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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Oct 2023 : 16:42:15
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In my experience, what makes 5E characters so powerful is Death Saving Throws and Max HP at Level 1. These two things together make low-level 5E characters much more resilient than their AD&D cousins. No more 2HP Wizard/Magic-Users dying to a single stray arrow or 3HP Thief/Rogues getting cut down by one swing of a goblin dagger. Even when 5E characters are reduced to 0 HP, their companions have several rounds to stabilize or revive them -- assuming the dice don't do it for them, of which there is a greater than 50% chance.
I DMed 5E for years, including many of the official adventure paths, and the number of character deaths was much, much lower than it was in AD&D. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2023 : 23:44:48
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quote:
Originally posted by AzarYeah, okay. I remember the early-stage denial with 4e and now no one - save the fanatic advocates - refutes how much that system aped MMORPGs. This trend started with 3e and while it has peaked and dipped here and there (5e swung back to "regular" video games) the development paralleling the popularity of other forms of entertainment is unmistakable.
You just don't know how MMOs characters tend to work, or have never played one. Moreover, 5e has been out for almost 10 years. No one except 7 dudes on a forum are insisting that it feels like a MMO. But don't worry, typing *makes talking gesture with a hand* will surely help the credibility of your argument.
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Blatantly untrue, in quite a few cases: the 2e Cloak of Elvenkind, for instance, bestows its benefits on every class (you don't need to be a Thief, Ranger or similarly sneaky individual) whereas the 5e Cloak of Elvenkind is dependent on two "checks" and therefore feels a touch more artificial.
And blatantly irrelevant to the discussion. Point is, 5e magic items are not that powerful or abundant. Definitely not super-hero, unless you as a DM choose to make them so.
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No. Trying to trip someone is not what I had in mind. "Action Surge" and "Second Wind" are two examples clearly inspired by ARPGs.
Those aren't maneuvers, and they're certainly not super hero stuff (especially if you don't buy in the "HP=meat" explanation. And for the sake of your consistency, I hope you don't, because otherwise all D&D editions would feel like Dragonball to you: any high level character would be able to literally take 20 stabs in the face and still live. Then sleep it off like it was nothing).
Look, I don't like 5e (lately, I don't like D&D as a system altogether), and even I can see there isn't much supporting your points. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 08 Oct 2023 00:00:49 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2023 : 23:47:06
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
In my experience, what makes 5E characters so powerful is Death Saving Throws and Max HP at Level 1. These two things together make low-level 5E characters much more resilient than their AD&D cousins. No more 2HP Wizard/Magic-Users dying to a single stray arrow or 3HP Thief/Rogues getting cut down by one swing of a goblin dagger. Even when 5E characters are reduced to 0 HP, their companions have several rounds to stabilize or revive them -- assuming the dice don't do it for them, of which there is a greater than 50% chance.
I DMed 5E for years, including many of the official adventure paths, and the number of character deaths was much, much lower than it was in AD&D.
Sure, but players being able to invest in a character's personality and motivations because they don't have 2hp, hardly is "super hero" material. We're here to tell stories together: it's really hard to do that if you don't know who your character is beyond bare bones, because why even bother to flesh out a character you *know* is very likely to die prematurely, since they have 2 hp.
There's a difference between more safety and "super hero". Dying because you screwed up lends itself much better to build narratives, than dying because the moment any enemy decides to attack you, you're 90% dead. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 08 Oct 2023 00:03:27 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1308 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2023 : 00:01:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
*makes "talking" gesture with hand*
Does this mean what I think it means? I don't want to misconstrue an insult...but what does this even mean?
Along the lines of "I've heard this before." Though, this edition is nearing the end of its life...as far as official WOTC publications go, anyhow.
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
In my experience, what makes 5E characters so powerful is Death Saving Throws and Max HP at Level 1. These two things together make low-level 5E characters much more resilient than their AD&D cousins. No more 2HP Wizard/Magic-Users dying to a single stray arrow or 3HP Thief/Rogues getting cut down by one swing of a goblin dagger. Even when 5E characters are reduced to 0 HP, their companions have several rounds to stabilize or revive them -- assuming the dice don't do it for them, of which there is a greater than 50% chance.
I DMed 5E for years, including many of the official adventure paths, and the number of character deaths was much, much lower than it was in AD&D.
