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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Nov 2004 : 16:58:28
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| And one of those sources is Realmslore, and the other is the conventions of Planescape which were made up independently from the Realms, with a different sensibility, and for different purposes. Asking a Realms novel to be like Planescape rather than the Realms is perverse, no? (It's like if Robert E. Howard came back from the dead and wrote new Conan stories, and someone objected that they didn't match the Marvel Comics continuity.) |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2004 : 17:22:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
And one of those sources is Realmslore, and the other is the conventions of Planescape which were made up independently from the Realms, with a different sensibility, and for different purposes. Asking a Realms novel to be like Planescape rather than the Realms is perverse, no?
If it had happened on Toril I wouldn't be complaining, but it happened in sodding Baator. No, if a Realms novel uses a plane that was developed and fleshed out in its majority in PS sources, is it absurd to expect some level of adherance to the precepts and sensibilities of them?
And on that note I think we've reached the extent of agreement we might possibly get, so go ahead and make your reply to my points here if you like, and after that we can let it drop. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2004 : 18:04:43
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| The book is not Elminster in Baator, though, it's Elminster in Hell. (And it is, as well as a piece of continuity a novel, in which Elminster is mentally in hell, not in 'baator', whatever that would be.) |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2004 : 18:05:19
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| Okay, NOW I see where you’re coming from, Shemmy. You aren’t familiar with most 2nd Edition sources. Just for the record: Steven Schend designed the Blood War collectible card game for TSR, so he is THE expert on the Blood War, not ‘not better than thou or I.’ :} |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2004 : 19:55:16
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I think we need to think about the idea that even though the great Greenwood is the tip of the FR spear, I think he might be content to let his readers make their own assumptions and interpretations.
The fact that we have an "Ask Ed Greenwood" thread is a luxury I am very thankful for, but I doubt any author would like the idea of his/her words being the final, end-of-all-discussion word on any matter concerning his/her work. I think Shemmy's observations lend to the living, breathing world of FR, and that's the way the authors want it, in my opinion. Of course, for me, Greenwood's word is law on all matters FR.
We have to remember that El in Hell was released, I believe, in the same month that the 3E PHB was released, several months before the FRCS, and years before the PGtF. It's completely understandable that 2E fans would delve into their sources for the answers they crave, and in the absence of solid evidence, the reader will fill in the blanks with intuition and imagination.
If I were an author (a distant dream of mine), I'd encourage that type of search for knowledge. |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2004 : 22:06:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
Okay, NOW I see where you’re coming from, Shemmy. You aren’t familiar with most 2nd Edition sources. Just for the record: Steven Schend designed the Blood War collectible card game for TSR, so he is THE expert on the Blood War, not ‘not better than thou or I.’ :}
Well you learn something every day, thank you. I wasn't aware that he designed that game. Never played it, though I have the cards mostly for the DiTerlizzi artwork on them. The Blood War game was pure adapted Planescape FWIW. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2004 : 00:36:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Crust, devils WILL run out, especially if you throw them by the thousands at a goddess who won't run out of powers. The generals and lords of Hell aren't so foolish to battle a god. They still need armies for their own protection plus soldiers in the Blood War.
Let's say they do kill Mystra (very SLIM chance!) and return to Hell. You think the other gods will stand having one of their own killed by a bunch of low-life minions of Hell? The gods have rivalry and some hate others, but they would not hesitate to stand together to fight off the devils of the Nine Hells if it threatens the Faerunian pantheon. Letting the Goddess of Magic die doesn't do the other gods any good.
Baator = Infinite number of fiends. Mystra or any other god has better things than to park themselves in Avernus and kill baatezu all day. Eventually the Baatezu will get tired of it, the gods in Baator will tire of it, and gods outside of Baator but owing any level of allegience to the 'zu will tire of it as well.
It's in the best interest of the deitys on any plane populated by fiends to allow the fiends to do largely as they please and exist as god-neutral rulers of the plane at large, it keeps a balanced playing field for the deities with domains on those planes. And a god breaking the status quo is going to have a large portion of other deity's taking action against them to restore it.
The Lords of the 9 could afford to hurl billions of fiends at almost anything and not have it impact their progress in the Blood War by any appreciable amount. The scale of the Blood War makes Toril's population look like a grain of sand on an infinite beach, it humbles it by comparison. One way or another they'd simply find a way to eject Mystra from their plane and be done with it.
