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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Oct 2023 : 18:22:58
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weird, I have more hours in act3 than in other two combined, maybe cause there's not as much companion reactivity (except for Jaheira and Minsc)
I was surprised too with so much of the plot involving planar stuff (githyanki, tieflings, devils), tough I disagree that they aren't a part of the Realms. They put a lot of effort to connect previous lore, the city doesn't look much slum-infested tough, from mechanical side I miss real time with pause combat. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1308 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2023 : 22:07:56
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The writing (including Larian's trademark "humor"...holy crap).
The combat.
The MMORPG-esque items (what's wrong with the classics?).
The romances (they move at a breakneck pace compared to the partners in the second game and they're often needlessly vulgar for the sake of vulgarity whereas the originals are far more thoughtful).
The racial designs. How do you botch the physiognomy of Elves? Why are the Drow mostly a mixture of Skeeter and Smurfs? Why are the Goblins humanized? The T models look like Humans with bolted-on horns.
The music.
The voice acting (performances that feel so very contemporary by comparison).
The focus on explosive Hollywood-esque spectacle (some have likened it to a "Michael Bay" film) instead of a slow-burn.
The recycled Larian assets (including their peculiar favored genre conventions).
The lore discrepancies.
The invasion angle adds too much of a science-fiction element, in my estimation; I am not opposed to the idea of planar travel, but this execution in particular didn't feel adequately "fantasy" from start to finish.
...and in addition to the aforementioned inconsistencies that make this game feel distinctly off-the-mark, I have two pet peeves:
1.) There is no day/night cycle; the present scene shifts to nighttime when you deliberately choose to make camp/rest, but it is entirely under your control. In the original game (a quarter-century old by this point), night comes whether you desire it or not. Ultimately, BG3 carries a degree of artificiality reminding you that the world is - at least in this regard - catering to the player instead of functioning like a living environment.
2.) Of the returning characters, at least two of them are not represented by their original voice actors; their replacements are a bad fit, to say the least.
--- --- ---
I would rather slap a copy of Volo's Guide to The Sword Coast into the hands of a halfway competent Dungeon Master and see what they envision than put up with this...thing that wandered out of the uncanny valley. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
Edited by - Azar on 05 Oct 2023 00:17:42 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2023 : 22:38:38
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At first I didn't like the game because of the story...then I had an idea that really it is a GREAT story about a Githyanki running battle against the Mind Flayers.
I made a Githyanki Wizard, teamed up with she who is a grouch and the game was then amazing for me. I simply played the role of a Githyanki taking part in the ongoing war against former enslavers and it was a fun experience so far.
Granted, I have not FINISHED the game...but one spoiler:
Don't insult Vlaakith's divinity!
Is this my Forgotten Realms? I dare say it is barely IN the Forgotten Realms at any rate...so no.
I still love the days of the Old Grey Box; but this IS a fun game. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2023 : 23:17:42
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@Azar. Some points agree, some others I don't see any objective elements to back them up.
The writing was very much like D&D tropes with a twist, and generic fantasy tropes with tons of lore&history are what the FR have to offer. That's hardly arguable. If you disliked it, then you also probably disliked a lot of the FR novels and D&D material out there (100% understandable, btw--stuff can get *hilariously* bad). Personally, if the Absolute dudes had been more nuanced, I would have enjoyed it way more, but I was up for a nostalgia ride with D&D fantasy tropes, and still enjoyed it. I also thought that the Dead Three's plan was pretty neat, and you can piece it together way sooner than it's revealed, which is a well-known sign of good design and story planning. Overall, I'm not sure if you are evaluating the writing based on the principles of the protagonist transformation arc (the core of a good story), but using those principles wouldn't make sense to evaluate the overall writing in a game. The writing is mostly geared towards offering you tons of freedom, and making different choices actually lead to different outcomes in every situation, no matter how minor: when playing a game, that's the most important part, because it really makes you feel like the story is yours. If I want to immerse myself in a well-defined character, then I'm probably looking for a good character transformation arc, which means I'll read a good book, or watch something decent.
On that note, you can use the character transformation arc to evaluate how every companion changes: up to now, each companion has well defined stakes, a ftal flaw/control theory and flawed worldview holding them back by leading them to chase something that's not what they actually want, and pertinent obstacles that feed into their flaws (surprisingly nuanced in Astarion's case--and I say that even though I havenět played act III yet). Overall, the writing has more goods than bads (and a lot of the bads are mostly tied to the shackles of D&D lore). Nothing exceptional, but I was pleasantly surprised after seeing so many writers that don't seem to have studied anything before sitting down to write.