Right, but, let's get down to brass tax: is the 5e Wolf - with maximum Hit Points (as is the case for the original BG Candlekeep Wolf!) - as much of a threat to one or two Level 1 5e PCs? Remember how many uninitiated players cut their teeth on that ferocious canine cutting its teeth on them? |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2023 : 00:16:27
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I don't remember the Candlekeep wolf, but consider that a 5e wolf with max HP has 18 HP, AC=13 (which means lv 1 characters will need at least a 8 to hit), and deals 7 points of damage on average, with a +4 to hit. That may not look like much, but then you consider that a wolf has advantage on attack rolls if it has an ally near its target, and each attack will force a STR saving throw on PCs to avoid falling prone. The damage it does is pretty decent (7 points of damage vs the 15 HP a 16 CON *Barbarian* has, let alone your 8 HP 14 CON Wizard/Sorcerer). This means that if you put as little as 2 wolves in your encounter, a party of 2 lv 1 PC will be seriously threatened (and probably lose).
Is this as threatening as it was in 2e? Probably not. Is this still a threat? Yes. Would a super hero be threatened by a wolf? Of course not. On the other hand, consider this: does it make sense for 2 armed and armored fighters to lose to a single wolf? Probably not. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 08 Oct 2023 00:20:01 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2023 : 00:22:28
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| Returning to the topic, in BG3 enemies are a threat to you before lv 5. You don't feel like a super hero, and a random goblin can easily shoot your lv 2 PCs down. You need to sneak around, ambush enemies, use diplomacy or deception, etc... It's fun! Then you hit lv 5 and just steamroll everything into oblivion (even on the "high difficulty" setting). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 08 Oct 2023 00:23:38 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1308 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2023 : 01:03:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
That may not look like much, but then you consider
It was a solitary wolf: not two, not three and not a pack. Just one. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2023 : 03:29:27
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Compare this: http://dedpihto.narod.ru/games/Monsters1/MM00299.htm
to this:
https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Wolf#content
The 2e wolf is a ball of stat, and does less damage than the 5e wolf (2-5 vs 4-10; half, which is actually aligned with lv 1 5e PCs having roughly double than a a lv1 2e PC). I don't know what that Candlekeep wolf had, but maybe the devs bumped its stats and damage? Or am I missing something from the 2e statblock? Regardless, let's assume that a lone 2e wolf poses a greater threat than a lone 5e wolf.
1)The 5e wolf still is a threat to lv1 PCs, so it does its job just fine. There's no "super hero" encounter where 2 lv1 PCs can just shrug off a wolf (barring lucky rolls). You don't need (or want, save for niche gaming styles) a single wolf to be a lethal threat. I dunno why the devs put such an uber wolf at the beginning of the game. Maybe it served the same puroose as the Tree Sentinel in Elden Ring? i.e. it encouraged players to not bash heads against every apparently impossible encounter. Find different strategies, avoid the encounters, explore and lvl up a bit, etc... It stands that a single wolf shouldn't be lethal for the purpose of a general encounter.
2)You hardly meet wolves alone. They tend to hunt in packs. Fighting 1 random wolf alone doesn't make for an interesting or an immersive encounter gameplay-wise. 5e wolves shine in encounters with more than 1 of them--you know, the encounters that you're actually likely to use, because it's how wolves hunt. Also, this design allows the DM to use positioning to make wolves a menace to lv 1 PCs, and forces the players to do so themselves, in order for the wolves to not obliterate their 8 -15 HP lv 1 characters. 5e has a superior design in this sense.
3)It makes sense for a single wolf to lose hard against 2 lv1 PCs. Wolves are "cowardly" if you will. They attack in packs, and only actually attack if you run. They will hardly fight you if you're not wounded or ill and stand your ground, let alone if it's a lone wolf against 2 people. It makes little sense for 1 wolf to be willing to fight (and defeat!) 2 armed and armored humans. If you really want a wolf that wants to fight 2 armed and armored people, then use a dire wolf or whatever. Or just use a bear, it makes more sense for an aggressive lone wilderness encounter.