And honestly I do think one of the good points in Elminster in Hell was the use of Baatezu directly threating Toril to dissuade Mystra from interfering on a plane she wasn't welcome in. While I might not agree on the cause of it (I'd see that as a deliberate act by the Dark 8, funneling Baatezu to the prime material to prove to a deity just how unwanted its actions were and that they'd literally pave Toril with their armies if she didn't cease her actions in Avernus).
Shemmy, there's no INFINITE number of devils, just a lot. If there is infinite, then the devils would have won the Blood War long ago. The only reason it's been a deadlock for millienias is because the demons have a larger number but no strategies, while the devils have a SMALLER number, but more organized. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2004 : 03:06:25
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Shemmy, there's no INFINITE number of devils, just a lot. If there is infinite, then the devils would have won the Blood War long ago. The only reason it's been a deadlock for millienias is because the demons have a larger number but no strategies, while the devils have a SMALLER number, but more organized.
Baator derives more baatezu from a subset of the souls from the prime material, those being LE. The prime is infinite. Therefor the number of souls from the prime material is infinite. A subset of an infinite number is still an infinite number, therefor the number of baatezu is infinite.
However, that said, you can have infinities that are considered larger than others. Infinity +1 is not larger than infinity, however 2^infinity is considered larger than infinity for instance. In a similar manner are Tanar'ri considered to have a larger population than baatezu, or a larger infinite subset of infinity if you look at the prime for the source of their raw numbers. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2004 : 03:26:03
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Geez, now we're into infinity semantics! 
Hmm, Shemmy, you make it sound (“pure adapted Planescape”) as if Mr. Schend came along after Planescape was published, picked up an established set of rules, and made them into a card game.
TSR was a very small place, with almost all of the designers working in cubicles crammed together in (according to Mr. Bruce Heard, Acquisitions Manager of TSR then) “a space a little bit bigger than a basketball court.” So if Mr. Schend wasn’t part of the Planescape design group, he would have seen them every day in the washrooms, cafeteria, parking lot, etc.
Once he was given the Blood Wars card game assignment, Mr. Schend would have seen all the Planescape designers daily, and met with them whenever he wanted to (he was an editor, and might even have been part of the Planescape team, because, as I say, he was at the seminar).
At a far more recent GenCon Realms seminar, one of WotC’s managers (Valterra? sp?) said that the Planescape cosmology grew until it didn’t “fit” any of the established worlds, and had to be changed for 3e, and the decision then was to “keep the original Realms cosmology for the Realms.” He said this in response to someone asking if the Chris Pramas Hell material was “official” for WotC (it wasn’t).
So you’re basically criticizing Ed Greenwood for not changing to something later decreed ‘unofficial,’ but sticking with the same thing all along. You say you kept waiting for Mystra to get her head handed to her - - well, read the book: that’s exactly what DOES happen to her.
Your posts here sound like you’ve settled on some (a few) Planescape rulebooks as being “the truth” and are disagreeing with other posters here, and with Ed Greenwood’s writing in his El in Hell novel, as being “wrong” because they conflict with what you’ve read.
I’m saying that you’re taking a run at THE reigning expert on the Realms and Mystra and the Nine Hells and Asmodeus and Avernus and insisting he got it wrong, and I don’t think that’s a credible argument for most scribes at Candlekeep, not just me.
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Edited by - Blueblade on 17 Nov 2004 03:40:11 |
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Sage of Stars
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2004 : 03:37:15
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Shemmy, you posted these words:
“. . . if a Realms novel uses a plane that was developed and fleshed out in its majority in PS sources. . .”
Just which Realms novel would that be?
Certainly not ELMINSTER IN HELL, because Ed Greenwood wrote pages and pages of material published in issues 75, 76, and 91 of DRAGON Magazine, plus (to quote Kim Mohan, editor of DRAGON at the time) “reams and reams of stuff we couldn’t publish because of management fears of Bible Belt trouble” that later got handed to the Planescape designers (yes, Blueblade, I was at that GenCon seminar, too) to use when developing Hell. So the home planes of the devils were “developed and fleshed out” by Ed Greenwood more than by anyone else, by a long shot.
Jeff Grubb used Ed as a consultant when he wrote the Manual of the Planes (the first one, not the 3e one, though a recent GenCon seminar revealed that Greenwood was consulted for that second one, too).
