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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 08:32:29
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At one time or another, we've all thought about altering some of the concepts behind the pantheons of the Realms (or whatever setting you happen to be campaigning in), and some of us (including myself) have run FR adventures using a completely alternate pantheon.
So, while this question is dedicated to FR in general, and D&D in particular, what I'm really trying to determine is that when you do dabble with the idea of creating your own mythology, how far do you stray from that Generic Pantheon model that I like to call the "Big 12" -
1. God of Nature
2. God of Fire
3. God of Weather (Rain, Storm, Thunder, Wind, Winter)
4. God of War
5. God of Love
6. God of Evil (Hate)
7. God of the Sea (Water)
8. God of Death (Darkness, Dead, Underworld)
9. God of the Sky or Heavens (Air)
10. God of the Sun (Light, Dawn)
11. God of Knowledge
12. God of Chance/Vice (Including Thieves, Fate, Gambling, Luck, Good Fortune)
I'm sure that everyone's idea of the Big 12 has been (at one time or another) a little different (there may have even be more/less than 12) but I'm thinking that we all recognize the general pattern. How far do you stray from it, and do you think its a good idea to stray far from this as a list?
Obviously, there are reasons many world mythologies hit on these 12: they incorporate basic feelings, experiences, or elemental forces that many of the peoples deal with from time to time. Are they all (or for that matter, any) essential to the functioning of a campaign society? If you were to merge certain portfolios what's the least number you can have and still feel the pantheon "works"?
Have you ever tried to envision a setting where none of the Major Gods would be of the Big 12 (not including the racial gods, which is an entirely different concept)? It would follow that there would have to be reasons why the "obvious" choices wouldn't merit the myths and beliefs of the culture (for instance, I don't believe the Underdark pays much attention to Weather, Sky or Sun Deities).
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 08:59:51
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I think it depends upon the world.
I also don't stick to the Big 12-I just build it as needed, and make sure things fit together well. I pay plenty of attention to the family tree of deities, for some reason.
For a world that necessitated a pantheon similar to the Faerunian, I ended up with the following:
God of Family, Healing
Goddess of Trickery, Illusion
God of Law, War, the Sun(1)
Goddess of Law, Protection, Knowledge(1)
God of Animals
God of Death, the Moon, Time
Goddess of Plants, Water
God of Travel, Luck
Goddess of Knowledge, Magic, Air
1: Why aren't these two the same god, as they both represent Law? Because they represent different aspects.
I do think deviation would be a good thing, as this next example probably shows:
It's a pantheon based upon the growing together of the racial deities of a group of nations growing together themselves. The pantheon's members, however, do not have much power outside of their areas. In this aspect, it more resembles a group of loosely-connected monotheistic religions(if you understand):
Goddess of Cold and Crafts
God of Fire and the Sun
Goddess of Water and the Earth
God of Light and the Sun
Goddess of Nature
God of Air, Light, and the Sun
God of Nature
In this case, the items being dealt with are decreased significantly. Indeed, the worshiper's choice is very dictated by his region. |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 09:08:08
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| The smallest pantheon (not to be obvious) would include two gods. For me, there would be a god of nature (independent forces existing in their own right) and a deity encomposing all social and emotional factors (those dependent on the worshippers for definition). The first would be associated with Nature, Fire, Weather, Sea, Death, Sky, Sun, and Chance. The latter would be War, Love, and Knowledge. Evil's on the fence, as it can be seen as a primal force as well as an expression of sentience. Either way, the second god would be subordinate to the first, as their power is less eternal and reliable. Many aren't necesary as gods, but their portfolio should be included, perhaps as aspects of another immortal. I find that the fewer gods there are, the less personal they become. A large portfolio makes a god somewhat difficult to define, whereas specific qualities add flavor. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 09:11:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
God of Law, War, the Sun(1)
Goddess of Law, Protection, Knowledge(1)
[...]
1: Why aren't these two the same god, as they both represent Law? Because they represent different aspects.
