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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Apr 2023 : 20:40:44
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So, I just went and saw the D&D movie yesterday, and my first thoughts were... how would you make the discrepancies that appear canon without ruining current things?
What am I talking about?
Forge as lord of neverwinter
Sofina as a red wizardess that is helping rule Neverwinter in disguise
Szass Tam as having conducted a ritual that turned his fellow Zulkirs into undead (on this last, I think the quickest fix is to say that these are the "zulkirs" that he put in place AFTER the rebellion, as we know that he had several undead zulkirs serving him).
Anyway, have to run right now elsewhere, but figured I'd start the topic and see what kind of discrepancies and/or fixes people might come up with. My view is less of complain about what doesn't match, but rather twist what doesn't match until it does. Is there a lens through which we can make it true without destroying things?
Mod edit: Updated the subject line to give warning about spoilers.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Apr 2023 12:13:37
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2023 : 23:16:34
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| How much spoilerific we can be? |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Karthak
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2023 : 00:26:06
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It's kinda difficult given 5e's reluctance to actually put an explicit year to most of the forgotten realms material and being pretty shallow/non-existant when it comes to details about changes in locations, events and groups that were active less than a decade previously in 4e.
For Forge serving as lord of neverwinter and Sofina helping rule in the background.
The events of Dragon Heist involve a vault full of Waterdeep's gold coins that Dagult Neverember had basically embezzled prior to him getting kicked out of the Open Lord position and forced to only rule over Neverwinter, the red wizards had a goal of taking over the city in the 4e era with Valindra Shadowmantle working with branches of the Cult of the Dragon and Asmodeus worshippers about 10-20 years before the movie, tying Sofina in as Valindra's replacement as Valindra was known to have travelled to Chult around 1490 to investigate the events happening in Tomb of Annihilation.
For Szass Tam conducting a ritual to make a fresh set of Undead Zulkirs
The Adventurer's League adventures have at least one living Zulkir featured as a prominent NPC, although it doesn't seem like they have nearly as much political power as the one was basically serving as an ambassador to one of the cities in the Moonsea area at Szass's order. While I'm not aware of what happened in more recent adventures, it seems like the one Zulkir turned against Szass Tam at some point. It wouldn't be too much of a leap to assume that Szass could've got fed up with independent Zulkirs and made the latest batch of Zulkirs into loyal undead to prevent another zulkir from getting ideas of replacing Szass. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2023 : 03:06:34
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I mean, isn't this all canon?
Also, the movie kind of annoyed me with how much a reset button was pushed. It should have had the balls to actually kill the Lord of Neverwinter.
But yes, I feel most of this movie fits very much into the canon. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 11 Apr 2023 03:19:36 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2023 : 03:12:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I mean, isn't this all canon?
Sure, why not? Going by modern WOTC philosophy: "Canon is whatever you wish until and unless we decide otherwise." |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2023 : 03:20:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I mean, isn't this all canon?
Sure, why not? Going by modern WOTC philosophy: "Canon is whatever you wish until and unless we decide otherwise."
I'm confused by this as I don't see anything egregious about the changes in the movie. Maybe it's the fact that I spent 20 years looking to the novels for changes to Realms canon but it seems a fairly light bunch of changes and developments in the metaplot and the first since the Sundering.
I guess I figured it should be embraced by fans of the setting as new material rather than rejected. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2023 : 03:25:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I mean, isn't this all canon?
Sure, why not? Going by modern WOTC philosophy: "Canon is whatever you wish until and unless we decide otherwise."
I'm confused by this as I don't see anything egregious about the changes in the movie. Maybe it's the fact that I spent 20 years looking to the novels for changes to Realms canon but it seems a fairly light bunch of changes and developments in the metaplot and the first since the Sundering.
I guess I figured it should be embraced by fans of the setting as new material rather than rejected.
I meant that their official stance on canon is fairly indeterminate; they're both trying to avoid the hard work required to make any new continuity match up with previous material and appealing to everyone's interpretation of canonicity (which isn't necessarily desirable). |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2023 : 03:31:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Karthak
It's kinda difficult given 5e's reluctance to actually put an explicit year to most of the forgotten realms material and being pretty shallow/non-existant when it comes to details about changes in locations, events and groups that were active less than a decade previously in 4e.
For Forge serving as lord of neverwinter and Sofina helping rule in the background.