Sorry, but I think you’re trying to push an argument that just won’t fly.
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2004 : 04:34:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Stars
Shemmy, you posted these words:
“. . . if a Realms novel uses a plane that was developed and fleshed out in its majority in PS sources. . .”
Just which Realms novel would that be?
Certainly not ELMINSTER IN HELL
The 'hell' as published in those very early Dragon magazines has loads of material that has simply gone by the wayside since then. Compare Baator in 2e and 3e compared to then and get back to me. I'm sorry, but the depth of material as presented in PS on Baator eclipses a dragon article from, what the 70s or 80s, that by and large isn't wholly relevant to the plane as conceptualized by a litany of later authors and designers. I haven't seen or read any of Ed's unpublished material on the plane, nor have you I figure, so we can't exactly vouch for it in much fashion, nor can it be really be used in the argument. It would have the same firm standing on Baator as my own campaign storyhour would have on Yugoloth politics. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2004 : 04:46:55
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Again, we've reached an impasse and I doubt you or I will change anyone's opinion on the matter. I find the conceptualization of Baator as detailed in a wide swath of Planescape books to have been better detailed and better written while others of you find Greenwood's early Dragon article and the Baator as re-envisioned for 'Elminster in Hell' to be superior.
I'm entitled to my opinion on the matter, and you're certainly free to hold your own different opinion. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2004 : 04:56:08
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Okay guys,
Leave Shemmy alone and I do sort of agree with some of her points. Yes, I love Ed's stuff but his article had been changed with Planescape and Ed has said it himself repeatedly, "My stuff is canon unless TSR/WOTC changes it." So please back off on trying to correct Shemmy. :) She knows her planar lore and like most of us she owns almost, except for one sourcebook, I believe, all of the Planescape sourcebooks/box sets/modules, and so yes most of us were basing our opinions about that novel on the Planescape material and not on that years old article Ed wrote. And at the time that book was written, I believe, the BOVD hadn't been out to say the Nine were not deities, etc. :)
So again, I ask for you all to just get off her back about it. We like Ed, but even Ed makes mistakes or his works get changed. :) |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2004 : 05:21:34
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Let's see. While Ed may have certainly done a lot of work in fleshing out Hell in 1E, as Kuje and Shemmy have stated, things have been reworked or thrown out since then with PS shaping things. It's really pretentious of any of us to allude to information that may have once been printed that was written by Ed, or some secret knowledge that some designers might have (Steven Schend, in this case, who I will say is my favorite FR designer along with Ed), so all that leaves us with is what has already been printed.
And what we have printed is in Planes of Law and the like, and A Guide to Hell, which put Asmodeus as a Greater God. True, in 3E he may not specifically be a deity, but can anyone really look at the writeup for Asmodeus and the other Dukes as anything more than a joke?
All in all, the gripe about the novel is really a gripe about the 3E cosmology in general, and what it did to the Planes (Baator/Hell) and the inhabitants in it. Those of us who are satisfied with the Great Tree or using 1E Cosmology mechanics (or Greenwood lore before PS was established) may see nothing wrong with what happened in the novel, but those who are taking into account a more 2E/Planescape view obviously can see the discrepencies.
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Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2004 : 10:53:52
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I personally think this whole 'discussion' is a matter of viewpoint. Ed (and all the best Realms writers - novel and gaming) write IN the Realms first, and OUTSIDE of it, second. In other words, if it's good for the Realms it doesn't have to be good for Planescape, or Greyhawk, or Dragonlance, or Uncle Joe's Best Campaign World Ever (4E) TM.
The story or gaming stuff has its genesis in the Realms, adds to the Realms, finishes in the Realms - hence "Hell" in the Realms, IMHO, should be what fits best for the Realms. If that means that it doesn't gel perfectly with previous Planescape material or whatever, then that's unfortunate, but certainly not going to tarnish my FR enjoyment or experience.
I know there are many fans out there who dabble in lots of settings - but I don't think that every writer for a specific, non-generic gameworld should have to match up with the other setting when it intersects (usually to a minor degree) with the vehicle and campaign setting they are actually being paid to write about. Whilst most DMs have tried a planehopping, multi-campaign world mega-campaign at some time, I wouldn't think that something like "Elminster in Hell" would be the monkey wrench that puts the smackdown on their creativity or gaming enjoyment. If so, all that pent up angst and frustration will do you no good at all ...
