive to the overall scheme of things, so much so that all the levels of hell rose up to stop her including Asmodeus, whoever he is.
Mystra did indeed go to hell to get Elminster. As a result of her use of magic, rifts began to open between hell and Faerun. Mystra had to leave or unleash hell on Toril:
"In Avernus, a ball of fire raced down to burst amid scorched pinnacles. It suddenly veered aside. Out of the air before it stepped a tall, slender female form, as bright as a beacon ... "Where is he?" her voice rolled out across all Avernus ... Hell was aroused. The sky split with lightning and the smoking mountains roared fire. In the heart of a million devils and more, Mystra glared and slew, glared and slew, until those flying three ranks back of the vanished were singed. They fell from the skies onto Avernus in a dark, wet rain of broken bodies, cloaking the peaks and choking the blood rivers.
Terrible trumpets sounded. Dark chariots ascended the skies. From their fanged maws poured hordes of winged monsters, horrible hydras seldom seen in Avernus.
Mystra slew and slew, a bright silver flame against a tightening sphere of black bloody death. The air itself began to shatter and fall away around her like smashed glass. Rifts opened around the embattled goddess. When she saw Faerun bright and fair through them, below and behind her, Mystra knew that she must go or lose Toril in her trying. The harrowing of Hell-and the snatching of Elminster-must wait for another day and another way."
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2004 : 16:10:00
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*You* found them more enjoyable. I think pretty clearly Elminster in Hell *is* the best of Ed's Realms novels: it's ambitious, powerful literary fantasy rather than just another linear adventure yarn.
As others have said, your question is answered explicitly in the book. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2004 : 01:58:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
*You* found them more enjoyable. I think pretty clearly Elminster in Hell *is* the best of Ed's Realms novels: it's ambitious, powerful literary fantasy rather than just another linear adventure yarn.
As others have said, your question is answered explicitly in the book.
I, too, loved El in Hell above all other Greenwood novels... Lots of loose ends are tied in this nice little piece of work, and you all know how much I hate walking with my shoes untied...     |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2004 : 03:48:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
*You* found them more enjoyable. I think pretty clearly Elminster in Hell *is* the best of Ed's Realms novels: it's ambitious, powerful literary fantasy rather than just another linear adventure yarn.
As others have said, your question is answered explicitly in the book.
I, too, loved El in Hell above all other Greenwood novels... Lots of loose ends are tied in this nice little piece of work, and you all know how much I hate walking with my shoes untied...
I wish I could say I agreed with y'all about that... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Elmonster
Acolyte
Russia
49 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2004 : 09:14:58
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quote:
I think pretty clearly Elminster in Hell *is* the best of Ed's Realms novels: it's ambitious, powerful literary fantasy rather than just another linear adventure yarn.
Can't recall a novel by Greenwood which is a linear adventure. All Elminster Series novels are much more than just another "good books", but i can't say that "Elminster in Hell" is the best one.
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I wished on the seven sisters
Bring me the wisdom of the age
All that's locked within the book of secrets
I longed for the knowledge of the sage...
Fires at Midnight, Blackmore's Night |
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Lina
Senior Scribe
Australia
469 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2004 : 11:14:11
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| Reading Elminster in Hell was a challenge, but at least I managed to finish the book. Ed's writing style in this novel is not the one I'm normally used to, I normally prefer the linear storytelling action/adventure ones, but it was well planned out and quite easy to follow. |
“Darkness beyond twilight, crimson beyond blood that flows! Buried in the flow of time. In thy great name. I pledge myself to darkness. All the fools who stand in our way shall be destroyed…by the power you and I possess! DRAGON SLAVE!!!”
"Thieves? Ah, such an ugly word... look upon them as the most honest sort of merchant."
-Oglar the Thieflord |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2004 : 14:11:50
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Well said, Faraer!! Saime, your quote encapsulates the greatest, most epic moment in the entire FR library.
quote:
In the heart of a million devils and more, Mystra glared and slew, glared and slew.
A million devils?!?! I think this is the one and only time the figure "million" is used in the FR library. I had a fit when I read this scene. Only Greenwood could command such power in an FR novel.