Speaking of lore, they did a pretty good job sticking to 1492 DR FR: if anything, *too* good IMO. They could have toned down some of the more corny aspects of the lore. Example: every time I heard something about Shar, the only thing I could think of was "damn, they're such dumbasses". And the Myrkul lines--so, *so* corny, yet so "accurate". I honestly agree with you that they should have made their own game--the dated aspects of D&D/FR lore that we're fond of despite their flaws only held back this game. The D&D mechanics are a net negative IMHO, and can make strategies quite pointless. So yeah, they paid WotC to use stuff that made their game worse. Not gonna lie, I'm happy that they did )it felt good to be able to play an Eilistraean drow in the modern realms, and I'm grateful for that). I would have just prefered that they had allowed themselves more freedom in changing the lore when it made the story worse.
Agree on elven/drow looks (they're the same). Then again, elves have really always just been "humans, just better", so it didn't really matter to me. The gith were really well done though--not only their 3D models, but their portrayal as a culture. They feel like Lolthite drow that actually make sense. In fact, I'd say that the gith take the elves' place as the otherwordly race in BG3. Highlight of the game as far as I'm concerned. The goblins were fine, and I can't see your point about them looking like humans with horns. I'm not sure how people look where you live, but I certainly don't see many people looking like BG3 goblins around.
Romances.. I didn't do any of them (I very rarely do romances in games), so I can't comment aside from general stuff that I know. I actually welcome what you call "vulgarity" (I assume explicit sex scenes). Displaying sex, even explictly, isn't vulgar. At least it isn't generally considered vulgar where I live. Sex is just sex, no more or less worthy to be part of a story than other elements. Stories need to include only elements that are strictly necessary to the character's transformation arc and its obstacles, true, but this is a game story. It should allow you as much freedom as possible, which means there's no reason (other than wanting to act prude) to randomly exclude sex. As for the breakneck pace, I dunno: if I wanted to play a romance, I'd actually prefer for it to actually be a romance from the early phases of the game, and and then evolve, rather than only becoming a romance at the very end, when it doesn't matter anymore. I don't know how BG3 wrote evolving romances though, so I won't comment on that.
The voice acting was super expressive and immersive. The VA managed to make each character's personality come to life. I'm not sure what you mean by "contemporary": human emotions and voices are the same now as they were in the Middle Ages.
Overall, it seems to me that a lot of the things you're blaming on the game, are actually to blame on D&D. I repeat, they did themselves a huge disservice by buying the D&D license--at least as far as quality is oncerned, I have no idea if they benefited from it from a marketing perspective. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 04 Oct 2023 23:35:33 |
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Werthead
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
187 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2023 : 23:23:28
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I think there's also been a shift in the way all of the campaign settings - not just FR - have been presented in 5E. Back in the day each campaign world had its own distinct logo and its own distinct line of products, and there were Forgotten Realms fans who disliked Ravenloft or Dark Sun and didn't touch any of it, and likewise there were Planescape fans who hated FR and Dragonlance and didn't touch it. Crossovers were rare and a bit bemusing (as much as they tried to make it work, the feeling was always that spelljamming simply did not exist on Toril aside from the very vanishingly few times they decided to bring it up, and Spelljammer's FR-related products didn't feel like the "proper" Realms at all).
WotC's modern attitude is that the D&D multiverse in its entirety is their playground and their setting, and Toril is just the world they (normally) default to for "standard" D&D adventures. If an adventure requires them to go to Krynn or Avernus or Sigil instead, no problem. Also, if an adventure requires people/things/an entire city to move from Toril to Avernus and back again, basically being what we would have called in 1996 a Forgotten Realms-Planescape crossover campaign, they'll do that without a fuss (although recall that Elminster and Waukeen spent time stuck in the Nine Hells in 2E, and multiple FR-specific adventure lines had trips into other planes as early as the 1E Bloodstone Wars campaign, where you had to get to Level 100 and kill Orcus on his home plane) because everything is now on the table for every campaign.
It's probably good to bring the spotlight onto less-popular campaign settings. I doubt Neo-Spelljammer or Neo-Planescape (flawed as both are) would have sold as well if they'd been presented as discrete worlds with their own logos and not connected to the core D&D experience.
quote:
I was surprised too with so much of the plot involving planar stuff (githyanki, tieflings, devils), tough I disagree that they aren't a part of the Realms. They put a lot of effort to connect previous lore, the city doesn't look much slum-infested tough, from mechanical side I miss real time with pause combat.
