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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2470 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Oct 2023 : 07:50:57
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| Mystra just looked like a Karen. Very fitting, giving her character in the game. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2023 : 17:52:53
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I've not reached the end yet, but as far as I've seen, I can't blame her. Gale's so arrogant that he borders idiocy. On top of that, he acts like Mystra has wronged him, when in truth he's actively threatening to usurp (and likely shatter) the Weave *once again* (which likely means hurting Mystra herself in several ways, btw), and she's still holding back from erasing him. Like, Mystra has *just* come out of exactly that, the Weave is still being repaired (and shared with other deities too), the Spellplague has *just* ended, and this dude comes out of nowhere to threaten magic (and possibly Mystra's own life) just like that? Had I been in Mystra's place, I would have done way worse than just dumping him, since this dude's apparently unable to understand. This part of Gale's story needs more subtlety IMO, because the whole "he's blinded by hubris!" thing is way too much in your face.
Also, I understand that Mystra asking Gale to go full kamikaze for ehr forgiveness might sound like the ultimate Karen, but once you understand the situation, the alternative would be asking Gale to take the crown from the elder brain, and give it to her so that she can get his Karsite Weave to calm down. Basically, that's the same as keeping an extremely dangerous parasite (that Gale unleashed) around, as well as the means of controlling it. It's much preferable to destroy them, since it's very evident that Mystra's not invulnerable and has many enemies, all of whom would eagerly attempt to take these items from her. Mystra's mistake here was a)not talking to Gale in person (I mean, she's asking him to commit suicide...), and b)to not divulge all the info. Then again, perhaps it wasn't wvwn a mustake, because I can totally understand not trusting what Gale would do with this info (and the crown).
But Idk, we get to see Gale's perspective a lot, but let's examine Mystra's: imagine if someone close to you suddenly did something that threatened not only your life, but also all that you care about, out of "well intentioned ambition" (aka blind arrogance, since he ignored all of Mystra's warnings). Think if that person who claimed to want to be "even closer" to you did something like that after your life had been threatened so many times and while you were still recovering from the last attempted murder (and that person close to you knew it). I'm pretty sure no one would agree that choosing to disregard this person forever and wanting them to fix their mistake--even at the cost of the ultimate sacrifice, counts as being a Karen.
What Gale did was *awful*, considering he's implied to know Mystra and her story very well. Had Mystra been a real person, that would have been the same as your SO deciding to take a huge dump all over your PTSD by putting you in the same danger that originated your trauma. It was not deliberate cruelty of course, but it was motivated by hurbirs, aka selfishness, disregard for others, and an ego as large as the Sun. Gale's so massively in the wrong, that whatever mistake Mystra made in the interaction disappears. Honestly, I dislike how the game has portrayed the victim as the abuser--I understood it in act 2 (since we only saw Gale's perspective), but I would have liked to see more of Mystra's side in act 3. Yeah, some people might say that she can't be a victim becaus she's a goddess so she has the power and all, but they went the "deity=powerful person" route. Mystra's ultimately a person in the game, and despite all her power, Gale has something that threatens her life. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 Oct 2023 18:19:58 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2470 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2023 : 06:02:52
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Mystra groomed him, that is a wrong on my list. So, yes, she wronged him, even if just by giving him false hopes and very high expectations. Then, she just discarded him, and expected him to sacrifice his life for her, even after dumping him and remove nearly all of his powers. Another wrong on my list. She withheld information, so all her warnings were "don't do that or something bad will happen". What she did expect? When you say that, you're only encouraging people to do the bad thing. And, yes, she should have go to Gale to ask him to sacrifice himself in person (if she was so fearful of Gale, having Elmo alongside for safety or something).
quote:
asking Gale to take the crown from the elder brain, and give it to her so that she can get his Karsite Weave to calm down. Basically, that's the same as keeping an extremely dangerous parasite (that Gale unleashed) around, as well as the means of controlling it.
Basically asking Gale to end the threat by ending the game the way all other origins do it, lol. I mean, she may not trust Gale, but what about Tav/Dark Urge and the others? She was just thinking first about herself, as always.
Gale may be an idiot and may have done awful things, but that doesn't make Mystra innocent either. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 23 Oct 2023 06:13:16 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2023 : 14:41:49
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No, just no. You're not only inventing stuff that is nowhere in the game, but you're also diminishing a grave issu (as your argument entirely fails to take into account the perspective of someone who has to face a threat *to her life* in a relationship, even if caused by lack of concern about nconsequences rather than malice, and who has had to face those very threats in the past, therefore setting precedents for trauma).
So, nowhere in the game it says or it is shown that Mystra groomed Gale. If anything, it looks like Gale was all too eager to latch onto her. Also, nowhere it's said that Mystra withheld info from Gale *before* he did the foolish thing of grabbing the Karsite Weave (aka before he lost Mystra's trust). Everything points to Gale being blinded by his own hubris and greed (he admits this to you--he says that he wanted more than what Mystra felt comfortable giving him, so he wanted to persuade her to give it to him anyway--on a side note, I know it refers to magic, but the game is very weird on this, since it also states that mmagic is Mystra's very being, which makes the whole affair sound very icky and uncomfortable to me). Gale grabbed that Karsite Weave "to return Mystra a part of herself", in the hope of getting more out of her. What he did was ultimately motivated by selfish reasons, and in the dfumbest ways possible: he ignored all the kniowledge he had on Netheril, he ignored all that Mystra said to him (and since she taught him magic, that's a lot of info), because he wanted more and deemed himself above those who came before him and failed. So he went and grabbed the orb, endangering the whoe world and Mystra too, just as said world and Mystra were recovering from the latest tragedy.
