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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Aug 2004 : 02:57:35
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Sorry if we've already covered this in this thread (just dropping by -no time for pleasant dalliances), but....
Did I miss something or did the good writers of WotSQ completely neglect to explain how Nimor Imphraezel escaped from the Plane of Shadow while his body was glowing like the sun (from WotSQ IV)?
LOVED this book, though... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2004 : 03:38:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
Sorry if we've already covered this in this thread (just dropping by -no time for pleasant dalliances), but....
Did I miss something or did the good writers of WotSQ completely neglect to explain how Nimor Imphraezel escaped from the Plane of Shadow while his body was glowing like the sun (from WotSQ IV)?
LOVED this book, though...
No, I asked kuje, I believe, about this as I didn't recall it being explained either. It's simply not addressed in the novel. I'm afraid we must come up with our own explanation.
Mine is, a star elf led him out with one of those big miner lamps they have attached to their foreheads. |
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Lauzoril
Seeker
Finland
71 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2004 : 11:19:24
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I just completed Annihilation and must say I liked it. Imo this is Athans' best book so far. Although I agree that the Gromph&Dyrr duel could've been more grander and detailed in magic, it's still okay to a point.
It's nice to see that Athans' trademark of gory details is present in this book as well.
I'm looking forward Phil Athan's next book, the Watercourse Trilogy. There he can really create his own fresh characters.
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"Death to the enemies of Bane."
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Thenger
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2004 : 02:30:42
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I just finished this book today, picked it up a few days ago. Had some money issues so had to push picking up the book till now. Well first off the book was good, not the best of the series but for sure wasn't the worst.
I am still a bit miffed about Ryld dieing and the way he did, it was just a weak excuse to kill him off. The only reason he died was cause Hellista was still a drow at heart, she turned her back from the man she loved, to cause pain to someone else... Lolth.
The one problem about having other people write book from book is how the characters change, I have noticed this in one form or another in all the books, in some of them it was like a tottal 180% turn, wasn't like that in this book.
I haven't kept up to date with D&D in any shape way or form, the only novels I have read lately are the WotSQ and the novels writen by the writers like Forsaken House and the rest. So I have no clue what Lolth will be doing with the change, anyone who has any ideas please enlighten me or send me a private message.
I honestly can not stand the whole Cresent Blade and Hellista going to try and kill Lolth. To me that's a tottal joke, no mortal being should be able to kill a god/goddess, and not even be able to do so in there plan of existance. And if we are going to push then I can someone like Gromph killing a god/goddess but someone like Helista please... She was my least favored character, the only thing that helped me read her parts along was that Ryld was their with her, and now that he was killed by Helista as much as the half-breed demon, I found myself having to force myself along the part of the book with her. The whole drow going good path makes me sick, if we want that we can read Drizzt, where he an amazing character, and even that other drow series, which I can't bring myself to read cause of the whole drow going to the path of light.
Yes Salvator did it, let him have Drizzt, a one in a million chance of a drow going good, and enough with the other characters doing it, makes me sick.  I just hope that book 6 is going to be as good as the rest. I hope some changes are made and that Helista gets snuffed before she even comes anywhere near Lolth.
Oh well that was my just letting out some anger on some of things I truely dislike. Over all I enjoyed the book, took me like 4 days to read it working a full time job and doing other things as well. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2004 : 03:48:04
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I finished this book several weeks ago, but I've decided to give my opinion on it here now as I've been re-reading the previous WotSQ books and found many inconsistencies and confusion in the 5th book.
I guess my first complaint would have to be like many others; Ryld's death was stupid and not very believable. Come on, Splitter being "split"? This is the same sword that has been breaking fine drow-enchanted swords and dwarven-forged axes, deflecting deadly beholder rays, and cutting through demons as if it was swiss cheese. It gets broken apart by a woodcutter's axe  . In other forums, people have been arguing about Jeggred's strength or the "enchantment" of the axe, but I think that's BS. If Splitter has proven to be so strong in the first four books, I don't care if Jeggred had the strength of a giant. Also, the axe that Jeggred took from the woodsman could not have been that powerful. If the axe was such a mighty magical weapon, then I don't think the owner of the axe would be wasting it cutting wood at a lumber camp.
