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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Jul 2023 : 14:56:23
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Even dust can be explosive. Friction, heat, electrostatic discharge, all these things can ignite it under the right conditions. There are documented observations of natural fires "walking" through deserts.
But dry particle explosions tend to only have brisance, explosive shock force. They suffocate and extinguish themselves instead of causing things to burn. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2023 : 16:57:28
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| Also, since I'm back to thinking about this idea of a cataclysmic happenstance in Thazalhar related to pressure engines.... if there were several factories and/or warehouses owned by the Mulhorandi in the region, all with ties to the pressure engine..... might some of these "places" have become defacto military facilities where troops were keeping logistical goods, resting, etc.... So, if there were some cascade failures that affected these sites, it may have caught military assets in them that wouldn't normally have been in those locations.... but because they were being sent up to quell an uprising they got caught in a by-blow as a result. Talking through this is kind of helping... I think we can come up with a much better story than the initial one we were given of a single demon being so instrumental in turning the tide of the war by combining these 3 canon facts that the end of the second mulhorandi empire was after the battle of Thazalhar, that sometime near the end of the second empire a godking ordered stopping the research of technology, and that Thazalhar was some kind of massive scale destruction that kind of decimated this region such that few want to even return to it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2023 : 15:16:42
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I just keep bouncing this in my head, and one thing that keeps popping up is that the lands that the red wizards occupy... prior to the Mulhorandi moving in and becoming more technologically inclined... was land that was previously held by the Raumathari and prior to that the Imaskari to some degree. The people of the region seemed to have picked up on some Imaskari lore and created the portal city of Shandaular just 5 years after the closing of the orcgate (which I've often said, I wonder if they used the orcgate, copied it, or maybe learned from it to find other Imaskari portals). Whereas the Nar people embrace demon worship, necromancy, and other dark magics... the people of Raumathar seem to focus on elemental magics, "battlemagery", and eventually its said they gain a focus on constructs.
Mulhorand prior to the orcgate and the death of their ruling god Ra had just supposedly discovered "science"
At their peak, 1,000 years before the start of the current age, the First Empires of Mulhorand and Unther were at a level that has never been equalled since. Their magic was extremely powerful, and they had learned a new science "technology" that gave them greater power.
Then as Unther and Mulhorand descend a bit for about 8 centuries and Narfell and Raumathar rise and burn out.... seemingly Raumathar discovers the combining of magic and science. Then when Raumathar falls and Mulhorand moves into their territory, they seemingly double down on their study of technology while taking arcanists and putting them even more under the thumb of the theocracy.
So, all of this is to say that if we did put "factories" of some sort in Thazalhar.... they just might be places previously held and/or created by the Raumathari that were being repurposed by the Mulhorandi... and perhaps the Mulhorandi didn't understand all of their secrets yet.
One thing I do like to think is that the Raumathari study of constructs was not so much the "crafting of cog driven / Lantanese type" constructs... although we have to accept that they DID make some of these later based on novel lore.... but that perhaps they were more like the "elemental myrmidon" of 5e. They would create a suit of armor to "bind" an elemental into and this became their form... perhaps even learning some of the theories that come about for binding genies to lamps and such.
I also find it odd that the "gemstone golems" were said to originate in Mulhorand, and I wonder if these weren't creations of Raumathar that the Mulhorandi didn't learn to recreate. Basically, I picture the Raumathari having a lot of "constructs" that people could easily mixup with elementals.
Finally there are the stone colossi "statues-that-walk" that were "created by a race of giants before "the coming of the lizard folk" that are in Mulhorand. I half wonder if there weren't some of these in Raumathar as well and that perhaps they got activated and destroyed in their conflicts.... but perhaps studying them is what drove a bit of the obsession of the Raumathari into creating constructs. We had done some delving into these guys a few years back here
http://candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22035&whichpage=1
So, bringing this back to the original topic to a degree... perhaps one of these "warehouses" is an old Raumathari warehouse that the Mulhorandi are repurposing... one which held an extradimensional space, and in that extradimensional space was a legion of fire elemental myrmidons for instance... and some kind of explosion related to all of this basically ejects them into the battlefield.