Planescape could be considered to be all-encompassing given the planar flavour of every currently published campaign world. But when I read something where someone says that "X" didn't write a "good/great/fantastic" FR novel/gaming product because they didn't match it with this setting - when I know, that issue aside, that the work in question gave me lots of FR pleasure and rang my "Realms bells" - I simply feel that such issues are irrelevant. If I was a hardcore, combination Planescape/FR fan (ala Sage) I might feel a bit peeved, but with respect to that august member of these halls and Shemmy, I want to read about the Realms and I don't care that it doesn't match up to other stuff.
When someone writes good FR stuff FOR the FR setting it is never wrong, misconceived or in error. It's simply wonderful!
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2004 : 18:14:55
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Krashos makes some wonderful points. First and foremost, it was an FR novel, and more specifically, a 3E FR novel, which meant that it gelled perfectly with the cosmology/Planar beings as presented in 3E (and 1E, perhaps), and so there's really nothing to be upset about... If you believe in that planar point of view. Many of us who have played in 2E and read more 2E novels certainly know that even in that edition, things always didn't add up to how things were described in Planescape.
Dragonlance, anyone? Khisanth the black dragon visiting the "Abyss" and seeing Abishai and Lemures? And then meeting Fraaz Urb'lu on the Quasielemental Plane of Lightning?
So, if it offends one senses, you can always chalk it up to simply this: "Haha, those silly Primes!" ;) Mystra didn't really "win." The whole thing was a setup by Asmodeus to keep the Dukes busy and on their toes because they had been growing lax in their cruel depravities that normally distract them from his Master Plan (tm)...
And technically, by all means, there is nothing that can say, canonically, that this was -not- the truth. That's part of the fun of 2E cosmology.. The ambiguity.
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Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2004 : 18:46:04
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I personally think this whole 'discussion' is a matter of viewpoint.
It really does. You've got good points all around there, but I think you sum this all up with that one line. I'm simply on the other side of fence from many others here since while I'm a huge fan of FR, I'm first and foremost a PS fan and one sensibility ran counter in a few ways to the other when I read the novel.
Don't get me wrong, when I look for material set on Toril I can't look for much better than Ed's material, and I've heavily used portions of FR in my own campaign since half the PCs are from that sphere. I just personally prefer the wider aspects of the planes most of the times, and my main source of inspiration regarding them stems more from the 2e Planescape material than anything else (not that I don't happily break my toys there in the process of the campaign metaplot). |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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The Simbul
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2004 : 23:05:57
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quote:
Yes, The Simbul, you CLEARLY know SO much more about Mystra and Elminster and the Realms than the man who created them all - - AND wrote the classic Nine Hells articles in DRAGON Magazine, I might add. As well as the editors who approved the “Elminster falls through the rift” idea Troy Denning put in HIS novel, that ELMINSTER IN HELL started with…snip…So cool it with the “ha ha doesn’t match the rules” stuff already. There’ll be a Fourth Edition soon, and it might all change again!
First and foremost, I have never faulted Greenwood, or Denning, or the editors of any novels that have seen print after the release of 3rd edition for the content of those novels not intrinsically matching up with the rules as written. Specifically since the 3rd edition rules for the realms, as well as supplemental sourcebooks detailing various elements in those novels (the shadow weave, the phaerimm, the powers of the gods) were not set down into their final rules forms until long after those novels were either published, or at the very least long after much of their conceptualization of the plot and story elements were already written.
That said, re-creating the events of 1371-1372 DR presented in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy, the Elminster in Hell interlude, and as briefly summarized in the Players Guide to Faerun campaign journal, in a 3.5 campaign or through the lens of the 3.5 game rules, is next to impossible without severe suspension of the imagination or the implementation of ad-hoc Rule 0/explanations by the DM to make the events as they appear in novels and actual abilities and traits presented in the rulebooks more interchangeable.
Hence the reason my previously posted alternate satire plot sequence is predicated on being viewed through the lens of the 3rd edition rules. As such explaining the events of Elminster in Hell through the 3.5 rules must take all of the following into consideration:
Fact: via remote sensing Mystra can perceive anything within 18 miles of any of her worshippers, holy sites, holy objects, any location where her names or title is spoken in the last hour, or anyplace where a portfolio related event takes place. Nothing short of the direct intervention of another deity of equal or greater rank can block Mystra’s ability to do so.