I was trying to work out where to fit all these new locations in on the map (and groaning) and was rather startled to find Moonrise Towers is actually on the FRIA map from 1999! Then I did a hit trawl of my entire FR PDF collection from DM's Guild (which took forever) and eventually it spat out a single reference to the facility from Code of the Harpers (1993). I was actually quite impressed by that, although almost everything else was created by Larian from scratch. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2023 : 23:31:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
At first I didn't like the game because of the story...then I had an idea that really it is a GREAT story about a Githyanki running battle against the Mind Flayers.
I made a Githyanki Wizard, teamed up with she who is a grouch and the game was then amazing for me. I simply played the role of a Githyanki taking part in the ongoing war against former enslavers and it was a fun experience so far.
Granted, I have not FINISHED the game...but one spoiler:
Don't insult Vlaakith's divinity!
Is this my Forgotten Realms? I dare say it is barely IN the Forgotten Realms at any rate...so no.
I still love the days of the Old Grey Box; but this IS a fun game.
That's my plan for a second playthrough (though I would have preferred if they had made githzerai playable as well).
@Azar Tangentially related note, continuning on the topic of companions from the other post, LAe'zel's grouchiness is an example of what I meant when I said that companions are generally well written. Lae'zel has a compelling layer of nuance to he rgrouchiness. She's scared as hell, she's living the worst possible nightmare for a gith, and she should also exterminate you. Yet, she's still trying to help you. Intended contradictions are the dimensions of a character (McKee), and in this case her internal conflict reveals quite a bit of her, as it shows a seed of compassion that goes against the general githianky zealotry. it also foreshadows her possible break from Vlaakith's dogma (which has a good build-up to). Predictable? Yes, but it's predictable in the good way.
This is an objectively good piece of writing. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2023 : 23:55:40
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EDIT: post I was replying to was deleted, I'll leave this here, in case the poster wants to read regardless.
I meant as far as their actual portrayal as characters in stories (generally) goes. They're so popular because they're a power fantasy--humans, but more beautiful, virtually ageless, more powerful, more magical, faster, etc... Just "humans, but better". This is why I wasn't bothered by BG#163; butchering elven/Drow physiognomy: the looks now match the story, heh.
I do agree with you that they entirely missed the canon elven looks. In fact, I was very surprised by that, because I loved how ethereal their elves looked in DOS II. I do know that many people complained about their looks, though, so maybe Larian mmade elves look like humans due to that. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 04 Oct 2023 23:59:22 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1308 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2023 : 00:40:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Agree on elven/drow looks (they're the same). Then again, elves have really always just been "humans, just better", so it didn't really matter to me.
I'm not here for a protracted discussion, but I did want to address this point.
No.
In addition to overall shorter/slimmer builds (especially with the Drow), they're supposed to have a slope/tilt to their eyes and angular features; they're not literally "Humans with pointed ears" and nothing else, despite how much this line gets repeated. Now, this laziness can possibly be attributed to the heavy reliance on facial capture technology (that is, having to center a character model's facial construction around the human norm, more or less), but if that's the case...then they allowed a known limitation to weaken fidelity to art. That's not how this is supposed to work. If the task was too taxing, then a different studio - people that actually cared - should have been the one handed the keys. Another alternative is that they followed that which is popular (something closer to the Tolkien mold, for instance) instead of that which might not look as conventionally attractive.
This - and more - consistently reminds me that the project was a Larian game first and a Baldur's Gate/Forgotten Realms experience second. Considering that fact that Swen Vincke is basically on record stating that BG3 was a way to pimp his company, I am not surprised by the end result.
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Originally posted by Werthead
WotC's modern attitude is that the D&D multiverse in its entirety is their playground and their setting, and Toril is just the world they (normally) default to for "standard" D&D adventures.
Yes, precisely. There were links off to the side for you - the DM - to pursue in the event you were feeling experimental, but this latest approach is "kitchen sink" writ large to the point of detriment, to say nothing of WOTC's schizophrenic view on the subject of canon.
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Originally posted by Werthead
It's probably good to bring the spotlight onto less-popular campaign settings. I doubt Neo-Spelljammer or Neo-Planescape (flawed as both are) would have sold as well if they'd been presented as discrete worlds with their own logos and not connected to the core D&D experience.
TFB. I play a Forgotten Realms campaign to experience...The Forgotten Realms. It would have taken more work to make those settings stand on their own without hitching them to a popular campaign setting? Shocking...shocking, I say.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Is this my Forgotten Realms? I dare say it is barely IN the Forgotten Realms at any rate...so no.