I will also note that "Raumathari Ruins" would seem to indicate that the Raumathari didn't necessarily build their factories/workplaces above ground. They may have been built into the earth. I base this on this entry from Unapproachable East which seems to indicate that Raumathari ruins may have smokestacks that go into the earth, continue to burn STILL, and has "magic that mutates natural creatures" in its region.... almost like radiation... looking backwards this makes me want to have the Raumathari studying the athora
THE RING OF GRAY FLAMES
Raumathari ruins are usually clusters of tall towers, most of which are fallen or severely damaged. Guarded by lethal and large-scale battle-spells, some leach magic into the nearby area, creating odd effects and mutating natural creatures. Their treasures are usually spells designed to slaughter large numbers of foes or items that augment sorcerers’ magic. One ruin, called the Towers of Smoke by the nearby villagers, constantly leaks a plume of deadly vapors (equivalent to a cloudkill spell) and is said to be guarded by iron golems of many sizes.
The most famous ruin is the Ring of Gray Flames, a circle of five narrow towers, each with a harsh gray fire burning atop it. The flame emits only a feeble light but disrupts divine magic brought near it. Occasionally, grinding noises can be heard within the two intact towers. The countryside surrounding the towers is roamed by spell wards, free-willed magical constructs that seem to be spells given life.
With the idea of the Raumathari building in ground complexes with smokestacks to the surface.... I also wonder if they might not have been in conflict with the dark elves beneath their feet in Undrek'Thoz "the Segmented City" and/or if the Raumathari had any involvement with the local duergar in the area. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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nblanton
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2024 : 05:39:49
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Sleyvas, it seems that you and I are now the few left remaining here discussing these random topics. Granted, I got this scroll from looking more into the Old Empires and Imaskar for "clues" into the Dead Three and our other discussion about the origin of Xvim, but I digress.
That said, my day job is actually in nuclear power. Currently disassembling them, or at least watching other people do that work. However, I began my career as a naval operator and ultimately went to college for Nuclear Engineering and spent just under a decade as a commercial plant operator. So, I liked what you thought about with those Old Empires references. I'd also like, since I'm resurrecting a scroll that has been dormant for just a few days over a year, to bring the on-going discussion back to the original topic of why technology has seemingly faltered in the Realms.
So, to do so, I'm going to go to a place that has been hinted at, but not exactly addressed, which are the Inner Planes. The "planes of existence" using the old Planescape terminology. One thing that seemed like it was lacking in your theory of why these pressure engines were abandoned was something that was rooted in the cosmology of the Realms, at least in my opinion. Which is why I'd like to direct our attention to the layout of the Inner Planes using the old model from AD&D.
Steam, at least in the original model, and assuming that prime material plane physics is derived from the inner planes relationship to each other, isn't a mixture of water and fire, but water and positive energy. Perhaps water heats and boils in these physics, but "steam" in the real-world sense isn't necessarily the product of such heating. According to the model, there is simply no direct connection between water and fire. These are opposing entities.
Forcing this "unnatural" fire/water vapor pressure perhaps even causes a planar fault. Not to get too deep into physics, but the subatomic particle known as a "neutrino" was hypnotized (and later actually observed to exist) to account for a bit of "missing" energy from the resultant "stuff" that was emitted from various nuclear reactions. We know understand that not only are mass and energy conserved at all times in physics, but also the total spin of the various things that make up the better-known subatomic particles (and we're now getting to the point where nuclear engineering diverges into pure physics and I know longer fully understand it) but it was simply an allusion that perhaps creating a substance that should be a combination of an energy planar substance and an elemental planar substance instead by doing so via two opposing elemental planar forces "breaks" things. Possibly with dire consequences.