Next, onto the removal of Danifae's bindings. I re-read Book II and III, and in there it was mentioned that the drow would have pain from just touching the amulet and her tongue would go numb if she tried to convince anyone to remove the curse for her. HOWEVER, there she was in Eryndlyn, asking a drow wizard to remove it for her. To make things even worse, the final component of that spell was to have her say, "I want to be free of the Binding." So I don't understand how she could even say that if the magic of the Binding was supposed to prevent that...
Another complaint of mine had to be the sudden changes in the characters. The most obvious ones had to be in Quenthel, Jeggred, and Pharaun. In Book V, Quenthel is now shown as a helpless and scared whelp, when in the previous books she had been commanding and fearsome even with Pharaun constantly taunting her. I thought it was strange that she just changed once she got on the Ship of Chaos. The same thing with Jeggred, as this draegloth all of a sudden received a brain transplant and raised his intelligence by like 20 points. He is now taunting Quenthel and actually include complicated words with brilliant grammar in his speech. Then there's how he just all of a sudden don't refer to Quenthel as "Mistress", but "Auntie" with no explanation at all. I also found that Pharaun, my favourite character, has such a small role in this book. There was basically none of his smart and witty comments that kept the previous books entertaining. He also doesn't even take a direct role in the group's plans and decisions, as everything is all of sudden controlled by Danifae and Jeggred. I mean, I knew that all the characters except for one had to commit betrayal, but this is a bit exaggerated and taken too far.
Lastly, I did not like the Dyrr/Gromph battle. Philip Athans did a nice job of building up the momentum leading to the battle. I was quite anxious to read about the battle but when I got about halfway in, I was disappointed. It dragged on to long, taking practically the whole book to have one battle. First of all, it was like five spells into the battle and Gromph gets hit by one enchantment spell and just gives up. I didn't like the part where he could be sent to halfing heaven, and then teleport back with a halfing who somehow is "resurrected". Then to make this situation even more humourous and confusing, the halfing was able to damage Dyrr through all his magical protection even though Gromph's spell couldn't even make the lich drow wince. Once again, this is an example of Phil Athan's unrealism, shown before in the BG series; where a moonblade could not even scratch a demon but the main character Abdel could slash it up with Yoshimo's katana (those who played the game would know how weak that weapon was). Another thing about Gromph was how he depended so much on his ring and the staff. The Archmage of Menzoberrazan that I've been reading about would use his spells to defend himself, not relying on magical items. This is a basic rule that even apprentices know about. In Book III, he was casting spellshields and globes of protection, and now all he does is tap his staff on the ground to raise shields. I thought that regenerating ring made him too uber, as it just constantly healed all his wounds, even when his leg got cut off.
I guess the only positive thing about this book was that it was better than Philip Athan's previous works and it gave us answers to many questions that we had since the beginning. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 19:16:11
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Unfortunately when you have an "overstory" that is written by many different authors with the only structure being the outline of what happens, often you have continuity issues that no one forsees, and you have characterizations that seem really "off" compared to earlier books in the series. I remember feeling like someone had killed off and replaced with dopplegangers several members of the group in the Avatar Trilogy from one book to the next. And I don't even want to try to explain that bloated mass of storyline called the "New Jedi Order".
Originally Ryld and Pharaun reminded me of a negative immage of Fafhrd and Mouser. My original guess was that Ryld was a lawful neutral character that supported the society even while its chaos bothered him (note the comments about Sava). I thought that he did not come off as slow or less intelligent so much as less complicated than other drow, not constantly scheming and such.
After the first two books, however, Ryld became "The other fighter" with little characterization. It became evident that he was going to fall for Hallistra in the second book, and it was simply a forgone conclusion later on. There were hints in the second book that Ryld might eventually do something drow like and wait for a bad time to turn on Pharaun, but we never see this happen due to Ryld's pointless death.
Pharaun has been witty and entertainly evil (book one), sarcastic and randy (book two), and these traits seemed consistant. But in the third book, Pharaun just seems beligerant, and while he pulls off some intelligent moves in the fourth book, he quickly fades into the background in the fifth book.