4)Even if the 5e wolf was overall weak, that would still be what I said in my original comment on this matter. 5e monsters would need a buff (past CR 5 IMHO), but 5e characters wouldn't really need a nerf to make the game more challenging. Example: give "boss" statblocks more than 1 action on their turn, or stuff that makes action economy more balanced between PCs and enemies. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 08 Oct 2023 03:54:52 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1308 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2023 : 05:22:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
2)You hardly meet wolves alone.
The 2e entry explains that Wolf attacks against Humans are a rarity. However, if you'll recall, the ecology of the Sword Coast (or, at least, the slice of it that the Bhaalspawn adventured along) was temporarily affected by Human/Demihuman intrusion...thanks to the Iron Crisis (specifically, members of the intelligent races that made their living by mining and/or smithing turned to other means of sustaining themselves, such as hunting); with the sudden increased competition, those quadrupedal hunters became desperate. All in all, it is a slightly unusual encounter, but far from impossible. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1308 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2023 : 00:02:57
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
This is actually the main reason why I stopped playing BG3. All the characters felt like high-school bullies. They were sarcastic, rude, and at times downright threatening (How often do Lae'zel and Astarion threaten to kill your character?). After a certain point, I had to put the game down for my own mental health. It felt like I was in a toxic relationship.
Something just came to mind: not only are the NPCs needlessly meanspirited at worst and casually abrasive at best, but the developer made a dog's breakfast out of two recurring characters. Bland "Elf" design aside, I shudder to think how they would have butchered Aerie. Remember Aerie the Avariel? Curious, sweet and open Aerie? Thankfully, she did not receive the modern "mature" fantasy treatment. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2023 : 08:32:30
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Which characters? Jaheira is still herself. Minsc seems still himself, but tadpoled (I haven't rescued him yet, so I don't know how he behaves when the tadpole's influence is suspended). Any other characters I'm not aware of?
As for the other point, Lae'zel and Astarion are abrasive and threatening (and I'd be surprised if those 2 weren't), but the others aren't. You can also opt to not recruit them, or send them away. There are wholesome companions too, like Karlach. Wyll is rather self-righteous, but he's a wholesome gentleman. Gale is arrogant to the point of stupidity, but he has honest intentions (at least in the first 2 acts, until arrogance truly gets to his head). Shadowheart is (literally) brainwashed and secretive, but even she--a Sharran--appreciates compassion. Considering all this, aside from looks, I don't think they'd have butchered Aerie (who was among my favorites in BG2). And honestly, they probably made the elves look like humans due to the their (very fae and IMO amazing) DOS2 elf design receiving complaints. They can very well make fae look like fae, but most players want elves to just be "hot", eternally young humans. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 12 Oct 2023 08:35:55 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1279 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2023 : 14:46:52
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| I do think Karlach's excessive swearing is needless and a bad design choice, meant to appeal to a very unappealing demographic (teenage boys!) in my opinion. It gave me the Netflix Witcher adapation vibes to see a nice/decent character drop F bombs every other word just because. And I really like Karlach otherwise! Much better than the other female fighter choice |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2023 : 20:10:01
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| Agree on that. I mean, some swearing is fine and in-character, but they went overboard. Personally, I would have limited it to when she talks about devils (especially Zariel), and Gortash. You know, to make it more impactful and highlight how much they hurt her. But yeah, karlach is super wholesome, and I chose the wildheart Barbarian subclass to highlight her soft side by giving her stuff like "speak with animals". |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1308 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2023 : 20:55:56
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| For someone who has spent a while fighting in the most brutal conflict in all of existence, their behavior - in general - strains believability. Still, featuring characters that went through extremes and yet effectively function in a contradictory fashion (to milk that shock/subversion factor) almost seems to be a developer trademark. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2023 : 22:28:36
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Brutality can leave you spent and change you, but consider this:
a)Karlach has had loving parents. 0-7 years is the time of your life when your core bheaviors and control theories are shaped. This equips you with the ability to face traumatic situations.
