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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jun 2004 : 12:02:09
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Sorry, never heard of him. Is he a bad guy? He must be if he's drow and this topic is about main bad guys. Is he a male drow? If so, he's gotta be part of Vhaeraun's followers then if he's a bad guy. If he's not a bad guy, than he must be an Eilistraee follower. He isn't one of those dancing nude dark elves is he? 
Vhaeraun drow... now there are some fun main bad guys. I still love the opening for a section in Lords of Darkness where the dark elf tells a dying foe, "I spit upon the Spider Goddess," or something to that effect.
Maybe he's the first drow with a lightbulb stapled to his forehead? Cause I think I heard he came out of some ancient place or something once... |
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Yoshimo
Seeker
88 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2004 : 13:27:21
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Oh, sorry about the smilies! I forgot to add them.  There, I compensated. Um... Drizzt Do'Urden is the only male drow who is noble in heart. He stood against his own people and caused more problems than any of the wars that broke out down there against the noble houses. This drow is not to be confused with any dancing nude dark elves. He stands for your freedom, sacrificing what he holds dear with his noble panther Gwenhwyvar, and always risking his life for you. He defeated the crystal shard Crinshinnabon, the shard that was to take over the world with it's deadly power. He battled a fiend that nearly killed him, all to save the world. He is the only good drow in the Forgotten Realms. And please, don't insult him again. I also entreat you to pick up a copy of the Icewind Dale Trilogy by R.A. Salvatore. It is well worth it and you will most likely love this book more than any of the others that you read. I know that I did. (Sorry about losing my cool above) |
May the light of Selune light your path and Olidammara guide your footsteps ~Shadow Thief Motto |
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Tethtoril
Seeker
95 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2004 : 15:27:17
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Raises a busy eyebrow.
Yoshimo, as this is a scroll on bad guys, I hope you are considering Drizzt Do'Urden in their fold. Of course, if you look at it from the view of giants and orcs, I am sure he is considered a bad guy. Could we please get back to topic now? |
Tethtoril
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood |
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Lashan
Learned Scribe
USA
235 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2004 : 16:25:29
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I believe that the bad guys are great for being really secretive bad guys. I mean, the Black Network is a lot cooler when they are just a few agents directing local thugs to do bad things. Sure, there is the Zhentilar (Zhentil Keep military forces) that are guarding caravans through the Stonelands and the desert, but they shouldn't be around other places. And besides, those are official Zhentil Keep military forces guarding a caravan from that city...not really illegal people (unless they attack and try to sell you into slavery). There shouldn't be all sorts of armed hordes of bad guys with big Z's on their shields and tabards. A real zhentarium agent would be a shadowy figure who is manipulating local thugs, mercenaries, and other groups to cause mischief for the benifit of the Black Network's goals (Taking over all the trade lands, which includes disrupting local kingdoms in an attempt to take them over or reduce their ability to compete). It just seems that there are all these guys labeled "zhentarium" all over the place.
Another thing is player knowledge vs. character knowledge. No one should know who Manshoon is or that he is head of the zhentarium. I mean, it's a secret society. Perhaps, if the characters have done enough delving into the Black Network's secrets, they will learn this, but as "general knowledge", they shouldn't know this at all. I mean, sure the Zhentarium is a large group with fingers all over the place, but they are a SECRET group! There is no way that a farmer in the Dalelands would know who the head of the zhentarium should be.
Now, all that is just discussing the zhentarium! There are lots of groups out there with smiliar issues. Am I making sense? Does anyone else see this as a problem? I'm just venting, really. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2004 : 16:31:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Lashan
Another thing is player knowledge vs. character knowledge.
An aspect that perhaps causes some DMs to make the main bad guys from organizations of their own creation. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2004 : 16:34:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Tethtoril
Of course, if you look at it from the view of giants and orcs, I am sure he is considered a bad guy. Could we please get back to topic now?
There was a D20 module that allowed characters to run an adventure from the bad guys/monster's point of view. |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2004 : 19:42:39
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Indeed, Lashan...I'm with you....
I think that 2nd ed. was very stale, and while several authors kept things new and refreshing (Salvatore, Cunningham and Lowder come to mind...), there was a general malaise of over-powerful characters that blew things a part and them put them back together again....
For me, this miasma was not limited to villains, though...enough heroes were equally guilty of this....
However, things have definitely picked up...the return of Shade, the War of the Spider Queen, the march of Obould, and several other series have definitely kept my fingers flipping pages.... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2004 : 11:52:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Lashan
A real zhentarium agent would be a shadowy figure who is manipulating local thugs, mercenaries, and other groups to cause mischief for the benifit of the Black Network's goals (Taking over all the trade lands, which includes disrupting local kingdoms in an attempt to take them over or reduce their ability to compete). It just seems that there are all these guys labeled "zhentarium" all over the place.