It's just not Forgotten Realms, overall: there's this subtle yet omnipresent almost superhero atmosphere (part of this can be blamed on 5e and its bump in power level, but tone is another consideration) mixed with curiously contemporary deliveries/personalities and the science-fiction heavy Illithid invasion. I suspect that once the honeymoon phase begins to wane, people will cast a more objective eye on the offering. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2023 : 05:13:45
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The elven appearance thing...it's weird for me because their previous game had elves that were radically different from humans physically to the point of being downright alien....but they did have the 'elven face shape' that pops up in quite a lot of media, including D&D of course. I can only guess that it was a choice done because with their more cinematic focus in BG3, the elves would look less conventionally attractive to players which is a no-no I guess with the focus on romance.
The 'wider D&D multiverse' doesn't bother me so much if the story is actually about it....wouldn't be the first time a Forgotten Realms game went to hell or showed off a spelljammer. But the various aspects of the game are just so....all over the place, it just feels like filler. Liek the game didn't need six or seven deities or whatever it was all vying for screentime in the story. Choose one of the dead three, please. Both the original BG games and Neverwinter Nights MoTB were better for their comparative restraint. That goes for a lot of elements, the Nine Hells involvement, the Mindflayers, Gith etc. The game seems to go for the spectacle over substance route when it comes to storytelling-just throwing the whole kitchen sink at the player in one distracting mess that's engaging in the moment but falls apart immediately when you start to look at it with any certainty. There's a thread right now on the official Larian forums basically breaking down how the entire timeline for the game is a confusing contradictory mess.
And that goes the whole way down to the little lore details, the sort of things that make a setting feel like it has depth. With astonishing regularity, you can find references to little lore snippits here and there that if followed up on (even just with a trip to the wiki, which I'm convinced they used as a primary source for lore) and find that it's....off. A lot of times it feels like a misread or misinterpretation, but sometimes it's just straight up rewriting major events, characters or aspects of the setting out of...convenience? apathy? Honestly I felt more love for the setting from the original games. I don't know how many of the staff actually played the original games or were fans of the setting during that edition, but I don't see a lot that indicates there was a major push to capture that in BG III, maybe it was lacking an advocate, researcher, a lore expert etc that the devs would listen to, IDK. But it shows.
But back to the subject of the more out there aspects of BG III. They really needed to just pick an antagonist, a plot and stick with it. I think mindflayers could work. So could the Nine hells, etc. It's just so....overstuffed and as a result all those promising stuff is just undeveloped and distracts from the main plot, which is underbaked as a result of too much being spread too thin. It's obvious the game had a lot of rewrites and cut content in the later stages. A clearer, better thought out idea of what they were aiming for from the beginning would have been immeasurably better. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1308 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2023 : 06:17:00
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quote:
Originally posted by TKU
The elven appearance thing...it's weird for me because their previous game had elves that were radically different from humans physically to the point of being downright alien....but they did have the 'elven face shape' that pops up in quite a lot of media, including D&D of course. I can only guess that it was a choice done because with their more cinematic focus in BG3, the elves would look less conventionally attractive to players which is a no-no I guess with the focus on romance.
Therein lies the problem with "playing it safe": it is a fantastic tactic for grabbing the uninitiated/LCD, but bad for actually standing out/remaining faithful to decades of lore plus depictions. They are supposed to look different from humanity yet "hauntingly beautiful" (among other descriptors). Personally, I found the representations boring; there are so many great examples of the Tel-quessir stretching back to the 1e era from which they could have derived inspiration and...we got bargain-basement Halloween costuming, instead. When Swen went on and on about "our RPG identity" while talking about Baldur's Gate, I'm surprised more people didn't notice the warning sign. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2023 : 22:10:01
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| One of my biggest pet peeves is that there are no small-race companions -- not a single dwarf, halfling, or gnome. All the companions are young and attractive with fashion-model good looks. I think that says a lot about the developers' intentions and the intended audience. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1279 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2023 : 23:02:20
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Wow this thread raises a good point that I hadn't even clocked before - there are a LOT of deities meddling in for what starts off as a level 1 adventure:
The Githyanki goddess gets super involved and you deal with her son (so a demi-god?)
