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Originally posted by sleyvas


I also choose to believe that SOMETHING happened that made the pharaoh go "WHOA, let's stop this development". Perhaps one of these pressure engines had an effect similar to a nuclear explosion.... not AS bad mind you, but big enough to maybe destroy some major city.

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Originally posted by Ayrik

A common theme in fantasy novels of some decades ago was for magic-vs-science to be opposed and warring forces. Not passively incompatible, but actively destructive to their opposites.

The more a world begins to develop and understand science, the weaker their magic becomes.

The more a world begins to practice magic and the supernatural, the weaker their science becomes.

I can only speculate about what sorts of fantasy novels may have influenced Ed in the early years. It's possible he incorporated at least a little bit of this stylish-for-a-while old concept into Realmslore.
I'm sure that most of the current lot of WotC writers have no interest in "obsolete" fantasy literature and concepts. Whenever they present an old idea in a new way they claim a lot of credit and invention for it ... I honestly don't know if this is because they are just ignorant of the things they're ripping off, or if they're actively stealing things that are so old that "nobody" will notice.

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Originally posted by DoveArrow

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Originally posted by sleyvas


I also choose to believe that SOMETHING happened that made the pharaoh go "WHOA, let's stop this development". Perhaps one of these pressure engines had an effect similar to a nuclear explosion.... not AS bad mind you, but big enough to maybe destroy some major city.

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That sounds like it would make a great adventure hook. It's interesting to learn that the Mulhorandi people might have invented the steam engine.

I want to suggest, though, that it didn't have to be something potentially catastrophic like that. The Ming Dynasty started engaging in long distance sea exploration in the 1400s. That stoppped after the emperor died. There were cultural reasons, to be sure, but the main reasons were cost and border threats at home. Considering that Mulhorand and Unther have been long-time rivals, the pharaoh may have decided that pouring money into invading Unther was a higher financial priority than a giant dam.

OOC, does it say in Old Empires when the Mulhorandi were building these steam pressure engines?

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Originally posted by DoveArrow

quote:

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Originally posted by sleyvas


I also choose to believe that SOMETHING happened that made the pharaoh go "WHOA, let's stop this development". Perhaps one of these pressure engines had an effect similar to a nuclear explosion.... not AS bad mind you, but big enough to maybe destroy some major city.

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That sounds like it would make a great adventure hook. It's interesting to learn that the Mulhorandi people might have invented the steam engine.

I want to suggest, though, that it didn't have to be something potentially catastrophic like that. The Ming Dynasty started engaging in long distance sea exploration in the 1400s. That stoppped after the emperor died. There were cultural reasons, to be sure, but the main reasons were cost and border threats at home. Considering that Mulhorand and Unther have been long-time rivals, the pharaoh may have decided that pouring money into invading Unther was a higher financial priority than a giant dam.

OOC, does it say in Old Empires when the Mulhorandi were building these steam pressure engines?

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by DoveArrow

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Originally posted by sleyvas


I also choose to believe that SOMETHING happened that made the pharaoh go "WHOA, let's stop this development". Perhaps one of these pressure engines had an effect similar to a nuclear explosion.... not AS bad mind you, but big enough to maybe destroy some major city.

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That sounds like it would make a great adventure hook. It's interesting to learn that the Mulhorandi people might have invented the steam engine.

I want to suggest, though, that it didn't have to be something potentially catastrophic like that. The Ming Dynasty started engaging in long distance sea exploration in the 1400s. That stoppped after the emperor died. There were cultural reasons, to be sure, but the main reasons were cost and border threats at home. Considering that Mulhorand and Unther have been long-time rivals, the pharaoh may have decided that pouring money into invading Unther was a higher financial priority than a giant dam.

OOC, does it say in Old Empires when the Mulhorandi were building these steam pressure engines?

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I'm inclined to agree; steam engines can only get so big, and while a large detonation wouldn't be impossible, you'd more likely have a failure at a seam or valve. You'd be more likely to have a pressure vessel take off like a rocket than explode.