The events of Dragon Heist involve a vault full of Waterdeep's gold coins that Dagult Neverember had basically embezzled prior to him getting kicked out of the Open Lord position and forced to only rule over Neverwinter, the red wizards had a goal of taking over the city in the 4e era with Valindra Shadowmantle working with branches of the Cult of the Dragon and Asmodeus worshippers about 10-20 years before the movie, tying Sofina in as Valindra's replacement as Valindra was known to have travelled to Chult around 1490 to investigate the events happening in Tomb of Annihilation.
For Szass Tam conducting a ritual to make a fresh set of Undead Zulkirs
The Adventurer's League adventures have at least one living Zulkir featured as a prominent NPC, although it doesn't seem like they have nearly as much political power as the one was basically serving as an ambassador to one of the cities in the Moonsea area at Szass's order. While I'm not aware of what happened in more recent adventures, it seems like the one Zulkir turned against Szass Tam at some point. It wouldn't be too much of a leap to assume that Szass could've got fed up with independent Zulkirs and made the latest batch of Zulkirs into loyal undead to prevent another zulkir from getting ideas of replacing Szass.
Bear in mind with some of these things.... they may be impermanent. So, for instance, the "Szass Tam did a ritual that turned zulkirs into undead". That may have been 10 years or more after the spellplague... or nearly a hundred years before "modern" Thay. Some of those zulkirs may have died permanently and been replaced. If we take the DM's guild product that Ed helped with as what I'm going to term "tentative canon"... as in canon until something better or more "definitively where the company is taking it"... and I say why not... then at least some of these zulkirs were indeed replaced (and given they were Tam's puppets, I would expect others to rise and challenge them... and I see Tam allowing it, as he does believe at least somewhat in a meritocracy).
So, in that product, it even states what I said above ... that after having had undead zulkirs, he now realizes it may have been a mistake.
Szass seeks to establish a council of zulkirs that is simultaneously loyal to Thay and himself and has come to realize that having undead zulkirs often leads to those beings either losing themselves in schemes and plots of their own creation, or simply becoming echo chambers for his own desires (as is more common). He has, in recent years, sought to expand the criteria for becoming a zulkir largely due his realization that populating these roles with undead, including liches, only results in creating an echo chamber for his own plots and machinations. To promote Thay, Szass Tam must identify and recruit arcanists that are loyal to him, devoted to Thay, and wholly dedicated to the support and defense of the nation—all while being possessing free will and remaining clear of the corruption
of the outside world or personal plots.
To note, in THAT product "Thay, Land of Red Wizards" it states that Lauzoril survives and that Tam does not recognize anyone in that seat (so the guy in Mulmaster may be recognized by other enchanters as their Zulkir, but not by Tam.... which may be why he's not living in Thay). Given that I was doing something with Lauzoril and Lallara Mediocros surviving the events of the novel, I am fine with this option.
Apparently Tam also gave up the title of zulkir of necromancy to become a tyrant to his fellow zulkirs, as that product calls Valindra Shadowmantle the zulkir of necromancy since the events of Chult. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Karthak
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2023 : 04:26:57
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The impression I got was that the guy in Mulmaster was recognised by Tam as being a Zulkir and working towards Tam's goal of taking over the city, at least prior to being outed as an enemy of Szass.
Given that "Thay, Land of Red Wizards" released quite a while after the adventures detailing Thay invading Mulmaster where the Zulkir was known to have been planning to betray Szass, it'd explain why he refuses to recognise anyone as Zulkir of Enchanters after that, given that both former Zulkirs of that school were actively hostile to him and possess abilities that are quite irritating to deal with.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2023 : 06:27:47
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quote:
How much spoilerific we can be?
I suspect that most of Candlekeep's regular scribes have probably seen this movie. Since we're all avid D&D fans in some way or another.
But casual visitors sent by the search engines in the present and future might not have seen the movie yet. Perhaps it might be best to put a spoiler warning in the thread title. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2023 : 12:11:24
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I don't see that the Forge/Sofina thing is an issue. We don't know the exact year of the movie, but we do know from the movie that (spoiler!) Sofina made Dagult sick and helped Forge take over. Depending on the timing of the movie, this could easily happen after the most recent printed material.
But it's also kind of a moot point, from WotC's standpoint on canon. Emphasis mine:
quote:
Our studio treats D&D in much the same way that Marvel Studios treats its properties. The current edition of the D&D roleplaying game has its own canon, as does every other expression of D&D. For example, what is canonical in fifth edition is not necessarily canonical in a novel, video game, movie, or comic book, and vice versa. This is true not only for lore but art as well.