Like, you can't be possibly be justifying a dude who, guided by sheer arrogance ("let's ignore Mystra's--my S.O.'s--words and boundaries! I'm better than that!") and lack of foresight, ended up unleashing a parasite that now threatens countless lives. Or a dude who is now doubling down on that by attempting yet another Spellplague, and now actively threatening Mystra's life. He could have the purest motivations in the world (and he doesn't, he's just chasing his ambitions), and he'd still be a threat to erase.
Mystra is by no means "discarding" him. It's a ntural reaction to cut off people who betray your trust AND endanger your friggin' life (willingly or unwillingly). Especially if you've already suffered that kind of experience. It's called self-preservation, and it's very legitimate. So legitimate that it's possibly the reason why we aren't dead. At this point, I 'm curoious what you'd do if your S.O. endangered your life and all you held dear, and their reason was that they "wanted more than you were comfortable giving them", so they decided to ignore all your warnings and do the thing that would endanger your life and all you held dear. I personally would try to make sure this person never gets to threaten me again (even by mistake), because a)I shouldn't live feeling threatened by their mistakes b)it's very obvious that they don't "love me". If your partner becomes a threat to you--be it due to incompetence&arrogance (Gale's case) or cruelt--that'll possibly be the deepest betrayal you'll ever esperience. Yes, even if the reason why your partner becomes a threat is just incompetence. That's because if you ever end up in such a circumstance, then it means that this person that claims to love you, is actually doing something so dire to potentially threaten your life, without thinking about the conseqwuences. And if you don't think about the consequences, you either don't care about those who suffer them, or you're a superficial, immature individual that can't be trusted with responsbility or power. Either way, you don't want them in your (and hopefully anyone else's) life.
Look, I get you not liking Mystra, but would you tell a real person who's had her life (or something of vital importance to her) put in danger by her partner's arrogance, that she shouldn't "discard him". especially a person who has suffered that kind of experience before? If not, why wouldn't that hold true for the story of Mystrae and Gale too?
On a final note, Mystra hasn't asked my character anything yet. It's also irrelevant how other origins end the game, because the other oriugins a)didn't nearly cause a disaster by acting out of sheer hubris and greed before the game started, thus making themselves nearly impossible to trust with any kind of power b)aren't after Karsus' crown in some idiotic attempt to kill Mystra and endanger the world out of hubris, *once again*, intentionally so this time around. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 Oct 2023 14:53:15 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2470 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2023 : 21:29:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
So, nowhere in the game it says or it is shown that Mystra groomed
She took him under her wing when he was a child, and he later became her lover (I assume, when he was an adult, but the game doesn't say when). That's the very definition of grooming.
And don't be fooled by Gale's beard, he is young. Mystra approached him when he was a child, meaning that this should have happened between 1479 DR (when Mystra revived) and 1486 DR (when Mystra finished repairing the Weave and officially returned to the pantheon). The game takes place in 1492-1494 DR (we don't know the exact date, but it is after the events of Descent into Avernus). So, assuming Mystra first reached him when he was 10 years old, Gale is at much 25 years old.
That is grooming, plain and simple.
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Also, nowhere it's said that Mystra withheld info from Gale *before* he did the foolish thing of grabbing the Karsite Weave (aka before he lost Mystra's trust).
It's actually said in the game. Mystra just tells him the truth only after he decides to not go the suicidal route. Before that, Gale didn't even knew why Mystra has casted him down.
https://youtu.be/v1JpvgozDsI?si=i8BmsVfJQhshn2P5
Obvious spoilers, watch at your own discretion.
The point, Mystra never told him why what he was doing was wrong, not even after he did the did and she punished. Gale felt wronged because he even didn't knew why she punished him. In his point of view, she used him and discarded him at leisure. And she later has the "gall" (in Gale's POV) of asking to sacrifice his life for her. He only understood what he did wrong after Mystra had the decency to tell him the truth, way late in the game.
Also, Gale didn't even knew that what he was giving to Mystra was the last remnant of the Karsite Weave. He was under the assumption that he was returning Mystra some lost piece of her power. That he was bitter against her for most of the game is the only logical conclusion to that chain of events.
So, yes, Gale is an idiot, selfish, arrogant mage who wanted even more of what he already had, and who did really stupid things in the name of ambition, but Mystra just acted like a Karen, never telling him what he did wrong or why she was punishing him. Trauma is not excuse to treat other people like expendable things.
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on a side note, I know it refers to magic, but the game is very weird on this, since it also states that mmagic is Mystra's very being, which makes the whole affair sound very icky and uncomfortable to me
The game will get even more weird when implies sorcerers do not use the Weave, lol. Or if you play with the Dark Urge origin.