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Originally posted by TBeholder

As to the magicked-up steam engines: sure, heating spells or a Decanter of Endless Steam can make it a lot more practical than burning coal.
But then, if you want a quasi-perpetuum mobile, for vast majority of stationary applications (everything that does not use pressure or steam flow directly) it obviously falls short of a simple gravitic engine, that is flywheels stuck halfway into AoE of Reverse Gravity or Lessen Gravity - at safety, convenience (constant rotary force), maintenance cost and possibly even raw power.
Cost of really massive flywheels taking most of AoE volume is negligible compared to supports, axles, gears and bearings of the entire power train that's pretty much the same for any power source.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by TBeholder

As to the magicked-up steam engines: sure, heating spells or a Decanter of Endless Steam can make it a lot more practical than burning coal.
But then, if you want a quasi-perpetuum mobile, for vast majority of stationary applications (everything that does not use pressure or steam flow directly) it obviously falls short of a simple gravitic engine, that is flywheels stuck halfway into AoE of Reverse Gravity or Lessen Gravity - at safety, convenience (constant rotary force), maintenance cost and possibly even raw power.
Cost of really massive flywheels taking most of AoE volume is negligible compared to supports, axles, gears and bearings of the entire power train that's pretty much the same for any power source.

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Yep, those are good options. That being said, you'd have to keep casting that spell. The deal with these steam engines is that the stones stay hot for not years, not centuries, but millenia. They also appear to be relatively easy to make since their xp value for 2nd edition was next to nil.

Stone of Everburning: This stone is unremarkable, except that it radiates searing heat at all times. If a stone of everburning contacts exposed flesh, it inflicts 1d3 points of damage for each round of contact. The stone's most remarkable property is its longevity; some have stayed hot over 3,000 years, even when continuously immersed in water. These items are used in the steam engines of Mulhorand.
XP Value: 500

Inadvertently... I hadn't thought about it, but this does let us know that these stones have been around for MORE THAN 3000 years in the 1360's. Mulhorand was started in -2135, so the empire is ~3500 years old roughly. So some of these stones might have been around since the start of the empire and might still be working... and some of them may have been in use by the Imaskari before them. Now, of course, that doesn't mean pressure engines have been around that long, as the stones may have been used for other things (i.e. cooking anything that uses boiled water, warming a tent by putting one at the bottom of a pile of stones, cleaning laundry with steam, etc..)

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Originally posted by sleyvas

continuation of the above... for some reason some got cut off.

<SNIP>

EDIT: Kind of odd to note as well in the above... so an incarnation of Horus-Re takes over from the second Thoth incarnation at age 10. But he only holds the throne for 26 years and then steps aside for a younger incarnation of Horus-Re when he's 36 years old, for none other than a 14 year old incarnation of Horus-Re. There has GOT to be a story behind that. George, I'd love to hear why you did that. I mean, the guy seemingly gives up rulership and lives for another 21 years, so it's not like he was physically sick. Maybe its just something where someone was "more" royally blooded than the other.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Yep, those are good options. That being said, you'd have to keep casting that spell. The deal with these steam engines is that the stones stay hot for not years, not centuries, but millenia.

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They also appear to be relatively easy to make since their xp value for 2nd edition was next to nil.
[...]
XP Value: 500

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Originally posted by sleyvas

They also appear to be relatively easy to make since their xp value for 2nd edition was next to nil.

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Originally posted by George Krashos

Just to qualify that. The Archwizards of High Netheril used quasi-magic items and mythallars. The arcanists of Low Netheril did it old style. Which is why when you come across a "blast scepter", for example, or any permanent magic item - to attribute them to Karsus or Ioulaum or even Larloch for that matter (although the latter may have made permanent magic items after he became a lich), is just plain wrong.

-- George Krashos

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Originally posted by DoveArrow

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by TBeholder

As to the magicked-up steam engines: sure, heating spells or a Decanter of Endless Steam can make it a lot more practical than burning coal.
But then, if you want a quasi-perpetuum mobile, for vast majority of stationary applications (everything that does not use pressure or steam flow directly) it obviously falls short of a simple gravitic engine, that is flywheels stuck halfway into AoE of Reverse Gravity or Lessen Gravity - at safety, convenience (constant rotary force), maintenance cost and possibly even raw power.
Cost of really massive flywheels taking most of AoE volume is negligible compared to supports, axles, gears and bearings of the entire power train that's pretty much the same for any power source.