Furthermore, given that the cosmology exists in the world of the Realms as defined by the Inner Planes, I'd suggest that many real-world things simply could not exist simply because the physics is not the same. It feels like a somewhat elegant solution as to why some extremely obvious things don't work yet many do. The more complex the real-world physics necessary, especially when it would require the reality of the Bohr model of the atom or something such as nearly all modern chemistry, it simply falls apart, as everything is simply varying admixtures of the 4 prime elements and the 2 energy planes. In this light, of course chemical gunpowder wouldn't work, a "smoke" powder on the other hand would be a mixture of elemental fire and air yielding the paraelemental smoke.
In the case of the magic hot rock (which is a term used in the nuclear industry to cheekily refer to the reactor core) to make steam for the pressure engines, I honestly could see that the positive energy that should have been used causing an equal amount of negative energy (similar to that spin conservation thing I mentioned earlier) to have to be "created" to offset the operation. Basically, it would be a life draining device while in operation. Perhaps just as a nuclear reactor is required to be shielded to protect the operators, there is a negative energy "glow" around one of these while operating. Small stations may be able to simply make the boilers large enough that the range of this field is fully within the confines of the device and thus relative safe, but scaled up, and you have a machine that effectively drains the lifeforce out of any and all who approach it. I'm thinking of a power plant that is inhabited by the animated undead corpses of those artificers who initially started the machine, unable to leave as the very power that sustains their undeath is also the cause of it. Seems like a fun adventure basis. |
It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, if it goes against the obvious intent of the game.
Afterword, DMG pg 230. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2024 : 18:04:07
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From a real world perspective... somewhat funny... I'm a network engineer for a multi-state energy company. So, while I don't control the energy side of it, I control some of the backbone communications for that stuff at a wide variety of "power creation" locations. It doesn't give me a lot of insight into the real world physics mind you.
On the ideas that you bring up... I agree they are VERY interesting takes on the idea. Just because of the headaches it might cause, I wouldn't want to make things like "steam" as definitively ONLY the interaction of positive energy and water. I'd still like that "fire and water make steam", but I see it perfectly acceptable to say "positive energy and water ALSO make steam". Which I believe you agree with this statement as well in the above.
But if the everburning stone used "somehow" caused some kind of planar disruption, that's actually a very interesting idea. A sudden wave of negative energy that drained life, created undead from the fallen bodies OR their spirits, etc... as the form of destruction that was caused works quite well. I could also buy something which caused a sudden "sucking" of all water in the environs, causing an instantaneous dehydration of all bodies. I could also buy a mass explosion, release of lightning, etc... But ultimately, I like the idea that we link the major destruction to some kind of "meltdown".
I'll take this even further though since I've had a spot to think on it even more. I mentioned the idea of the Mulhorandi experimenting with steam engines and using everburning stones. We also have the athora in that region. Who is to say that Raumathari didn't know of this magical artifact... and who is to say that some of their plants and/or constructs weren't created using small bits taken from it. I imagine there are differences if someone were to make some kind of nuclear source using uranium versus plutonium versus thorium... and I wouldn't be surprised if the same might not be said for some "steam engine" using everburning stones, athora bits, or something else entirely.
EDIT: as another aside, whatever kind of "mass destruction" that got released, its probably best if Eltab is immune to that type of "energy". Champions of ruin has him resistant to acid, cold, and fire... but immune to electricity and poison. So, having some kind of mass electrical release with poisonous steam would seem to be the best fit (superheated steam may do mild fire and acid damage as well, which he'd probably resist the majority of every round, but others wouldn't). Poisonous steam might also explain away why noone has returned 0t the region, as the land may be poisoned.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 15 Jul 2024 18:46:15 |
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nblanton
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2024 : 01:47:15
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I guess the primary problem with either of our theories is that some of these pressure engines and their associated everburning stones are still operating and maintaining some Mulhorandi irrigation systems. The other issue that needs addressing, at least in real-world heat engines is the removal of thermodynamic entropy. Perhaps some large experiment is responsible for the sudden arrival of the more metaphysical (and later identified as a primoridial) Entropy in neighboring Chessenta. Perhaps the manifestation in House Karanok's torture chamber wasn't the first time this had happened but was actually due to a rogue worshipper of Thoth (or even some nutty Gondsman fiddling with some stolen tech) was actually responsible. Maybe the earlier manifestation in Mulhorand was "dealt with" in some way by the manifestations of the Mulhorandi deities and thus the decree was laid down to "cut that out."