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Like, you can't be possibly be justifying a dude who, guided by sheer arrogance ("let's ignore Mystra's--my S.O.'s--words and boundaries! I'm better than that!") and lack of foresight, ended up unleashing a parasite that now threatens countless lives.
Well,I can justify his ignorance on the matter. As stated before, he genuinely didn't knew he had the most dangerous parasite in his hands. He did a really stupid and wrong thing, but he didn't do it out of malice and with the full knowledge of the consequences, he did it out of ignorance and stupidity.
And, if we go that way, I cannot also justify a goddess that only thinks about herself and her survival, and as soon as Gale self-destructs and destroys the Netherbrain, left the Sword Coast to fend for itself against an invasion of mind flayers who where born from the tadpoles formerly controlled by said elder brain (as stated by the narrator if you get that ending playing with Gale as your main character. Yeah, the narrator doesn't say Mystra left the Sword Coast on its own, but it also doesn't say that Mystra did anything to help, either).
Again, Gale did stupid things with awful consequences, but Mystra is not innocent either. And trauma is not excuse to leave the people of the Sword Coast to die horrible deaths in the hands of self-conscious Illithids...
https://youtu.be/Z1VQgQyP-sE?si=5mAdlLbiAcHtjMYP
All Gale endings. Again, spoilers. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 23 Oct 2023 21:37:14 |
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2023 : 23:58:03
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| We are questioning the morals and desires of GODS. Perhaps we should be wary of that practice. Gods will interact with you only if THEY want to. And be carefull of what Gods want if they DO interact with you. A Cautionary Tale. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1308 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2023 : 01:02:59
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It is incredibly amusing seeing folks try to twist themselves into pretzels in order to defend/rationalize a game that is Baldur's Gate in name only. I take comfort in knowing that, among all the possible Earths in existence (where humanity never evolved, where humanity was scrubbed from the face of the planet by self-inflicted nuclear fire, where fully sapient dolphins taught humanity the secrets of the oceans, where Elvis enjoyed two productive terms as President, et cetera), there is one where BioWare/Black Isle Studios/Interplay Entertainment delivered a worthy sequel to their seminal contributions.
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Originally posted by Marc
Minthara looks like a guy
Put up two fingers (to block the ears) and she appears to be a human that got dunked into teal-ish paint. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2470 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2023 : 02:51:26
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| Like all drows, actually. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1279 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2023 : 12:17:03
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| I think the Gygax purest in me wants drow to be almost universally ebony skinnned with white hair and red eyes as described in the original Fiend Folio. But reality is that making an evil race black skinned in a mainstream product is unlikely to pass modern scrutiny, so we have purple people in graphic novels and video games and inevitbale big screen depictions. It still looks pretty good to me; although all the elves look like pointy eared humans in this game. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2023 : 12:43:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
[
She took him under her wing when he was a child
I don't recall this being stated anywhere. The version I remember is that Mystra took Gale under her wing after he showed insane skills with spells. It isn't specified at which point of his life this happened. Also, yes, Gale certainly isn't old, but his age is unspecified as far as I know.
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It's actually said in the game. Mystra just tells him the truth only after he decides to not go the suicidal route. Before that, Gale didn't even knew why Mystra has casted him down.
What I said is that Mystra couldn't have been withholding info before Gale took the Karsite Weave,l because she didn't know that he would have done that. The situation that led to Gale taking that Weave was: Gale wanted more than Mystra's comfortable giving, Mystra didn't budge, so he throught to mess with Karsus' stuff (and is very common knowledge among casters that you don't mess with Karsus' stuff) to impress her so that she could grant him the stuff that she wouldn't grant him before. He wanted to push her boundaries (by his own admission), and he acted out of sheer hubris and ambition (by his own admission), not love. He knew there were serious risks involved with that, he knew that Mystra wasn't even done healing the Weave from the umpteenth attempt to kill her yet, but he took the risks regardless, because he wanted to grab for more.
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The point, Mystra never told him why what he was doing was wrong, not even after he did the did and she punished. Gale felt wronged because he even didn't knew why she punished him. In his point of view, she used him and discarded him at leisure. And she later has the "gall" (in Gale's POV) of asking to sacrifice his life for her. He only understood what he did wrong after Mystra had the decency to tell him the truth, way late in the game.
Also, Gale didn't even knew that what he was giving to Mystra was the last remnant of the Karsite Weave. He was under the assumption that he was returning Mystra some lost piece of her power. That he was bitter against her for most of the game is the only logical conclusion to that chain of events.
Gale didn't know that he had the Karsite Weave, but he 100% knew that he had unlesahed a powerful, Weave-devouring parasite that could erase a whole metropolis from the face of the Realms if left unchecked for mere days. He also knew that it was somehow connected to the Absolute. He tells you both these things when he reveals his orb. Maybe he didn't know that his hubris had unleashed a threat to Mystra's own life, but he surely knew that his hubris had unleashed something capable of hurting the Weave (which the game repeatedly equates to Mystra's own essence), while the Weave hadn't even finished recovering yet.
Either way, he had the tools to know that what he did was a massive betrayal of Mystra's trust, because he chose to downplay the possiuble consequences of messing with Karsus' stuff, potentially exposing Mystra to more of what had repeatedly been a wrecking ball in her life.