I've created a deity using a model similar to this, although it had three aspects, and was based mostly on Shekinester, the Three-Faced. It followed a law-based portfolio reflecting firstly the principle of active destruction (the aspect that destroys existing law and order to make room for change and evolution). Secondly, the aspect that brings disparate strands of law and order together to create new understandings. And thirdly, the final aspect is the great maintainer, the keeper who balances the force of law in all it's aspects.
It's convoluted I know, but that's just a consequence of living on Gateway.
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Edited by - The Sage on 19 Jul 2004 09:12:34 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 09:12:29
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For the Jack Archer novel I'm trying to prepare for (grg -- I really need another name!), I had a similar idea. However, I wanted to blur the lines between good and evil -- mostly because this was not a world with divine magic. This is just a pagan religion for the place Jack ends up in. Anyway, one of the things I did was instead of having a god of death, I have a goddess of the life cycle -- who ends up as a pretty chaotic being, pictured as several different images, such as a six-year-old child, a barely pubescent girl, all the way to a crone on her deathbed. She also has some aspects of the natural world in her, but more because she's a goddess of cycles rather than a nature goddess. (She's also a goddess of women and the moon, obviously.)
The absolute least amount I ever invisioned for a story was six. This was a pantheon (if you can call six a pantheon) for a tribal people who lived close with nature. This was based on the idea that there are only three elements -- earth, air, and water. Fire is the combination of these three in perfect balance, and so becomes somewhat of a holy thing; not quite like Zoastrianism, where fire was the face of the god of light, but kind of close.
In this pantheon, the god of earth was the creator of everything, and had two sons -- air and wind. The god of earth spends most of his time asleep, letting his sons do what they want -- which is mostly fight each other. (Storms, lightning, etc -- the tribal people considered storms Bad Things, and would pray and sacrifice to try to get their gods to stop fighting.) When the god of earth got mad, though, all creation was in danger (earthquakes, anyone?).
Their wives, though, were the true caretakers of nature. The goddesses governed all life in their husbands' domains, which meant that the goddess of earth-life was the most powerful, and her daughter the goddess of air-life the quietest. It was the three of them that coaxed their husbands to support life -- convincing the god of earth to let plants grow, the god of air to caress them and make them stand tall, and the god of water to feed them, and all three to work together to let the sun shine. Animals were more independant, having been plants that recieved the spark of fire long ago; humans were the greatest of these, the only ones who had been born of the great oak tree that had grown from a volcano.
It's simplistic, but I liked it.  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 09:17:02
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When one creates a pantheon, it is usually an attempt to create something belivable and 'natural', in a sense that the concept of a god of love won't sound too outlandish to the players.
The Big 12 are pretty much mirrored in real-world mythologies, after all.
But I do stray, and PS authors have strayed (Asokar was a god of keys/doors, after all, although I suppose it could be argued that he was some sort of knowledge god). And it is a good thing, because the Big 12 become stale very fast.
I quite like the concept of small, almost unimportant gods, like the god of Mondays, or the Eternal Protector of the Cardboard Box, or even the metaphysical manifestation of Earl Grey (I worship her). But these kind of ideas are mostly (however there are times when they are relevant to the plot) nonexistant in my prime campaigns.
In my PS campaigns, I always sprinkle liberally with weird deity-like beings (I use the word loosely), simply to keep things in the power business fresh.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 09:21:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Anyway, one of the things I did was instead of having a god of death, I have a goddess of the life cycle -- who ends up as a pretty chaotic being, pictured as several different images, such as a six-year-old child, a barely pubescent girl, all the way to a crone on her deathbed.
Hmmm... a very interesting conceptual basis. It has the advantage of being easily modified should the need within the campaign arise.
Mind if I steal borrow this idea, Bookwyrm?
::The Sage prepares a fresh page within his notebook in anticipation of the Bookwyrm's affirmative::
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 09:22:19
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| I too enjoy the lesser and more obscure gods, but I find that it can be hard to give a reasonable reason for a player to worship it. The god of Mondays (let all fear his wrath, and bow to my Lady Friday) might be nice, but it's hard to give him a large enough church to matter. The 12 each represent enough facets of reality that people can believably worship at least one of them. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 10:49:11
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
[...] or even the metaphysical manifestation of Earl Grey (I worship her).