The first piece of dialogue in Elminster in Hell, short of the Simbul’s introductory letter speaking to the reader, is Elminster uttering the word “Mystra”. Given the extent to which Mystra values Elminster, and the amount of her own divine power invested in him, I am pretty damn sure that if Elminster called her name in a moment of desperation, she would immediately take heed and listen.
Fact: Mystra senses any working of the Art 18 tendays before it happens and retains that sensation for 18 tendays after it happens. Any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural power used on Toril that isn’t being employed by a Shadow Weave spellcaster, or inherently psionic in nature, is considered the Art for purposes of Mystra’s portfolio sense. Unlike the remote sensing ability of a deity mentioned above, there isn’t any listed ability or power that a rival deity can use to block another deities ability to sense events related to her portfolio. Which means even if Shar or some other equal and opposing deity was blocking Mystra’s ability to locate Elminster through remote sensing, Mystra would still be well aware of the events that occur at Elminster’s tower on 30 Nightal, the Year of the Unstrung Harp, specifically Storm’s Silverfire mixing with a Shadow Weave spell and tearing a rift through the fabric of Toril (which incidentally also doesn’t occur by the rules), and that certainly would have caught her attention.
In addition, for much of the opening of EiH, Elminster is still drawing upon the Weave when casting his spells, for the rift between Toril allows him access to it. Thus Mystra will also have sensed her most powerful Chosen using all of his magic to seal a rift between worlds as well.
Fact: When a Deity casts a Miracle spell, the outcome is effectively only limited by their own discretion, and for all intents and purposes any Miracles that go above and beyond what the spell can normally accomplish is limited only by the discretion of the DM. However, even a standard Wish or Miracle spell cast by a mortal being is more than capable of transporting beings through all obstacles, local effects, and magical/planar barriers to their desired location. Its also well within the power of a Miracle to remove all magical taints and harmful spells upon a given being, or to fully restore them to their proper health and condition (mentally and physically). Mystra is a Divine Rank 18, Wiz20/Lor10/Acm5/Clr20, who in addition to being able to cast Miracle and Wish spells, can also emulate even more powerful effects of such spells through Alter Reality without expending any XP, or having the effects be subject to SR, Antimagic, or other minor inconveniences.
From the moment she realizes there is something wrong with Elminster, there is absolutely no power, ability, or capacity that a minor exiled devil would be capable of wielding that should be able to prevent Mystra from absconding Elminster to safety, and she doesn’t even have to enter Avernus to do it.
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I guess you manage this brilliance in spite of not having read EL IN HELL, or ELMINSTER’S DAUGHTER either. In both of them, there are scenes where the former Midnight is shown trying to learn how to be Mystra, and so obviously hasn’t full control of the powers and knowledge of the goddess yet (some of which is stored in Elminster, which is WHY SHE’S TRYING TO GET HIM BACK).
I am fully aware of how Midnight is portrayed in the novels, hence the reason I illuminated the discrepancy between her actual Intelligence and Wisdom scores and how she is portrayed in the novels in a far less knowledgeable fashion. I would also like to point out that even according to 2nd edition sourcebook material such as Faiths and Avatars, which was reviewed by Ed as well as others before seeing print, Mystra, who is now Midnight, is still portrayed as Greater Deity, with access to all the powers and abilities associated with such a rank. I imagine if Midnight was intended to be a witless barmaid who just happened to have the Weave portfolio, then they probably would have mentioned something to that effect in her description in that 1996 sourcebook.
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Third Edition, Second Edition, First Edition - - who cares? This is the NOVELS part of Candlekeep, grrrr.
Probably because the novels exist to promote a campaign setting, whose primary publication purpose is to be a backdrop for D&D games, and not the other way around, and also because both novels and sourcebooks are listed jointly under the sub section of this forums under FR products. If you personally wish to place more value on the novels than the sourcebooks, and simultaneously get all bent out of shape because someone made a comment assuming equivalence between the two, then be my guest.
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And as Ed Greenwood has said many times: “How can you be sure details of the gods are correct? How could any mortal be sure?” I was at a GenCon panel where he hinted there were some big secrets about gods we don’t know yet, and Mister Archer head of Books was on that panel and agreed.
