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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 16:16:24
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Well, after being fairly dry in my arguments here, I've decided to stick to topics that are less controversial until I've lived down my rather embarrassing reputation for posting about iconics vs. not. 
This particular topic is one that I hope everyone can enjoy. The Harpers was a series that was my first real introduction to the Realms and a series that I'm quite fond of. I actually read it before I knew what the Forgotten Realms were.
I was rather saddened when the series ended at Thornhold but I felt that it had a wonderful run showing all the various members of that vast and intriguing organization.
What were your favorite books and experiences in the Harpers?
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Aglaranna
Learned Scribe
166 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 20:38:31
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Sadly, most Harper novels are out of print... I know this, because I became a Realms fanatic a decade too late...*sigh* So, back to haunting used bookstores!
So far, my favorites are Crown of Fire and Stormlight, and, of course, Songs and Swords series, which ISN'T out of print! (Halleujah!) I really want to find the Parched Sea, and Red Magic, and the Night Parade, and definitely the Ring of Winter...And every other book in the Harper series that I don't have!  |
"You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose the path that's clear
I will choose freewill." -'Freewill' by Rush |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 23:30:20
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| Definitely the Arilyn/Danilo books, Stormlight, and Ring of Winter. But honestly, I haven't read all of them yet--many are out of print and hard to find. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 00:51:12
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| they all were my favorites. I especially liked Elaine's contributions. The ring of winter was also cool. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 02:56:35
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| Some were good Realms novels, some less so. Some were good novels in their own right, but not good Realms novels. I don't think the series was more than the sum of its parts; I didn't discern much in the way of coherent themes about the Harpers, and many of the protagonists were essentially lone heroes who needn't have been Harpers at all, which is a misleading way to present a group that works based on intelligence and contact between its members, and the series also served to overexpose the Harpers. So I don't remember it too fondly as a whole. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 03:28:07
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| There were novels in the series that I loved, like Elaine's books (I finished Elfshadow the day I got it) and the aforementioned Ring of Winter. Some books I enjoyed, but not as much as I liked those. And, there were a few books I flat out couldn't stand. So it's pretty much like any series of novels: some hit, some miss. |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 03:28:25
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it overexposed the harpers, due to the fact that the entire 16 book series was ABOUT the harpers. It would be kind of wierd to have aseries about something and then not talk about it  You are correct, some were better than others though |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 05:16:59
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
It would be kind of wierd to have aseries about something and then not talk about it
Of course, but they didn't have to decide to give a whole series that gimmick.
(You made me remember the time someone on REALMS-L criticized FOR4 The Code of the Harpers for going on about the Harpers...) |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 05:45:05
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The Harper books do have its good and its bad parts, but the series still contains many of my favorite Realms novels (Nightparade, Sword and Song books, Crown of Fire, Soldiers of Ice and Mark Anthonys two books). These were the novels that along with the two old campaign setting boxes gave me the mental picture of the Realms I still have.
I must admit that the series lost some of its appeal to me in the later stages, but this goes for realms-books in general for me. Still miss the series though. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 05:58:34
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Yes, it gave me the terminal impression the Harpers were essentially a group of lone heroes out doing good with almost no contact between them.
My players got the same impression and our games have since made that Harpership is almost negligible in its importance.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 20:13:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
...and the series also served to overexpose the Harpers.
I think I agree, here--when I was first getting into the Realms about six years ago, it seemed--based on everything I was reading--that the Harpers had there hands in everything, that they were the largest (if not only) important group for "good guys", and that every "major" good guy in the Realms was either a member or was their ally. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 07 Jan 2007 20:13:43 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 21:16:01
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I always assumed the Harpers from the books that the Harpers were THE goodly organization and the only one really active across the Realms. We haven't exactly got a book called "Lords of Goodness" after all. Recent experiences (and these boards) have implied otherwise but they were treated as the big kids on the block.
That disappointed me but I didn't mind that they were portrayed as the boy's club for heroes when I first read them. What DID annoy me was that they were all such a disaffected group of loners and spies. It seemed EVERYONE was made a member with almost no difficulty. Alias, Arilyn Moonblade, Danillo Thann, three Seven Sisters, can you add ANYONE who reacts to authority worse?
Aside from generically fighting evil, I never got the impression that they had any overriding goals or purpose until Ed made them fighting the Cthulian Malaguaym.
The Paladins of Salamar took me by surprise and made me think there might be other Knighthoods but we haven't seen any save it and that Order seemed destroyed in Thornhold to my shock. I wish they had been made a larger organization. The only other Paladin order I know of was the one mentioned in the Halloween issue of Dragon some years back with Rebecca of Cryptgarden. A paladin that defeated a Pendalagalan. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 22:37:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I always assumed the Harpers from the books that the Harpers were THE goodly organization and the only one really active across the Realms. We haven't exactly got a book called "Lords of Goodness" after all.