b)Trauma/PTSD only occurs if you're in a situation of powerlessness against a threat to you or to people close to you (example: being physically or emotionally abused by parents or figures of authority, soliders in trenches subject to bombardment, etc...). Karlach was a prisoner, but she wasn't just a slave subject to torture without the ability to do anything. She was a fighter, able to get into the thick of it and to handle virtually everything thrown at her (though I dunno why she's just lv 3 when you meet her. maybe the tadpole eats your normal powers, like it happened to Wyll and Gale). Being able to do that is possibily the best shield against trauma (not that you aren't traumatized, but you're less likely to shut down)
c)Characters that are able to see the beauty of things after having stared in the metaphorical abyss, to even see beauty where others normally don't, is a totally valid concept, and a beautiful one. It's the reason why I love Eilistraee so much (and honestly, Karlach would make a good Eilistraean). The abyss stares back into you, only if you don't stare into it long enough, and if you don't allow yourself to actually take in what you're seeing. Aka, only if you become numb. So no, it isn't just for shock, it's deliberate.
d)Karalch has no problem killing things when it comes to it. She's not really a pacifist. And she show the most empaty towards people whi are going through the same experience as her (aka prisoners, slaves, etc... One more reason why she would make a good Eilistraean, btw). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 13 Oct 2023 22:32:20 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1308 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2023 : 10:57:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Any other character I'm not aware of?
Ok, I met Viconia, and I agree they did her dirty. I don't know why, considering Jaheira and Minsc are true to themselves, and recruiting them is quite satisfying.
Viconia was just a fight where you butcher the *entire temple* (I was glad to have kept the Illithid orbs, because there were a crapton of enemies, so grouping them made things much faster and less of a slog). When you finally interrogate her, she's the most brainwashed lunatic I've ever seen. The only think I could think was why? Why is she so stupid?
You could have replaced her with any other generic "stupid evil" character, and it would've been the same. I'm still enjoying the game, but shame. I really hope they rework this whole quest in the upcoming patches. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 15 Oct 2023 11:01:07 |
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Athreeren
Learned Scribe
140 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2023 : 18:41:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Ok, I met Viconia, and I agree they did her dirty. I don't know why, considering Jaheira and Minsc are true to themselves, and recruiting them is quite satisfying.
Viconia was just a fight where you butcher the *entire temple* (I was glad to have kept the Illithid orbs, because there were a crapton of enemies, so grouping them made things much faster and less of a slog). When you finally interrogate her, she's the most brainwashed lunatic I've ever seen. The only think I could think was why? Why is she so stupid?
You could have replaced her with any other generic "stupid evil" character, and it would've been the same. I'm still enjoying the game, but shame. I really hope they rework this whole quest in the upcoming patches.
Can you say more about what you dislike about the encounter with Viconia? If you didn't do anything to redeem her in the second game, it makes sense that she would become the head of the Sharrans (a better fate than in the romance ending, where her death was really stupid). In fact, Throne of Bhaal's epilogue says she founded a cult in Waterdeep, which was slaughtered after one of her followers betrayed her; BG3 mentions the event and retcons it so that instead of a mistake, this becomes her own plan as she follows the will of her goddess. (BG3 also makes a good point that following Shar is a terrible idea always, but they were not going to change that aspect of Viconia's backstory; making her an apostate would really have been doing her dirty)
This is the rest of the epilogue: "Viconia was still formidable, and went on to prevent an attempt by the Knights of the Shield to take over Calimport, and even worked with Drizzt Do'Urden to save the elven city of Suldanessalar from a Zhentarim plot. For this last act, the elves accepted her, and Queen Ellesime bestowed the highest honors of the Seldarine, an accolade never before given to one of her dark kind. Viconia reportedly bowed once without emotion, and then left. Her fate remains unknown."
Sure this all sounds heroic, but an alternative interpretation is that she was fighting rival organisations with little regards to the lives this would save. And this is still what she is doing in this game: she explains that sending Shadowheart after the Astral Prism was not actually an order from Shar, but just Viconia, who through her own network of spies, discovered that the cult of the Absolute existed, that it was growing, notably from desperate people who should have joined the Sharrans, and that they were after the artefact. Since the proximity of the artefact is the whole reason the heroes did not become illithids right away, this means that Viconia, through her own actions, started the whole plot of the game. I find that this is a really nice homage to her character (also, you can choose to spare her in that fight).
So what is the issue with this representation?
