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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1619 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2021 :  18:17:40  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/dungeons-dragons-canon-roleplaying-game-novels/

All FR novels, video games, comics, aren't considered none canon, they just had press release.

RIP Forgotten Realms 1987-2021

I look forward to the day whoever was involved in this gets the firing they so richly deserves.

I'm thinking of writing a petition not to not decanonize the novels. Any suggestions welcome.

Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2436 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2021 :  18:28:08  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Haven't they said that a few years ago? I mean, they are giving this treatment to all D&D, not just FR.

And I think you left out the part where they said that every sourcebook they published before 2014 is also non-canonical as well,

A petition to not decanonize the novels is silly when the novel line was been dead for years now, BTW.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 22 Jul 2021 18:30:55
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HighOne
Learned Scribe

214 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2021 :  18:39:41  Show Profile Send HighOne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A petition isn't going to accomplish anything. Wizards has been operating under this policy for at least seven years now, since the start of 5E.

Also, it's not just novels; it's all pre-5E material, including sourcebooks. The only official canonical material right now is 5E products.

And I'm not even sure this is a bad thing. In fact, I believe it has helped bring in a lot of new players. It makes the game a lot more welcoming, as people can jump right into DMing without feeling like they have to consume 40+ years' worth of material first. As far as I'm concerned, this statement is just Wizards' way of telling players they have permission to run the game the way they want and not to worry that their lore might contradict something from a 30-year-old magazine they've never read.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6347 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2021 :  18:44:08  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This tactic worked out really well for Disney


They ditched everything old, made a ton of money on new films and then realised that while everyone watched the new films they also hated them.

So Disney have gone back to making series in the old eras that make sense and that people like.


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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2021 :  19:16:50  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah this stance is stupid, if kinda not that uncommon (ie aside from Disney Star Wars, for example al the DC comic reboots - to the point of it being a meme by this point).

In general, it seems the issue is part, as noted by HighOne in anting to increase accesability. Thought WizBro also wantng the Realms, other settings and D&D be more "malleable", and "easier to write in" is also a big part of the motivation.

Still, I don't think it's good idea, especially seeing large parts of Toril, or even Faerun (and it's history), are woefully underdeveloped in 5E.

Edited by - Baltas on 22 Jul 2021 19:21:40
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2436 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2021 :  19:20:10  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne

And I'm not even sure this is a bad thing. In fact, I believe it has helped bring in a lot of new players. It makes the game a lot more welcoming, as people can jump right into DMing without feeling like they have to consume 40+ years' worth of material first. As far as I'm concerned, this statement is just Wizards' way of telling players they have permission to run the game the way they want and not to worry that their lore might contradict something from a 30-year-old magazine they've never read.



I do the same thing, and I know people who does the same thing for years. Even if you follow canon to the letter, your game becomes "non-canon" as soon as your players interact with the game world.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2021 :  19:22:45  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can understand this. History is hard and boring and has no effect on today. Like, does it really matter that the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor or that the US bought Louisiana from Amazon?

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents

Edited by - TheIriaeban on 22 Jul 2021 19:23:46
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1619 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2021 :  19:34:08  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

This tactic worked out really well for Disney


They ditched everything old, made a ton of money on new films and then realised that while everyone watched the new films they also hated them.

So Disney have gone back to making series in the old eras that make sense and that people like.



They money made on the movies diminished hard as they kept maling movies star wars fans hated. The movies would have made money anyway, betraying the fans added nothing to the profit margin.

I'm not even a Star Wars fan, but was still disguisted bybwhat Kathleen Kennedy did.



Edited by - Gyor on 22 Jul 2021 19:35:45
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1619 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2021 :  19:37:27  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

I can understand this. History is hard and boring and has no effect on today. Like, does it really matter that the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor or that the US bought Louisiana from Amazon?



They wish to erase those who built FR and made it great and popular for generations, rewrite its history and steal credit for its popularity.
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TKU
Learned Scribe

USA
158 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2021 :  20:22:36  Show Profile Send TKU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That is disappointing, but it tracks with The design philosophy WoTC has been showcasing in terms of lore and settings of late.
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2436 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2021 :  20:24:02  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

I can understand this. History is hard and boring and has no effect on today. Like, does it really matter that the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor or that the US bought Louisiana from Amazon?



Well, we aren't talking about real history here. We are talking about a fictitious history of a D&D world, that according to the game creators, I can change whatever stuff I want.

