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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 15:12:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Vexxan
Are we talking about the same WotC who is still churning out new Magic expansions?
WotC will inundate every aspect of the current rules structure until it threatens to collapse under its own weight. At that time, WotC will 'revise' the rules again with a new edition, followed by constant 'updates' of older crunch.
The cycle will never end.
WotC is a company, not your friend. They aren't going to listen to you unless your name tag clearly delineates the demographic you represent, your annual income and your penchant for impulse buying.
Only one option then. Don't purchase such items/updates, etc. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 15:30:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarta
With regard to my feelings on the books and such, I'm all for the Complete X line of books. Frankly, I'd like to see all official prc's and feats be released in one of these series of books with more information on how they can be utilized in the various worlds WotC supports and in home-brew games. Ideally, this would mean that source books for the various worlds could be released without prc's, feats, and such to take pages away from the good stuff.
Sarta
I agree with this, for the most part... I don't mind the inclusion of non-generic, Realms-specific crunch in the new sourcebooks, but I'd like to see them get back to the balance that was in the 2E books. The books and boxed sets of 2e had new spells and magic items, and occasionally new proficiencies or variant classes... But those things took up less than 20% of the book. Usually, it wasn't even that much. I liked that balance.
I'm avoiding the Complete X stuff because it reminds me of the Complete Handbooks of 2E. I have many of those, but I found that other than a kit or two in each book, they offered little to my games... Ditto for the previous set of class books, the ones like Sword & Fist and Tome & Blood.
If the crunch wasn't so flat and flavor-less, I'd be more inclined to buy it. But I can only read so many dull descriptions of PrCs before my eyes start to glaze over... |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 15:41:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If the crunch wasn't so flat and flavor-less, I'd be more inclined to buy it. But I can only read so many dull descriptions of PrCs before my eyes start to glaze over...
A very good point. Reading some of the PrCs' descriptions can do wonders for someone having trouble falling asleep. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 17:16:05
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If the crunch wasn't so flat and flavor-less, I'd be more inclined to buy it. But I can only read so many dull descriptions of PrCs before my eyes start to glaze over...
A very good point. Reading some of the PrCs' descriptions can do wonders for someone having trouble falling asleep.
Seriously, I have little use for most PrCs. It's just like the 2E kits -- in any given supplement, one or two might be of interest, but that's it. Rarely did I care about a kit enough to try it (with a few exceptions, like the swashbuckler), and few of the PrCs are much better. Out of the hundreds we've been inundated with, I've only liked a few of them. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2004 : 05:02:24
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I actually wouldn't mind all the PrCs if they just put in more effort beyond gameplay. I'd really like them to detail ways to use the abilities in roleplay. At the very least, they could have a section on what the PrC is like in X campain world. "In the world of Greyhawk, PrC-Xs are normally seen as . . . ." "In the Realms, PrC-Ys are found in . . . ." "On Eberron, PrC Zs are typically . . . ."
Is it really too much to ask? They've got creative talents over there. Even if they don't want to hamstring DMs with independant worlds by narrowing the mold ("This PrC is usually only used in this situation . . . ."), the above entries wouldn't harm anything; they'd just show what the PrC would be like in the particular official campaign world, and preferably regions thereof.
I'd even settle for something closer to the entries for base classes. Like what sort of characters take this PrC, why, and how often it typically happens. Not just "Wizards often become members of this PrC, but fighters rarely do . . . ." That doesn't give players much to build on.
What I'd really like is equal space -- they spend as much page space on flavor as for crunch. But I think it's more likely that I'll fly on gossamer wings before that happens.  |
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Vexxan
Acolyte
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2004 : 10:19:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Vexxan
Are we talking about the same WotC who is still churning out new Magic expansions?
This was not a good example to use. By the nature of the game, Wizards must create new content for it, or it would become stale. Not just on the business side of things, but the game would be much less fun if WotC stopped printing sets. The same does not hold true for D&D, as it is much easier to create homebrew content for it. The closest thing Magic has to D&D's editions would be the T2/Block Constructed crowd, who do rebuy everything every two years.
How is that a bad example? My point was reiterated by practically everyone who responded.
WotC can, and will, keep any product line alive if it is profitable.
Magic is constantly fuelled with new content just as D&D is provided with new material.
I understand what you are saying about the differing reasons and means behind product growths, yet it is still a business for WotC and they know how to keep things moving. Content will continue to be created as long as there is a consumer base. I was actually pointing to WotC's past endeavors as an example of this good business sense. 