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Yep, those are good options. That being said, you'd have to keep casting that spell. The deal with these steam engines is that the stones stay hot for not years, not centuries, but millenia. They also appear to be relatively easy to make since their xp value for 2nd edition was next to nil.

Stone of Everburning: This stone is unremarkable, except that it radiates searing heat at all times. If a stone of everburning contacts exposed flesh, it inflicts 1d3 points of damage for each round of contact. The stone's most remarkable property is its longevity; some have stayed hot over 3,000 years, even when continuously immersed in water. These items are used in the steam engines of Mulhorand.
XP Value: 500

Inadvertently... I hadn't thought about it, but this does let us know that these stones have been around for MORE THAN 3000 years in the 1360's. Mulhorand was started in -2135, so the empire is ~3500 years old roughly. So some of these stones might have been around since the start of the empire and might still be working... and some of them may have been in use by the Imaskari before them. Now, of course, that doesn't mean pressure engines have been around that long, as the stones may have been used for other things (i.e. cooking anything that uses boiled water, warming a tent by putting one at the bottom of a pile of stones, cleaning laundry with steam, etc..)

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By the way, don't abandon your idea. Hold onto it. Like I said, I think it could make for a great adventure hook and I would love to play in a game that explored that theme.

My mind right now is more in how this particular issue could fit into the argument I've been making that there are a lot of cultural and economic factors that just happened to come together to fuel the real world's Industrial Revolution and how those factors don't seem to be present in Faerun (or at least not yet). If we're looking at it from a strictly fantasy adventure perspective, your idea is way cooler.

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Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red

The Dark Ages has always been a myth. Sure the aristocrats in Western Europe really felt the Fall of Rome as they lost their soft spots. And a couple others. Though a lot of folk did not even notice. Eastern Europe sure went on like normal. No one in the Americas knew. And very little of Asia, like China, did not notice much.

The idea that "The Realms has an anti tech apocalypse" every couple years is a bit silly. The "Fall of Netheirl" sure was not one. Sure all the flying cities fell out of the sky...and magic went away for a couple minutes. But nothing in the Fall sent out a planet wide wave of anti technology. A printing press anywhere in the world, as long as it was not under a falling enclave, would have been just fine. The same is true with the Time of Troubles. No wave of anti technology covered the planet for that summer. And the Spellplauge and Shundering did blow up a lot of stuff....but still did not target tech. Not to mention places like Waterdeep that have "plot armor"...

And some how....things like books survived. Book making was not lost, and that takes some technology.

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Originally posted by George Krashos

Just to qualify that. The Archwizards of High Netheril used quasi-magic items and mythallars. The arcanists of Low Netheril did it old style. Which is why when you come across a "blast scepter", for example, or any permanent magic item - to attribute them to Karsus or Ioulaum or even Larloch for that matter (although the latter may have made permanent magic items after he became a lich), is just plain wrong.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

I wonder if the steam itself might be able to be the killing medium.

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and the next moment four of the eight boilers exploded with a thunderous crash, and the whole forward third of the boat was hoisted toward the sky! The main part of the mass, with the chimneys, dropped upon the boat again, a mountain of riddled and chaotic rubbish—and then, after a little, fire broke out.
Many people were flung to considerable distances, and fell in the river; among these were Mr. Wood and my brother, and the carpenter. The carpenter was still stretched upon his mattress when he struck the water seventy-five feet from the boat. Brown, the pilot, and George Black, chief clerk, were never seen or heard of after the explosion. The barber's chair, with Captain Klinefelter in it and unhurt, was left with its back overhanging vacancy—everything forward of it, floor and all, had disappeared; and the stupefied barber, who was also unhurt, stood with one toe projecting over space, still stirring his lather unconsciously, and saying, not a word.
When George Ealer saw the chimneys plunging aloft in front of him, he knew what the matter was; so he muffled his face in the lapels of his coat, and pressed both hands there tightly to keep this protection in its place so that no steam could get to his nose or mouth. He had ample time to attend to these details while he was going up and returning. He presently landed on top of the unexploded boilers, forty feet below the former pilot-house, accompanied by his wheel and a rain of other stuff, and enveloped in a cloud of scalding steam. All of the many who breathed that steam, died; none escaped.
[...]
'The steamer “Gold Dust� exploded her boilers [...] Forty-seven persons were scalded and seventeen are missing. [...] Twenty-four of the injured were lying in Holcomb's dry-goods store at one time, where they received every attention before being removed to more comfortable places.'
A list of the names followed, whereby it appeared that of the seventeen dead, one was the barkeeper; and among the forty-seven wounded, were [...] we learned that none of these was severely hurt, except Mr. Gray. Letters received afterward confirmed this news, and said that Mr. Gray was improving and would get well. Later letters spoke less hopefully of his case; and finally came one announcing his death.