I mean, I know a lot of people saying "the Spellplague didn't happen in my Realms." Are they also "murdering the Realms" as well?

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36773 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2021 :  20:32:48  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HighOne

A petition isn't going to accomplish anything. Wizards has been operating under this policy for at least seven years now, since the start of 5E.

Also, it's not just novels; it's all pre-5E material, including sourcebooks. The only official canonical material right now is 5E products.

And I'm not even sure this is a bad thing. In fact, I believe it has helped bring in a lot of new players. It makes the game a lot more welcoming, as people can jump right into DMing without feeling like they have to consume 40+ years' worth of material first. As far as I'm concerned, this statement is just Wizards' way of telling players they have permission to run the game the way they want and not to worry that their lore might contradict something from a 30-year-old magazine they've never read.



It's not just a 5E thing; they've been growing less and less concerned with canon since 3E came out -- look at the number of changes that were "always this way, but no one knew about it!"

This has nothing to do with new players. This is "We, the 'designers' don't want to bother with anything that came before, so we're just sweeping it all under the rug. Also, this allows us to shut up all the long-time fans that have been complaining about us not sticking to stuff we personally don't like or didn't care to research."

If it was really about new players feeling daunted by the amount of prior lore, a simple series of gazetteers would have been sufficient to catch people up, *and* it would have given them something else to sell.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 22 Jul 2021 20:37:09
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36773 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2021 :  20:35:53  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I find this news depressing. I mean, sure, it's been their all-but-openly-stated stance for a while, now, but now they're finally admitting that they don't see any value in continuity and that they just want to treat the setting as a salad bar.

As someone who was attracted to the setting by the fact it was both growing and maintaining continuity as it grew, this is a real shot to the gut.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36773 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2021 :  20:54:12  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am, henceforth, going to refer to what WotC is publishing as the Sundered Realms -- because it's certainly not the Forgotten Realms I started reading about, circa 1990ish.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1619 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2021 :  22:01:15  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I am, henceforth, going to refer to what WotC is publishing as the Sundered Realms -- because it's certainly not the Forgotten Realms I started reading about, circa 1990ish.



Some folks call it the Remembered Realms because they seem to forget about almost everything outside the swordcoast.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6347 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2021 :  22:15:06  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It wont last, much like the new star wars, i reckon people like the revival of something iconic, they like the nice shiny new look, but ultimately they will find it shallow and nonsensical in time.

People recognise quality, they will eventually stop paying for garbage. Already WoTC are starting to contradict their own 5e lore, stuff like that ruins the immersion and these fictional settings are all about immersion.

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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1619 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2021 :  22:16:39  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I find this news depressing. I mean, sure, it's been their all-but-openly-stated stance for a while, now, but now they're finally admitting that they don't see any value in continuity and that they just want to treat the setting as a salad bar.

As someone who was attracted to the setting by the fact it was both growing and maintaining continuity as it grew, this is a real shot to the gut.



Exactly.
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2021 :  22:24:07  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess I should thank them for this clarification. Cures me of any desire to buy any of the new stuff they have coming out.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

656 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2021 :  23:30:25  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eberron has always done this and I think it works wonderfully.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1619 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2021 :  00:34:52  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

Eberron has always done this and I think it works wonderfully.



Eberron's novel line failed, FR's lasted decades until some moron at WotC decided to externalize the novel and largely failed.
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe

499 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2021 :  01:03:56  Show Profile  Visit Gelcur's Homepage Send Gelcur a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I guess I won't be buying anymore 5E gaming books. Up to this point I had bought all the FR adventures. It is one thing to ignore the past or to make some tweaks or to fill in gaps weirdly, to purposely just throw everything out is insulting. Star Wars did the same thing and I haven't watched or bought any new Star Wars products since. It is my understanding I am not missing much anyway.

I'll try to support our authors and designers by buying their DMsGuild stuff.

The party come to a town befallen by hysteria

Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2021 :  01:13:44  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, they just spelled out loud what they were already doing. Yes, that includes previous sourcebooks.

If anything, I'm puzzled why they decided to spell it out loud. Which benefits do they get from doing so?

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 23 Jul 2021 01:18:14
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1619 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2021 :  01:19:22  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

It wont last, much like the new star wars, i reckon people like the revival of something iconic, they like the nice shiny new look, but ultimately they will find it shallow and nonsensical in time.

People recognise quality, they will eventually stop paying for garbage. Already WoTC are starting to contradict their own 5e lore, stuff like that ruins the immersion and these fictional settings are all about immersion.