Listen up, folks:
Ed Greenwood's FR novels exist entirely on a higher plane. I can't tell you how annoyed I get reading some of the more recent FR novels. The diction is hand-fed to us, and that simplicity exists in, really, every FR novel but Greenwood's. Greenwood stimulates the FR reader more than any other FR author. His books are must-reads for any FR reader, gamer, or DM.
Elminster in Hell is the most amazing, exciting, and (truly) ambitious novel of the entire FR library, and a warm pat on the back for any reader who has been following Elminster throughout his exploits.
The novel contains moments that are far beyond anything found in any other FR book. The Simbul and her Blood Ring, Halaster, Geryon, Asmodeus, and, of course, Mystra herself battling the minions of Hell... How can anyone not love that??
I understand the dream sequences stray from the main plot line, and I do remember flipping ahead, asking myself, "Man, when do we get back to the hellish blood-letting?" Those memory sequences act as a wonderful pat on the back for any FR reader who has read all of Greenwood's books. It also makes sense at this point that we are given a glimpse of Elminster's mind, considering how Elminster is possibly insane, and even more so after the scouring of his mind. Elminster in Hell gives us a look at Elminster's inner thoughts, and it also lets us see his most prized memories. This is a wonderful thing for a character to give to us. The memory sequences have a purpose, and that purpose goes beyond the novel itself.
My only gripe is that we don't have Nergal in the Book of Vile Darkness. Some of those devils were amazing! I remember Geryon from that old 2E module Paladin in Hell. There's a great picture of him battling a group of epic PCs. Man, I think I might read that book again.
Elminster in Hell is epic, it's ambitious, it's simply amazing. It does something that NONE of the other FR novels do: it challanges the reader. 
Long live Ed Greenwood. 
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"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
Edited by - Crust on 18 Aug 2004 21:38:16 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2004 : 21:00:41
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Hail to Crust! Hail to the King! Hail to Greenwood!
Amen to that, Crust! you described exactly how I felt about Elminster in Hell... I can't wait to start on El's Daughter now, but I must first finish the WotSQ books I recently purchased in paperback, then move on to some of Elaine's classics that I have been meaning to get to for oh so many years...
That'll make El's Daughter the more sweeter methinks!! |
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Finglas Leaflock
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2004 : 23:28:42
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I loved the book, too. As I was reading the last battle scene, I thought to myself, Ed is showing us how to REALLY shake the Realms.
Just a minor point, I guess, but I think Crust already covered the important stuff. ;-) |
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Moonharp
Acolyte
Canada
38 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2004 : 21:56:34
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I love Ed Greenwood as he has not only great ideas for his tales and characters, but is a very special author (writer) because he manages to do what most other writers do not. He introduces a different kind of internal conflict in each of his new novels:
Elminster and the Making of Mage - Revenge, guilt, temptation...
Elminster in Myth Drannor - Love, and a wide variety of deep questions about a society (This was especially represented well rather not in Elminster himself, but in the Elven Court). Sacrifice was strong - especially in the Coronal.
Temptation of Elminster - Temptation, as the title so obviously portrays.
Elminster in Hell - Sacrifice...
Elminster's Daughter - Friendship.
While all of these topics are rudimentary and commonplace in literature, Ed uses them in many different ways, and each time in a new fashion, as to show them in a different position. Few authors manage this successfully in a series of books detailing the same character five times, and still keep us interested in their internal conflicts.
Therefore, Ed Greenwood, I salute you! (I will hardly be noticed from the rest of the masses who also do the like ).
P.S. - My most favorite part of all his books is when Elminster is a thief in his home city... I just love the rougishness of that part. |
Moonharp the Marvelous |
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The Simbul
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2004 : 02:16:27
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Elminster in Hell: the short version, using the 3rd edition rules and character stats:
Round 1:
Elminster is trapped in Hell, has exhaused his prepared spells and spell-like abilities, and is trapped in magical bindings by Nergal the exiled Arhcdevil.
Round 2:
Elminster says "Mystra, I'm sorry..."
Mystra hears her name and uses her remote sensing divine ability to observe Elminster.
Round 3:
Mystra uses her Alter Reality salient divine ability to emulate a Miracle spell, to snatch Elminster from Avernus and bring him to Dweomerheart, bypassing all magical and planar barriers and local conditions.