Well, there is Champions of Valor, and that only provided a sampling of good organizations in the Realms.
And as for what you always assumed about the Harpers...well, yeah, that's why Faraer called the Harpers overexposed--apparently a lot of people assumed the Harpers are the only ones fighting for peace, justice, etc.
Lastly, Faerun has tons of paladin orders, and has for a long time. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 07 Jan 2007 22:39:21 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 22:58:15
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You don't have to tell me that.
My problem isn't their lack of existence, my problem is their underdevelopment.
Paladins seem to randomly appear in the Realms when we know that's probably extremely unlikely. It's tragic the only book that develops a Paladin's order is done by Elaine Cunningham whom had her opinion influenced by the fanatical depiction of paladins in The Complete Book of Paladins.
The book that had this line "What will a paladin do when forced to choose between tithing and feeding his starving family?"
Man...what?
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2007 : 14:09:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
You don't have to tell me that.
My problem isn't their lack of existence, my problem is their underdevelopment.
Paladins seem to randomly appear in the Realms when we know that's probably extremely unlikely. It's tragic the only book that develops a Paladin's order is done by Elaine Cunningham whom had her opinion influenced by the fanatical depiction of paladins in The Complete Book of Paladins.
The book that had this line "What will a paladin do when forced to choose between tithing and feeding his starving family?"
Man...what?
I take it you are not personally familiar with fundamentalists of any stripe. Having heard very similar questions debated by real people in real life, I don't find it particulary unbelievable that some paladins might think in this manner.
Simply put, some paladins ARE fanatics. That said, the practical definition of fanaticism is "people who believe in something more strongly that you yourself do." And with that in mind, and because of the very nature of paladins, I suspect that ANY depiction is likely to bump up against someone's definition of what it means to devote one's life to the cause of a righteous god and live by a strict code of morality and conduct.
It's probably this very difficulty that explains why there are so few paladins in starring roles. Also, readers' tastes are currently leaning toward gray characters and anti-heroes; they do not, as a whole, gravitate toward paladin-like characters (unless they are scimitar-wielding drow...). The reviews of Greg's Keye's excellent fantasy epic tend to be highly critical of his well-drawn knightly character. Offhand, I can't think of any other examples of paladin-like characters in shared-world or creator-owned fantasy. That, imo, is telling.
It may be admirable for a shared-world writer to devote months to writing a book that will round out the line but will probably not develop much of a following, but it's not very practical.
Unfortunately, paladins, like members of any other organizations in which belief plays an important part, tend to be viewed as representatives of a whole rather than unique individuals. People bring a whole different level of accountability to the depiction of a paladin than they would to, say, a wizard. No one expect a wizard to be representative of ALL wizards, but readers often find it difficult to consider THIS paladin, not ALL paladins. The paladins in THORNHOLD are members of a small military order with a specific mission, no more "typical" of D&D paladins than the Knights Templar are representative of Catholics in general. If I were writing about a 13th century nun who took a vow of silence and mortification, I wouldn't assume that readers would criticise the character because she was not a "typical" medieval religious, because, hey, that was sort of the point.
I wouldn't expect to see a proliferation of paladin protagonists any time soon.
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Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 08 Jan 2007 14:27:16 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2007 : 14:38:56
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Actually, Elaine, unfortunately I live in the middle of the Bible Belt. I grew up as a man whom felt a very strong calling towards religion and only barely escaped becoming a fundamentalist traitor to my faith because I honestly felt God warned me against it directly.
Part of what I think is the disconnect is that most gamers I've played with consider paladins exemplars as opposed to fanatics. They don't represent fanatical adherance to dogma but pure devotion to the spirit of the text as opposed to being the lunatics. I always had the image that Paladins would probably end up martyred by members of their own faith more often than not when they involved themselves in Dogma because they represent genuine goodness as opposed to fanaticism. A paladin whom puts his faith before others loses both. This is probably because of the "Jesus Dilemma" where I always tend to think that religious heroes are more interesting when God puts them at odds with their own faiths.
I can't lecture you though on the characters because you wrote an extraordinarily good story and my personal preferences aren't things that have any reflection on TSR's own policy. I just take note that they have a direct line to God to judge their behavior and if Tyr isn't a fanatic or Torm then why should their chosen champions? The guys they depend on to deliver justice with a blade? You need a guy who is compassionate and merciful in equal parts to his commitment to evil.