You have Myrkul, Bane, and Bhaal all involved to some extent - Myrkul and Bhaal avatars personally involved
Shar - personally involved in the characters because of Shadowheart and Shar's Spear/Nightsong
Selune - cause Shar
And then quite a few arch devils who are basically dieties or at least they were when I stopped trying to follow the nonsense lore of FR/D&D sometime after 3rd edition
That's really a lot of direct deity involvement for a starts at level 1 adventure that isn't really about being a Bhaalspawn anymore (dark urge playthrough aside).
Tone it down Larian! |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1279 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2023 : 23:06:21
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
One of my biggest pet peeves is that there are no small-race companions -- not a single dwarf, halfling, or gnome. All the companions are young and attractive with fashion-model good looks. I think that says a lot about the developers' intentions and the intended audience.
I have to wonder because of the realism of the models, somewhat graphic sex scenes and the origin characters' eagerness to jump into bed with the player character - do you think it creeped some management out to code in and display sex scenes with little sized characters and big sized characters that most customers would be easily able to see? (I guess you can make your Tav a small sized race either way so maybe not, see also Halsin bear scene)
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1308 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2023 : 23:31:48
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Speaking of which...
When it came to Mazzy, courtship was an impossibility  .
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
One of my biggest pet peeves is that there are no small-race companions -- not a single dwarf, halfling, or gnome. All the companions are young and attractive with fashion-model good looks. I think that says a lot about the developers' intentions and the intended audience.
I have to wonder because of the realism of the models, somewhat graphic sex scenes and the origin characters' eagerness to jump into bed with the player character - do you think it creeped some management out to code in and display sex scenes with little sized characters and big sized characters that most customers would be easily able to see? (I guess you can make your Tav a small sized race either way so maybe not, see also Halsin bear scene)
Sufficiently mature Dwarves, Gnomes and Halflings don't resemble - nor act as - children, so I don't buy that excuse; anyone reasonably intelligent and/or versed with the fantasy genre knows better. Then again, if Larian was angling for wide audience appeal, they would also have to attract the slower/reflexively judgmental folks. Still, the fact that there's implied bestiality and characters can mate with races that aren't even mammalian makes a Human courting a Halfling (in addition to being the shortest lived of the other races, they are comparable in looks and attitude) tame by comparison (to say nothing of the fact that in-setting characters mate with intelligent non-humanoid beings such as Dragons or long-lived races that make Humans infantile by comparison). |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1279 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2023 : 23:40:29
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It does seem a massive oversight to not include any of the smaller races in the origin characters; I would have really liked a tough male dwarf fighter to balance out the two female melee mains (Lazel and Karlach) - I know it's cliche to have a Flint/Bruenor/Ivan Bouldershoulder in the party but damnit I like a trope!
Also for old time's sake would have loved a Halfling Female Bard main - cause Olive Ruskettle! Would've been great. Just add in those two characters. There are plenty and I mean PLENTY of gnomes featured in the story so not really as needed. |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2023 : 00:06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Wow this thread raises a good point that I hadn't even clocked before - there are a LOT of deities meddling in for what starts off as a level 1 adventure:
The Githyanki goddess gets super involved and you deal with her son (so a demi-god?)
You have Myrkul, Bane, and Bhaal all involved to some extent - Myrkul and Bhaal avatars personally involved
Shar - personally involved in the characters because of Shadowheart and Shar's Spear/Nightsong
Selune - cause Shar
And then quite a few arch devils who are basically dieties or at least they were when I stopped trying to follow the nonsense lore of FR/D&D sometime after 3rd edition
That's really a lot of direct deity involvement for a starts at level 1 adventure that isn't really about being a Bhaalspawn anymore (dark urge playthrough aside).
Tone it down Larian!
I think you hit upon my issue with the setting. It's not that I don't like gonzo fantasy -- I'm a big fan of Spelljammer and Planescape, for example, and I loved Planescape: Torment -- but in a level-1 adventure set in the Sword Coast, I want more traditional fantasy where the characters start in a small village, hunt rats for tavern-keepers, loaf around the countryside, and run screaming from packs of kobolds. If there's to be any planar stuff, I want it in small doses at the higher levels, not front-and-center.
Although I like Dalor Darden's solution of leaning into the gonzo setting and playing a githyanki character. |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2023 : 00:17:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
It does seem a massive oversight to not include any of the smaller races in the origin characters; I would have really liked a tough male dwarf fighter to balance out the two female melee mains (Lazel and Karlach) - I know it's cliche to have a Flint/Bruenor/Ivan Bouldershoulder in the party but damnit I like a trope!
Also for old time's sake would have loved a Halfling Female Bard main - cause Olive Ruskettle! Would've been great. Just add in those two characters. There are plenty and I mean PLENTY of gnomes featured in the story so not really as needed.