This is from WotC themselves: https://dnd.wizards.com/news/dnd-canon
(Please note that I'm not interested in debating the merits of WotC's stance; I personally disagree with it, but we've had that discussion elsewhere.) |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Apr 2023 12:41:16 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2023 : 12:12:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
How much spoilerific we can be?
I suspect that most of Candlekeep's regular scribes have probably seen this movie. Since we're all avid D&D fans in some way or another.
But casual visitors sent by the search engines in the present and future might not have seen the movie yet. Perhaps it might be best to put a spoiler warning in the thread title.
Agreed. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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HighOne
Learned Scribe
216 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2023 : 16:11:15
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| I haven't seen the movie, but it's possible that the tie-in novels explain some of the discrepancies. Has anyone read them? |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2023 : 16:34:14
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| I would just put the movie in its own separate continuity from the game source books, personally. I did love when the sourcebooks and novels agreed and we had editors and lore cops policing the brand, but those days are long, long gone and even then was very far from perfect sadly. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
955 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2023 : 23:04:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
"My lord, is it canon?"
"I will make it canon."
I like the Darth Sidious reference. Too bad making it canon only applies until the next contradictory product. The approach to canon smacks of nihilism. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2023 : 13:55:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I mean, isn't this all canon?
Sure, why not? Going by modern WOTC philosophy: "Canon is whatever you wish until and unless we decide otherwise."
I'm confused by this as I don't see anything egregious about the changes in the movie. Maybe it's the fact that I spent 20 years looking to the novels for changes to Realms canon but it seems a fairly light bunch of changes and developments in the metaplot and the first since the Sundering.
I guess I figured it should be embraced by fans of the setting as new material rather than rejected.
I'm pretty much the same way... the changes weren't huge, though things like Lord Neverember being disabled forcing someone else to step in.... I'd like to hear more of a view of WHAT happened to him. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2023 : 14:54:20
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quote:
Originally posted by HighOne
I haven't seen the movie, but it's possible that the tie-in novels explain some of the discrepancies. Has anyone read them?
Good point... and no... I don't even know if they're released or even what they're about. Do they duplicate the movie storyline or expand it in other directions for backstory / afterstory? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2023 : 15:15:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Ed Greenwood pointed out one of the deaths was against canon.
https://youtu.be/lEZH1wwj1oU
Did he... he pointed out that Dmitra Flass was listed in the cast list. For those that get the names mixed up, she was the "First Princess of Thay"/tharchioness of Eltabbar who during the civil war took over as Zulkir of Illusion when Mythrellan (notedly a misspelling of Mythrell'aa ... almost like something happened making people "forget" her proper name....) "died". Then Dmitra died following the spellplague. Do we know WHERE she appeared in the film for certainty?
That does make me wonder... do we HAVE a cast list we can pore over?
EDIT: here's a cast list apparently
https://m.imdb.com/title/tt2906216/fullcredits/cast
to note, I don't see the other rebel zulkirs listed at all. So, I guess we can say we do have more fuel for "that ritual wasn't cast with the normal zulkirs we know about around and was probably after the civil war started".
2nd EDIT: someone else indicates that she's the red wizard giving the speech in the flashback... which yes, I DEFINITELY agree with Ed in that instance then. The only way that could have happened was if Tam raised her / undeaded her / cloned her or something else. It might be worth playing with "how DO we make that true then" as well. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 13 Apr 2023 15:30:27 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2023 : 15:24:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Karthak
The impression I got was that the guy in Mulmaster was recognised by Tam as being a Zulkir and working towards Tam's goal of taking over the city, at least prior to being outed as an enemy of Szass.
Given that "Thay, Land of Red Wizards" released quite a while after the adventures detailing Thay invading Mulmaster where the Zulkir was known to have been planning to betray Szass, it'd explain why he refuses to recognise anyone as Zulkir of Enchanters after that, given that both former Zulkirs of that school were actively hostile to him and possess abilities that are quite irritating to deal with.
That's another good way to twist it... he had a guy... that guy as well turned on him... now he's simply following Thayan rules and not filling it as long as that person lives, but refusing to let him affect policy by effectively daring him to show up at council meetings. In essence he says things like "Oh, we have a Zulkir of Enchantment... I haven't seen him at the meetings". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2023 : 21:46:11
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quote:
I'm pretty much the same way... the changes weren't huge, though things like Lord Neverember being disabled forcing someone else to step in.... I'd like to hear more of a view of WHAT happened to him.
