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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2022 : 20:41:40
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Going through my catalogue again, organising every reference by subject.
As always when you read stuff through again, certain things leap out at you from the page.
For instance, why are the D'tarig greedy and cowardly, with no land sense when they "might be" descended from dwarves of Tethyamar and humans. I wonder if they could perhaps be descended from Duergar instead or were dwarves that were cursed.
There seems to be an awful concentration of Shadow and Shar related stuff in Windsong Tower in Myth Drannor in the years before its fall - Dark Diviners, Book of the Black, Leaves of One Night, Darcassan and his Shadow Projections.
How did the Book of the Black end up in the ruins of Synod, the only thing i can think of is Shar Cormrael took it there, perhaps she was trying to get Augathra to translate is since it became indecipherable (thanks to Shar's curse).
The Thaalud are known as the Children of Thaal and the Netherese Archwizard that created them is now known as the Keeper of Thaal. So who or what is Thaal. Also the Tomb of the Thaalud is filled with floating castles, i wonder if they are smaller enclaves (the not city sized ones) collected by the Thaalud.
The Chalice of Amaunator, specifically designed to neutralise Shadow Weave magic. Almost as though the clergy of Shar and Amaunator struggled during the time of Netheril.
And then the Quess Ar Teranthvar, being transformed by the Shadovar to stop it from transmuting back into scrolls. But supposedly if they succeeded it would result in the end of Mystra. I wonder if the Shadovar werent trying to transform that set of Nether Scrolls into a Shadow Weave Node, it would certainly be the most powerful Shadow Weave Node in existence if the plan was successful.
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2022 : 12:47:54
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The Book of the Black at least, is strongly implied to have been copied, so there are at least two versions of it. One of those copies likely remained with Augathra, in her tomb at Synod, while the other was the one found in the Fane of Shadows by the Dark Diviners, that was later stolen by thieves. Shar Cormrael couldn't have taken it to Synod, because she left for Synod after the thieves had stolen both their copy of the Book of the Black and the only copy of the Leaves of One Night [Anauroch, The Empire of Shade, page 4].
I don't know if the Chalice of Amaunator was specifically designed to neutralize Shadow Weave magic. The item description says that it is the bane of undead and other creatures of darkness. I think that the fact it's so effective against Shadow Weave magic is coincidental. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2022 : 16:24:17
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Cool little thread. Where are the sources for these tidbits? I want to help but don’t know where to even start. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Karthak
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2023 : 22:43:26
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There's two answers that I've found, I'd probably combine them as the Elder Rune being a separate group run by some of the liches to uncover Elder Runes, such as the ones that Halaster possesses.
Elder Rune - THO 28/8/14 The "Elder Rune" is what the most senior members of the Twisted Rune call themselves, meaning "we who possess the most self-discipline and actually stick to very long term goals, rather than indulging in some of the excesses and short-term, 'grabby' pursuits of more junior members."
From Ed's twitter
Q: In your Forging the Realms article on the beholder game of the Vellurith, one of the stated goals is "Subvert the Elder Rune or Larloch and his liches". Is that supposed to be the Twisted Rune, or is this a distinct sinister lich cabal?
A: A distinct cabal. And their name proclaims what they're interested in, which is a rune that subverts other runes and so can open wards, unseal bindings, and open or close gates/portals. Oh, and congratulations: you've stumbled on one of the secrets of the Realms! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2023 : 07:43:47
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Ed has this to say about Elder Runes here at the 'Keep years ago:
“Elder runes” is a collective modern-day Realms term, probably coined by an unknown human sage at least a thousand years ago (because it’s about that long ago that the term gradually seeps into common usage among students and workers of magic), referring to a growing (as they’re “rediscovered”) collection of magical symbols (probably NOT of common origins) used by long-ago workers of magic.
More specifically, we know that some Netherese (and a handful of their scattered descendants, after the fall of that realm) used them, and also that before that, dwarves of Besilmer employed some of what we now call ‘elder runes, ’ and may well have merely augmented and expanded upon runes in use earlier among the Stout Folk. The names now used for many of the known elder runes hint that elves also used them, and adventurers know that certain shamans among the goblinkin (orcs, goblins, and especially hobgoblins) draw them to this day.
