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Lashan
Learned Scribe
USA
235 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 17:27:40
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I'm just sort of polling for opinions here. Is anyone else sick of every single bad guy in FR having to be from one of the main bad guy organizations? In other words, aren't there any evil mages out there that aren't part of the zhentarium, cult of the dragon, or a red wizard? When I read Ed's stuff, there always seems to be other cabals, schools of magic, secret groups out there that are bad, but may not be as large as the main bad guys. Perhaps they are only slightly unethical and just out to make themselves rich? It seems to me, though, that any bad guy for any FR product HAS to be associated with one of the large and known evil groups.
Has anyone else felt this way? I know that there are independant bad guys, but it seems that the majority of them are all associated.
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 17:37:17
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I agree with you Lashan, i've felt the same. I remember i was exploring a forest and i met three Wizards, three Thay wizards to be accurate. So what the hell were three Thay wizards doing in the middle of a forest? 
It's true that sometimes seemes that the "bad guys" of the FR must belong to one of the "Great" secret associations to be dangerous, or even intelligent. The rogues that not belong to the Thieves Guild of Baldur's gate, The shadow Thieves or the Black Blades (i'm sure i forget some organization), are always "backalley's dumbs". |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 17:45:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Lashan
Has anyone else felt this way? I know that there are independant bad guys, but it seems that the majority of them are all associated.
Well I have many different takes here:
1. (The Cynical side of Sirius)
Of course most bad guys will be associated with some type of larger group. If you are a newcomer to the Realms reading a novel/gaming product and Mr./Mrs. Baddie is part of the Red Wizards, the first thing you will want to know is more about the Red Wizards. Gee, how do I do that? I guess I have to buy another WOTC product like Lords of Darkness etc.
2. (It's your world side of Sirius)
I think the lack of independent bad guys might be due to the fact the designers figure each DM will have his or her own special Mr./Mrs. Baddie that is not tied to an individual orgnization.
3. (No more generic stuff side of Sirius)
And with the push to make FR items more and more generic, I'm happy to see any mention of a FR group in a product even the Harpers.
But, to each his/her own. I'm tired of certain organizations, but alas, many FR organizations in the WOTC world aren't in my world or are vastly different.
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 17:46:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Gion
I agree with you Lashan, i've felt the same. I remember i was exploring a forest and i met three Wizards, three Thay wizards to be accurate. So what the hell were three Thay wizards doing in the middle of a forest?
Was this a face-to-face game? |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 17:48:19
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Gion
I agree with you Lashan, i've felt the same. I remember i was exploring a forest and i met three Wizards, three Thay wizards to be accurate. So what the hell were three Thay wizards doing in the middle of a forest?
Was this a face-to-face game?
Face-to-face. I don't cath you 
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"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 18:14:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Gion
Face-to-face. I don't cath you
Well, then did you communicate your dislike of the scenario to your DM? Thats sounds more like an individual DM problem than anything else. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 19:12:28
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| The smaller bad guy organizations, like the Twisted Rune or the Eldreth Veluuthra, do seem to be rather under-represented.... So do independent operators like Elaith Craulnober. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 19:15:53
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I disagree that they all are.
If talking about novels, I'd say about 65 percent of the villains are affiliated with one of the big bad organizations (including books that introduce these organizations). Not to give anything away, but the main villains in the Erevis Cale books aren't for example (aside from one who has a past connection). I also know that the villains in quite a few of the rogues books weren't either.
In source books it isn't the case either. It is just that unafilliated evil characters don't get as much press. Every single regional book has had independent BBEG's written up, they just are easier to forget about. Even more are briefly mentioned by name and alignment maybe in a town's description, but nothing further is discussed. Here are examples from just two source books:
FRCS:
Artemis Entreri
Klauth
Gerti Orelsdottr
King Obould
Halaster Blackcloak
Elaith Craulnober
Shruppak
Bronnia Stonesplitter
Sememmon (now a free agent)
Alorgoth
Silver Marches:
Xara Tantlor
Telkoun Adranther
Rynnarvyx (Gerti Orelsdottr's dragon)
Black Lorog (King Obould's chief advisor and shaman)
Bloodmaster Jarthon and Gerrin of Red Larch
Jadylyn Darvea
Several independent evil dragons
Sarta |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 20:57:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So do independent operators like Elaith Craulnober.