Quenthel goes from being fierce and competent and a natural survivor (ironic considering her history) in book one, but immediately in book two she becomes indicisive, stubborn, and rather unwise in her decisions. While we get an explanation by book four (she is unsure of herself with the goddess gone, and lets her whip influence her), this explanation would have been nice back in, oh, say book two or three.
And did anyone else notice that all through book four, there are references to adamantine rotting in the sun, both implying that the metal itself has a weakness to the sunlight, and ignoring that fact that in the Windwalker this is no longer an issue. You could almost dismiss that the author forgot that "little" detail, except that that was the crux of the storyline as well as the book where Quenthel comes back to life!
In a lot of ways I don't blame the individual authors. They were given a difficult task, and each novel does have some moments of great fun and good characterization, but they fail mainly in the editing. Its really sad, especially since I almost feel compelled to read the books due to their import for the Underdark regions. Still, they are all entertaining, so its still an entertaining chore, just not as much fun as it would be if I didn't keep noticing the little speed bumps along the way. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 19:36:11
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
And did anyone else notice that all through book four, there are references to adamantine rotting in the sun, both implying that the metal itself has a weakness to the sunlight, and ignoring that fact that in the Windwalker this is no longer an issue. You could almost dismiss that the author forgot that "little" detail, except that that was the crux of the storyline as well as the book where Quenthel comes back to life!
This I can let slide because Underdale brought back drow decay as a weapon/armor property. :) Think those of us who disliked that silly change managed to convince WOTC to include it in Underdark, or thats my theory. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 20:21:47
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I havent read through everything in Underdark (until I recently joined a new game group, novels took precedence over game books), and I find it amazing that just a year ago we had a major change and then we now have a major change back. It makes me start to worry a bit becuase these were the constant ping pong continuity glitches in game rules that started to plague TSR.
Or maybe I'm just old. |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 20:31:41
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I've been avidly enjoying WOTSQ but I was indeed dissappointed in Book 5...mostly for reasons mentioned
The Spell Duel, Ryld's end (Yeah, Athans, want to rub 'he's not coming back' in our faces?), Nimor being around, let alone coherent, the characters seeming...not as good as they used to.
And by Vhaeraun, if Jeggred and Danifae and Quenthel don't get what they deserve... |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2005 : 23:10:02
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I havent read through everything in Underdark (until I recently joined a new game group, novels took precedence over game books), and I find it amazing that just a year ago we had a major change and then we now have a major change back. It makes me start to worry a bit becuase these were the constant ping pong continuity glitches in game rules that started to plague TSR.
Or maybe I'm just old.
It's not really a major change since only some of the drow weapons/armor has that property but it was nice that WOTC gave us older players the option of keeping drow decay. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Fyrespray
Acolyte
United Kingdom
3 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2005 : 19:24:18
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I must admit that I too was severly dissapointed with the battle between Gromph and Dyrr. I was left with the feeling that the amazingly powerful Gromph was little better than an apprentice in this battle, after all of the spell casting fights we have seem Phaerun in I was expecting something truely special, alas it didn't happen.
After reading this battle I am left with little doubt that Phaerun could quite easily defeat Gromph and take the place of Archmage of Menzoberranzen should he wish when he returns.
Finally the Hallistra/Ryld thing, maybe Ryld was killed for a specific reason, he is now in Lloths domain. Suppose Lloth called up Ryld to defend her when Hallistra attacks. We could see a nice bit of irony there, Hallistra having to kill her lover for her goddess which is exactly what Lloth would have demanded of her (Well OK he's already dead but i'm sure you get the gist of what i'm saying :)). |
Fyrespray
http://www.ardescosolutions.com
http://www.lazeryattack.com |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2005 : 04:14:15
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I don't think that Pharaun could actually defeat Gromph in a spell battle. After all, in the first book, even Pharaun himself admitted that he wasn't even in the top 30 of Menzoberrazan's most powerful spellcasters, which was why he wanted to summon the Sargauth demon.
I think it's was just the result of a poorly written story by Philip Athans that gave us such an impression about Gromph. Like I've mentioned before, Gromph would cast spells in the previous WotSQ books but in this one he just kept depending on his staff and ring.... |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2005 : 04:54:21
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
I think it's was just the result of a poorly written story by Philip Athans that gave us such an impression about Gromph.
