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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Jul 2004 : 16:34:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Gotrex
Yeh i never thought it would happen because as i said WOTC like menzo
doesnt stop me wanting it to happen :)
I understand Gortex. I understand.  Moreover, I recall you on the WOTC boards expressing similar feelings.
Am I the only one in reading this novel's prologue and seeing a parallel to an emerging party member? I have a feeling I know who will be the new face/aspect of the Spider Queen. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2004 : 18:50:38
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Okies,
I got about 2 chapters left but I feel I can comment now.
Did any one else feel that this book just didn't make any sense? She left the Abyss centuries ago, yet the group traveled to her realm in 1372/1373 and the temple was closed. Talk about confusing the reader to all Nine Hells and back.
Also it seemed as if this novel dragged on.... I have to agree with Sirius, this novel just doesn't seem to fit in with the series at all... Also what happened to Ryld's werecreature abilities, that fight scene was a little unreasonable if he was a werecreature... But then again all the characters just seem off. Jeg not obeying his aunt, um okay WTF...... |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 04 Jul 2004 21:49:54 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2004 : 01:32:27
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Okies,
Did any one else feel that this book just didn't make any sense?
Two other questions that perhaps someone can help explain to me regarding this novel.
Aliiza on the ship/boat (whatever) asks Phaeraun at one moment, "Who is that?" after Danifae has briefly talked to him. (I think it's page 212, but don't quote me on that).
Excuse me? Who is that? After the big incident in Insurrection when she last left Phaeraun, how could she forget what Danifae looked like?
Second, is it just me or was anyone else expecting, after the conclusion of Extinction for Nimor to spend at least some period of time in the Plane of Shadows? |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2004 : 01:53:27
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Two other questions that perhaps someone can help explain to me regarding this novel.
Aliiza on the ship/boat (whatever) asks Phaeraun at one moment, "Who is that?" after Danifae has briefly talked to him. (I think it's page 212, but don't quote me on that).
Excuse me? Who is that? After the big incident in Insurrection when she last left Phaeraun, how could she forget what Danifae looked like?
Second, is it just me or was anyone else expecting, after the conclusion of Extinction for Nimor to spend at least some period of time in the Plane of Shadows?
I didn't catch those two things, hmm but now that you mention them, they make even less sense as well.
I have to say, the 5th novel was the wrost one of the 5 so far.... It just left me going HUH? WTF over and over again.... |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 05 Jul 2004 04:37:48 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2004 : 04:02:01
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
I didn't catch those two things, hmm but now that you mention them, they make even less sense as well.
They leaped out at me and I was hoping that with Nimor, I just missed something. |
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Freakboy
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 20:26:45
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I have about 60 or so pages left and I can't find anything that explains how Nimor got out of the plane of shadows at all. I went back and double checked under any mention of him I could find, and there was nothing.
On the issue of Jeggred disobeying Quenthel and deciding to follow Danifae, I think that is to show either that Quenthel is growing weak and thus Jeggred refuses to follow her, or that Danifae may be more than she appears and that is why he is following her. Either way it doesn't make a lot of sense in the context of Jeggred's slavish devotion to Quenthel up til now.
I was disappointed in Ryld's death insomuch as it seems it was done more to move the plot along from Halisstra's side of things than for any real reason of its own. Now Halisstra is free to just go ahead and kill Lolth I guess...
On the issue of the cosmology flub up, I suspect that the cosmology continuity issues vary so much from author to author that there is little hope of enforcing canon. The cosmology seems to change from author to author and Wizards seems to care little for enforcing that paticular aspect of their dogma.
Overall, I like this book better than Extinction, but both (Extinction and Annihilation) have been my least favorite of the 5 books so far. Here's hoping that Paul Kemp puts together an awesome finish so that we can walk away feeling good about the ending. That would make up for the somewhat lower quality in my mind of the last two books.
Let me finish by saying that this is still the best fantasy fiction series I have ever read and I think a good percentage of my disappointment in the last two books has been a result of my own impossibly high expectations for the series. The books are all still very good, but I would have to score them like this.