I am curious - lots of people use the word Zhentarium when describing the Zhentarim organisation. At first I thought it was a spelling mistake but so many people use it. Does it mean something different from Zhentarim? Is it an alternative spelling?
Thanks, and if it is just a spelling mistake, please don't take offernce. Just curious. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2004 : 16:01:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
I am curious - lots of people use the word Zhentarium when describing the Zhentarim organisation. At first I thought it was a spelling mistake but so many people use it. Does it mean something different from Zhentarim? Is it an alternative spelling?
Thanks, and if it is just a spelling mistake, please don't take offernce. Just curious.
No, to my knowledge it means the same organization. |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2004 : 19:00:46
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now thatīs funny:
after writing something and posting it here, i discover a closely related discussion is already in process- 2 posts under mine own! 
well, here are my 2c about small individual (but not necessarily evil) organizations:
http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2654
@lashan: i feel the same way. though my players arenīt fed up with zhents or red wizards, i regularly come up with my own villians. some of them may have ties to the "big baddies" or not; that way i keep īem guessing: "does that greedy calishite merchant in tilverton (what the hell does a calishite do in tilverton after all???) really have business ties to zhentil keep?" and so on...
tauster
*still chuckling* |
Edited by - tauster on 12 Jun 2004 19:03:08 |
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chosenofvelsharoon
Acolyte
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2004 : 15:04:41
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I know this is from a while back, but i have a thought for Sarta:
Tiamat doesn't like or approve of the cult of the dragon. she thinks undead are an abomination to any dragon. not to mention the cult detracts from her followers. (silly mortals worshiping liches instead of gods)
"and naught shall be left but shattered thrones, with none to rule them but the dead. Dragons shall rule the world entire..." |
~chosen of Velsharoon
"and naught shall be left, saved shattered throwns with none to rule them but the dead." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2004 : 15:51:11
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quote:
Originally posted by chosenofvelsharoon
I know this is from a while back, but i have a thought for Sarta:
Tiamat doesn't like or approve of the cult of the dragon. she thinks undead are an abomination to any dragon. not to mention the cult detracts from her followers. (silly mortals worshiping liches instead of gods)
"and naught shall be left but shattered thrones, with none to rule them but the dead. Dragons shall rule the world entire..."
You are incorrect, my friend. According to Powers & Pantheons, she's actively trying to incorporate the Cult of the Dragon into the ranks of her worshippers, to the point of manifesting as a dracolich version of the Chromatic Dragon.
I'm fairly certain the above information has not been retconned. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2004 : 16:28:14
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I don't quite buy that she would be disinterested in dracoliches due to their undead nature. She is the Queen of Evil Dragons, one could argue that dracoliches would fall into this category.
The church of Tiamat has been attempting to infiltrate the cult for quite a long time in an effort to co-opt it. They have even attempted to sway others by claiming that her status as the "Undying Queen" is the very essence of dracoliches. It is rumored that her avatar within Castle Perilous is a multi-headed dracoliche. The church of Tiamat has met with resistance infiltrating the cult, but has also had several successes. (Cult of Dragons pgs. 61 - 63)
However, Tiamat has already demonstrated her willingness to co-opt the worship of idolators by endowing the non-deity that they are worshiping with her divine essence -- most notably the worship of a sphere of annihilation by the Karanok family. (Lords of Darkness 136 - 141)
The cult already has many who pray fruitlessly to Sammaster in the hopes that he will grant their prayers. (Cult of Dragons pg. 30)
It wouldn't be very hard for her to begin granting these through a newly created Sammaster avatar and then keeping both churches as seperate entities.
Furthermore, the possibility of Sammaster being deified with Tiamat's blessing has been suggested before. (Cult of the Dragons pg. 115)
Frankly, I'd say Tiamat's scared. She's been brought to the point of nearly dying a few times. She wants more power and she wants the safety of being worshipped through multiple channels. This enables one head to be cut off and yet the body to live on. Co-opting the Cult of the Dragon through her church infiltrating the cult will increase her power. Making Sammaster the demigod of dracoliches will do the same, but without straining church resources (allowing them to focus on surviving the Unther invasion) and it will provide yet another "head" for the Darklady.
Sarta |
Edited by - Sarta on 16 Jun 2004 16:39:04 |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2004 : 17:37:04
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I never realized how incredibly lucky I am.
My players have never really delved into anything resembling realmslore over the years, they prefer to let me do it and let me have it crop up in the game. Due to their nature I reckon I can get at least another 20 years out of existing FR lore alone before they begin to learn enough of it to become jaded with the villains.
Seriously, the amount of exploring and learning they do in the game is vast, yes, but still a fraction of what is out there.