I would like a more diverse cast in general. Where's the grizzled old warrior like Bruenor Battlehammer? The mutant lion like Red XIII in Final Fantasy 7? The rogue Modron like Nordom in Planescape: Torment? The mysterious cloaked entity like Gogo in Final Fantasy 6? Why is every character in BG3 a vapid young supermodel? Is this a roleplaying game or Beverly Hills 90210? |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1308 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2023 : 00:55:55
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
I think you hit upon my issue with the setting. It's not that I don't like gonzo fantasy -- I'm a big fan of Spelljammer and Planescape, for example, and I loved Planescape: Torment -- but in a level-1 adventure set in the Sword Coast, I want more traditional fantasy where the characters start in a small village, hunt rats for tavern-keepers, loaf around the countryside, and run screaming from packs of kobolds. If there's to be any planar stuff, I want it in small doses at the higher levels, not front-and-center.
I think this concerns editions (specifically, a shift in focus as video games rose to popularity) as opposed to The Forgotten Realms itself.
AD&D 2e: Heroes from humble hamlets. Life is tough, but those canny, persistent and persuasive enough can - one far-off day - pen their names in the scrolls.
D&D 5e: Medieval fantasy superheroes. Walking on sunshine and many corpses, right out the gate.
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
It does seem a massive oversight to not include any of the smaller races in the origin characters; I would have really liked a tough male dwarf fighter to balance out the two female melee mains (Lazel and Karlach) - I know it's cliche to have a Flint/Bruenor/Ivan Bouldershoulder in the party but damnit I like a trope!
Also for old time's sake would have loved a Halfling Female Bard main - cause Olive Ruskettle! Would've been great. Just add in those two characters. There are plenty and I mean PLENTY of gnomes featured in the story so not really as needed.
I would like a more diverse cast in general. Where's the grizzled old warrior like Bruenor Battlehammer? The mutant lion like Red XIII in Final Fantasy 7? The rogue Modron like Nordom in Planescape: Torment? The mysterious cloaked entity like Gogo in Final Fantasy 6? Why is every character in BG3 a vapid young supermodel? Is this a roleplaying game or Beverly Hills 90210?
I can't imagine a Kivan or a Keldorn (i.e., entirely earnest, wholly moral and classically masculine characters that aren't dropping unnecessarily sarcastic rejoinders every other second...so not muscular meatheads or parodies/deconstructions of heroes in the traditional sense) in Larian's take. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2023 : 01:29:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
I would like a more diverse cast in general. Where's the grizzled old warrior like Bruenor Battlehammer? The mutant lion like Red XIII in Final Fantasy 7? The rogue Modron like Nordom in Planescape: Torment? The mysterious cloaked entity like Gogo in Final Fantasy 6? Why is every character in BG3 a vapid young supermodel? Is this a roleplaying game or Beverly Hills 90210?
I can't imagine a Kivan or a Keldorn (i.e., entirely earnest, wholly moral and classically masculine characters that aren't dropping unnecessarily sarcastic rejoinders every other second...so not muscular meatheads or parodies/deconstructions of heroes in the traditional sense) in Larian's take.
This is actually the main reason why I stopped playing BG3. All the characters felt like high-school bullies. They were sarcastic, rude, and at times downright threatening (How often do Lae'zel and Astarion threaten to kill your character?). After a certain point, I had to put the game down for my own mental health. It felt like I was in a toxic relationship.
And yes, truly earnest, moral characters seem to be lacking in media these days. In addition to the two you mentioned, there was Dak'kon in Planescape: Torment, who you could have whole conversations with exploring Taoist-inspired philosophy. Even Morte, one of the most sarcastic characters in Planescape: Torment, was generally nice and supportive. Compared to Larian's cast of characters, even the more psychotic characters from the Bioware games seem like models of decorum. |
Edited by - HighOne on 06 Oct 2023 01:30:27 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1279 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2023 : 12:27:37
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They do flesh out and give reasons why the party members are so mean and saraastic and bullying that make sense, but at the same time - it is missing the counter. Even Karlach who is the closest thing a main party member can be to a good guy is giant, flaming, red, devil-horned and full of swear words which kind of takes her far from a traditional supportive/nice character. Same with Wyll, who is super nice as well and trying to do the good thing but hangs out with devils and has horns and quasi tiefling cause reasons. Why are they both red? Ugh. This is kind of a mess the more you dig into it.