Having recently looked at a bunch of reviews for this novel, you are not the only one who feels this way. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2005 : 13:57:08
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Yes, I must admit, while I don't remember a whole lot about Gromph from the Dark Elf trilogy, in the Liriel books and in the earlier books in this series, the only person who has ever been portrayed as not respecting Gromph's power is the Lichdrow Dyrr, which is understandable.
The problems seems to be that instead of making Dyrr look like a master spellcaster on par with some of the Chosen (which if I remember his stats in 2e he was), both Gromph and Dyrr throw spells at each other willy nilly. In fact it s doesn't even seem to match up with the brief encouter between the two in book three, when Gromph is imprisonsed. I don't remember thinking that Gromph was weak there, just that Dyrr was powerful . . . |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2005 : 20:16:25
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That's because Gromph was written well there...And Pharaun was one of the thirty most powerful if memory serves.
Gromph basically resorted to tossing an undead halfling and recommending FIRE against a Lich. It came across that Gromph is amazingly uneffectual...while Pharaun meanwhile dispatches a Glabrezu with incredible ease |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2005 : 01:12:33
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| You know what's even worse about that halfing scene, Etriel? The fire actually worked... Lol. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2005 : 21:18:55
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The scene just felt amazingly forced...just to get Nimor to show off...
So, think Nimor'll return in Book Six? |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2005 : 23:51:02
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| Nimor? Ya, I think he probably will return, along with the rest of the Chausslins. After all, now that Lolth has returned, she's going to bring down her wrath on the ones that have caused so much trouble for her followers and clergy. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2005 : 23:56:42
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| I do hope so...thoughts on what's gonna happen to Kaanyr, Horgar, the Chaulssin, Dyrr and our merry band of Drow adventuruers? |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2005 : 02:56:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
I do hope so...thoughts on what's gonna happen to Kaanyr, Horgar, the Chaulssin, Dyrr and our merry band of Drow adventuruers?
Actually I was just thinking today of starting a thread for predictioins on how this series will end since the final novel should be coming out shortly. |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2005 : 02:59:42
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| By all means, Mr. Black, by all means |
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MR. T
Acolyte
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2005 : 17:22:41
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A couple things:
1. I liked all the books, anxiously awaiting book VI!!!
2. Gromph vs Dyr
a. Considering that Dyr is a good 2000 years older than the former Matron Baenre (about 5000 years old in total) it doesn't suprise me that Gromph looked like an apprentice when spell battling him. I was upset that Dyr was vanquished as easily as he was.
b. It erked me that Triel jumped in to save the day at the end of the battle :(
3. I have no clue how Nimor got out of the shadow plane? That wasn't explained at all and I'm not sure if we're supposed to assume he did it on his own or not.
4. I was a little upset about Ryld biting the bullet...er claw.
5. Characters
a. Valas rules! I wonder what he's gonna do now that he's stuck with the hand maidens?
b. Halistra really bores me, she's my least favorite character.
c. Phauren is my favorite, I'm partial to witty smart-asses.
d. Jegrid is funny only because he's a stupid oaf who likes to mutilate things.
e. the others are all about the same
6. Not too sure about the whole time flux/confusion aspect of the Demon Web Pits being destroyed hundreds of years before the party went there as spirits in book IV? I guess I'll find out in a few weeks when book VI is released, hopefully.
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~It's all in your head~ |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2005 : 17:46:12
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quote:
Originally posted by MR. T
1.anxiously awaiting book VI!!!
Get in line. I'm checking each day to see if any online vendors have it in stock. 
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3. I have no clue how Nimor got out of the shadow plane? That wasn't explained at all and I'm not sure if we're supposed to assume he did it on his own or not.
I'm curious to see if this is addressed in Book VI.
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a. Valas rules! I wonder what he's gonna do now that he's stuck with the hand maidens?
I'd exit stage left if I was him.
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c. Phauren is my favorite, I'm partial to witty smart-asses.
Any character who worries about his shirt as a priestess of Lolth is berating him has style.
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d. Jegrid is funny only because he's a stupid oaf who likes to mutilate things.