Round 4:
Mystra casts a quickened Heal on Elminster
Mystra casts a Greater Restoration on Elminster
Round 5: Mystra teleports Elminster back to his tower in Shadowdale
-THE END. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2004 : 05:40:24
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Simbul, Round 3 and Round 5 never happened. Where did you get this from?
The Simbul herself was the one that teleported Elminster to safety and even then they returned to Algarond.
At the end, Elminster stayed with the Simbul at her palace, and was not "teleported" to Shadowdale. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2004 : 07:02:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Crust
quote:
In the heart of a million devils and more, Mystra glared and slew, glared and slew.
A million devils?!?! I think this is the one and only time the figure "million" is used in the FR library. I had a fit when I read this scene. Only Greenwood could command such power in an FR novel.
It must be my plebian little mind, but what is so special about that, or the figure million? |
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Lameth
Learned Scribe
Germany
196 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2004 : 10:27:48
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Simbul, Round 3 and Round 5 never happened. Where did you get this from?
The Simbul herself was the one that teleported Elminster to safety and even then they returned to Algarond.
At the end, Elminster stayed with the Simbul at her palace, and was not "teleported" to Shadowdale.
I think "The Simbul" told a joke....how the book could have ended. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2004 : 14:47:40
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| 'Millions' has a particular resonance by virtue of its scarcity in the sources, and the fact that it's a concept unavailable to most folk of Faern, conveying the inhuman scale of Hell and Mystra. |
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The Simbul
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2004 : 17:04:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Lameth
I think "The Simbul" told a joke....how the book could have ended.
Yes I was joking. Mystra has an INT of 45 and a WIS of 40, yet clearly doesnt act that way in much of the fiction she is presented in. She could have easily saved Elminster from the depths of Hell without so much as moving a fingertip out of her own divine realm on Dweomerheart. |
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Sage of Stars
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2004 : 18:33:13
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Well said, Crust. VERY well said.
Im well aware that ELMINSTER IN HELL isnt to every readers taste, but far too many scribes here have made a mistake that Faraer has ably pointed out on several occasions: equating I didnt like it with It sucks.
Ive mentioned my own reasons for remaining anonymous here before, but I am an award-winning sf writer with over a dozen novels published in the field over three decades. Im a SFWA member, and have served on awards juries, published scores of short stories in the sf mags, done Hollywood work (bleh), and been an editor at two major New York houses.
Enough chest-thumping. Suffice it to say that I speak with some authority on what will or will not get published, and whats generally regarded as good in the field (note: I mean solidly-crafted work or work of literary merit, not books I liked or didnt like, or camel dung but itll sell).
Most scribes wont be pleased to hear this, but most humans, however lowly or unimportant, like to consider themselves superior to at least one other group of humans. Serious or hard sf writers like to look down on fantasy writers, and serious fantasy writers like to look down on what they call commercial fantasy writers. Many writers of the latter sneer at fantasy romances (the Magic takes me back in time and Im ravished by a Viking sort of bodice-ripper), even though Diana Gabaldon has had smash successes with her series among mainstream readers.
Well, people, ALL of these fantasy and sf writers like to sneer at fantasy gaming, and gaming writers. In part because they sneer at all shared world or sharecropping projects (with the possible exceptions, for some of them, of the early Thieves World volumes and the Harlans World hard science project), and in part because gaming is for painfully immature nerds who write like just what they are.
They dont consider Salvatore or Weis and Hickman or Greenwood for any awards, they forget what Greg Costikyan (gaming great and SFWA member) did in the past, and they generally deride what WotC and White Wolf and so on publish as that crap.
Ed Greenwoods TOR books are considered low-brow male-oriented genre fantasy (commercial fantasy like much of what is churned out), though his sales figures put him in the writers well talk to category for most editors and publishers. Again, Im saying nothing about quality, Im talking perception.
To them, the Realms (Drizzt and Elminster included), like everything else gaming, is more of that crap for kids. Hollywood uniformly thinks of the Realms as being drow being nasty underground, and they think of the drow as beautiful nude black women wearing Spock ears and being bitchy. I KNOW this; Ive heard studio discussions about bidding for possible large and small screen treatments of FR.