Dissolution 10/10
Insurrection 10/10
Condemnation 10/10
Extinction 7/10
Annihilation 8/10 (so far, still have to finish last 60 pages, might change score if I am really impressed with the last 60 pages or so)
I still highly recommend the books to everyone, and I want to emphasize that your personal experience with the last two books could be much more positive than my own. |
Edited by - Freakboy on 06 Jul 2004 20:33:10 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 20:59:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Freakboy
I have about 60 or so pages left and I can't find anything that explains how Nimor got out of the plane of shadows at all. I went back and double checked under any mention of him I could find, and there was nothing.
Thanks Freakboy for mentioning your lack of finding anything explaining this plot element.
quote:
On the issue of Jeggred disobeying Quenthel and deciding to follow Danifae, I think that is to show either that Quenthel is growing weak and thus Jeggred refuses to follow her, or that Danifae may be more than she appears and that is why he is following her. Either way it doesn't make a lot of sense in the context of Jeggred's slavish devotion to Quenthel up til now.
Doesn't Danifae remind you as a reader of the opening pages describing the various spiders?
quote:
I was disappointed in Ryld's death insomuch as it seems it was done more to move the plot along from Halisstra's side of things than for any real reason of its own. Now Halisstra is free to just go ahead and kill Lolth I guess...
I just don't see that happening. There is now way WOTC will let Menzo, Lolth, or certain characters who were part of the FR world prior to this series, be killed.
quote:
On the issue of the cosmology flub up, I suspect that the cosmology continuity issues vary so much from author to author that there is little hope of enforcing canon. The cosmology seems to change from author to author and Wizards seems to care little for enforcing that paticular aspect of their dogma.
Well, if there are major changes to the drow and/or cosmology, it would allow WOTC to publish a new gaming product wouldn't it?
quote:
Let me finish by saying that this is still the best fantasy fiction series I have ever read
Best fantasy series or best FR fantasy series? If the latter, I can see the argument. If you mean the former, this series is good, but does not reach the level of some other excellent series within the large fantasy world. |
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Freakboy
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2004 : 02:48:00
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Sorry, I should clarify, I did mean best FR Fantasy Fiction I have read. It would still rate high in the other category as well, but not at the top.
Danifae, does remind me of the spiders in the opening. I try not to read too much into that though, because its a little difficult to tell at this point if Salvatore is being literal or if the spiders are a metaphor for the Drow race. Maybe he wrote it that way on purpose *shrugs*
One theory I have is that the prologs are a metaphor for the Drow race in that Lolth has had her chosen "children" weading each other out for millenia in order to find her new chosen vessel "the strongest and most clever spider". Taken in that context, it would appear that Quenthel and Danifae are the last two spiders waiting to eliminate each other to become "top of the food chain". That would also provide some explanation for the bit at the end where Quenthel is told she was Lolths "chosen" whatever that might mean. Perhaps another metaphor.
One thing I know for sure is that there are still many questions to be answered and the last book is almost a year away  Anyway, good talking with you about it. Here's hoping that Resurrection gets released a month or two early. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2004 : 04:16:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Freakboy
One thing I know for sure is that there are still many questions to be answered and the last book is almost a year away Anyway, good talking with you about it. Here's hoping that Resurrection gets released a month or two early.
Go to Paul Kemp's thread and demand that right away!  |
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Twilight Herald
Acolyte
Australia
14 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2004 : 17:29:52
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| Since it doesn't look like either Extinction or Annihilation will make an appearance in Australian bookstores anytime soon ( at least not up here in Brisbane ), but I still need to work this material into my FR Underdark campaign, would some kind soul on these boards be able to give me a quick summary of these 2 latest WOTSQ novels ( storyline / character development / major events, etc )? |
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Freakboy
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2004 : 19:03:41
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@Twighlight Herald
I can do that for you, but I am at work right now and can't take the time necessary to go through it all. If someone else doesn't get to it before I do, I will try to work something up in the next couple of days. Additionally, you might try to find an online review of the two books as an additional source of information. |
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Phantom_Lord
Seeker
Pakistan
92 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2004 : 15:31:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Ignorance Personified
quote:
Come back after you finish and share your full thoughts on the tome. I'm curious to discuss this book, it's bringing forth a wide range of emotions from me.