Now, if we're discussing his PoV, he's well written up until he gets the idea to go full Karsus (that's not out of character, but too dumb IMHO. They could have had him try different stuff, rather than the worst thing possible). Of course he feels wronged, because of course he thought that he had the best possible intentions. Good character thinking--characters always think themselves as the "good guys" so to speak, until they reach the "known zone", and realize the flaws in their worldview. Gale possibly has the "gifted kid" arc, in which he ends up realizing that striving for greatenss to impress someone is self-destructive (and other-destructive in his case, since magic is dangerous) and doesn't provide the love and belonging that "being one of the greats" was supposed to provide.
So, don't get me wrong: Gale's flawed PoV and attitude towards this past with Mystra are a necessity: without them, we can't get an arc and we can't get Gale's story. It is compelling precisely because of that. I only dislike that the game actively tries to paint Gale as the victim and Mystra as the abuser, and the direction that Gale's throught process takes after learning about the Karsite Weave (since he basically just wants to replace Mystra at that point).
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So, yes, Gale is an idiot, selfish, arrogant mage who wanted even more of what he already had, and who did really stupid things in the name of ambition, but Mystra just acted like a Karen, never telling him what he did wrong or why she was punishing him. Trauma is not excuse to treat other people like expendable things.
The point relevant to Mystra's reaction isn't that Gale is an idiot and selfish (we all can be), but that when he cose to grab the orb, his hubris and ambition weighed more than any concern concern about Mystra and the Weave, as well as repsect for Mystra's boundaries (which is why it makes sense for Mystra to see it as a betrayal). Because of that, he ended up becoming a danger, regardless of his intentions. At this point, it becomes a matter of practicality, not morality.
And don't get me wrong, Mystra's actions were certainly flawed, but in the way that the actions of someone who acts out of fear and betrayal are. She very obviously feared that Gale would have tried to repeat what Karsus did, if he had known about the Karsite Weave in him, which is why she withholds info after the misdeed. And given Gale's motivations in ignoring common sense and warnings about Netheril (aka hubris and ambition), and given his reaction to acquiring that knowledge in act III, you can't exactly blame Mystra. But I wouldn't blame Mystra regardless, because she surely is traumatized by people trying to kill her and take the Weave, so her reaction was probably very raw and emotional due to that.
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The game will get even more weird when implies sorcerers do not use the Weave, lol. Or if you play with the Dark Urge origin.
I meant a different kind of weird, not lore-weird. As for Dark urge, well, if you pick that you know what you're getting yourself into.
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And, if we go that way, I cannot also justify a goddess that only thinks about herself and her survival, and as soon as Gale self-destructs and destroys the Netherbrain, left the Sword Coast to fend for itself against an invasion of mind flayers who where born from the tadpoles formerly controlled by said elder brain (as stated by the narrator if you get that ending playing with Gale as your main character. Yeah, the narrator doesn't say Mystra left the Sword Coast on its own, but it also doesn't say that Mystra did anything to help, either).
Again, Gale did stupid things with awful consequences, but Mystra is not innocent either. And trauma is not excuse to leave the people of the Sword Coast to die horrible deaths in the hands of self-conscious Illithids...
You know that gods can't intervene, because Ao and whatever other excuse. That excuse is also provided by the game itself when you tell Elminster that a little help on Mystra's side wouldn't hurt.
Anyway, my point isn't that Mystra is perfect or even good, just that her reaction towards Gale wasn't Karen-like, and very justified/understandable, as it's motivated by fear and betrayal. It comes from hurt.
Thank you for the links, I haven't finished the game yet, but I'll check Gale's ending as soon as I'm done, as I'm interested in the conclusion to his arc. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 24 Oct 2023 12:55:36 |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2023 : 18:51:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I think the Gygax purest in me wants drow to be almost universally ebony skinnned with white hair and red eyes as described in the original Fiend Folio. But reality is that making an evil race black skinned in a mainstream product is unlikely to pass modern scrutiny, so we have purple people in graphic novels and video games and inevitbale big screen depictions. It still looks pretty good to me; although all the elves look like pointy eared humans in this game.
I prefer to think of theme as near ebon skinned, but with variations much like most mammals, except varying between shades of gray, brown, blue, or purple. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2023 : 21:06:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
It is incredibly amusing seeing folks try to twist themselves into pretzels in order to defend/rationalize
I know it's hard to fathom such an exotic possibility, but hear me out for a moment: what if discussions aren't necessarily about attacking and defending, but about exchanging information? In this case, exchanging experiences with the game.