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2023 : 19:58:10
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My problem is only in part with the fact that the mother superior is Viconia, and it's more with how the whole story was handled. As far as Viconia herself is concerned, regardless of whether she remained evil in BG2, the encounter is just a fight where you butcher a whole temple (like, literally--no possibility for intrigue, internal schisms to exploit, etc... the quest just has you going there and almost immediately slaughter everyone), and the only sensible option is to kill her after she spouts absolute lunacy to Shadowheart. That said, since Viconia is a character whose development you can influence in BG2, personally I would have personally avoided to include her at all, as to not invalidate anyone's choices in BG2--or at least, I would have avoided including her in such a polarizing position (the antagonist of a companion story). After all, given how little we got to interact with her, what was the point of using Viconia, rather than making a new Sharran character?
This leads to the other problems I have with the whole mother superior angle, regardless of her identity. It was handled rather badly, because no effort was made to introduce this mother superior figure (aside from Shadowheart talking about her) or her influence in the early phases of the story, before you meet her. You have no emotional investment in this character (and I mean either negative or positive emotional investment), you (as a player) have no reason to hate or fear or respect her, because she's just a walking question mark who hurt Shadowheart up until you meet and fight her. Just compare this with the buildup and payiff for Raphael's character... this felt very rushed and empty.
I would have expected a similar buildup for a character like Viconia, if they really wanted to use her as an antagonist--or at least something similar to what we got for Jaheira.
So my point is that they did her dirty due to a case of bad quest design. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 15 Oct 2023 20:15:05 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1308 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2023 : 02:39:02
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There truly is no hill lacking defenders...dung heaps included.
Anyhow, in addition to the fact that the overall Elf design is milquetoast broader market appeal with a strong hint of laziness, Viconia has the appearance of a shriveled hag (despite the fact that she is the longest-lived race of the BG2 NPCs*); either the developer didn't know (in which case they couldn't be bothered with basic research) or they didn't care (probably choosing what they thought was dramatically appropriate, canon be damned).
* Viconia debuted in BG, but Coran and Xan - being normal Elves - possess greater lifespans than the Drow; in BG2, her longevity is the highest of the hirable NPCs. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2023 : 05:45:59
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| I managed to "Turn" Viconia once in my BG2 playthrus. It wasn't easy, and I can see how she could easily backslide. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2023 : 05:49:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
of a shriveled hag
No, she doesn't. She looks older than she should an elf, yes, but not even close to a shriveled hag. I mean, if I met a woman who looked like her IRL (and there are many), I wouldn't even dream of compare her to a shriveled hag. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1308 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2023 : 07:12:11
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That miasma...
A champion draws near.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
of a shriveled hag
No, she doesn't.
For one of her kind, absolutely; Elven physique doesn't betray any sign of aging until they are ancient by their standards. Also, that descriptor pulls double duty as "witch" and she was definitely referred to as such way back when (hell, she was almost burned at the stake). I imagine the brilliant folks at L headquarters probably had an exchange not too dissimilar from the following ->
Man 1: "How do immediately show that she has grown older since her adventures from the last game?"
Woman: "We'll add wrinkles and sag."
Man 2: "Hold on: isn't she an ELF? Well, I mean, drow, if you want to get technical, but...they're not the same as humans."
Woman: "Details, details. Look, we're going to be selling this thing to people who aren't geeks. Really, who cares?"
Man 1: "I'm sold." |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Athreeren
Learned Scribe
140 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2023 : 07:27:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
There truly is no hill lacking defenders...dung heaps included.
Anyhow, in addition to the fact that the overall Elf design is milquetoast broader market appeal with a strong hint of laziness, Viconia has the appearance of a shriveled hag (despite the fact that she is the longest-lived race of the BG2 NPCs*); either the developer didn't know (in which case they couldn't be bothered with basic research) or they didn't care (probably choosing what they thought was dramatically appropriate, canon be damned).
* Viconia debuted in BG, but Coran and Xan - being normal Elves - possess greater lifespans than the Drow; in BG2, her longevity is the highest of the hirable NPCs.
In Baldur's Gate 2, Viconia talks about her past in Menzoberranzan. From some aspects of her life (her rank in the clergy, her killing of her four husbands and most of her fourteen sisters, etc.), it seems she lived quite a while there, maybe two centuries. Then she lost Lolth’s favour for her house after failing to sacrifice a baby to the goddess, so her mother condemned her to be sacrificed herself. Her brother killed their mother and helped her escape.