There are tales that certain ‘sensitive’ beings can feel the nearby presence of any elder rune, and that runes of the same sort are somehow linked (no matter how distant one drawing of Angras may be from another, teleportation of a person, item, or just a verbal message [emitted aloud but in some cases also stored in the rune until it is next touched, or even after] between them is possible). Although the runes have acquired ‘wayfarer’ meanings (noting the presence of shelter, for instance), it’s clear they formerly also had other meanings and purposes.
Most of them possessed now-exhausted magical powers, a few still store these magics, and almost all of them, if whole (i.e. the drawn glyph isn’t broken by damage to the drawing or the surface it’s graven upon), can be ‘recharged’ with magic by those who know how.
And there’s the rub: elder runes have magical powers only if imbued with such by many now-forgotten spells that can be cast upon them at any time. Most of the beings still ‘alive’ who know such magics are either dragons or undead (usually liches). It’s certain that some dragons and baelnorn deliberately recharge elder runes often to bolster defenses around lairs, caches, hoards, and ruined dwellings.
In Realmsplay, I’ve never detailed those spells, but used the runes as (usually) harmless ‘dungeon decoration,’ but sometimes as waiting magical traps that unleash just about any spell effect I wanted them to, to enhance whatever unfolding adventure the Knights were currently having. (In short, they were one more of my DM’s ‘bag of tricks,’ useful because their mere presence and numbers could help to ‘steer’ the Knights into or away from a particular doorway or tomb, by hinting that a place was well-guarded or important.) As I recall, THO can impart a particularly fond memory of one elder rune that, ahem, entertained her.
It should be noted that the line up of elder runes was first set out in the FR Adventures hardcover and I believe one of the 5E books (Storm King's Thunder?) uses them also.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 07 Jan 2023 07:44:05 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2023 : 09:11:06
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Interesting, so we could be potentially looking at two separate things here.
I'm sure in previous posts, Ed has said that Rune Magic does not use the Weave.
And yet, Netherese using Elder Runes and the fact that they can be linked across vast distances and created by a standard set of spells (presumably weave spells), implies that the Elder Runes referred to by human scholars is in fact Weave based magic.
So assuming the dwarves of Besilmer did in fact introduce Rune Magic into the Weave based off of the original dwarven "Elder Runes" and this then spread to Netherese and the rest of Faerun, and has become the basis for mage sigils and runes of power and perhaps in fact forms part of the arcane alphabet.
So is the Elder Rune (the cabal within the twisted rune) pursuing these weave based runes, or the more original Elder Runes of the dwarves and giants from long long ago. (i'm going to assume the latter). Maybe one of the Elder Rune has this ability to perceive Elder Runes, they certainly have liches and dragons in abundance among the Twisted Rune.
I'm sure i recall dwarves near Mulhorand many thousands of years ago destroying their entire realm with a super powerful elder rune. That kind of magic i'm assuming is the super ancient dwarven Elder Rune.
I always viewed the Elder (dwarf and giant) Elder Runes to be artefact level magic, a unique rune that when used could cause climactic changes. Kind of like a dwarven version of elven High Magic. This one would not use the Weave, which is why its soo much more powerful, but also it is super dangerous and probably required several master runesmiths to sacrifice themselves to make one.
Just a thought or two. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2023 : 19:59:14
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quote: Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Interesting, so we could be potentially looking at two separate things here.
I'm sure in previous posts, Ed has said that Rune Magic does not use the Weave.
I'd like to see the exact source on that, but either way... But this "use the Weave" is at very least 3 things: 1. Are the internal rules it follows set by the Weave or external to it? 2. Is it accessed to begin with via the Weave? This may have more than one answer sometimes. 3. Is it powered by the Weave in the final effect?
For example, consider spells allowing meaningful access to raw magic for the casters who normally don't have it - but themselves are still spells working just like all other spells of their type. Per good ol' AD&D2 Tome of Magic, some wild magic spells do just this. Then there are mythals and Mavin's Worldweave - spell-fields that presumably need the Weave for relevant spells to be cast, but their effects seem to be essentially "reach through the Weave to the things underlying it".
quote: And yet, Netherese using Elder Runes and the fact that they can be linked across vast distances and created by a standard set of spells (presumably weave spells), implies that the Elder Runes referred to by human scholars is in fact Weave based magic.