Sounds like the Lady K. should dress up in a toga and deliver some Earl Grey tea to you in the morning -- perhaps that would get the response she wants from you!  
quote:
Hmmm... a very interesting conceptual basis. It has the advantage of being easily modified should the need within the campaign arise.
Mind if I steal borrow this idea, Bookwyrm?
Ordinarily, I'm cagey about putting things I've put in stories up online, or letting other use them. Especially since this novel is the first I'm seriously-from-the-start wanting to publish.
However, this goddess is likely to be adjusted in the future, and isn't that different from others elsewhere. There's one in David Weber's fantasy series that's a tripartite goddess of women, the moon, and the birth/life/death cycle that made me hesitate to add her to my story. (She's described more fully in book three, which I read after I'd begun thinking about my book's pantheon.)
Anyway, the short answer is -- as you guessed  -- yes, you may use it. As I've said before, anything I put up on Candlekeep is freeware (so to speak) unless I say otherwise; for instance, Jack Archer is not open for any use whatsoever (unless someone asks really nicely, like Artalis did ). Just about anything else, including what I've written here, is open for tweaking.
Doesn't mean I don't appreciate being asked, of course. Or at least credited.  |
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MuadDib
Senior Scribe
South Africa
442 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 12:40:18
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I suppose there is also the Dragonlan....that thing's pantheon, having three Gods as such. Good, evil and neutral. Should I DM a campaign I might subdivide any existing pantheon into those three categories and have them represented as single entities or deities.
Otherwise, I guess I would take a look at Roman, Greek and Norse mythology and transact the celebrities as it were. Use the ones that fit.
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MuadDib - Candlekeep Inn Barhand |
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The Wanderer
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 12:44:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
I too enjoy the lesser and more obscure gods, but I find that it can be hard to give a reasonable reason for a player to worship it. The god of Mondays (let all fear his wrath, and bow to my Lady Friday) might be nice, but it's hard to give him a large enough church to matter. The 12 each represent enough facets of reality that people can believably worship at least one of them.
I think that is why people have created guardian spirits vs. deities. It is assumed that while these spirits do have power associated with a particular thing, they are not the all powerful gods. A great example was Rashemen as describe by EC in WW (frankly one of my favorite parts; makes me wish more had happened there).
To answer the main question from the post, I personally like to stick to the FR mythos (my players will complain less, since they all read the FR books non-stop and are used to them). If I where to stray though, I'd use real-world mythologies to keep the natural feel of the pantheon. Usually Greek mythology will work the best for FR (unless in the East, where you can use Egyptian). If you want to reduce the number of gods, just go back in the Greek chronology (Uranus (Sky Thunder, Male, etc.) and Gea (Female, Life, Earth, etc.) (would it be Gaia? I only know the name in Spanish )). |
The Wanderer |
Edited by - The Wanderer on 19 Jul 2004 13:16:48 |
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Lashan
Learned Scribe
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 13:06:23
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| I would say that I don't like the "God of Evil" bit. I mean, there has to be some sort of antagonist, but I dislike there being one evil god. Or perhaps it is I don't like the evil god being part of the pantheon. I usually have evil gods be from outside the pantheon. Loki is someone who is generally helpful, if annoying to the Viking pantheon. It's hard to have a cohesive pantheon with someone in it trying to destroy it all the time. Have the evil god be from outside the pantheon who is an enemy to the pantheon. I also think that this way the offending religion is even an external one that is not only threatening to destroy things, but it errods the moral fiber of the community as it pulls them away from the rightful pantheon for that society. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 13:55:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
[...] or even the metaphysical manifestation of Earl Grey (I worship her).
Sounds like the Lady K. should dress up in a toga and deliver some Earl Grey tea to you in the morning -- perhaps that would get the response she wants from you!
That would certainly be something I would enjoy seeing...
quote:
quote:
Hmmm... a very interesting conceptual basis. It has the advantage of being easily modified should the need within the campaign arise.
Mind if I steal borrow this idea, Bookwyrm?