There are a fewinteresting situations though. For one, I am likely to never get the mileage out of the Reds as was intended by the designers. One of my players decided to have his Wizard from there. AS time progresses, and the more Thayan lore I dig up, he just giggles this laugh thqat seemingly compels you to chuckle along with him, and keeps saying "I soo chose the right home region". In fact, he has been playing Red Wizard characters for years, and never knew it!
He is a pretty big 'ol boy, so his laughter is somehow magically imbued with contagiousness, and we are helpless within it's grasp. So, it just seems almost appropriate as I describe some scene in Bezantur, or relate the history of a specific time and he just gets really into it, with is little thayvian laugh of evil.
So, maybe thge old standbys are old hat for a lot of the FR fans, but to the latest crop, it is just so vast and awe inspiring as to keep us entertained for seemingly ever, inconsistencies and all. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2004 : 02:23:26
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Then again...let's face it...it's fun fighting the Zhents and the drow and Thay and the like....
No worries as to alignment...if someone's allied with these groups...you can bet they're evil and let the arrows fly!!!
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My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
Edited by - Arion Elenim on 17 Jun 2004 02:30:04 |
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chosenofvelsharoon
Acolyte
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2004 : 10:43:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarta
I don't quite buy that she would be disinterested in dracoliches due to their undead nature. She is the Queen of Evil Dragons, one could argue that dracoliches would fall into this category.
She is the queen of evil dragons, living dragons, not skeletons that can be controlled.
The church of Tiamat has been attempting to infiltrate the cult for quite a long time in an effort to co-opt it. They have even attempted to sway others by claiming that her status as the "Undying Queen" is the very essence of dracoliches. It is rumored that her avatar within Castle Perilous is a multi-headed dracoliche. The church of Tiamat has met with resistance infiltrating the cult, but has also had several successes. (Cult of Dragons pgs. 61 - 63)
the end of pg 61 "The Dark Lady expects strong resistance from the more powerful Cult cells' leaders" pg 62 "...the efforts of the Dark Lady's followers have been opposed at every turn by the entrenched Keepers of the Secret Hoard, and her faitheful have been subjected to unspeakable tortures when their ture allegiance was exposed"
This sounds like conflict to me.
However, Tiamat has already demonstrated her willingness to co-opt the worship of idolators by endowing the non-deity that they are worshiping with her divine essence -- most notably the worship of a sphere of annihilation by the Karanok family. (Lords of Darkness 136 - 141)
unfortunately i don't own a copy of lords of darkeness
The cult already has many who pray fruitlessly to Sammaster in the hopes that he will grant their prayers. (Cult of Dragons pg. 30)
pg 30 says "...entries on the list of religous enemies of the cult are the church of tiamat (which actually seeks not to destroy the cult, but to annex the entire Cult...)" additionally later pages say that the cult is a target for acquisition, not for alliance.
a religeous ENEMY. not cohort.
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Furthermore, the possibility of Sammaster being deified with Tiamat's blessing has been suggested before. (Cult of the Dragons pg. 115)
i assume you refer to the "saint sammaster" story hook. this is just a hook, and if you read the last paragraph, it refers to a "bogus" story the hint is that sammaster is not really ascending but that it appears that way to glorify tiamat.
Frankly, I'd say Tiamat's scared. She's been brought to the point of nearly dying a few times. She wants more power and she wants the safety of being worshipped through multiple channels. This enables one head to be cut off and yet the body to live on. Co-opting the Cult of the Dragon through her church infiltrating the cult will increase her power. Making Sammaster the demigod of dracoliches will do the same, but without straining church resources (allowing them to focus on surviving the Unther invasion) and it will provide yet another "head" for the Darklady.
Sarta
lastly the Undying Queen reference doesn't necessarily mean undead. Myrkul has an Undying Dragon which is no longer undead, that is why it is also called the Eternal Dragon.
"and naught shall be left save shattered thrones, with no rulers but the dead. Dragons shall rule the world entire..." |
~chosen of Velsharoon
"and naught shall be left, saved shattered throwns with none to rule them but the dead." |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2004 : 13:31:12
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In my game, my players are looking for a very powerful artifact (in fact it's made in 8 different parts) And a lot of thes organisation happened to discover that my pcs possess 4 of the parts, so they'll meet a lot of people from the zhent, the cults... (the more so as they are trying to rebuild a new kind of myth drannor in the process  )
My point is, the people your pcs will met depends on how they're acting, if they can't stand to view a slave and try to free all the ones they meet, they'll surely have trouble with Zhentil keep... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2004 : 15:02:17
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quote:
Originally posted by chosenofvelsharoon
lastly the Undying Queen reference doesn't necessarily mean undead. Myrkul has an Undying Dragon which is no longer undead, that is why it is also called the Eternal Dragon.
Yeah, but her manifesting as a five-headed dracolich is more likely where she gets that name. Since dracolichs are undead, then the name fits. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Tired of the Main Bad Guys?