SPOILERS
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Action packed to say the least. I thought that Valas and Danifae's trip into the City of Portals was an interesting diversion from the other "pivotal" events of the tome. Jeggred's killing of Ryld, who I thought was the most interesting character and thus my favorite, was not really a suprise (Ryld's tomented existence and the interior book jacket hinted at it) and not unwanted by Ryld as he had nothing to live for besides love(a drow living for that would be prepostorous). Gromph vs Dyrr will indeed go down in drow wizadry history as it has banishment to Halfling Heaven, destroying a staff of power, asteriods,summoning, a lich drow turning into a construct, Gromph being petrefied, and the return of a goddess---even the Elminster series will have trouble outdoing that. I personally think that this was the most interesting part of the book. The format allows the fight to always be in the readers mind but never lingers to long for the reader to become bored with it. A side note, I have lost interest with Hallistra now that Ryld is gone, though things should pick up when she goes hunting with the Cresent Blade.
Side Note:
This novel helped shine the light, in my mind, on why the male drow follow Lloth. I had previously always believed fear alone would not lead to the devotion shown by Gromph and many of the other male citizens. Though the drow would not admit it openly, though Pharaun admitted it to himself, they are driven by the masses of others who follow and therefore see no alternative outside of service to Lloth and The City of Spiders-->they will never feel at "home" outside of Menzo. Hence, Ryld dies and waits for the Spider Queen to call him to eternity because everyone else waits with him.
I would be grateful to any kind folk here on the boards to point me to a write-up of the events that have transpired as such. Anyone, please?
This is so exciting... |
Ponka! Kaddu! |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2004 : 06:11:04
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
However, I really wish the authors would decide which cosmology they are going to use. Lloth's realm doesn't reside on the 666 layer of the Abyss any more! I noticed this also with Paul's second Cale novel, he makes references to Limbo which doesn't exist either....
Sigh please, please, please, pick a cosmology and stick with it!
And every time a reference to the Great Wheel cosmology is made, an arcanaloth gets their fangs.  |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2004 : 09:27:28
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
However, I really wish the authors would decide which cosmology they are going to use. Lloth's realm doesn't reside on the 666 layer of the Abyss any more!
Sigh please, please, please, pick a cosmology and stick with it!
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
I was curious as to how that change would go over on these boards.
Umm, I think that was the whole point ... to explain the change. Lolth used to reside in the Abyss (2e) and now has her own plane (3e). Just like Elaine Cunningham's "Windwalker" explains why drow magic items don't usually decay on the surface any more, they've explained away a continuity glitch from the persepective of the novels.
At least that's my reading of it.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2004 : 10:48:44
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Umm, I think that was the whole point ... to explain the change. Lolth used to reside in the Abyss (2e) and now has her own plane (3e). Just like Elaine Cunningham's "Windwalker" explains why drow magic items don't usually decay on the surface any more, they've explained away a continuity glitch from the persepective of the novels.
At least that's my reading of it.
--Eric
That might be true but I don't buy that, because earlier in that book tehre are passages that mention the Barrans of Doom and Despair, as well as passages of Eilistraee living on Arvandor, etc. So they took 1 layer from 2e and explained away how Lloth changed her plane to the plane of the Abyss, which is cool, but leaving the rest of the planes in the 3e FR material as having already existed. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 10 Jul 2004 19:07:26 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2004 : 14:06:35
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
Umm, I think that was the whole point ... to explain the change. Lolth used to reside in the Abyss (2e) and now has her own plane (3e).
At least that's my reading of it.
--Eric
Umm, yeah, I got that. My comment was in reference to the fact that the moment I read that part of the novel, I thought of what the reaction would be to this plot element from some scribes at Candlekeep.
Sorry if that wasn't clear.