That really irritated me. They should have killed him for the movie rather than put him in a magical coma. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2023 : 21:17:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
I'm pretty much the same way... the changes weren't huge, though things like Lord Neverember being disabled forcing someone else to step in.... I'd like to hear more of a view of WHAT happened to him.
That really irritated me. They should have killed him for the movie rather than put him in a magical coma.
The simpler and quicker fix would have been to simply use another city, but they didn't. I get the not wanting to replace Lord Neverember... that being said, I can't say I'm up to date on Neverwinter since 4e (and especially since there's a video game that's also made changes). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Vinzor Burrow
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2023 : 18:24:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
I'm pretty much the same way... the changes weren't huge, though things like Lord Neverember being disabled forcing someone else to step in.... I'd like to hear more of a view of WHAT happened to him.
That really irritated me. They should have killed him for the movie rather than put him in a magical coma.
I’d also like to know more about the succession process, and if there’s going to be any contingencies for future problems. |
Signed,
Vinzor Burrow of Chavyondat |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2023 : 03:38:18
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| One idea that does pop in my head.... they were building a dread ring near Neverwinter, so was the attempt by Sofina meant to draw enough energy to fuel another attempt by Tam. I probably should get the 4e book on Neverwinter, as I hear it was pretty good, and I'm really not up on the changes |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2023 : 18:22:19
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Szass Tam as having conducted a ritual that turned his fellow Zulkirs into undead (on this last, I think the quickest fix is to say that these are the "zulkirs" that he put in place AFTER the rebellion, as we know that he had several undead zulkirs serving him).
Don't forget that we only got the story from they eyes of someone who was a child when these events happened. So even though it doesn't fit the events in the Haunted Lands trilogy it doesn't contradict the lore, just shows that most common folk doesn't know what really happened and everyone pierced this or that together to make his own story.
I would be very surprised if there where many people besides those directly involved, really knowing what happened. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2023 : 02:49:31
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Szass Tam as having conducted a ritual that turned his fellow Zulkirs into undead (on this last, I think the quickest fix is to say that these are the "zulkirs" that he put in place AFTER the rebellion, as we know that he had several undead zulkirs serving him).
Don't forget that we only got the story from they eyes of someone who was a child when these events happened. So even though it doesn't fit the events in the Haunted Lands trilogy it doesn't contradict the lore, just shows that most common folk doesn't know what really happened and everyone pierced this or that together to make his own story.
I would be very surprised if there where many people besides those directly involved, really knowing what happened.
very good point as well, though I'm inclined to give some credibility to the story (even possibly working through ideas for things like how "Dmitra Flass" may have been there <i.e. simulacrum seems one viable solution>... wish I could rewatch and rewind the movie... want the DVD now). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2023 : 15:00:17
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My biggest issue with the Realmslore was actually the placement of Dolblunde. At first they seem to have placed it near the Kryptgarden Forest, which, while wrong, isn't awful. (You can explain a lot of underground geography mistakes with long Underdark tunnels.) But then apparently Dolblunde was next to the ocean? Perhaps near the Red Rocks? I was very confused, as the movie didn't seem internally consistent.
For the setting, IMNSHO, Barrhindlun, while super obscure, would have been a better name than Dolblunde. (See FR11 - Dwarves Deep, page 58.) It's relatively close to Neverwinter, relatively close to the volcanic activity of Mount Hotenow, and yet partially under the Sea of Swords.
It also would have avoided the need to explain what happened to Daurgothoth before Themberchaud moved in. |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
Edited by - ericlboyd on 19 Apr 2023 15:02:25 |
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Giant Snake
Seeker
80 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2023 : 15:16:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Ed Greenwood pointed out one of the deaths was against canon.
https://youtu.be/lEZH1wwj1oU
It was all in good fun and maybe too many jokes for mainstream appeal purposes, but I like how he is good natured and positive with how the flim makes a good and exciting story that can fit in Realms while being enjoyable by an outside audience. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2023 : 14:34:42
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Szass Tam as having conducted a ritual that turned his fellow Zulkirs into undead (on this last, I think the quickest fix is to say that these are the "zulkirs" that he put in place AFTER the rebellion, as we know that he had several undead zulkirs serving him).
I wouldn't take that too seriously. We didn't get an objective historians or narrators account on these events, but the story from someone who recalls what happened, when he was a child.
It would be very strange, if it was common knowledge what really happened in Thay over 100 years ago when Tam sized control. |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 05 Sep 2023 14:35:21 |
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Making the Lore of the Movie Canon (SPOILERS!)