However, this goddess is likely to be adjusted in the future, and isn't that different from others elsewhere. There's one in David Weber's fantasy series that's a tripartite goddess of women, the moon, and the birth/life/death cycle that made me hesitate to add her to my story. (She's described more fully in book three, which I read after I'd begun thinking about my book's pantheon.)
Ah. I had a feeling that was the case. The concept behind your idea sounded vaguely familiar to me. I'll have to re-read through the relevant portions of the novel again to get a better idea.
quote:
Anyway, the short answer is -- as you guessed -- yes, you may use it. As I've said before, anything I put up on Candlekeep is freeware (so to speak) unless I say otherwise; for instance, Jack Archer is not open for any use whatsoever (unless someone asks really nicely, like Artalis did ). Just about anything else, including what I've written here, is open for tweaking.
Doesn't mean I don't appreciate being asked, of course. Or at least credited.
I thought as much. It's also why I asked.
I'll also provide the appropriate credit to your idea as well, as I always have when I have found something that you have posted interesting enough for inclusion into my campaigns...
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The Wanderer
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 14:11:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Ah. I had a feeling that was the case. The concept behind your idea sounded vaguely familiar to me. I'll have to re-read through the relevant portions of the novel again to get a better idea.
I've seen the tripartite godess mentioned in various books myself. It is based on Greek Mythology and the myth of Demeter. The three aspects she portrays are The Maiden, The Mother, and The Crone, each representing a stage in a woman's life.
You can also see her in the Avalon series by Marion Zimmer Bradley which take place during Arthur's time, although each aspect takes on a slightly different meaning there. |
The Wanderer |
Edited by - The Wanderer on 19 Jul 2004 16:01:12 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 15:08:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Anubis
(would it be Gaia? I only know the name in Spanish )).
It's Gaia (guy-ah). It's the traditional "world-spirit" in modern pagan religions as well. (People who saw the movie Final Fantasy should recognize it. Not that the movie was all that good.) |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 15:32:55
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One I'd add to the Big 12: a Trickster.
But maybe that's just me... I've long identified with various Tricksters. Elsewhere I use the name Kokopelli, and I sometimes claim that Coyote is my patron saint. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 16:58:19
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Oh, yes, a pantheon isn't complete without a trickster god (or even goddess -- which would irritate the heck out of the male deities!). Normally it's just a god of rogues and/or travellers, such as Hermes in the Greek pantheon (or his counterpart in the standard D&D pantheon). Loki's a bit too evil to be properly a good trickster -- I prefer the sometimes annoying guy but whom one can always count on to either watch your back or at least lighten the mood.
(Which is why, I'm sure, Weber made his trickster god in his books the patron of halflings. It fits so well.) |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 17:27:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Oh, yes, a pantheon isn't complete without a trickster god (or even goddess -- which would irritate the heck out of the male deities!). Normally it's just a god of rogues and/or travellers, such as Hermes in the Greek pantheon (or his counterpart in the standard D&D pantheon). Loki's a bit too evil to be properly a good trickster -- I prefer the sometimes annoying guy but whom one can always count on to either watch your back or at least lighten the mood.
(Which is why, I'm sure, Weber made his trickster god in his books the patron of halflings. It fits so well.)
Actually, from what I've read, Loki started out as a fairly decent sort. It was as time went on that he became more evil. |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 17:36:22
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As i've said many times i don't like the idea of "external powers" ruling the mortal attributes, i mean; gambling is an human skill, i think is not a divine gift, as the same as war, justice, hate, poison or thievery. I think that gods only should have created the world, leaving the rest, up to human will, so my personal pantheon is composed over three gods.
GOD OF FIRE
GOD OF LAND
GOD OF SEA
Remeber that the air, comes from the evaporation of water by the sun (or fire), so that's why i don't have an Air God. |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
Edited by - Thelonius on 19 Jul 2004 17:37:43 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 17:58:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius Andrass
Remeber that the air, comes from the evaporation of water by the sun (or fire), so that's why i don't have an Air God.