SB |
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Strahd Von Zarovich
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
135 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 20:28:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Freakboy
On the issue of Jeggred disobeying Quenthel and deciding to follow Danifae, I think that is to show either that Quenthel is growing weak and thus Jeggred refuses to follow her, or that Danifae may be more than she appears and that is why he is following her. Either way it doesn't make a lot of sense in the context of Jeggred's slavish devotion to Quenthel up til now.
I do believe that if you really read into those opening chapters you will find that there are roots being planted at the Jeggreds betrayal.
There are a few times while aboard the ship where the Quenthel/Jeggred relationship was starting to get strained. I think that Jeggred feels, too often, that Pharaun gets away with too much and Quenthel lets him.
I think it is in the part where they talk that the demon captain of the boat is probably planning something, that says it best. Pharaun says that basically it is the nature of a demon to do something, and that you can never trust them, and he expects pretty much of the same from Jeggred.
Couldn't have been a more obvious set up, for what is to come later.
Thats just my thoughts anyway
Strahd Von Zarovich |
Strahd Von Zarovich
Alaundo and I invite fans of everything D&D to join us!
http://www.worldsofdnd.com |
Edited by - Strahd Von Zarovich on 12 Jul 2004 21:32:10 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 21:18:55
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Jeggred's shift to Danifae to me is clearly foreshadowed within the novel. I will also say this, Pharaun can think all he wants about friendship making a drow weak.
However, he was fond of Ryld. Thus, if I were Jeggred, I'd be very careful around Pharaun as I think, if the opportunity presents itself, the mage will strike out at the beast. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2004 : 22:24:24
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
That might be true but I don't buy that, because earlier in that book tehre are passages that mention the Barrans of Doom and Despair, as well as passages of Eilistraee living on Arvandor, etc. So they took 1 layer from 2e and explained away how Lloth changed her plane to the plane of the Abyss, which is cool, but leaving the rest of the planes in the 3e FR material as having already existed.
I agree, that's exactly what they did.
However, from the point of the novels (specifically drow novels by Salvatore), they've only ever mentioned the Abyss and Lolth's residence therein. So, if you're primarily a dark elf novel reader, you're two pending continuity questions would be "why don't the drow items decay anymore" and "isn't Lolth in the Abyss"?
In other words, from the point of view of the novels, only the Abyss/Demonweb Pits continuity glitch needs to be explained. There may be other ones to explain by other authors, but Salvatore is done.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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ChosenOne
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 20:46:23
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I enjoyed the book as a whole, bought it last friday and finished reading it yesterday.
There's only a few things I were disappointed with...
The lack of actions taken by Pharaun when Jeggred killed Ryld and also the lack of actions after having to kill the Demon(Belshazu) by himself because of Quenthel.
We'll see in the next novel if anything comes out of it, but this is not the way I pictured Pharaun from the beginning and actually, now that Lolth is back, he had nothing to lose by killing both priestesses and making his way back to Menzo by himself, or with Valas. |
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ChosenOne
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2004 : 20:59:12
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One more thing...
Why did Danifae let Hallistra go? She should have killed her while she had the chance. I really can't seem to find a good reason as to why she helped Hallistrae... anyone? |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 08:43:43
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| That bothered me also. Danifae's motivation's aren't explained very clearly. She despises Hallistra, but doesn't attack her, or even act against her in any real way. Her only payback is arranging Ryld's death, which, while considerable, just isn't enough. Hopefully she'll be developed more in the next book. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2004 : 09:54:17
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| Danifae didn't strike out probably because she knew Halisstra could've destroyed her easily. After all, Halisstra had her clerical powers. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2004 : 14:50:17
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quote:
Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo
Danifae didn't strike out probably because she knew Halisstra could've destroyed her easily. After all, Halisstra had her clerical powers.
She's the spider watching until the right moment to strike. |
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Llmryn Xorlarrin
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2004 : 21:26:34
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I'm not sure how much I like Danifae, but she is an interesting character.