That said, I'm still leaning on working more on the idea of the nature of the Inner Planes being the reason for some of the overall lack of technological growth.
If you want to somehow tie Eltab into this, which I'm not sure works given that he is pretty well documented, I'd suggest that perhaps some unwitting Thothite got ahold of some the demoncysts that were created during Eltab's original binding by the Nars and decided to put it to work similar to one of the everburning stones we've been discussing, but instead kills him or herself and the knowledge of it is lost with them. Perhaps this demon-engine is actually what is binding Eltab under Eltabbar in the late 1360s and Szass Tam's theory that the city itself being a binding sigil is actually completely incorrect, and the earthquakes and such that lead into the adventure in the Spellbound boxed set are somewhat off in reality.
I don't know, just spitballing some stuff, but we've got later sources that discuss the demoncysts having both massive lighting storms as well as being able to divert portions of the River Styx into or through them. I really don't want to think about what would happen if you had an abyssal hydrogen explosion from the electrolysis of water from the river Styx. I mean, if that doesn't sound like a crazy mess of chaotic and evil energy, I don't know what could be worse. |
It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, if it goes against the obvious intent of the game.
Afterword, DMG pg 230. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2024 : 05:04:32
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On the ideas that you bring up... I agree they are VERY interesting takes on the idea. Just because of the headaches it might cause, I wouldn't want to make things like "steam" as definitively ONLY the interaction of positive energy and water. I'd still like that "fire and water make steam", but I see it perfectly acceptable to say "positive energy and water ALSO make steam". Which I believe you agree with this statement as well in the above.
Um, quasielemental Steam is not too hot even in its native plane. As in, the main environmental danger other than poor visibility is dense steam being somewhat had to breathe. No heat damage except in rare pockets. Near the border with Ice (Hoarfrost) there’s cold damage, but the border with Positive (Raging Mists) merely glows.
Assuming you use well-developed Planescape lore and not Shroom Edition something.
quote:
But if the everburning stone used "somehow" caused some kind of planar disruption, that's actually a very interesting idea. A sudden wave of negative energy that drained life, created undead from the fallen bodies OR their spirits, etc...
That looks lolrandum. One thing if it was fire-related... then again, everburning stone appeared without special caveats.
quote:
I could also buy something which caused a sudden "sucking" of all water in the environs, causing an instantaneous dehydration of all bodies.
But then it would be unsuitable for steam works, no? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2024 : 00:47:52
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On the ideas that you bring up... I agree they are VERY interesting takes on the idea. Just because of the headaches it might cause, I wouldn't want to make things like "steam" as definitively ONLY the interaction of positive energy and water. I'd still like that "fire and water make steam", but I see it perfectly acceptable to say "positive energy and water ALSO make steam". Which I believe you agree with this statement as well in the above.
Um, quasielemental Steam is not too hot even in its native plane. As in, the main environmental danger other than poor visibility is dense steam being somewhat had to breathe. No heat damage except in rare pockets. Near the border with Ice (Hoarfrost) there’s cold damage, but the border with Positive (Raging Mists) merely glows.
Assuming you use well-developed Planescape lore and not Shroom Edition something.
quote:
But if the everburning stone used "somehow" caused some kind of planar disruption, that's actually a very interesting idea. A sudden wave of negative energy that drained life, created undead from the fallen bodies OR their spirits, etc...