Um . . . I think you need to check your middle school science books again . . . .  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 18:01:28
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| I meant that part of the O2 of the air comes from the evaporation, Bookwyrm. |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 18:08:19
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| Again, check those middle-school texts. Oxygen is primarily produced by plant life. All that evaporation of water produces is water vapor -- in other words, clouds and rain. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 18:10:51
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Yes, i was confused, sorry |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Lysander
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 18:11:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
(Snipped for space)Generic Pantheon model that I like to call the "Big 12" -
1. God of Nature
2. God of Fire
3. God of Weather (Rain, Storm, Thunder, Wind, Winter)
4. God of War
5. God of Love
6. God of Evil (Hate)
7. God of the Sea (Water)
8. God of Death (Darkness, Dead, Underworld)
9. God of the Sky or Heavens (Air)
10. God of the Sun (Light, Dawn)
11. God of Knowledge
12. God of Chance/Vice (Including Thieves, Fate, Gambling, Luck, Good Fortune)
(snipped for space).
I'd have to dig out the books, but I believe that Birthright has a very trimmed pantheon. There's only about 6 gods, which re-manifested into somewhere around 9 gods (some were direct portfolio transfers, others were shuffling). While the pantheon has some gaping portfolio "holes" (e.g., there's no Birthrightian deity of Earl Grey or Colombian Coffee  ) the construction of that mythology is such that "plugging the gaps" is difficult without major re-writes (and I don't think the 3x conversion folks at Birthright.net are planning that!)
Though, what I ahve been doing with the Realms, is trying to figure out a way to re-insert Amaunator into the pantheon (perhaps by not hving him "die," as well as bring in a new "attendant-deity" similar to the way the Red Knight had been portrayed. So far, Lathander's been shoved increasingly more into a corner, only to be nearly replaced by a co-DM's work (who is less along the path than I am)
Lysander |
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Dantrag
Learned Scribe
USA
141 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 18:53:41
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| Who is the god of nature? |
" The truth comes out only in bold and underlined" |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 19:15:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Dantrag
Who is the god of nature?
For which pantheon? |
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Dantrag
Learned Scribe
USA
141 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 19:40:51
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| I'm sorry,but I really don't know what a patheon is...i am fairly new to the realms... All I want to know is what is the main god or godess of nature. |
" The truth comes out only in bold and underlined" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2004 : 19:54:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Dantrag
I'm sorry,but I really don't know what a patheon is...i am fairly new to the realms... All I want to know is what is the main god or godess of nature.
Pantheon is a generic term; my handy Merriam-Webster dictionary defines it as "the gods of a people."
So, in the Realms, we have the Faerūnian pantheon, the Mulharondi pantheon, the elven pantheon, etc. In real-world mythology we have the Greek pantheon, the Norse pantheon, the Egyptian pantheon, etc. |
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Lysander
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2004 : 03:57:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Dantrag
I'm sorry,but I really don't know what a patheon is...i am fairly new to the realms... All I want to know is what is the main god or godess of nature.
It might be safe to assume that Chauntea is, assuming the "generic" Faerunian Pantheon.
Lysander |
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The Wanderer
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2004 : 04:14:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Lysander
It might be safe to assume that Chauntea is, assuming the "generic" Faerunian Pantheon.
Actually, both Silvanus and Mielikki fit the portfolio as well in this case. Each represents a slightly different aspect of nature than the other, Silvanus being patron of untamed wilderness while Mielikki seems to be closer to rangers (I'm am unsure of this one... F&P is not available to me ATM). |
The Wanderer |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2004 : 04:21:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Anubis
Actually, both Silvanus and Mielikki fit the portfolio as well in this case. Each represents a slightly different aspect of nature than the other, Silvanus being patron of untamed wilderness while Mielikki seems to be closer to rangers (I'm am unsure of this one... F&P is not available to me ATM).
Many aspects of nature in FR
Chauntea as a scribe previously mentioned has a portfolio that includes agriculture, farmers, and summer.
Mielikki's portfolio as Anubis mentioned includes rangers (Isn't there someone semi-famous who follows her?), forests, and autumn.
and as Anubis put forth Silvanus is wild nature and druids too. |
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Topic |
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The Generic Pantheon: Friend or Foe?