Elaith isn't bad, he's just misunderstood. 
Excellent example actually of an independent entity.  |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 22:33:04
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Lashan, that's because like you said, taht's all in "Ed's stuff". Ed's main character, as we all know, is Elminster. The Sage of Shadowdale is a very important character in the Realms. You think he's going to spend his time rescuing maidens from evil dukes when there's the Zhentarim and evil churches out there? You expect Elminster to be fighting the big-names like Fzoul or Szam Tam (sp?). Remember, Elminster himself is from one of these "main good guy organizations"; the Harpers.
If you want to see an enemy who's not from one of the main organizations, read the Erevis Cale trilogy. The enemies in those books are really evil and they work independently. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 22:43:04
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Lashan, that's because like you said, taht's all in "Ed's stuff". Ed's main character, as we all know, is Elminster. The Sage of Shadowdale is a very important character in the Realms. You think he's going to spend his time rescuing maidens from evil dukes when there's the Zhentarim and evil churches out there? You expect Elminster to be fighting the big-names like Fzoul or Szam Tam (sp?). Remember, Elminster himself is from one of these "main good guy organizations"; the Harpers.
Not necessarily. Elminster has also spent time battling the Malaugrym (sp?), and I don't think they've ever been presented as an evil organization. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2004 : 22:46:20
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| The Malaugryms are considered an evil organization. They have an entry in the LoD manual. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 00:54:19
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
The Malaugryms are considered an evil organization. They have an entry in the LoD manual.
I stand corrected. However, my original point stands: they are not one of the major evil groups. Most people in the Realms haven't even heard of them, and they're a pretty small group, on top of that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 01:10:45
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Yes, the malaugryms are a minor organization in LoD. But so is the Church of Bane and the Shadow Thieves if you look at it that way...
BTW, The Malaugyrms have 5 of them and 100 members (slaves, servants, etc). Their secrecy is listed as "medium", however, while well-known organizations like the Shadow Thieves are listed as "high". Hmm...
Anyways, the main point is that Elminster's enemies are all very powerful, which is why they are all part of the evil organizations on Faerun. Minor thugs and monsters aren't going to pick a fight with the Chosen of Mystra, so don't expect to read about Elminster duking it out with some cutpurse in Ed's stuff. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Jarren Longblade
Seeker
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 04:45:11
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| Personally when I run a FR game, I never have the PC face the Main Evil Organizations in climatic final battle I enjoy making Evil Indepent Character for the PC to fight. The PCs only incounter these organizations on a rare occasion. I have been Running FR games for areound 7 years now and my PC's have never encountered the Cult of Dragons, only encountered the Red Wizards when they steped on a teleport platform and wound up in Thay. The one the encounter the most are the Zhents and the main reason for that is they did not want to leave the Dalelands. |
One of the few thing you don't want to hear while deer hunting with your brother-in-law "DUCK" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 05:40:56
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| I've no problem with using the main bad guy groups, but I'd likely not use them as major villians in a campaign. I'd either pick one of the smaller groups, or use an independent operator. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 06:11:25
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I'm leading up to some heavy fighting with the Cult of the Dragon in mine. So far the pc's have thwarted two of Tiamat's splinter religions (one adapted to fit the Freeport series of books and the other being House Karanok). When they get to be about level 14, Tiamat's going to begin answering the prayers of Cultists under the guise of Sammaster and start siccing the Cult on them.
Sarta |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 08:35:49
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Gion
Face-to-face. I don't cath you
Well, then did you communicate your dislike of the scenario to your DM? Thats sounds more like an individual DM problem than anything else.