Also, this game *is* Baldur's Gate, but 5e/1490s. You prefer the 1360/70s Baldur's Gate--and trust me, so do I--but I repeat: this is indeed Baldur's Gate. We're extremely unlikely to get a game set in the past, because WotC is interested in garnering interest in the present of their IP, in the "fancy new stuff", and because most people who play videogames or D&D nowadays don't give a single flying about Baldur's Gate in the past or the Realms in the past. Sad, but true, and yet I'm still glad we got a good game out of it, even if it isn't the 1360s/1370s Baldur's Gate. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 24 Oct 2023 21:10:15 |
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2023 : 23:02:52
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| While I was against the going to only one die (the 20-sided die), I have to admit that it's made things simpler. My only complaint is that some events shouldn't have a 5% chance of happening. Divine Intervention, for example, should have a much smaller chance of happening. But the change to 20-sided did keep the the new generation involved. Us seniors should now use the OLD dice system as an invitation to another aspect of D&D. |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
187 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2023 : 22:30:15
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quote:
I know it's hard to fathom such an exotic possibility, but hear me out for a moment: what if discussions aren't necessarily about attacking and defending, but about exchanging information? In this case, exchanging experiences with the game.
Also, this game *is* Baldur's Gate, but 5e/1490s. You prefer the 1360/70s Baldur's Gate--and trust me, so do I--but I repeat: this is indeed Baldur's Gate. We're extremely unlikely to get a game set in the past, because WotC is interested in garnering interest in the present of their IP, in the "fancy new stuff", and because most people who play videogames or D&D nowadays don't give a single flying about Baldur's Gate in the past or the Realms in the past. Sad, but true, and yet I'm still glad we got a good game out of it, even if it isn't the 1360s/1370s Baldur's Gate.
Yup. I think this is the last "hold the line!" battle being fought for the pre-Spellplague Realms and the hope that one day they'll retcon everything post ~1380 DR and return to the "classic setting." Unfortunately, that is never going to happen. The Second Sundering, which was masterminded by Ed Greenwood and Bob Salvatore to fix the Spellplague, get rid of most of the lame elements of it and restore the OG setting and many of the missing countries and characters, is as good a retcon as we're ever going to get. Time has still moved on, dragonborn are still around, tieflings are more commonplace and, yes, they took advantage of the timeskip to drop the classic "medieval fantasy" feel of the early Realms which lots of people (myself included) enjoyed. They're doing a more magitek/pre-steampunk thing, but that's not out of keeping with Ed's conception (he was never keen on the Realms being the Middle Ages with fireballs, and often noted the Renaissance elements of the setting people overlooked, or even later elements like Waterdeep having printing presses and Mulhorand having steampunk tech they'd never fully developed properly).
More have people have played, run and enjoyed the Realms since 2014 than they ever did in all the years before it combined, and for those people the Spellplague is a minor bit of background lore they don't really care about, or if they do, it's an event that's over and no longer relevant (like the Fall of Netheril is in 1E and 2E material, before the Arcane Age boxed set), so the small number of people calling for the Realms to be rolled back to the way it was in 1987 (or 1993, or 2001) is just weird to them, and they're the people paying the bills for the setting now.
Is Baldur's Gate 3 overrated? Sure. In particular the entire last third of the game is a bit of a mess (technically and structurally) and they've been slow to fix it. But overall the story is fairly solid, the combat is okay, the Realmslore call-outs are mostly decent (they did Viconia a bit dirty though) and it's a reasonable follow-up to the first two games (which I both bought on day of release in 1998 and 2000 respectively). It's particularly impressive it exists at all: a BioWare-made Baldur's Gate III would probably look like the bloated and unsatisfying Dragon Age: Inquisition, and an Obsidian-made one would be brilliant but a retro-isometric RPG that nobody plays (like Pillars of Eternity II).
An old-skool, isometric, party-based RPG with insane production values, a decent story, very good characters, an exacting reproduction of the tabletop game and mostly solid attention to the lore (a few niggles aside)? We're very lucky this thing exists, and even luckier it's brought renewed and new fans to the Forgotten Realms. |
Edited by - Werthead on 25 Oct 2023 22:35:21 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2023 : 04:28:42
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Personally, I don't think the game is overrated (at least not by far), because most people aren't claiming the story is amazing or whatever. Most are praising the game due to how much freedom in approaching situations it provides, how much care for details went into it, and how much of an impact you can have on stuff. And in a videogame, that's arguably worth more than the best stories, because it provides interaction, exploring different possibilities, etc... which is at the core of what games are. It's the same reason why people feel so involved in their D&D campaign even when the story is something already seen: it doesn't really matter, because it's different in that it's *their* story. If I want the best stories, I choose a well written book and read it (and this is why I no longer can enjoy D&D/FR stories--WotC couldn't write if their life depended on it--only as a VG setting), or choose a plot/character-focused movie and watch it.
It's inevitable that a videogame has to settle for a simpler story, because complex stories require you to control tons of factors (and to control when those factors come in play, when info is acquired, etc...). However, if you want to give player true agency, you have to relinquish a lot of this control. While a DM in TTRPG can adapt to what players come up with and determine how the network of characters and events that they set up for their complex story react, a videogame can only fo so much (and I'm surprised by what BG3 already does in this sense). Maybe in the future AIs will be able to emulate the role of a DM in a videogame, allowing videogames to have very complex stories AND player agency, but we aren't quite there yet.