Boring would be the word to describe him. He's the X factor that allows the characters to get out of impossible situations. |
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Sorenna_Melruth
Acolyte
24 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2005 : 21:18:13
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Hmmm
I too am having a hard time like Hallistra after Ryld's death, I just can't bring myself to like her and The crescent Blade sounds like something that a priest of Corellon would have not Eilistree...but still.Moving right along on that topic. I have been reading the novels faithful and so far, all my favorite characters are either disappearing, dying or becomeing so alien to me they no longer appeal. I think this might be the only problem with Round Robin writing books with the same characters in them. Though the writing is wonderful I fear that the characters suffer for it.
I am annoyed at the loss of Gromph, he was my favorite of the drow in Menzoberranzan, but prehaps this means people will recall that the Spider Mage does still exsist but seems to be forgotten. I do not like Aliessa(sp) she ruined a great deal of the book for me, she wants to help she doesn't she thinks she loves one man, she is in love with another, I'd personally like to see her replaced period. Yet thats because I tend to be more structured, the other people I have talked to who read the book also surprisingly disliked her, so it wasn't just me.
As the book draws closer and closer to a close I think that prehaps Danifae is going to wind up in Lloth's high favor and possiable become either a Proxy or the manifestation of the goddess, after betraying Quentel, who has already been returned to life by the goddess once. This is just my opinion in this. Valas seems less likely to betray the others in my opinion though I think he might just wind up removing himself completely from the story in the process.
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History is written by those who survive such terriable times,and every person is a hero, and every person is a villan it depends on who's telling the tale. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2005 : 03:58:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Sorenna_Melruth
Valas seems less likely to betray the others in my opinion though I think he might just wind up removing himself completely from the story in the process.
Valas was asked an important question at the end of this novel by Phaeraun. I'm curious to see how he responds. I for one think it's time for him to exit stage left. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2005 : 04:37:15
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| I can actually imagine Valas betraying someone in the group. In fact, the person I think that would not betray anybody according to the prophecy would be Pharaun. This is just because it would be the kind of twist that the authors would pull. After all, our most obvious guesses would be Valas and Jeggred, right? I mean, one is a loyal mercenary of Bregan D'Arthe while the other is a loyal creature of House Baenre. Then you have Pharaun, who spent like the entire series backstabbing, creating deceptions and just being plain devious. It would be one of those "shocking moments" to then find out he's the one who's actually the "loyal" member of the party. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Sorenna_Melruth
Acolyte
24 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2005 : 04:58:35
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Actually Jeggred already betrayed people, he shows more alliance to Danifae then he does to Quintel in the books in my opinion. It could be Pharaun who doesn't betray anyone true, and it would be a good twist.
Gave me something to think about. |
History is written by those who survive such terriable times,and every person is a hero, and every person is a villan it depends on who's telling the tale. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2005 : 05:06:55
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Then you have Pharaun, who spent like the entire series backstabbing, creating deceptions and just being plain devious. It would be one of those "shocking moments" to then find out he's the one who's actually the "loyal" member of the party.
Pharaun's often shown to be the most dedicated party member to their mission. Although, in typical drow fashion, I recall him musing in one novel that regardless of the outcome of Lolth's silence, he wanted to end up on the right side. I hope he does. |
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elven_songstress
Learned Scribe
126 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2005 : 09:11:23
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I too think it would be an interesting twist but Valas is my favorite character in the books so far, with Nimor a close second. I like the mage as well grudgingly so, he has class to be worrying about his hair being a mess, and wanting to know if it looked ok since he hadn't washed it in days.
I once knew a drow bard who was like that, before the books came out mind you. |
We need to be reminded sometimes that a sunrise lasts but a few minutes,but its beauty can burnin our hearts eternally." |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2005 : 16:45:26
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| I dont like a single one of the books Athans has written, so I wasn`t to disappointed. Loith coming back though was a huge disappointment, since I`ve always hated her with a vengeance. A real pity, I was hoping to see Menzoberranzan sacked, but wotc are drow-lovers, so it`s not going to happen. My opinion can be summed up like this: Glory to Eilistraee! Death to those spiderloving scum who worship that bitch Loith!!!!!! |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Annihilation (WOTSQ Book 5) Spoilers