I told him, but they told me "Why not?"  |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Yoshimo
Seeker
88 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 13:20:42
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I like to keep it simple and have the final battle of my campaign fighting against a demon. They are not of any particular faction or an omnipresent spy network. They are always from the Abyss, and it adds suspense to the story when you find out a demon with untold powers escaped from the Abyss by breaking through a summoning circle an apprentice has just made in a power struggle for gaining enough influence to run his master's guild. You go into a huge room and find the demon lord himself and you're thinking "Oh, crap, this is the final battle and I was told before that he has untold powers and he can whip my butt if I am not careful." I like that reaction, and it makes the game fun. So if you don't want a faction bad guy, go demon. |
May the light of Selune light your path and Olidammara guide your footsteps ~Shadow Thief Motto |
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Lashan
Learned Scribe
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 15:00:34
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Heh...sorry for being so absent on a thread that I started....but work has been busy.
I am not refering to the novels. I don't think I will ever refer to the novels. I don't believe that novels are good game supplements and I only talk about FR as a game. (not that I am trying to start up THAT conversation).
It seems in all game products that come out, it always seems to be about the zhents are doing this or the red wizards are doing that. In Dungeon magazine modules, there are always the standard bad guys mentioned. Sure, there are mentions of the occasional independant bad guy, but the majority of things seem to always use the same bad guy organizations over and over again.
When I play, I rarely use these major bad guy groups. Or, I use them as shadowy and secret organizations that might be controlling the local bad guy group in front of the players. Now, I know that is a good way to do it, but I don't like having the majority of my bad guy groups to be one of the main bad guys listed. I really like to use cabals of merchants or small cults or evil wizards who aren't associated to any other organization at all. It just seems to spoil things when you can chalk up all mischief to the usual suspects.
Another thing is that these secret societies hardly are secret if everyone is freakin' part of it and they are all over the place doing very obvious evil work. I guess it seems like the super heros who always have to battle the same super villians, because that is all that there is in that comic book world. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 16:41:50
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| In fact, all of Ed's Realms writing -- game products, novels and short stories, magazine articles -- have plenty of non-aligned villains. (See "Ed Says: Secret Societies".) I think some other writers have seen the established groups and, consciously or unconsciously, made the mistake of thinking they're something like an exhaustive list, so overused them and made the published Realms less various and multiple than it ought to be. Realms players and readers now have to make an effort to separate the Realms as a secondary world from the Realms as a brand full of brand identities and iconic characters. |
Edited by - Faraer on 08 Jun 2004 16:42:15 |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 17:08:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
In fact, all of Ed's Realms writing -- game products, novels and short stories, magazine articles -- have plenty of non-aligned villains. (See "Ed Says: Secret Societies".) I think some other writers have seen the established groups and, consciously or unconsciously, made the mistake of thinking they're something like an exhaustive list, so overused them and made the published Realms less various and multiple than it ought to be. Realms players and readers now have to make an effort to separate the Realms as a secondary world from the Realms as a brand full of brand identities and iconic characters.
What Dragon Magazine article is he refering to in that last paragraph? I'd like to see if I have that one, and having the memory of a goldfish I can't remember if I've read it.
I love making up my own bad guys and do it about 90 percent of the time. |
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Lashan
Learned Scribe
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 17:09:36
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Oh, I agree that Ed has never done this. I tried to state that in the original post. I fully understand that this is not Ed's doing. I'm not sure who's doing it is and am not trying to point fingers or blame anyone, really. Just wondering if I am the only one who felt this way.
I agree that it is difficult for FR in the new 3E WOTC/Hasbro world. With the emphasise on stats, PrC's, mini's, and the like it is easy for them to brand things that way. I just hope when things go to 4E that FR is still as interesting as it was before. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2004 : 17:12:57
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Yup, got your meaning originally, Lashan. Some people like putting things into slots -- if the vampire's a bit crazy, must be a Malkavian; plotting wizards, must be Zhentarim or Thayan...
"The Great Goblet" in #271, which describes a mercantile secret society based in Scornubel. |
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Jacinth Greyfox
Acolyte
United Kingdom
35 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2004 : 20:18:42
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I dont really like using the Main Bad Guys and organisations in my game and usually use my own villains or create new mmemebers of established evil groups that i can use with impunity. Knowing that some Wotc plot twist wont invalidate all my work.