TL; DR: I've seen a lot of people being happy with the game, because it was designed with the player's fun in mind, and from the perspective of a player, not for its story. It needs a rewrite of some quests, and bug fixing in act III (and, from what I hear, better support for evil playthroughs), but it's overall a very good game, and one of the best to come out in a long, LONG time (*too* long). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 26 Oct 2023 07:32:32 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1279 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2023 : 16:37:00
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Yeah, I so hope Larian makes more D&D Forgotten Realms games. I'd like a game that was akin to Act 1 - just grounded with out portal hopping through the hells being chased by red dragons in a space ship to start. Humble beginnings where the big threat is some orc/goblin/drow horde who want to kill you and your home. This could easily be a 100 hour game and progression could get you to level 8 or so; but the focus on choice, characters, and changing the world environment for the better or worse based on your actions.
Let it be set in Immersea, or for nastalgia sake - Phlan :P
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2023 : 18:11:53
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| I want a D&D RPG set in Waterdeep. Baldurs Gate and Neverwinter have had their turn.(Pssst... I don't count the Gold Box Games,,, the graphics were too primitive.) |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
187 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2023 : 20:08:11
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quote:
Personally, I don't think the game is overrated (at least not by far), because most people aren't claiming the story is amazing or whatever. Most are praising the game due to how much freedom in approaching situations it provides, how much care for details went into it, and how much of an impact you can have on stuff. And in a videogame, that's arguably worth more than the best stories, because it provides interaction, exploring different possibilities, etc... which is at the core of what games are. It's the same reason why people feel so involved in their D&D campaign even when the story is something already seen: it doesn't really matter, because it's different in that it's *their* story. If I want the best stories, I choose a well written book and read it (and this is why I no longer can enjoy D&D/FR stories--WotC couldn't write if their life depended on it--only as a VG setting), or choose a plot/character-focused movie and watch it.
I do actually have something of an issue with how the game presents that. It says it's reactive and you can choose how to do things and in what order to tackle things, but it's actually quite proscriptive on that. For example, I went to the Goblin Keep via an underground passage without going through the camp outside the front gate in Act I, and then the Gauntlet of Shar before going Moonrise Towers in Act II, which is (in both cases) the reverse order that the game expects you to do them. In both cases, it broke the game logic and I kept getting dialogue that was nonsensical because it had assumed I'd done things I'd not done at all, and my character's dialogue options were basically going along with that. Conversely, it's far too easy to miss content through silly means (like you can miss recruiting Karlach at all because she's standing in a weird, out-of-the-way place, and it's surprisingly easy to miss Wyll in the druid camp, and without Wyll you won't get the quest marker to find Karlach).
Howevere, I do highly respect the ways the game can adapt to your actions. For example, I found the fight with Nere ridiculously tough, so I cheesed it by having an invisible character wait until he ran by and then yeeted him into lava with a surprise push. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2023 : 20:21:00
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| As far as I know, the weird dialogues are bugs. Like Gale thinking that you accepted Raphael's deal even if you didn't. There have been quite a lot of complaints about this kind of bug floating around, I hope Larian fixes them soon. But yeah, I agree with you that these bugs have a negative impact on the core strength of the game. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 26 Oct 2023 20:22:19 |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2023 : 09:02:26
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I just finished the game. I wish I were a lot more into it than I am, but as it is, I can recognize that objectively it's a good game, however to me it felt clunky much of the time and more stressful than relaxing. I know there are mods to address the clunkiness, but I couldn't even begin to put into words what I found clunky about it. The clicking to move is a big part of that feeling, especially when it comes to doors and jump/fly actions through doors. Inventory management was a nightmare. But most of all, I found a lot of what they did with the lore to be really jarring: Ao being relatively common knowledge, people of the world referring to it as the "Forgotten Realms", the plethora of magic items (and I don't mean that we as players can find; Gale makes a comment about how the Realms is just covered with magical items), what they did with Balduran, the entire thing with the dragon underneath the city and his oath, ... those are the major ones that come to mind. I can understand why they needed to do it from a video game perspective, but maybe it's because I'm soured on how literally every recent Drizzt trilogy is about how he saves the world that I wasn't keen on a game where we save the world. Also, why do the portals in Raphael's portal room include Luskan alongside the major cities instead of, say, Cormyr? Is it because they were trying to restrict the scope of things to the Sword Coast, even when it's inconsequential as it was in that case since we couldn't use those portals anyway?
Back to the topic at hand: Is it just me, or did the city of Baldur's Gate feel kind of small? Again, I can understand why they had to do it that way for the scope of the game, and admittedly it's not quite as bad a compression as Stormwind in WoW, but I'd expected the major cities of Faerun to be bigger. Not as big as NYC per se, but not like only an hour to traverse it from one side to the other. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2023 : 09:49:54
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To me, the most jarring part was that you face godlike entities AND their bodyguards at like level 11. I mean, it's pretty on par with what I've heard from 5e DMs (monsters just aren't a threat anymore past lv 10), but it feels cheap. It's way too easy for us to defeat Raphael, (Mephistophele's son,ffs- At that point I was half expeting the game to let me face Zariel at lv 11. Or yet, Myrkul's Avatar is a joke, and you face him at lv 9-10...).