Rune magic is likely to have "no" in (1), which is enough for e.g. the Windwalker plot to make simple sense where the Weave (and thus Mystra) is concerned.
As to (2), consider something close to runes: savant glyphs (Secrets of the Sunless Seas). The same set of glyphs can be created by priests, wizards and psionicists alike, with no difference in the effect. There are limits that apply to everyone: 1 glyph/day created and as many glyph elements (which range from 1 for "simple glyphs" to 4 for "complex master glyphs") maintained at any time, i.e. they are all linked to the caster even if non-interactive. The "simple glyphs" include glyph of warding effects, but with such properties they are something different. The spells used to create them in Realmspace usually are Weave magic, of course (there's no reason a Shadow Weave user could not learn this), but those glyphs themselves do not look like Weave magic. They are subject to dispel... but then, so are Shadow Weave effects. They may be related to psionic seals if anything. But rather than versatile state machine that takes months to build even in the most basic version, it's simple and "permanent until discharged", so fairly quick to create and mostly with harmful effects. Edit: more juicy details on the glyphs. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 09 Jan 2023 00:34:47 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2023 : 19:37:39
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-The 2e Book of Artifacts had random Realmslore thrown in. Mostly Hordelands/Kara-Tur stuff involving artifacts (duh) and the history of their creation and impact and whatever. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn Vol. III- Spells of the Elves Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 08 Jan 2023 19:37:57 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2023 : 00:48:46
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quote: Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Liriel crafting a rune and carving it on that tree which is then supposed to affect multiple beings across the planet sounds to me like liriel added a new rune into the weave by carving it into a weave node, thereby making it available to anyone (if they know about it).
My point is, Mystra has minions, raw power, sovereignty over the Weave. She can use those in any combination: for example, a designated Magister can disable a given spell, everywhere in Realmspace at once, just like that. And she wants to fix some part of the Weave. But if a given repair requires poking into "external devices", it's not just a matter of expenses or risks/benefits anymore. The knobs that need to be twisted are outside her sandbox, and there are hoops that need jumping on the way to these, according to some rules not defined within the Weave. Thus some eligible hoop-jumpers are required. Since rune magic was used this way, and there were indeed hoops that had to be jumped long before contact with certain extraplanar vegetation, this incident supports the hypothesis of rune magic being not entirely defined by/within the Weave. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 09 Jan 2023 01:08:44 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2023 : 22:31:48
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Regarding "special runes" .... I'd throw out here that the "geoglyphs" of the geomancers of Zakhara may be another example of such "Elder Runes". Granted, in 2e lore "they had to combine wizard and cleric magic".... that could easily be interpreted as "they had to understand the underpinnings between multiple types of magic". For that matter, some might tie these Elder runes to the power of Elder powers, and arguably Grumbar may be one of those.
On Liriel carving a rune into Yggdrasil's Child.... that tree is a seed of Yggdrasil. I personally consider Yggdrasil as much more "widespread" than Mystra's weave and probably it's own kind of nascent "weave", and Mystra's "weave" may use its "anchors" in a way similar to a cell tower hosting multiple cellular carriers..... which as I read TBeholder's I believe kind of matches his concepts. So, it wouldn't necessarily imply that these runes "use the weave" so much as "they can use the points where Yggdrasil and the weave overlap to invade the weave". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 09 Jan 2023 22:40:54 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2023 : 07:19:19
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I'm pretty sure the way the weave works, and the novels appear to support this (Dangerous Games most recently and surprisingly), is that various places and objects (and even people) actually exude raw magic in varying degrees.
Some of these things pump out huge amounts of raw magic, meteorites being the biggest sources (as shown by the annasherion).
The Weave exists because the keepers of the weave (initially the baetith, then the Church of Mystryl and Mystra) have gone around and turned these raw magic sources into weave nodes (the exact process has never been detailed).
So what we have is a large number (in the thousands) of raw magic emitters, that are modified to change that dangerous raw magic into the much more stable weave, which today exists as a series of overlapping emitters that cover almost all of Toril.