I am fully aware and expect to see caveats about beings of power not having all of their talents, abilities, and features “yet fully revealed”, yet I fail to see how future disclosures about the powers of a God would detract (that is, make them weaker) than they have already been described, unless we are going over the hump of an all new rules edition. Generally caveats about “so and so may possess powers yet unrevealed, even to themselves” is usually meant to imply they may gain something in a future edition, not that their powers will be detracted from. The Mystra described on pages 51-52 of Faiths and Pantheons has far more power, wit, and capacities at her disposal than she is often portrayed as possessing in the novels.
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The Simbul
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2004 : 23:16:44
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Ex. Some demons and devils have like 25 Int while the average human is around 11. If you just go these kinda ability scores, then that means no human should ever outsmart a demon. How are you supposed to create good stories with such restricting rules then?
Yes but Elminster is not an average human. Without active spells or magic items, he has an INT score of 27. His Int score could actually be as high as 30 if he actually received all the level dependent ability score adjustments normally afforded to a character with 35 levels/hitdice. Asmodeuous, who is the greatest of all devils, has an Int of 30, and thus I am willing to bet the likes of Nergal doesn’t have an Int too high above Elminster’s, assuming that they would even have exceeded his.
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Also, the reason Mystra didn't just "pull Elminster" out of Hell was because Nergal had connected their minds together and took him captive. You are giving deities TOO MUCH credit.
I can’t imagine a single spell in the entire D&D universe, that Toril’s most prominent Deity of Magic would be incapable of undoing. Specifically since Wishes and Miracles can undo practically every spell in the game, since Mystra can invent and research upwards of 20 new spells each round as a free-action, and can even sunder artifacts without employing any of her divine abilities.quote:
They are powerful, but they don't know everything. Even when Mystra went to the Nine Hells, she didn't even know where Elminster's exact location was.
Yes and that is the problem, by her own abilities described in the sourcebooks, barring the intervention of another Deity, Mystra would have known exactly where Elminster was. Furthermore, you don’t need to know someone’s location to summon them with a Gate, nor do you need to know someone’s location to bring them to you through a Wish spell or similar effect.
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2004 : 23:55:51
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Ah, it's so sad how much 3E has messed up the Planes/the Dukes. Reading all of that just reinforces that fact. Other gods feared the Dukes in 2E for a reason... Because their might was as supreme in their domains as Gods' were in theirs. It was simply outside of those domains that they weren't practically divine beings.
Silly edition changes. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2004 : 02:17:33
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Ah, it's so sad how much 3E has messed up the Planes/the Dukes. Reading all of that just reinforces that fact. Other gods feared the Dukes in 2E for a reason... Because their might was as supreme in their domains as Gods' were in theirs. It was simply outside of those domains that they weren't practically divine beings.
Silly edition changes.
Ah but you can't deny the munchkins the ability to kill anything and everything, after all, they're the "heroes". Thusly the archfiends, be they Lords of the 9, members of the Dark 8, Abyssal Lords, or Yugoloths older than the gods themselves, they can't be too much beyond a level 20'something PC to gank and loot for the epic kewl lewt they deserve. 
Heavens no, the archfiends shouldn't be trouble for PCs, much less gods, powers forbid the lower planes' native inhabitants have some level of competance.
*sigh* Silly edition changes indeed. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2004 : 19:24:11
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| I like you, Shemmy. Can I add you to a messenger? :D |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2004 : 19:53:59
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
I like you, Shemmy. Can I add you to a messenger? :D
Be my guest  |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2004 : 15:32:24
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Hello, scribes. A question directing Ed Greenwood’s attention to this thread was asked on the “Questions for Ed Greenwood” thread. His (polite as always, folks, so have no worries) reply is now posted at the end of Page 70 of that thread, for interested scribes to peruse.
love to all,
THO
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2004 : 15:53:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hello, scribes. A question directing Ed Greenwood’s attention to this thread was asked on the “Questions for Ed Greenwood” thread. His (polite as always, folks, so have no worries) reply is now posted at the end of Page 70 of that thread, for interested scribes to peruse.
love to all,
THO
Well met
Thank ye, Hooded One, for delivering this scroll. I think if Ed hasn't covered everything in his response, then it simply can't exist
The scroll in question is here. |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Some questions about Elminster in Hell