Lucky for me i am in the position where my players are happy to just turn up and play, there vision of the Realms is what they have experienced in my game or some novels they read about a Drow Ranger.
That is i dont get complaints about the lack of Zhent content in my game. ( The players have enough on their plates with the Hostower of the Arcane or Talmur Zil, My Red Wizard.) |
The Throne or the Tomb! |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2004 : 21:06:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacinth Greyfox
there vision of the Realms is what they have experienced in my game or some novels they read about a Drow Ranger.
Drow ranger? Who the hell is that? All drow are evil and in the underdark! |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2004 : 00:10:44
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I myself don't think there's a problem in using main evil organizations. However, this is a matter of opinion. I think that if we put them in there, it would make PCs realize the importance or danger of a quest. Let's say you have been hired to rescue some scholar from the Shadow Thieves. You would then suspect that scholar must know some secret or must be important if the Shadow Thieves would want him. The involvement of the Shadow Thieves lets the PCs know the importance of the rescue without dropping too many hints and spoiling the campaign.
HOWEVER, I disagree with direct confrontation with an evil organization. If it's a small section of a group, that's fine. But if you are going to wage a war against let's say, the Red Wizards of Thay, that would be kinda stupid. Evil organizations in FR aren't really meant to be destroyed outright in a game, suprising as it is. To me, it's to develop more villians or rivals for the PCs to make the campaign more intriguing and exciting. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2004 : 00:21:21
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| I'd talk about this, but I'd get out of the Realms very quickly-I'm dealing with this in a setting I'm creating myself right now. I think smaller groups are good-and that a lot of them fall into the gray area. |
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Yoshimo
Seeker
88 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2004 : 23:58:08
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Have you no life, Sirius Black?! You do not know of the great Drizzt Do'Urden, Drow ranger of the Underdark city of the Spider Queen called Menzoberranzan?! Drizzt Dourdenthe was created by RA Salvatore, bro! He is the only person who stands against the tyranny of his people! Jeez! The Icewind Dale Trilogy was based around him, The Thousand Orcs, The Lone Drow, The Two Swords! Do not tell me you do not know of Drizzt Do'Urden! |
May the light of Selune light your path and Olidammara guide your footsteps ~Shadow Thief Motto |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2004 : 00:38:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Yoshimo
Have you no life, Sirius Black?! You do not know of the great Drizzt Do'Urden, Drow ranger of the Underdark city of the Spider Queen called Menzoberranzan?! Drizzt Dourdenthe was created by RA Salvatore, bro! He is the only person who stands against the tyranny of his people! Jeez! The Icewind Dale Trilogy was based around him, The Thousand Orcs, The Lone Drow, The Two Swords! Do not tell me you do not know of Drizzt Do'Urden!
And this is why we need a smilie to convey sarcasm.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2004 : 03:57:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Yoshimo
Have you no life, Sirius Black?! You do not know of the great Drizzt Do'Urden, Drow ranger of the Underdark city of the Spider Queen called Menzoberranzan?! Drizzt Dourdenthe was created by RA Salvatore, bro! He is the only person who stands against the tyranny of his people! Jeez! The Icewind Dale Trilogy was based around him, The Thousand Orcs, The Lone Drow, The Two Swords! Do not tell me you do not know of Drizzt Do'Urden!
Sorry, never heard of him. Is he a bad guy? He must be if he's drow and this topic is about main bad guys. Is he a male drow? If so, he's gotta be part of Vhaeraun's followers then if he's a bad guy. If he's not a bad guy, than he must be an Eilistraee follower. He isn't one of those dancing nude dark elves is he? 
Vhaeraun drow... now there are some fun main bad guys. I still love the opening for a section in Lords of Darkness where the dark elf tells a dying foe, "I spit upon the Spider Goddess," or something to that effect. |
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Tired of the Main Bad Guys?