In Homeland though, House DeVir is said to have lost Lolth’s favour when Matron Ginafae (probably one of Viconia’s surviving sisters) used her Lloth-given powers to hinder the drow that were ambushing a gnomish patrol in the caverns outside Menzoberranzan, all because she desired the death of a single member of that attacking drow party. This indicates that by then, house DeVir had regained Lolth’s favour and the matron mother was feeling confident enough that she could pull off such a scheme. So Viconia must have fled Menzoberranzan long before 1297 DR. I guess we can justify her being level 2 by Lolth stripping her of her powers, although how she survived 71 years of being on the run as a level 2 character is quite puzzling…
In any case, she must be between 4 and 5 centuries old by 1492 DR, which is not particularly young for an elf. And elves do age: Elminster in Myth Drannor is full of elves showing various signs of aging. Even for drow, Yvonnel Baenre appeared impossibly old, and Malice Do’Urden also looked quite old by the end of her life. Sure, this was because of their use of the Zin-carla ritual, but the point is that drow can age, and we don’t know what dark magic Viconia has used in the service of Shar over the past century. I really do not find her appearance in BG3 shocking.
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1308 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2023 : 08:34:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Athreeren
I really do not find her appearance in BG3 shocking.
That's hardly surprising, but, ah...nah: both of those characters are much older (in-story and by the fact that they're in their late teens or early twenties level-wise). Given the developer's other "creative" choices, I find it puzzling that you'll reach this far to make sense of the path of least resistance. However, rest assured that Reed Richards is still quite jealous. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2023 : 03:10:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
That miasma...
A champion draws near.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
of a shriveled hag
No, she doesn't.
For one of her kind, absolutely; Elven physique doesn't betray any sign of aging until they are ancient by their standards. Also, that descriptor pulls double duty as "witch" and she was definitely referred to as such way back when (hell, she was almost burned at the stake). I imagine the brilliant folks at L headquarters probably had an exchange not too dissimilar from the following ->
Man 1: "How do immediately show that she has grown older since her adventures from the last game?"
Woman: "We'll add wrinkles and sag."
Man 2: "Hold on: isn't she an ELF? Well, I mean, drow, if you want to get technical, but...they're not the same as humans."
Woman: "Details, details. Look, we're going to be selling this thing to people who aren't geeks. Really, who cares?"
Man 1: "I'm sold."
As I said, I agree that she looks older than she shoul as an elf, but you can't call that "shriveled hag".
Moreover I don't think was done to appeal to "non-geeks", otherwise they wouldn't have even made a turn-based RPG based on a tabletop game. Also, rest assured that non-geeks don't give a single f**k about these issues (if anything, they too prefer attractive characters).
I think Larian was fed the 5e source material by WotC, which states that elves physically mature as quickly as humans.
I've already stated this, but I'll state it again: Larian had to work with the 5e material. This isn't 2e D&D, nor it is the 1300s FR. This is 5e D&D and 1490s FR. Two entirely different beasts, and the devs can't be blamed for that.
OTOH, let's focus the criticism on stuff that needs it (example: more companion/NPC responsiveness, rewrite bad quests--like the Shadowheart bs mother superior thingy--polish the 374236473 plot threads in act 3, and--of course--fix the bugs that taint an otherwise high quality game). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 18 Oct 2023 04:45:19 |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2023 : 18:39:11
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| I also expected more from Shadowheart's storyline, how is it connected to Netherese shadow magic? and agree about the appearance of some characters, Minthara looks like a guy and Mystra doesn't look good, the most powerful goddess, and Jergal, it would be cool at the end if he appearead as a spellweaver. |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
187 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2023 : 22:14:29
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| Mystra used to be a mortal and I always took it that she maintained some vestige of her mortal self: Midnight was attractive but not supernaturally stunning, and I think they nailed that. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1279 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2023 : 07:57:55
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| I played an Invoker specialist wizard for my main, so I didn't have Gale in my party except to do his story beats. I am not sure what happens with him therefore but it appears he bangs Mystra at some point (or has banged her). Sadly, this is one aspect of Greenwood's FR they actually nailed (pun unintended). |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2023 : 17:25:22
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| There's a much better picture of Midnight in Hall of Heroes, 30+ years old book, but it's in the eye of the beholder. Dame Aylin I think they did right. |
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Explore the entire city of Baldur's Gate in BG3