Despite my post sounding rather negative, I will continue to buy new D&D products as long as the content is agreeable to me. Crunch is hardly a selling point to me anymore since so much of it is highly focused and only contributes to a small portion of my overall gaming. For example, most PrCs now I mine for campaign ideas and flavor, but the pure crunch of it is wasted space. I prefer material that is wider in scope or setting oriented. Again I am at a loss because I'm very fond of the FR setting so my purchases are usually restricted to that brand.
The 'Complete' series seems focused in a good way but I am very weary of wading through reams of PrCs, feats, spells and rules minutiae. This is what is selling to the 'new breed' of D&D players, unfortunately for me. I hope I can be swayed by the material and find a bounty of new ideas in it.
For me, D&D products are mostly stale because I have seen it all before in previous books, editions, or my own campaigns.
Lastly, Magic got stale for me a long time ago as well when they began printing cards that had the same general effect as an older card, but with a new name, flavor text or casting cost. Regardless of all the new content, it went flat.
Maybe I've just been around too long and nothing tickles my fancy anymore. No... wait... that can't be right because I'm dying in anticipation of Shining South.  |
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Sebastrd
Acolyte
28 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2004 : 18:45:19
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
I know one thing...for the most part..the vastly superior hasn't been the artwork.
I have to second that statement. I recently flipped through tPGtF and was really dissappointed by the illustrations. Is it just me, or has the art really gotten so much worse since the first few 3.0 books? |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2004 : 19:38:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Sebastrd
I have to second that statement. I recently flipped through tPGtF and was really dissappointed by the illustrations. Is it just me, or has the art really gotten so much worse since the first few 3.0 books?
It's not just you although the PGtF was not as bad as some other products that shall not be named. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2004 : 23:02:23
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Sebastrd
I have to second that statement. I recently flipped through tPGtF and was really dissappointed by the illustrations. Is it just me, or has the art really gotten so much worse since the first few 3.0 books?
It's not just you although the PGtF was not as bad as some other products that shall not be named.
Such as the rather infamous page 10... |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
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Wood Elf Ranger
Senior Scribe
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2005 : 13:57:01
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| First they take my Warlock idea and now the Scout I'd like to see how they do theirs though. I think I will buy this tome mainly for ideas it should be useful. |
~Lee N.
"Breaktime yes?!.. Yes?.. Maybe?.. Noo, baaack to work.." -Grovel the Goblin from NWN: HotU |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2005 : 23:23:49
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| I'll likely buy it, too... as soon as I can get a good deal for it on eBay. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2005 : 00:32:30
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The Complete Books so far have been satisfactory for me.
The line that has me concerned is the Races line.
Races of Stone was okay, but not that great, and the addition of new gods was very annoying.
I took a look at Races of Destiny, and decided to leave it on the shelf at the bookstore, I might get it one of these days, but not anytime soon. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2005 : 13:17:10
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Ten Reasons for Players to Buy Complete Adventurer is now up at WOTC's site.
Well, it looks like I'll be saving some gold pieces this month  . I said that I would give this tome one last chance to endear itself to me, and it has failed yet again .
Still, I'd be interested in hearing from whoever does pick it up. I will undoubtedly have questions.
Should be able to help with that either next Friday or the one following, depending what the actual release date is. Haven't checked with my game store yet, but will find out this Saturday.
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2005 : 14:26:41
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Well, it looks like I'll be saving some gold pieces this month . I said that I would give this tome one last chance to endear itself to me, and it has failed yet again .
You sound like Darth Vader. "You have failed me for the last time Complete Adventurer. 
And unless I hear something new about the tome, I'll be saving money as well. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2005 : 15:28:16
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Well, it looks like I'll be saving some gold pieces this month . I said that I would give this tome one last chance to endear itself to me, and it has failed yet again .
You sound like Darth Vader. "You have failed me for the last time Complete Adventurer.
And unless I hear something new about the tome, I'll be saving money as well.
I haven't even got any urge to pick up the tome just to complete the Complete series collection. This is the last one isn't? I can't recall whether there are any more planned, as all of the core classes have been covered.
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2005 : 15:54:55
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I haven't even got any urge to pick up the tome just to complete the Complete series collection. This is the last one isn't? I can't recall whether there are any more planned, as all of the core classes have been covered.
No idea if this is the last tome in the series. Then again, I haven't followed the line.