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There's 3 things that can kill everyone on board: Fire, flooding, and if one of our massive steam lines rupture.

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The guy yells again "STEAM LINE.... STEAM LINE RUPTURE".... silence again.
So at this point if that watertight door isn't watertight its about to get hot really quick..... hot enough to melt me like that scene in Indiana Jones. I'm pretty much dead.

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Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:

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Originally posted by George Krashos

Just to qualify that. The Archwizards of High Netheril used quasi-magic items and mythallars. The arcanists of Low Netheril did it old style. Which is why when you come across a "blast scepter", for example, or any permanent magic item - to attribute them to Karsus or Ioulaum or even Larloch for that matter (although the latter may have made permanent magic items after he became a lich), is just plain wrong.

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Why? Autonomous enchantments were the ones made to be used away from mythallars, as simple as this. So anyone would if it's useful on an excursion to other planes, orc war, etc. Thus we can expect disproportionate amounts in protection, combat and transportation categories, while vast majority of experimental and household utility items should have been quasimagic (with exception of those made in most of Low Netheril, yes).
Ioun stones obviously fall under "adventuring" items, even if numerous apprentices could churn out even more of them in quasimagic variant.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

I wonder if the steam itself might be able to be the killing medium.

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Seriously? There's no "if", it's a combination of low explosive and medium with huge heat capacity and hot enough to cook someone alive.
Try Mark Twain:

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and the next moment four of the eight boilers exploded with a thunderous crash, and the whole forward third of the boat was hoisted toward the sky! The main part of the mass, with the chimneys, dropped upon the boat again, a mountain of riddled and chaotic rubbish—and then, after a little, fire broke out.
Many people were flung to considerable distances, and fell in the river; among these were Mr. Wood and my brother, and the carpenter. The carpenter was still stretched upon his mattress when he struck the water seventy-five feet from the boat. Brown, the pilot, and George Black, chief clerk, were never seen or heard of after the explosion. The barber's chair, with Captain Klinefelter in it and unhurt, was left with its back overhanging vacancy—everything forward of it, floor and all, had disappeared; and the stupefied barber, who was also unhurt, stood with one toe projecting over space, still stirring his lather unconsciously, and saying, not a word.
When George Ealer saw the chimneys plunging aloft in front of him, he knew what the matter was; so he muffled his face in the lapels of his coat, and pressed both hands there tightly to keep this protection in its place so that no steam could get to his nose or mouth. He had ample time to attend to these details while he was going up and returning. He presently landed on top of the unexploded boilers, forty feet below the former pilot-house, accompanied by his wheel and a rain of other stuff, and enveloped in a cloud of scalding steam. All of the many who breathed that steam, died; none escaped.
[...]
'The steamer “Gold Dust� exploded her boilers [...] Forty-seven persons were scalded and seventeen are missing. [...] Twenty-four of the injured were lying in Holcomb's dry-goods store at one time, where they received every attention before being removed to more comfortable places.'
A list of the names followed, whereby it appeared that of the seventeen dead, one was the barkeeper; and among the forty-seven wounded, were [...] we learned that none of these was severely hurt, except Mr. Gray. Letters received afterward confirmed this news, and said that Mr. Gray was improving and would get well. Later letters spoke less hopefully of his case; and finally came one announcing his death.