That looks lolrandum. One thing if it was fire-related... then again, everburning stone appeared without special caveats.
quote:
I could also buy something which caused a sudden "sucking" of all water in the environs, causing an instantaneous dehydration of all bodies.
But then it would be unsuitable for steam works, no?
No, TBeholder, because one idea is that something breached the system and THEN the sucking of all water in the environs happens. In other words, only because something breaks does it have access to "outside the system that was running steam around" and then start drawing all available water to itself.
We're discussing multiple ideas though
On the quasi-elemental steam not doing damage, the original idea is that the everburning stones make the steam. Presumably quasi-elemental steam caused by positive energy and water is "different" than steam caused by fire and water. Much like "magical lightning" and "real lightning" work differently. If they're doing an everburning stone, and that produces fire "energy", then I'd expect the steam to be hot.
Another idea was that somehow "interacting"/"destroying" the everburning stone caused SOME KIND of planar disruption... well, we don't know how an everburning stone works. Destroying its ties to the plane of fire could easily result in some kind of fire backlash. CHANGING its ties from one plane to another (such as from fire to negative energy) could make an entirely different reaction.
Then, like I also said, they may have been experimenting with using pieces of the athora in this steam engine instead of everburning stones. Maybe they saw a production increase, etc... There's a lot of possibilities we could do with this. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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redking
Learned Scribe
141 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2024 : 02:29:38
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Here is a possibility: Gond knows everything there is to know about technology. He can tell you about nuclear engineering or quantum mechanics. He has drawn schematics for microchips and foundries. But it is all for naught.
Gond is in a metaphysical battle with every deity and cosmic being that relies upon, or supports the existence of magic. While magic exists, Gond's greatest inventions cannot. The end goal of Gond is to bring about the apocalypse, the end to magic, the end to the supernatural, and perhaps even the end to Gond himself (he isn't sure what would happen to him in a non magical universe). For this reason, Gond has quite a lot of enemies. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2024 : 16:48:19
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| The idea that magic cannot co-exist with technology is baseless. D&D isn't Arcanum. |
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redking
Learned Scribe
141 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2024 : 18:34:21
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The idea that magic cannot co-exist with technology is baseless. D&D isn't Arcanum.
I was thinking of Arcanum, actually. The medieval stasis is coming from somewhere. |
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nblanton
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2024 : 20:39:15
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The idea that magic cannot co-exist with technology is baseless. D&D isn't Arcanum.
GHotR has an aside discussing the Gondar looking to replace/supplant/eliminate magic. |
It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, if it goes against the obvious intent of the game.
Afterword, DMG pg 230. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2024 : 13:44:14
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| Was that in GHotR or in Ed Greenwood Presents : Elminster's Forgotten Realms? I know the product I mentioned does have a good presentation on Lantan. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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nblanton
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2024 : 03:15:48
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Was that in GHotR or in Ed Greenwood Presents : Elminster's Forgotten Realms? I know the product I mentioned does have a good presentation on Lantan.
Well, it seems I'm the one who misremembered something. It was actually from neither, although the source of the discussion was due to the Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster's Forgotten Realms, but the source I was remembering was just a reference to it along with some additional commentary by THO in an old scroll that was referenced in a scroll I started a few years ago.
The Secret Creed of Gond by Aldric http://candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19994
Gond, guns, and the Iron Throne by myself http://candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22227
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
I like your idea of "dead magic" materials... it fits very well with the somewhat darker, portrayal of the Gondsmen in the book "Elminster's Forgotten Realms".
In that book, there is a Secret Creed of the Gondsmen that indicates they have 3 overall goals:
1. Influence and Control all the Rulers of Faerun.
2. Undermine and Subsume the deity Waukeen.
3. Eliminate all Spellcasters that denigrate, hate, fear, or oppose Gond, Inventions, or Mechanics.
Until I read that book, I hadn't realized quite how ruthless and imperalistic the Gondsmen could be as an organization.
So, it was actually Cyrinishad who mentioned it in the scroll I started. It appears to have been in EGP:EFR, which I still haven't gotten a copy.