I didn't really feel the clunkyness of movement (aside from jumping), but that's because I had installed the WASD and free camera mods before I started the game. Pretty sure I would have found it frustrating to use click-to-move as well. To me, the most frustrating mechanic was the dice roll; I can't stress enough how anooying it is in a videogamee. That's because in TTRPGs the DM can help craft an interesting "failing forward" narrative, which means that both successes and failures contribute to enhancing the story (as it should be in storytelling games). In VGs, dice roll fdailures tend to just amount to "you miss content". I also don't like how the dice roll always manages to interrupt the pacing. The only failing forward I've seen in BG3 happens at the very end (failing to control the brain leads you to the whole end battle. Then again, given the DCs, I can tell you are supposed to fail those checks).
I tend to agree on Balduran. When I found out, however, I was less bothered than I probably should have been. Perhaps because it fits well withing the thematic viewpoint of the story. The game offers a cynical viewpoint, as the mighty and the legends almost always turn up to be overrated, and latching on to them leads characters to ruin. On the contrary, renouncing them leads to freedom. And true legends (Orpheus) know and make sure that the power is in the hand of the individuals. Is this story well-suited for a setting of heroics like the Realms? It's not ideal, but I'm not too bothered by that, because the game's non-canon (per WotC's stance on canon), so what happens in the game stays in the game.
Btw, the game's missing the Upper City (from what I know, they cut it from the game pre-release). I hope they eventually get around to releasing it. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 Oct 2023 13:34:56 |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2023 : 18:29:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
To me, the most jarring part was that you face godlike entities AND their bodyguards at like level 11. I mean, it's pretty on par with what I've heard from 5e DMs (monsters just aren't a threat anymore past lv 10), but it feels cheap.
I agree, level 11 felt more like level 19 in D&D terms. That being said, I don't necessarily agree that monsters aren't a threat anymore past level 10 in 5e, I've DMed several 5e campaigns with players who are way more experienced in D&D than I am that min-maxed their characters to the teeth, and while there are certainly encounters where it's really frustrating how easily they defeated them, it is also the case that they wouldn't have been able to defeat things on par with Demon Princes and above until after level 15. I feel like BG3 scaled up the power of the higher levels since 12 is the level cap.
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Originally posted by IrennanThe only failing forward I've seen in BG3 happens at the very end (failing to control the brain leads you to the whole end battle. Then again, given the DCs, I can tell you are supposed to fail those checks).
The DC99 check was certainly one of those, but nonetheless one that you can beat with a nat 20. That being said, none of those rolls mattered in the end, you could succeed or fail them but the results were the same either way; I reloaded a bunch of saves to succeed on each roll, only to get the same results as when I failed them. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2470 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2023 : 22:37:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I don't recall this being stated anywhere. The version I remember is that Mystra took Gale under her wing after he showed insane skills with spells. It isn't specified at which point of his life this happened. Also, yes, Gale certainly isn't old, but his age is unspecified as far as I know.
As a young child. I'll search for the dialogue.
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and the direction that Gale's throught process takes after learning about the Karsite Weave (since he basically just wants to replace Mystra at that point).
Yes, I cannot argue this point, Gale there is a stlarning idiot full of himself, believing himself better than Mystra out of self-righteousness (which only betrays how young he is). But all of this is also a fault of Mystra, as well. Had she decided to treat Gale as a person instead of as a possession, things wouldn't have escalated to that point.
The fault is of both here: Gale for being so full of himself and Mystra for being a Karen — whether because she is a shit person or scared out of trauma (something we aren't sure about, as we don't know if Larian is aware of that and wrote her character that way; you are going all meta here); however, that doesn't justifies the way she treated Gale.
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You know that gods can't intervene, because Ao and whatever other excuse.
Excuses, as you say.
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Thank you for the links, I haven't finished the game yet, but I'll check Gale's ending as soon as I'm done, as I'm interested in the conclusion to his arc.
Don't get your hopes high. Those endings are for Gale if you play with him as your main character. I haven't watched Gale's ending as a companion. Though, it gives us a hint of what would happen if Gale goes all "Bruh, Ima god!" route. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2023 : 00:57:50
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| What do you guys think of the portrayal of Mystra? I'm not really a fan of how it's led a lot of people, especially those who like Gale, to hate her so much that they desperately want to kill her; perhaps it's because they aren't aware of the history of the Realms, but that doesn't feel like a good takeaway from all of that at all, at least for me. I mean, it's like, do you guys WANT a catastrophic world-ravaging event, like as happened in the past when the goddess of magic was killed? While I like Gale well enough, the only thing I can think of when he talks about possibly supplanting Mystra is, "Have we learned NOTHING from Karsus?" |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
187 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2023 : 01:05:44
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
What do you guys think of the portrayal of Mystra? I'm not really a fan of how it's led a lot of people, especially those who like Gale, to hate her so much that they desperately want to kill her; perhaps it's because they aren't aware of the history of the Realms, but that doesn't feel like a good takeaway from all of that at all, at least for me. I mean, it's like, do you guys WANT a catastrophic world-ravaging event, like as happened in the past when the goddess of magic was killed? While I like Gale well enough, the only thing I can think of when he talks about possibly supplanting Mystra is, "Have we learned NOTHING from Karsus?"