Complete Adventurer Desktop Wallpapers and Screensaver are now available. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2005 : 17:36:44
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Well somebody might decide to write Complete PrC at some point in time.
Perhaps focus on Complete Equipment or some other idea.
I would not mind seeing a Complete World Building, if it made sense. How to establish and build realms.
Oh perhaps a Complete NPCs, (War, Com, etc. ) ? |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2005 : 18:08:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I would not mind seeing a Complete World Building, if it made sense. How to establish and build realms.
Oh perhaps a Complete NPCs, (War, Com, etc. ) ?
If I recall correctly, some D20 companies have tackled both those subjects. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2005 : 03:02:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well somebody might decide to write Complete PrC at some point in time.
While some of us here would hope that this will not be the case... it has just the right amount of WotC-ness to be a definite possibility... .
quote:
Perhaps focus on Complete Equipment or some other idea.
That's not too bad an idea actually. But what type of equipment? Would it focus on both magical and mundane?
quote:
I would not mind seeing a Complete World Building, if it made sense. How to establish and build realms.
Isn't that what the DMG (and soon, the DMG II) is for?
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 06 Jan 2005 03:04:08 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2005 : 04:23:21
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well somebody might decide to write Complete PrC at some point in time.
While some of us here would hope that this will not be the case... it has just the right amount of WotC-ness to be a definite possibility... .
*chuckles*
quote:
quote:
Perhaps focus on Complete Equipment or some other idea.
That's not too bad an idea actually. But what type of equipment? Would it focus on both magical and mundane?
Seeing I do not have a book agreement can only say what I would like to see. I would concentrate on the mundane, as many of the splats books focus on magic. That does not say magic should not be included. Of course after any complete is offered, there will be addons for one reason or another.
quote:
quote:
I would not mind seeing a Complete World Building, if it made sense. How to establish and build realms.
Isn't that what the DMG (and soon, the DMG II) is for?
Wel the DMG certainly does not reach the standard of "if it made sense" and I have little hope for DMG II of doing so. Though that might be offered as a Complete DM guide ;-) |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2005 : 16:59:48
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Arms and Equipment Guide is your WotC Equipment book.
Also several 3rd party publisher's have done one also.
Oh I know that such books exist, just none of them are Complete, actually odds are low that any book will every be complete because new things will be added as time passes.
Almost every book has a few new items (if not all of them), some certainly very custom perhaps only useable by just one race. |
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Elrond Half Elven
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
322 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2005 : 18:01:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
...(with a few exceptions, like the swashbuckler)...
Which version of the Swashbuckler did you prefer? The kit in the the warrior's guide? Or the one in the Theives guide?
I enjoyed some of the items in the old 2nd books, in contrast to wooly however i found that perhaps 50%-75% of the material was useful depending on which book your talking about (The theives guide is excellent, IIRC while the priest and the druid are a let down, again IIRC)
Hanx
elrond |
Once upon a midnight dreary, while i pondered, weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore-
While i nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
-The Raven by Edgar Allan Poe |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2005 : 23:44:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Elrond Half Elven
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
...(with a few exceptions, like the swashbuckler)...
Which version of the Swashbuckler did you prefer? The kit in the the warrior's guide? Or the one in the Theives guide?
I enjoyed some of the items in the old 2nd books, in contrast to wooly however i found that perhaps 50%-75% of the material was useful depending on which book your talking about (The theives guide is excellent, IIRC while the priest and the druid are a let down, again IIRC)
Hanx
elrond
The druid book was one of the ones I never bothered with... Druids in 2E held zero appeal for me, as I couldn't see a reason to play one.
Anyway, to answer your question, I liked both versions of the kit, but the thief version was the one I actually played. I really liked that character, and I made him do things that were always a bit over the top -- like always sleeing in a hammock while adventuring, rather than on the ground (and sleeping with a teddy bear, too!), spending extra money on clothes and such to make sure he had really nice attire, etc. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2005 : 03:35:43
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| For those interested, FRP Games and RPGShop are both showing this tome now as available for sale and shipment. Thus, it should be in local stores. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2005 : 08:36:00
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
For those interested, FRP Games and RPGShop are both showing this tome now as available for sale and shipment. Thus, it should be in local stores.
Aye, I confirmed with my local gaming store that the Release date is Jan 7 for the US. So I should have my copy in the late afternoon/early evening and will see about posting some information. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
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'Complete Adventurer...'