I look forward to seeing this mess cleaned up someday, when they are done with the Spellplague 2.0

Edited by - Gyor on 23 Jul 2021 01:21:33
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11670 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2021 :  01:28:05  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
sadly, every edition of the game has done this. This is just escalating. In 1st edition, red wizards wouldn't sell magic items of anything but the most menial power to any other people. In third edition, they had trade enclaves to sell magic items all over the world. Now, granted, 4th edition.... that one was a big F-U to us fans in how much they changed things. This edition, for all its issues, its been better. I just wish they'd put out more novels again... but then again, I STILL have a pile of novels that I haven't read yet.... and I want to go back and read some, but I'm now pursuing non-FR stuff with the witcher series, etc.... As I see it, most of the early designers have moved on, and plotlines have been dropped all over the place for years. At this point, make the realms yours, and breathe new life into it in a way that YOU want.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe

499 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2021 :  01:35:03  Show Profile  Visit Gelcur's Homepage Send Gelcur a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It is times like this I wish I was stinking rich. Just buy the damn license and hire Ed and any of the old designers/authors who wanted to fix this mess. Use a board like this not for complaints but for ideas as to what people want. Release gaming books and novels that all of us here would be proud to own multiple copies of.

The party come to a town befallen by hysteria

Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good.
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe

467 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2021 :  02:55:39  Show Profile  Visit PattPlays's Homepage Send PattPlays a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Magic Origins has joined the chat room:

This is a standard for them since like 2015. Also, it just makes sense in the "you do the work" philosophy that 5e design has for DM's in 5e. And well, just look at the rage of demons. Despite being a fifth edition adventure, the events start as early as 1486 or earlier in the novels and Drizzt kills the big bad demon. If you play in 5e using the scag, the Out of the Abyss adventure takes place post-second sundering and you can kill the big bad demon yourself. No project lead in the game design teams in DND5e will ever say "no, Drizzt kills Demogorgon, not the player characters.". The books can make money as vaguely related fiction novels that can sell on bookshelves, and their sales people never have to talk to the DND and card game sales people.
Similarly, 5e modules fly off shelves based on art and also just for existing unchallenged in local game stores- many of which exist almost solely to sell their other gaming ip's products. The novels have absolutely nothing to do with the gaming modules consumer-wise, and haven't for the entire history of 5e. What exactly do you want them to do and how much money are you going to try to convince them to lose in wasting time integrating different branches of the company? For the sole reason of, what, taking a harsher stance on canon for the campaign setting they have been selling for 6 years as "default fantasy"?

:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:


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T_P_T

Edited by - PattPlays on 23 Jul 2021 03:00:13
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

656 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2021 :  05:09:59  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

Eberron has always done this and I think it works wonderfully.



Eberron's novel line failed, FR's lasted decades until some moron at WotC decided to externalize the novel and largely failed.



Did Eberron’s novel line fail? It stopped getting books when everyone else did.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
3736 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2021 :  06:37:09  Show Profile Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-I mean, it's not like there are any novels anymore anyway.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3280 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2021 :  09:29:12  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Damn, WotC announced this the day before Ed's birthday!

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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keftiu
Senior Scribe

656 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2021 :  11:50:34  Show Profile Send keftiu a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What do you think the odds are on this being them clearing the slate before committing to a new Realms book, finally? I honestly can’t decide which way feels more likely.

4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36773 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2021 :  14:39:51  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu

What do you think the odds are on this being them clearing the slate before committing to a new Realms book, finally? I honestly can’t decide which way feels more likely.



If you mean a new campaign setting book, I think this makes it more unlikely, for the same reasons they've not already given us one: they want complete freedom for themselves.

Ed wrote the Realms as a complete 7-course banquet: every serving went with and complemented every other serving.

The current 'designers' want a salad bar: they want to take only the bits they themselves like, and ignore the rest.

Writing a campaign book takes more work than they're willing to put in, and it boxes them in -- they can't arbitrarily decide that Bahb Silvernoun is a Calishite wizard, if they'd previously stated that he's a fighter and a Cormyrean nobleman. Retconning something is way easier than explaining how something changed.

Plus, WotC has claimed for years that source material sells, but it doesn't sell as well as generic adventures.

So their options are to put in real effort that they'll see as limiting themselves, for less of a return, or continue to cherry-pick whatever catches their eye and ignore/trample on the rest, for a larger return.

They've now admitted that they don't care what came before, but it's really an admission that they're just going to keep doing what's easiest for them.

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