I also know that ELMINSTER IN HELL has been seized on by many editors trying to convince their publishers to publish this or that gaming author, and Hollywood types trying to get their superiors interested in FR, and for that matter librarians trying to get their buyers to buy Realms books, so they can say Look, this ISNT all trash! Some of its serious fiction, almost literature! Read this if you dont believe me!
These are people who read hundreds of books a year, whose livelihoods depend on really knowing whats being published. I number myself among them.
I understand that some Realms fans dont and wont like ELMINSTER IN HELL, or prefer it to Eds other books or the work of other writers. Thats their perfect right.
However, I grow very tired of posters who automatically equate their own preferences with a universal standard of quality, or who deride Greenwood as a bad or sex-obsessed or whatever writer.
In my personal judgement, Ed is weak on bringing his plots to a tidy end before he runs out of wordcount, but (even hampered by editors who want him to write in a simple manner to what they preceive as a young, simple audience) he can and does write rings around most other gaming writers and many, many well-respected fantasy and sf writers. Its no coincidence that hes a fan of Kay, Pratchett, Dunsany, Tolkien, Wodehouse, Brust, LeGuin, McKillip, Martin, McKinley, Zelazny, Spider Robinson, Vance, Wolfe, Bellairs, Garrett, Davidson, and that at least five of the living in that list and one of the deceased consider or considered him both a friend and a worthy colleague. Many, many of the rest of us with lesser reputations feel the same way.
I happened to be staying at a luxury hotel at the same time as an sf convention was being held here. It was a sprawling place, but only had one restaurant on site that was open before evening cocktails time, so I visited it often, and on various visits saw Ed lunching with Hal Clement, Rob Sawyer, being asked to join her at breakfast by Connie Willis, and many others. I vividly recall Ed rescuing Harlan Ellison once at a con, when hed forgotten a word and was groping for it (Ed supplied it). I recall Ed shooting holes in a plot idea Isaac Asimov floated at a panel, and the two of them collapsing in laughter at Eds mimicry of how various editors would do said plot-holing in a far less friendly manner. The point is: Greenwood is a solid writer and a professional, and treated as such.
As has been said earlier in this thread, Eds work IS a level above most other Realms fiction. Not always, but its widespread professional (NOT Internet) habit to judge people by their best creative work, tempered by the majority of their output. By that measure, I say again: Ed Greenwood is writing on a higher level than most other Realms fiction.
To some extent every Realms writer stands on Eds creative shoulders because they use his locations and characters and all-encompassing world. Many of them have written or spoken at conventions about his swift and generous help in the way of maps or lore or character suggestions when they write their own Realms books. Others have been impressed with what he says at Worldcon and other panels (more than holding his own in the august company of such greats as Pratchett, LeGuin, Kay, Elizabeth Moon, Larry Niven, George R.R. Martin, Harry Harrison, Steven Spielberg, Vernor Vinge, Geoffrey Landis, Arthur C. Clarke, Poul Anderson, and on and on).
Ive said all of this before, and some people responded then with words like: Nuh-uh. I just dont see it.
To them I say:
Then, sorry, but trust me and all of these other people in the field: Im afraid theres something wrong with whatever youre using to see with.
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2004 : 18:49:35
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(sarcasm on)
Yes, The Simbul, you CLEARLY know SO much more about Mystra and Elminster and the Realms than the man who created them all - - AND wrote the classic Nine Hells articles in DRAGON Magazine, I might add. As well as the editors who approved the Elminster falls through the rift idea Troy Denning put in HIS novel, that ELMINSTER IN HELL started with.
I guess you manage this brilliance in spite of not having read EL IN HELL, or ELMINSTERS DAUGHTER either. In both of them, there are scenes where the former Midnight is shown trying to learn how to be Mystra, and so obviously hasnt full control of the powers and knowledge of the goddess yet (some of which is stored in Elminster, which is WHY SHES TRYING TO GET HIM BACK).
(sarcasm off)
Third Edition, Second Edition, First Edition - - who cares? This is the NOVELS part of Candlekeep, grrrr. And as Ed Greenwood has said many times: How can you be sure details of the gods are correct? How could any mortal be sure? I was at a GenCon panel where he hinted there were some big secrets about gods we dont know yet, and Mister Archer head of Books was on that panel and agreed. So cool it with the ha ha doesnt match the rules stuff already. Therell be a Fourth Edition soon, and it might all change again!