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Or the submariners:

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There's 3 things that can kill everyone on board: Fire, flooding, and if one of our massive steam lines rupture.

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The guy yells again "STEAM LINE.... STEAM LINE RUPTURE".... silence again.
So at this point if that watertight door isn't watertight its about to get hot really quick..... hot enough to melt me like that scene in Indiana Jones. I'm pretty much dead.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Why not a "simpler" solution like an attempt at steam engine(s) powered by elementals, one or more of which escapes and runs amok? Maybe someone thought to put a water elemental and a fire elemental in the same steam engine, and of course things went south, with both escaping in a big explosion and then making it worse by battling each other and causing more property damage. (Or maybe there was an issue caused by conflicting binding magics, causing the two to merge, escape, and then destroy everything in sight)

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Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

The robots were able to function without magic, so Mystra could not suppress them like she would a golem.
computer science and robotics even ahead of real life modern technology
Gond is likely capable of building a Gundam/Battletech/Robotech/Megazord mecha as well as cyberpunk androids

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Originally posted by sleyvas

What I was kind of thinking is something along the lines of a massive explosion of steam that hits something unexpected. Maybe something that was being transported by the army, or perhaps something being transported by merchants/mulhorandi servants being escorted to safety.

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Bear in mind, my knowledge of chemistry is close to NIL (it was my worst science in college). But, I know that Chlorine gas is a killer.
I know that sodium itself is explosive and reacts violently with water.

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A rumor starts maybe amongst the populace that red wizards will start blowing up pressure engines all over, perhaps even furthered by the red wizards themselves.

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Originally posted by TBeholder

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Originally posted by sleyvas

What I was kind of thinking is something along the lines of a massive explosion of steam that hits something unexpected. Maybe something that was being transported by the army, or perhaps something being transported by merchants/mulhorandi servants being escorted to safety.

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As in, a relatively minor industrial accident at a wrong time and place that results in major logistics failure?
Overpressure is most destructive against enclosures, followed by walls.
So this possibility only needs a destroyed warehouse. Perhaps served by a steam crane, or near a pump. Boom, everything is shattered, scattered, and/or soaked. On top of this, everyone who could have a good look at what happened there is dead.
Or even simpler: all it takes to start fires in a dry wooden town are a bit of bad luck and a few light walls knocked over (whether by overpressure or large flying debris). Good time to have some water pumps. Bad time to have freshly exploded pumps.

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Bear in mind, my knowledge of chemistry is close to NIL (it was my worst science in college). But, I know that Chlorine gas is a killer.
I know that sodium itself is explosive and reacts violently with water.

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The main danger of Chlorine is simply turning into acid when dissolved in water. If this happens in lungs, high enough concentration can cause local burns. Once the lungs are too burned to work, obviously it does not matter how well buffering capacity of blood and other larger tissues can handle this much acid.

In the offered scenario of salt pyrolysis in contact with steam (assuming it even actually happens on non-negligible scale) the nearest water is steam, of course. And acid does not matter much, because the other product will immediately neutralize it anyway, so beyond the relatively small very hot area it's just back to salt and water.
Obviously, heat given back at recombination stage equals heat consumed by pyrolysis. It's a reversible reaction, not perpetuum mobile.
So all it can do is to raise pressure in exchange for absorbing some heat, temporarily. Of course, if pyrolysis happens, we are already talking seriously overheated steam. It's already comparable to low explosives if allowed to expand. A bump in overpressure from extra gases may be just enough to break more sturdy things, however.

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A rumor starts maybe amongst the populace that red wizards will start blowing up pressure engines all over, perhaps even furthered by the red wizards themselves.

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That could be pretty much enough.
All that's needed is this being less than vital and enough of annoying/embarrassing/expensive accidents.
For a real-world example, consider USSR in Moon race. One day a failed rocket Dresdened not merely some team of local technicians, but Marshal Nedelin with entourage, which made the incident too "big" to just sweep under the carpet. In itself that catastrophe still would not be capable of ending a project of such scope. But at this point it was the last straw. So the bosses winced, sighed and said something to the effect of "You know, screw this. Let's stop doubling down. We already have scored enough points on much more practical achievements".

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