Because these weave nodes overlap, and because they are all interlinked, any spells stored in the weave (the keepers of the weave literally have to add the spell into a weave node) is available to all users of the weave via a series of standardised components.
So yggdrasil's child, whatever it is, has been converted to a weave node at some point in the past, and when liriel carved the rune onto the tree she literally added a new rune / spell to the weave that will presumably become available to all weave users as soon as the Church of Mystra discovers its existence and spreads that knowledge across Toril.
Now, the weave has beings living in it, i propose that each weave node has a guardian sentience that defends it (it would be foolish to leave something so valuable unguarded).
Also, it seems to me that people can be weave nodes as well (the chosen as one group), and the Mystra is constantly creating more weave nodes. I reckon each magister that transforms into an artefact or a living spell, etc, all become weave nodes as well.
Just my thoughts on what the weave actually is, and how all this stuff works. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2023 : 15:43:18
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quote: Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I'm pretty sure the way the weave works, and the novels appear to support this (Dangerous Games most recently and surprisingly), is that various places and objects (and even people) actually exude raw magic in varying degrees.
Some of these things pump out huge amounts of raw magic, meteorites being the biggest sources (as shown by the annasherion).
The Weave exists because the keepers of the weave (initially the baetith, then the Church of Mystryl and Mystra) have gone around and turned these raw magic sources into weave nodes (the exact process has never been detailed).
So what we have is a large number (in the thousands) of raw magic emitters, that are modified to change that dangerous raw magic into the much more stable weave, which today exists as a series of overlapping emitters that cover almost all of Toril.
Because these weave nodes overlap, and because they are all interlinked, any spells stored in the weave (the keepers of the weave literally have to add the spell into a weave node) is available to all users of the weave via a series of standardised components.
So yggdrasil's child, whatever it is, has been converted to a weave node at some point in the past, and when liriel carved the rune onto the tree she literally added a new rune / spell to the weave that will presumably become available to all weave users as soon as the Church of Mystra discovers its existence and spreads that knowledge across Toril.
Now, the weave has beings living in it, i propose that each weave node has a guardian sentience that defends it (it would be foolish to leave something so valuable unguarded).
Also, it seems to me that people can be weave nodes as well (the chosen as one group), and the Mystra is constantly creating more weave nodes. I reckon each magister that transforms into an artefact or a living spell, etc, all become weave nodes as well.
Just my thoughts on what the weave actually is, and how all this stuff works.
Maybe this comes from being a network engineer and wanting to picture the "logic" of how this works... I'm going to throw out a concept here and some folks may not get what I'm leading to because they don't have this kind of background..... I'm not saying your wrong mind you, I'm trying to specify HOW they might be converted.
It is probably best to view what happens to these nodes as not "they are converted to the weave".... but rather.... a virtual interface is added to them. This virtual interface begins acting as a weave node and "routes" magical energy across a "tunnel"/"ley line"/"Mesh" that it creates to other weave nodes (i.e. other things with virtual interfaces). When a spellcaster develops the ability to wield weave magic, they are essentially adding themselves to this "mesh", much like a PC being added to a local wireless network, and as they proceed outside the range of one weave node, they transition to another one. So, just like your local router in your house may advertise multiple wireless networks using different authentication options, these nodes might actually advertise for multiple different "weaves" at the same time. Mystra's "weave nodes" are simply "wireless networks" with only a few different SSID's and passwords, and when someone loses the ability to access the weave they've just "started using the wrong passwords to hook to the wireless, because somehow their saved password got changed".
Now, this concept has at least one flaw... the "shadow weave" ... which supposedly existed anywhere where Mystra's weave didn't. My answer to this is quite simple... people didn't understand what the shadow weave was, and Shar was pushing this misunderstanding to attain more power. It was just another virtual route forwarding table composed of "shadow weave nodes" that was being extended across the mesh that is created by magic itself.