I'll also go ahead and add that THO quote from the other linked scroll, as I think it has some pertinence to this discussion.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Heh. I was WONDERING how long it would take someone to notice the spellwebs and realize how long Ed has been hinting at this.
But yes, Jeremy's comment has merit. The best way to view this is . . .
(and I'm paraphrasing an explanation Ed gave me, in what follows):
Gond and his highest priests mistrusting magic and trusting in devices and tools and processes that can be fashioned and used without any Art at all. But seeing that magic is "the big hammer" in the world, and they're just going to have to live with that, seeking to have influence through wealth and ruling or more often being "powers behind thrones" instead.
Until the Spellplague hits, they see it as proof positive how dangerous magic is and how much damage over-reliance on the Art can do to everyone, and in the power grab among the deities of the Sundering (with new Tablets of Fate to be written, reflecting the "new current" status, portfolios, and power levels of the deities), the same thing that caused all sorts of Chosen to be created by many gods, they see that it's time, or should be, to move actively against arcane spellcasters. NOT in an open "kill the dirty wizards!" confrontation, because that isn't Gond's way, but to resist and thwart and crowd out and hamper, because it's better for everyone (not just Gond and his faithful) if magic is rare and special and restricted.
So there you have it. And yes, that certainly does seem as if Gond has it in for Waukeen. (Not rape, but subsumption. As in, "conquer and wrest divine power. Perhaps wed or seduce to do so, if that's what it takes to both accomplish it and avoid other gods ganging up on Gond in reaction.") Again, this is based on Ed's hints.
He also took care to add:
The best thing about all of this is that mortals (yep, even gamers!) CAN'T know what's really going on with the gods (as even the gods themselves are often mistaken, spinning things, or outright lying), so this can be "true" or "utterly false" or somewhere in between in your Realms campaign, and so can how much Gond tolerates this move-against-magic approach within his clergy and lay followers. After all, his wisest course, given the great power of the Weave, is to sit back and say and do very little, so if Mystra ever musters her Chosen and/or servitors and/or wizards in general against Gondsmen/Gondar, Gond can say: "It was merely a heresy, never something I agreed with, but as I'm NOT the tyrant Bane or Shar is, it would be wrong of me to crush mortals who espouse it; mortals must grow in insight and mastery of the world with as little steering as we divine can give them, or they have achieved nothing and are not bettered by what they do."
So saith Ed. And I'll repost all of this on his thread, for scribes who haven't found this one yet.
love,
THO
Putting all this together, I think that while I misspoke regarding the source, it's pretty clear that there is at the least some animosity between Gond and magic.
While I was wrong in the source, I did dig through it trying to find what I was looking for, but instead did go through one of the short stories regarding the invention of the bombard by the Lantanna in the 13th century DR and El and Storm working out a method of infiltration, not to destroy the tech, but ensure that various wizards don't get away with stealing it or spiriting it away. Interestingly, Storm initially assumes that Mystra wishes them to kill the Gondsmen involved, but El replies that isn't the Lady's request to do so, Ed seems to have likewise thought that killing those responsible would have been the intuitive action...and one that it would seem that El and especially Storm would have even enjoyed killing the Gondsmen.
quote:
1246: The First Bombards Thunder, GHotR pg 127
“And every ruler will send mages to slaughter the Lantanna bombard-makers and crews—or capture them,” Storm agreed. “Do I slay them first?”
Elminster shook his head. “Mystra forbids it. I asked.” Storm smiled. “Of course,” she said, spreading her hands.
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It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, if it goes against the obvious intent of the game.
Afterword, DMG pg 230. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2024 : 18:04:18
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Looking at that "Gond, Guns, and Iron Throne" topic, some notes
I obviously was on that thread, but I had to review it again. I do like the concept of some materials "harvested" from magic dead areas being magic "resilient"/"resistant". I also like your statement that the people of Lantan are making the guns, but not necessarily ALL the smoke powder. This gives a really good reason for trade with spelljamming communities. I don't necessarily know that I'd use the Iron Throne as the main contact for this trade (though having them IN the trade works). It would make sense to me to have spelljammers trading to Nimbral, and then Nimbral merchants trading to Lantan.