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2004 : 19:25:11
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I find the proportion of good stuff to be pretty constant between genres and subgenres and media and modes, and prefer to look down on incompetent work rather than any particular tribes. And on self-proclaimed internet 'reviewers', of course.
Of all the negative opinions I've read of Elminster in Hell, not one has been articulate enough to qualify as a review. Of those that go into any detail, the most common complaints are that the memories distract from the main story, that they are unrelated, and that the book is hard to follow. For those who haven't read the book, the memories are the main story as much as the action in hell is, and they are very much related causally and thematically to the framing narrative. Either these people are dimwits, or they've been trained by simple, single-protagonist, A-Z plots, or the sense of the novel is not strong enough, or it's not explicit enough. Since I didn't read the book with my editor's or critic's hat on, all I can say is that it bloody well worked for me.
Thanks for that, Sage of Stars, some of which I didn't know -- though I'm surprised to hear of literary quality used as a talking-up point in Hollywood. You're quite right about Ed not always bringing his plots to a tidy end. This is, of course, a characteristic and a merit of the Realms, and all Realms novels match the conflicting needs of beautiful, sef-contained, satisfying novel structure and a setting which says there is no single narrative, no single hero, no end. If only short stories, which don't have such a tyrannical structure as the commercial novel, were more commercial! We have some way to go before the merits of worldbuilding itself, let alone shared worlds, are understood by the widely heard critics. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2004 : 23:15:35
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quote:
Originally posted by The Simbul
quote:
Originally posted by Lameth
I think "The Simbul" told a joke....how the book could have ended.
Yes I was joking. Mystra has an INT of 45 and a WIS of 40, yet clearly doesnt act that way in much of the fiction she is presented in. She could have easily saved Elminster from the depths of Hell without so much as moving a fingertip out of her own divine realm on Dweomerheart.
Why are you using DnD stats to compare in novels? It's easiest way to ruin a novel, by trying hard to follow stats and game rules. If everytime we just look at ability score, nothing would ever happen.
Ex. Some demons and devils have like 25 Int while the average human is around 11. If you just go these kinda ability scores, then that means no human should ever outsmart a demon. How are you supposed to create good stories with such restricting rules then?
EDIT:
Also, the reason Mystra didn't just "pull Elminster" out of Hell was because Nergal had connected their minds together and took him captive. You are giving deities TOO MUCH credit. They are powerful, but they don't know everything. Even when Mystra went to the Nine Hells, she didn't even know where Elminster's exact location was. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
Edited by - DDH_101 on 11 Nov 2004 23:20:46 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2004 : 11:07:59
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I'll admit here, I didn't particularly care for the novel myself.
1) While very well written the style rubbed me the wrong way as well as the treatment of Torillian deities and Baator, as I show in #2...
2) I kept waiting and waiting and hopelessly waiting for Mystra to get her head handed to her in Baator. Greater deity or not, Baator got treated like the FR gods sandbox when rightfully Bel should have been moving the plane itself to smack Mystra around like a wimpy single sphere power that she is. And, if not Bel himself, any other deity in Baator should have been raising an eyebrow and taking some sort of action against either Mystra herself or her followers on the prime to make her rethink what was honestly a rash and foolhardy rush to action.
I thought the book overplayed the power of an FR deity, a larger scale 'Drizzt takes on 100 people and kills them all in two pages' sort of thing. My apologies to Salvatore (I've enjoyed and bought most of his books) but that's a perhaps common perception and Mystra pulled that one ten times over in El in Hell.
Granted I go with the Planescape'ish view of deities being powerful but confined to a sphere of influence in some ways, and Mystra was far FAR out of her normal range of influence and should have suffered the consequences.
Halaster's affecting the Lord of the 9th with a spell, any spell, was just silly. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Edited by - Shemmy on 15 Nov 2004 07:23:35 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2004 : 18:08:45
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First of all, there are no deities living in the Nine Hells...
It was all changed in the PGtF.