Hopefully I wasn't too vague here and what I just said makes sense to most folks. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2023 : 19:07:34
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Now THAT I could buy.... that they were simply assuming that swapping weave nodes to shadow weave nodes would comprise "anywhere the weave isn't". Then it could be said that it was an intrinsic misunderstanding of the extent of magic beyond the weave by Shar's worshippers. In my previous example, that would simply be changing the "wireless SSID" to be one used by the "shadow weave" and creating a "tunnel"/"ley line" to another shadow weave node. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2023 : 20:03:36
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On a completely unrelated note, I found in the Anauroch sourcebook that Anauroch once referred only to the High Ice.
quote: The name Anauroch once meant just what is now called the High Ice: a rift-scarred glacial ice sheet, that gave way (as one travelled south) to rocky uplands where many wild sheep roamed, and thence to thick forests where stags reigned and dryads dwelt. Those uplands, now scoured to bare rock, are known today as the Plain of Standing Stones.
This coupled with the song from Giantcraft means that Ranauroch was likely the giant kingdom noted in Portals of the Frozen Wastes (of which Chosein was just one city located in the High Ice).
Notably the singer of the song was a son of Ottar (sire of all frost giants and likely the ruler of the frost giant kingdom of Ostoria), and the hero depicted in the ballad was a grandson of Ottar, whose father levelled Ranauroch. So it sounds like Ranauroch was destroyed by some dynastic strife).
And then the hero of the ballad slays a super big dragon and drowns in a river of the dragons blood, which in my interpretation sounds like he was slain by the dragon's children. I'd venture he struggled with the dragons of Hoarfaern and was slain.
Further to that, given the qorrashi (ice genies) involvement in Ranauroch (according to the portals of the frozen wastes), then the Bedine likely travelled to Anauroch using a portal created by the giants that linked to Zakhara
Just some random thoughts. |
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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 10 Jan 2023 20:07:28 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2023 : 21:28:43
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Anyone ever noticed that the language of the Bedine is Uloushinn, while the language of the northern bits of Faerun is Ulou, the Rengarth the Ulutiu, the arthraen or suren nar (i never figured out which one spoke Ulou).
Now its entirely possible the Bedine picked up bits of Ulou from the Low Netherese remnants (although i'm fairly certain they actually merged with High Netherese survivors only).
However, the Bedine originate from Zakhara, and the Land of Fate uses a lot of similar names for things (keffiyeh, jambiya, etc). I realise these are real world names, but as it stands the indicators are that the Ulou people actually originate in Zakhara.
Again this points to the giants of Ostoria having a portal (or portals) linking their empire to Zakhara (where they got Qorasshi genies from), and it must have been through these malfunctioning and really ancient portals, that the Ulou people arrived in northern Faerun.
Just a thought, but in summary, Ulou people arrive in northern Faerun from Zakhara through ancient portals of Ostoria, then split into Ice Hunters, Rengarth, Ulutiuns, Nar (Arthraen or Suren, or both), etc. |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2023 : 16:06:29
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So this is totally a conflict of when source material came out and changes to the languages between editions (a whole topic on its own). The naming of Uloushinn in the 2E Anauroch supplement and my language article precedes the linkage of the Bedine to Zakhara. We now know from various sources, but Races of Faerun is in front of me, that the Bedine come through a portal after the fall of Netheril in -339 DR (long after Ostoria) and intermingled with some of the Netherese survivors (mostly low Netherese), but still spoke Zakhara's Midani.
I would reframe the the origins of Uloushinn, so it is actually a dialect of Midani that incorporates a fair number of Low Ulutim (and other Ulou/Netherese language bits) into it and that scholars saw the similarities to the other Ulou languages without realizing the stronger connection to Midani. |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2023 : 16:08:55
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So this is totally a conflict of when source material came out and changes to the languages between editions (a whole topic on its own, though I will say the wiki has generally done a good job of threading the needle on the languages of the various editions). The naming of Uloushinn in the 2E Anauroch supplement and my language article in Dragon (that established the various language groups) precedes the linkage of the Bedine to Zakhara. We now know from various sources, but Races of Faerun is in front of me, that the Bedine come through a portal after the fall of Netheril in -339 DR (long after Ostoria) and intermingled with some of the Netherese survivors (mostly low Netherese), but still spoke Zakhara's Midani.
I would reframe the the origins of Uloushinn, so it is actually a dialect of Midani that incorporates a fair number of Low Ulutim (and other Ulou/Netherese language bits) into it and that scholars saw the similarities to the other Ulou languages without realizing the stronger connection to Midani. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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