My favorite is still Pharaun. It's nice to see a male drow with a sharp wit and saracastic tongue. I'm curious what Pharaun will do next, now that Lolth has returned. All that's certain is that he will do what's best for himself. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2004 : 23:14:26
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First off, welcome Llmryn Xorlarrin to the forums. Please feel free to start a thread in the Welcome to the Forums section introducing yourself.
quote:
Originally posted by Llmryn Xorlarrin
My favorite is still Pharaun. It's nice to see a male drow with a sharp wit and saracastic tongue.
And good fashion sense. After all, look how concerned he was in Book IV with the snow getting his clothing wet. 
quote:
I'm curious what Pharaun will do next, now that Lolth has returned. All that's certain is that he will do what's best for himself.
Absolutely, he as much said so himself in one of the other previous novels. It should be interesting to see what's in store for him and Quenthel given both of them were noticed by the Spider Queen before this entire series began. |
Edited by - SiriusBlack on 17 Jul 2004 23:18:06 |
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Ordin_Solandar
Acolyte
Canada
40 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2004 : 02:13:08
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Why Mr. Athans, why o why did you have to turn Kanyr Vohlk green, give him a long sword, and the physique of an elf! Anyhow I am sorry to say that the time schedule for the later WOTSQ books wasn't really that well thought out. There have been far to many continuity errors regarding how characters act and what they look like over books 4-5. Not to say that they arn't very good reads, Athan's Gromph stuff was pure gold. But I am a little dissapointed .
In book 3 weapons master Andrezel weilds a double bladded sword, in book 4 he gets stuck with a long sword....
Oh well undertaking such a damanding project in such a short time probably left very little room for Ras to edit all the sticky issues.
Anyhow thats my spin on books 4-5. |
Its easy not to care what people think, it harder to try! |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2004 : 04:00:26
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I actually think Book 5 is much better than Book 3 and 4. If I were to rank the series from best to worst, the order would be: 1, 5, 2, 3, 4 (Extinction is pure boredom because it is an interlude between two major events and that it involves too much with a very boring deity called Eilistraee).
Things I like about Book 5:
1) Triel is becoming yet stronger and independent.
2) Lolth is back (YES!)
3) The surprising findings of Lolth's plans
4) Ryld is gone (He deserves to die for being weak)
5) Alizzsa flirting yet more
6) The encounter and killing of the stupid halfling
Things I dislike about Book 6:
1) Quenthel acts like a fool
2) Danifae is childish
3) The philosophy behind Ryld's death is not very logical (Failure in adopting Hallistra's ways does not necessarily weaken him)
4) Hallistra still has this damn Cresent Blade/Lolth-slaying quest going
5) More boring Eilistraee stuff
6) No Lolthites kicking those juicy Eilistraseean asses
Things I'd like to see in Book 6:
1) Triel slaughters Quenthel when she comes back
2) Lolth starts her evil plans in conquering the surface/underdark
3) Eilistraee's faithfuls are massacured along with that pathetic Hallistra
4) Lolth becomes a Greater Deity
5) Faerun's balance of power weakens even further and drows actually start becoming a threat |
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AlacLuin
Learned Scribe
131 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2004 : 04:19:40
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Since I'm waiting for the books to come out in paperback, I have no idea why I'm on this thread.
I only read up to book 3, Lolth returns huh?
I cant wait... must.... buy.... hardcovers..... aaaahhhhhh......
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Ignorance Personified
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2004 : 22:11:40
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quote:
Originally Posted by: A bunch of random letters
Things I'd like to see in Book 6:
1) Triel slaughters Quenthel when she comes back
2) Lolth starts her evil plans in conquering the surface/underdark
3) Eilistraee's faithfuls are massacured along with that pathetic Hallistra
4) Lolth becomes a Greater Deity
5) Faerun's balance of power weakens even further and drows actually start becoming a threat
I agree with those, especially #3, but I would like to add
6) Jeggred gets killed/destroyed by anyone/anything.
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Carthago delenda est. |
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Topic |
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Annihilation (WOTSQ Book 5) Spoilers