Second, no devil, with the exception of Lord Asmodeus should have the power to stand against a Greater Deity. There is nothing being "overplayed" here, as this is the true extent of a deity's power. If a lesser deity like Torm could wipe out a hundred pit fiends without breaking a sweat, imagine what Mystra could do. You cannot compare Drizzt with Mystra, as one is a mere mortal and one is a GOD.
Thirdly, Halaster didn't cast the spell, Mystra did. For some reason, everyone seems to make this mistake. The only part Halaster took in that spell was allowing Mystra to transfer his madness to Asmodeus. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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A Publishing Lackey
Seeker
74 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2004 : 18:34:04
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Shemmy, I have to disagree. You have your opinions about what a Realms deity should or shouldnt be able to do in Baator, and Greenwood has his. Hes the creator of the Realms, and the guy who first detailed the Nine Hells (one of the classical views of Hell, as refined by Dante and others from Jewish mythology, and chosen for the D&D game by Gary Gygax) as we gamers know them into D&D. Greenwoods the expert here, and - - sorry, I dont mean to be rude - - I dont know you from the next stranger around the gaming table at a convention.
ELMINSTER IN HELL is a Realms novel, and in the Realms, what Greenwood says, goes. That was specified when TSR bought the Realms back in 1986. So if Greenwood says Mystra can get that far into Avernus before (ahem) all Hell breaks loose and the devils start to gather against her, then Mystra CAN get that far into the Nine Hells.
It is written. (Joke.)
The Realms has its own cosmology, remember. The TSR designers who took Greenwoods notes for inclusion in Planescape (as explained in a very enjoyable Gencon seminar years back, where they ALSO said that Ed was heavily consulted when the Manual of the Planes was being written) went off in their own directions. The fact that rules governing planes other than the Prime Material have been written and rewritten completely at least five times now should tell you that youre on very shaky ground if you start quoting this or that sentence in a rulebook to justify your position.
To me, your post sounds like Trust me, I know Tolkien got this bit of Middle-Earth wrong. Sorry, no, Im not going to trust you. Instead, Im going to ask how, exactly, do you know?
P.S. You could ask Greenwood directly, in his own thread right here in this novels section. He seems to deal very politely with people who disagree with him, and the result might be a REALLY interesting answer for us all.
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2004 : 03:57:11
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I was totally amazed at Mystra's scouring of Hell. When the novel came out, I remember thinking that Tiamat was the lord of Avernus for some reason. Now that the Book of Vile Darkness is out, I can't imagine Bel getting involved with what I assumed was an avatar of Mystra, who is a wizard35/cleric20 on top of having divine powers. Bel would have been destroyed very quickly.
Why not send legion after legion of devils after Mystra? It's not like Hell will ever run out of devils.
I mean, can anyone imagine a million devils taking to the skies of Avernus to battle a goddess of magic? It truly is the single most epic and world-shattering moment in the FR library. The very fabric of Hell comes undone from her magical output! It's a gem. |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
Edited by - Crust on 16 Nov 2004 03:59:15 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2004 : 05:14:26
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Crust, devils WILL run out, especially if you throw them by the thousands at a goddess who won't run out of powers. The generals and lords of Hell aren't so foolish to battle a god. They still need armies for their own protection plus soldiers in the Blood War.
Let's say they do kill Mystra (very SLIM chance!) and return to Hell. You think the other gods will stand having one of their own killed by a bunch of low-life minions of Hell? The gods have rivalry and some hate others, but they would not hesitate to stand together to fight off the devils of the Nine Hells if it threatens the Faerunian pantheon. Letting the Goddess of Magic die doesn't do the other gods any good. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2004 : 05:34:33
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
First of all, there are no deities living in the Nine Hells...
It was all changed in the PGtF.
Second, no devil, with the exception of Lord Asmodeus should have the power to stand against a Greater Deity. There is nothing being "overplayed" here, as this is the true extent of a deity's power. If a lesser deity like Torm could wipe out a hundred pit fiends without breaking a sweat, imagine what Mystra could do. You cannot compare Drizzt with Mystra, as one is a mere mortal and one is a GOD.