I would also add into this that there might be trade internal to realmspace as well between the halflings of the first planet, Anadia, using poisonous powderpuff plants to make a cheaper but less reliable version of smokepowder that might work for "large volume" uses like bombards.
To add to this further, in that other thread I had been pointing out other materials and how Gondsmen might be interested in them. In talking about firearms... look at the information on Hizagkuur. When this material is forged and set it takes a WISH or something of equal power to alter its shape. Plus its touch on flesh causes electrical damage without having to be enchanted to do so. So, think on that a second and consider a gondsmen who decides to make ammunition sheathed in bits of Hizagkuur. You can then reuse this ammunition, because its fairly hard to destroy, AND it also does additional damage. To add to this, we're not talking "advanced smithing" in this instance. Now, from a DM'ing perspective, I'd probably rework that damage so that it only adds a point or two for something as small as a bullet, but it is the concept that we're talking about. Granted, they'd have to be careful about how they load the ammunition, but that's simple enough using something like tongs, gauntlets, or even gloves. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2024 : 04:41:55
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quote:
Originally posted by nblanton
Interestingly, Storm initially assumes that Mystra wishes them to kill the Gondsmen involved, but El replies that isn't the Lady's request to do so, Ed seems to have likewise thought that killing those responsible would have been the intuitive action...and one that it would seem that El and especially Storm would have even enjoyed killing the Gondsmen.
quote:
1246: The First Bombards Thunder, GHotR pg 127
�And every ruler will send mages to slaughter the Lantanna bombard-makers and crews�or capture them,� Storm agreed. �Do I slay them first?�
Elminster shook his head. �Mystra forbids it. I asked.� Storm smiled. �Of course,� she said, spreading her hands.
Does not mean this was the only course of action he asked about, however.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I don't necessarily know that I'd use the Iron Throne as the main contact for this trade (though having them IN the trade works).
They were aggressively trying to control weaponry market. Goods with few supply sources are much easier to control. Looks like a lucrative target.
But if you mess with Lantan, you mess with Gond. Which would end poorly for the Iron Throne. Sfena should figure it out.
Then again, Lantan itself does not export artillery to open market, so just avoid them and go for spelljamming import.
An attempt to control any spelljamming port as such will put Iron Throne against much more dangerous forces. Calimport is the least-troublesome option, and it's not all that good (and the ground route is too long).
This leaves space, that is running their own import route where they want it. Which is not too complicated, if they pick an area without irritable dragons. But requires a small spelljamming fleet (mostly to protect), so huge investments.
quote:
To add to this further, in that other thread I had been pointing out other materials and how Gondsmen might be interested in them. In talking about firearms... look at the information on Hizagkuur. When this material is forged and set it takes a WISH or something of equal power to alter its shape. Plus its touch on flesh causes electrical damage without having to be enchanted to do so.
The text does not say "flesh". It's ambiguous. Considering the way it's used, probably not, or it would be trivial to circumvent.
quote:
So, think on that a second and consider a gondsmen who decides to make ammunition sheathed in bits of Hizagkuur. You can then reuse this ammunition, because its fairly hard to destroy, AND it also does additional damage.
It's an exotic, thus very expensive material (smelting "is a secret known only to a very few senior dwarven smiths and elders"). Probably a lot more expensive than extra damage as such (and +1 vs crushing blow) can be worth.
Of course, a crossbow bolt or harpoon head that gets stuck and continues to electrocute could be useful against dragons and other suchlike critters. But so would be an enchanted version, perhaps with something like Lightning Serpent (Dragon #268).
Or variations of acid arrow, for that matter, especially considering it's a better choice against many fiends. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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How much does Gond know?