Side bar does anyone else feel the "Drow Ranger" that was so kewl from the 90s-00s has now been replaced with the "Tiefling Warlock"? That and how everyone has charisma which is not only a damage stat for reasons unexplainable to me but also gives you the best dialogue choices, so why not play a charisma heavy class like warlock, sorcerer or paladin (also 3 of the highest damage classes). More a problem with 5e I guess than BG3.
And I do like the game, less my nitpicks sound like I don't- for clarity!
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1308 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2023 : 13:49:39
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
I would like a more diverse cast in general. Where's the grizzled old warrior like Bruenor Battlehammer? The mutant lion like Red XIII in Final Fantasy 7? The rogue Modron like Nordom in Planescape: Torment? The mysterious cloaked entity like Gogo in Final Fantasy 6? Why is every character in BG3 a vapid young supermodel? Is this a roleplaying game or Beverly Hills 90210?
I can't imagine a Kivan or a Keldorn (i.e., entirely earnest, wholly moral and classically masculine characters that aren't dropping unnecessarily sarcastic rejoinders every other second...so not muscular meatheads or parodies/deconstructions of heroes in the traditional sense) in Larian's take.
This is actually the main reason why I stopped playing BG3. All the characters felt like high-school bullies. They were sarcastic, rude, and at times downright threatening (How often do Lae'zel and Astarion threaten to kill your character?). After a certain point, I had to put the game down for my own mental health. It felt like I was in a toxic relationship.
I blame both Marvel cinema and Game of Thrones; thanks to the combined popularity of those franchises, "snarky anti-hero" has seemingly become the default character in modern fantasy and anyone playing the role of the hero straight is - more often than not - either viewed with a side-eye or considered a fuddy-duddy.
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
And yes, truly earnest, moral characters seem to be lacking in media these days. In addition to the two you mentioned, there was Dak'kon in Planescape: Torment, who you could have whole conversations with exploring Taoist-inspired philosophy. Even Morte, one of the most sarcastic characters in Planescape: Torment, was generally nice and supportive. Compared to Larian's cast of characters, even the more psychotic characters from the Bioware games seem like models of decorum.
Come to think of it, we can add Valygar to the list  ; he's a quintessential representation of Neutral Good.
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Side bar does anyone else feel the "Drow Ranger" that was so kewl from the 90s-00s has now been replaced with the "Tiefling Warlock"?
INDEED!
Because I wasn't immersed in this hobby during the heyday of the Drow, I had to put in real effort to visualize the pain/annoyance of folks that found them - especially any and all Do'Urden clones - overdone in the extreme. However...I can safely say that I absolutely loathe the D&D 4e+ Tieflings; not only are these discount demons e-ver-y-where, but their role as a fantasy counterpart for victims of real-world prejudice on the basis of ethnicity is clumsy and thoroughly ill-suited (a fact which becomes painfully evident if you spare a microsecond to contemplate the worlds they inhabit). They skyrocketed in popularity because the "bad boy" archetype keeps coming back from the grave with a vigor that would impress Count Dracula.
Despite that antipathy, the TSR/Planescape Tieflings don't rankle me whatsoever. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
214 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2023 : 16:18:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Side bar does anyone else feel the "Drow Ranger" that was so kewl from the 90s-00s has now been replaced with the "Tiefling Warlock"? That and how everyone has charisma which is not only a damage stat for reasons unexplainable to me but also gives you the best dialogue choices, so why not play a charisma heavy class like warlock, sorcerer or paladin (also 3 of the highest damage classes). More a problem with 5e I guess than BG3.
Yes, I've never liked Charisma-based casters. Arcane magic is supposed to require intelligence and years of hard work to master. But now we have casters who acquire their powers instantly and are irrestistible sex-machines to boot. IMO, Sorcerers are just wizardly Mary Sues and Warlocks are their emo-goth cousins.
As for Drow Rangers, I was very surprised to learn when I first started reading Drizzt novels in the 2010s that he's actually a very admirable character -- not the anti-hero I'd always imagined. |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2023 : 16:34:49
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Wasn't it outright stated at one point that the push of the 4e Tieflings was because certain leaders at WoTC hated the popularity of 'angsty good drow' and the Tieflings were intended to replace them? I do agree though, I hate how one of the most variable races in the game/setting got turned into cookie cutter red (and occasionally purple) devil men/women. There's hardly anything done with them from a rp/lore perspective either. They don't really have a culture to speak of, and they are all essentially Sword Coast denizens in-game so the interesting possibility of exploring the idea of Tieflings from another plane, possibly from a society where fiends are more integrated is dodged.