It'll hardly make me popular here to express displeasure with El In Hell's treatment of the issue, but here I go. And I don't wish to derail this entire thread with my nitpicks on FR's cosmology either, I'll just state my case and leave it at that. Simply keep in mind that I'm coming from a different set of assumptions on the nature and power of the fiends in general than Greenwood did in his novel:
Much of my PoV is coming from a perspective of the Lords of the 9 and the interplay between gods and fiends as detailed in the wealth of Planescape material. FR having randomly assumed a new cosmology in 3e makes it difficult here since any two of us may be coming from wholly different spectrums of supporting material and assumptions.
PGtF splits off into a cosmology with the Faerunian pantheon as big fish in a small pond, as opposed to big fish in a tiny portion of an infinite ocean swimming with sharks and shadowy things lurking out of sight that have existed for longer than Toril was a spark in Ao's eyes. This presents problems from a strictly in game point of view from my take on things compared to say, Crust's.
As far as "no devil, with the exception of Lord Asmodeus should have the power to stand against a Greater Deity" well it's happened before and been very explicit about the fiend's having the upper hand in the matter. Planescape details Set and Sekolah's on and off warring with Prince Levistus, Lord of the 5th of Baator. By any measure, Levistus in one of the middle ranking members of the 9 in terms of power and influence amongst the Baatezu. It was made very clear that while Levistus was not a true deity, that Set's domain within Stygia was slowly shrinking due over the course of the conflict. Infer as you like to the extent of the Archdevil's connection with the fabric of his plane.
The entire Goblinoid and Orcish pantheons were summarily booted from the layer of Avernus in Baator by the Lords of the 9 due the fact that the warring of the two pantheons had begun to disrupt the Baatezu's activities on Avernus in the Blood War. Most of the associated pantheons eventually ended up in Acheron where their warrign continues unabated but without being a bother to the devils.
It's established beyond doubt that the fiends in general predate the arrival of deities upon the outer planes.
True deities do not participate in the Blood War, though they gleefully did in the early days of the conflict. Eventually it seems that all of the deity's involved began to notice that their own deific essence was fragmenting, fraying at the edges, and disappating. This continued slowly but surely until an unnamed and forgotten deity of chaos died as his divine essence collapsed upon itself. At that juncture deities summarily removed themselves from the conflict and when they did the problem they had all felt ceased immediately. Either some intrinsic nature of deities began the problem and led to that, or most likely the fiends (likely Yugoloths, or their own progenitors the Baern) had begun to express their displeasure in the meddling of the divine by a wholesale slaughter of the gods' mortal worshippers on the prime. This eventually led to the death of at least one deity.
And, let us not forget that Khin-Oin in the Gray Waste is carved from the spine of a god killed by fiends, nor that the foundation stones of the city of Abiormach in Baator are said to be laid upon the corpse of a god killed by the Lords of the 9 or Asmodeus.
I'm not coming to my opinion based on game mechanics or divine rank, but rather the story of the lower planes from such sources as 'Hellbound: The Blood War' and several other of the Planescape box sets. For all of El in Hell's good points such as its general use of locations on the planes, or that from a technical level it certainly isn't a linear plotline really, the novel really does take a perspective that FR's gods exist in a vacuum and it really reinforced them as really far too powerful and influenctial when you look at the preceeding material that I am.
I wouldn't complain if Elminster in Hell hadn't seemed, at least to me, as backing up the perspectives and precepts of the PGtF with regard to Toril's cosmology. I really, really don't like it for a number of reasons, not the least of which involve FRs 'we're too cool for the Great Wheel all of a sudden' cosmology cherry picking planes from the Great Wheel to use exactly as they exist in the GW except that they'd not be the same planes as the GW, really, and that they'd have FR specific constraints applied to them while the context and background for much of their inhabitants was stripped raw. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2004 : 05:46:14
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Crust, devils WILL run out, especially if you throw them by the thousands at a goddess who won't run out of powers. The generals and lords of Hell aren't so foolish to battle a god. They still need armies for their own protection plus soldiers in the Blood War.
Let's say they do kill Mystra (very SLIM chance!) and return to Hell. You think the other gods will stand having one of their own killed by a bunch of low-life minions of Hell? The gods have rivalry and some hate others, but they would not hesitate to stand together to fight off the devils of the Nine Hells if it threatens the Faerunian pantheon. Letting the Goddess of Magic die doesn't do the other gods any good.