I think Mystra's fine in the game. She is so over the BS of people trying to screw with the Weave at this point given what's repeatedly happened. She was also like canonically stuck as a bear for a century and is only ten years or so back to full power, which is probably not helping her crankiness. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2470 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2023 : 04:21:43
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The thing is that we don't really know if Larian took the "Mystra is tired/traumatized because she is the Kenny of the Forgotten Realms" into account when writing her character. We don't know what information WotC gave to Larian, and what stuff they decided on their own. Yeah, we the fans know her background from earlier editions, but trying to use that perspective to explain her character in the game is just meta, especially when we know WotC's approach to canon lately.
We also know that Larian did some characters dirty, like what happened with Viconia and Sarevok, so it's not farfetched to think Larian just wanted her to be a Karen. Until there is no official explanation, this is what we have. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 28 Oct 2023 04:23:43 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2023 : 11:47:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
As a young child. I'll search for the dialogue.
But how? Mystra stopped being a bear in the 1480s, and she only returned in 1487 DR (only by then she was well enough to potentially take new apprentices, bnefore that she was preoccupied with not dying again, and seeing Lolth's BS off). BG3 happens in 1492 DR. How could have she taken Gale as a young child, if Gale is currently an adult? You would have to take a wild leap, and assume that Gale's currently 18 (I refuse to believe that, honestly), and Mystra took him whe he was 13. If Gale stated that Mystra took him as a young child, then he was clearly making stuff up.
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The fault is of both here: Gale for being so full of himself and Mystra for being a Karen — whether because she is a shit person or scared out of trauma (something we aren't sure about, as we don't know if Larian is aware of that and wrote her character that way; you are going all meta here); however, that doesn't justifies the way she treated Gale.
I can agree that Mystra shouldn't have asked Gale to kill himself (though, as I said, I can understand why she did--it was the safest choice), that's her mistake. Which isn't to say it's a small thing, but it's in reaction to: a)Gale intentionally trying to break her boundaries b)Gale betraying her trust and doing reckelss sh*t that endangered her when she was at her weakest. She didn't just one day wake up and ask Gale to sacrifice himself to destroy the Absolute.
Which means that yes, they're both at fault, and that's a point I've never meant to argue. It remains that I wouldn't say that Mystra's fault is being a Karen, rather I'd say that she was too hardned and cold (which, as I said, is 100% understandable, but I agree it's not not justifiable). If you do some reckless sh*t that endangers countless lives, you should be held responsible to it, and you should give your all to fix it. A Karen behavior would be something like "this thing is threatening me--give your all to erase it, and if you have to sacrifice, then so be it", not "you did this thing that's made you a ticking bomb and a danger to not only me, but to the Weave and countless others--you should fix it, even if it kills you". This latter behavior is cold, some may say cruel (I disagree), but not Karen-like.
It's true that we don't know Larian's intentions (but seriously, they know about the Spellplague, they know that Mystra has just returned, etc... Because there are books in the game that talk about Spellplague and Sundering). However, Mystra's portrayal was a mistake regardless, because Lairan only offered us Gale's PoV.
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Excuses, as you say.
Excuses to us (I was talking from a writing perspective, not in-universe), but not from the characters' PoV, because those barriers are very real. You know what happens when Ao gets mad.
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Don't get your hopes high. Those endings are for Gale if you play with him as your main character. I haven't watched Gale's ending as a companion. Though, it gives us a hint of what would happen if Gale goes all "Bruh, Ima god!" route.
That's a bummer. I wanted to do a Dark Urge playthrough, and am not really feeling like playing a wizard again (my Eilistraee "priestess" was actually a Bard/Wizard multiclass with the "Deity for All" mod. Btw, that combo is fun as hell, especially if you use the mod that adds the Bladesinger subclass). Maybe I'll do a Gale playthrough when I decide to pick up the game again. Hopefully they'll ahve fixed many of the bugs by then. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 28 Oct 2023 12:02:54 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2023 : 11:50:20
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
What do you guys think of the portrayal of Mystra? I'm not really a fan of how it's led a lot of people, especially those who like Gale, to hate her so much that they desperately want to kill her; perhaps it's because they aren't aware of the history of the Realms, but that doesn't feel like a good takeaway from all of that at all, at least for me. I mean, it's like, do you guys WANT a catastrophic world-ravaging event, like as happened in the past when the goddess of magic was killed? While I like Gale well enough, the only thing I can think of when he talks about possibly supplanting Mystra is, "Have we learned NOTHING from Karsus?"
Me and Zero have been talking about Mystra in this very page. The TL; DR of my position is that both Gale and Mystra were terrible to each other, but Larian should have provided more of Mystra's PoV--having your partner violate your boundaries and endangering your life and all you have built in the same way that your enemies have endangered it before, right as you're recovering, deserves more of an exploration. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 28 Oct 2023 11:51:11 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1308 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2023 : 01:14:17
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This was mentioned elsewhere, but I thought it worth sharing here ->
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The whole "collective burden which brings the characters together" was done better with the titular Azure Bonds in "Curse of the Azure Bonds" (specifically, the early AD&D 2e module) than the Illithid tadpoles in Larian's project.
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Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1279 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2023 : 09:42:55
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| If Larian picks up the Gold Box games (as stand alone adventures of Pool of Radiance and (Curse of the) Azure Bonds) I would be the happiest guy in the world. |
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Explore the entire city of Baldur's Gate in BG3