A character like Haer'Dalis that leveraged the more unique possibilities of using Tieflings sadly doesn't seem to have been in the cards. Kinda funny to me that if he was chosen as a cmaeo, he probably would have had to grow some horns and a tail to fit in since Tieflings can't be subtle anymore. I presume they'd retcon out his abyssal heritage as well.
Tieflings as is seem to exist just to be there to make shake-and-bake 'exotic' edgy pcs without any sort of major rp commitment. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1308 Posts |
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
283 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2023 : 23:51:55
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| I think that Jarlaxle would be a VERY GOOD NPC! Since the Drow are quite long-lived, he would be an excellent "guest star" in ANY FR-themed endeavor. He is an excellent Chaotic Neutral NPC. He does his best to nullify/dampen the extremeness of the Maiden Mothers. And his behavior indicates that he is very much against the Drow Matriarchy. Plus, he would be an EXCELLENT merchant for any adventurers that may be able to afford his wares. And sometimes he even helps out good-aligned characters. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2023 : 00:47:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
pularity) as opposed to The Forgotten Realms itself.
AD&D 2e: Heroes from humble hamlets. Life is tough, but those canny, persistent and persuasive enough can - one far-off day - pen their names in the scrolls.
D&D 5e: Medieval fantasy superheroes. Walking on sunshine and many corpses, right out the gate.
It's not that in 5e you're super strong (on the contrary, tbh), it's that everything else feels so weak. Before lv5 enemies are actually a threat, but after lv 5, everything is cheese.
If I had to run 5e, I'd buff enemies after lv5, I wouldn't even dream of nerfing PCs. Or better, I'd throw WotC's CR system out of the window, because it's a joke. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 07 Oct 2023 00:48:57 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1308 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2023 : 02:40:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
It's not that in 5e you're super strong (on the contrary, tbh), it's that everything else feels so weak.
...relative to AD&D? Yes, PCs are considerably more capable/powerful: Hit Points have risen, Skills are now fully developed (whereas they were nonexistent or nascent during the 1980s/1990s), "absolute" effects (e.g., instant death, petrification, charm, et cetera) are either gone or castrated, magical healing is in abundance and no longer chiefly the domain of priests, magical items are common, maneuvers reminiscent of video game/MMORPG mechanics are available, more classes are capable of executing multiple attacks in a round, et cetera. Even the art (e.g., massive/ornate armor and larger/glowing weapons) reflects the shift in influences. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3805 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2023 : 04:25:16
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| Magic items aren't common, unless you make them (and they are the same items as ever, but you now also have limitations on how many you can use). 5e isn't like 3e, where anyone could craft anything. Maneuvers aren't reminiscing of videogames at all, unless you count tripping or disarming your enemy as videogamey (and I mean, it was about time fighters could do stuff other than "I hit them with my sword". That isn't super-hero: IRL melee weapon fighting has tons of maneuvers and tactics, you don't just stand there swinging your weapon like in D&D). Magical healing is limited by spell slots like always. I'm not really sure how 2e works, but things are tame in 5e compared to 3e. PCs are frail in the early levels, especially if you use enemies with ranged attacks. After lv5, things start turning into cheese, yes, but I'd say only by lv 11 you can do "super hero" stuff. And when I played BG2 (my main experience with 2e) lv 11 characters were really powerful too. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1308 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2023 : 05:56:31
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*makes "talking" gesture with hand*
Yeah, okay. I remember the early-stage denial with 4e and now no one - save the fanatic advocates - refutes how much that system aped MMORPGs. This trend started with 3e and while it has peaked and dipped here and there (5e swung back to "regular" video games) the development paralleling the popularity of other forms of entertainment is unmistakable.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
and they are the same items as ever
Blatantly untrue, in quite a few cases: the 2e Cloak of Elvenkind, for instance, bestows its benefits on every class (you don't need to be a Thief, Ranger or similarly sneaky individual) whereas the 5e Cloak of Elvenkind is dependent on two "checks" and therefore feels a touch more artificial.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Maneuvers aren't reminiscing of videogames at all, unless you count tripping or disarming your enemy as videogamey (and I mean, it was about time fighters could do stuff other than "I hit them with my sword".
No. Trying to trip someone is not what I had in mind. "Action Surge" and "Second Wind" are two examples clearly inspired by ARPGs. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2023 : 16:17:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
*makes "talking" gesture with hand*
Does this mean what I think it means? I don't want to misconstrue an insult...but what does this even mean? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Explore the entire city of Baldur's Gate in BG3