Baator = Infinite number of fiends. Mystra or any other god has better things than to park themselves in Avernus and kill baatezu all day. Eventually the Baatezu will get tired of it, the gods in Baator will tire of it, and gods outside of Baator but owing any level of allegience to the 'zu will tire of it as well.
It's in the best interest of the deitys on any plane populated by fiends to allow the fiends to do largely as they please and exist as god-neutral rulers of the plane at large, it keeps a balanced playing field for the deities with domains on those planes. And a god breaking the status quo is going to have a large portion of other deity's taking action against them to restore it.
The Lords of the 9 could afford to hurl billions of fiends at almost anything and not have it impact their progress in the Blood War by any appreciable amount. The scale of the Blood War makes Toril's population look like a grain of sand on an infinite beach, it humbles it by comparison. One way or another they'd simply find a way to eject Mystra from their plane and be done with it.
And honestly I do think one of the good points in Elminster in Hell was the use of Baatezu directly threating Toril to dissuade Mystra from interfering on a plane she wasn't welcome in. While I might not agree on the cause of it (I'd see that as a deliberate act by the Dark 8, funneling Baatezu to the prime material to prove to a deity just how unwanted its actions were and that they'd literally pave Toril with their armies if she didn't cease her actions in Avernus). |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2004 : 15:31:33
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Reasoned arguments, Shemmy, but youre ignoring A Publishing Lackeys post. You seem to be speaking as an expert on Planescape, the Realms, FR deities, and the Nine Hells and implying Ed Greenwood got things wrong. Well, Greenwood created two of those and had a hand in designing the other two, and you didnt. (Hey, he even did Greyhawk design work.) So when the two of you disagree, I go with him.
I attended a great GenCon seminar years back, when (according to my notes) Steven Schend told us that Every race and deity participating in the Blood War claims different reasons for doing so and victories or achievements that the others dispute, so Prime Material mortals can never learn much in the way of truth about these matters planar.
Sorta shoots holes in your I know the Lords of the 9 will do this or that arguments, in my opinion.
So Im going to echo APL: go ask Ed Greenwood in his Questions thread why he got this wrong or that wrong. Then we can ALL read and learn. This sniping by mysterious experts is kinda cheap.
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2004 : 16:10:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
Reasoned arguments, Shemmy, but youre ignoring A Publishing Lackeys post. You seem to be speaking as an expert on Planescape, the Realms, FR deities, and the Nine Hells and implying Ed Greenwood got things wrong. Well, Greenwood created two of those and had a hand in designing the other two, and you didnt. (Hey, he even did Greyhawk design work.) So when the two of you disagree, I go with him.
I attended a great GenCon seminar years back, when (according to my notes) Steven Schend told us that Every race and deity participating in the Blood War claims different reasons for doing so and victories or achievements that the others dispute, so Prime Material mortals can never learn much in the way of truth about these matters planar.
Sorta shoots holes in your I know the Lords of the 9 will do this or that arguments, in my opinion.
Don't mean to be 'cheap' here and I will actually take up your suggestion and post a question on that other thread just to see why he took one take on Baator over another, etc. It should be interesting to at least see where he was coming from.
I'm not claiming to be an expert on the Realms, far from it, I didn't start playing DnD till 3e and I've only read a fraction of the 2e or earlier FR material that I'd love to get my hands on. As far as Planescape stuff goes, I'll claim a working knowledge of it at least. You're welcome to get take a look at my stuff over on Planewalker for 3e PS if you'd like.
Sure Ed wrote the Dragon article that formed the basis for the 9 Hells, but as conceptualized in that article it has been altered and refined fairly significantly since that time, most notably in the various PS products related to Baator, the Blood War, etc. It's been a very long time since I read his article however so I can't really state much more than that.
FWIW, and no disrespect meant at all, Steve Schend didn't write any PS material, so as much as I respect his work in FR (Hellgate Keep was very cool), he's as much an expert on the Blood War as I am or you are.
If it'll help my arguments at all I can reference which PS books I'm pulling in here as sources for my take on the matter. Though again, the argument may eventually boil down to two PoVs using two different sources for their arguments. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Some questions about Elminster in Hell