Paladin brings up Luke Skywalker not the Salem Witch Trials.
In any case, I don't consider the Knights of Salamar to be typical of Paladins. I just wish we'd seen one whom wasn't incredibly dense. You managed to successfully bring out that the Knights were lead by a man utterly blinded to his children's needs, infiltrated by a powerful agent of evil within their ranks, and also slowly rotted on the vine in their own complacency. While I wish we'd gotten the sequel to see the Paladin Lord in action in the sequel, I still love Thornhold.
Bronwyn actually surpasses Arilyn for my favorite character in the Realms. There's just something lovable and sexy about her in equal parts.
Thanks for commenting! I hope you can comment on more parts of this thread as discuss other aspects of your book. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 08 Jan 2007 14:45:58 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2007 : 15:17:16
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One thing I'd also like to comment on is that I always was grateful for Finder's Bane because Finder is a neglected god of the Pantheon in my opinion. The whole idea of Finder actively working towards expanding his portfolio seemed like an excellent plot to follow even as his priest prevents the resurrection of Bane by himself.
I also liked the idea being Stormlight. Storm needs more novels to herself, she's my favorite of the Seven for reasons I can't really understand. Probably her Bardliness.
;-)
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 08 Jan 2007 15:43:48 |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2007 : 15:44:08
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I never saw Hronulf as blind to his children's needs. The family was raised in comfortable circumstances in a small village. The location was hidden, and they were not without protection. Nor were they neglected. His oldest son had been well trained in arms, the others were too young for much formal schooling. Of course, the raid scene is depicted through young Bran's eyes, and would therefore be shaped by a child's perspective. Later in the story it was intimated that the raid would not had occurred if Sir Gareth hadn't betrayed the location of Hronulf's family.
As a parent, I know only too well the balancing act involved in raising children. There are times when parents, in pursuit of their duty/livelihood, have to leave the family, whether it's a baseball player who has a week off away games for every week in the home stadium, or an executive who works long hours, or parents who piece together a living from three or four jobs. There are times when ANY parent is torn between being with the kids and providing for them, and all of us know that if something terrible happened to our kids when we were away, we'd be haunted for the rest of our lives. I don't imagine Hronulf was any different. And if he seemed stiff with Bronwyn upon their reunion, bear in mind that he hadn't seen her for over twenty years. She was about four years old when she disappeared, so to all purposes, she was a complete stranger to him.
It's easy to assume parents are absent because they are uncaring, or even negligent. Most of the time, parents are simply juggling too many demands on our time and making the difficult choices involved in finding a balance. And sometimes, we get it wrong.
And sometimes even the RIGHT decision can end up being the wrong one. It was never said WHAT took Hronulf away from the village the day of the raid. (Because that's not something that Bran, the child narrator of that scene, would be likely to know.) Most likely the choice Hronulf made seemed the right one at the time--and if not for Sir Gareth's betrayal, it probably would have been.
Your point about paladins having a "direct line to god" is well taken, but frankly, this is another thing that makes writing about paladins difficult, and makes it less likely that writers will take on this task. There isn't a lot of wiggle room here; if you assume that a) a paladin always knows the right thing to do and b) he must do it, or else he c) ceases to be a paladin, you run the risk of writing a story that either ignores the intricacies and subtlties of faith, or makes that the focus of the story--not exactly typical sword and sorcery fare.
I'm not saying a good paladin story CAN'T be written, just that it would be a pretty tough balancing act. |
Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 08 Jan 2007 15:56:54 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2007 : 16:03:44
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Thanks for the defense of Sir Hronulf there. One thing I've noticed in Thornhold (and also Elfshadow-which makes it a Harpers point than a Swords and Songs point) is the fact that both Bronwyn and Arilyn meet with their long lost fathers...and both really have nothing to say to them.
It's a tragic but realistic point that Bran and Hronulf have missed out on any chance to get to shape who their daughters will be with neither Bronwyn or Arilyn going to 'forgive them' for this loss. Even if Bronwyn bears no ill will towards Hronulf, there's nothing that they have in common or can really talk about. She's a Harper and shopkeeper while he's a theologian. Their conversation where he asks about her life and chastity that's just tragic in its lack of common ground.
As for Paladins, you're right really. You either have to right them as people who don't draw their moral strength from their God but have simply been chosen to be the champions of their God without their knowledge or approval (Oddly, Robin of Sherwood if you've ever seen the British series comes to mind along with Arilyn and Luke Skywalker) or you have to write them as being instruments of divine will.
It might be a flaw of the Paladin class itself since its based on being a combination of various Knight types whom were anything but uniform in their allegiance or behavior. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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The Harpers [spoilers]
