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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jan 2023 : 14:57:22
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Hello.
As of late, I have been contemplating a justification for an especially tragic undead foe: the banshee. Back in AD&D 2e, the groaning spirits were "the spirit of an evil female elf – a very rare thing indeed" (whether their nature was changed in 4e or 5e is beyond me). What would you consider the minimum threshold of evil required to form a banshee? Is a single wicked deed enough to mar their essence? Does this damnation of undeath require consistently malevolent behavior over a long period? Must they be born rotten?
What came to my mind was a murder committed during a fit of rage birthed from deep-seated jealousy. Would you consider this act alone adequate?
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Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2023 : 15:23:02
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I'd say you need to punch it up a bit and involve self-inflicted tragedy.
For example... Two elfgirls, they're best friends. They meet an elfdude, and both of them fall hard for the guy. But he's only got eyes for elfgirl 1, and doesn't even notice elfgirl 2.
Elfgirl 2 tries to be happy and supportive for her friend, but she's jealous, and it's getting harder and harder for her to be around the couple.
One day, elfgirl 1 and elfgirl 2 are out walking. Elfgirl 1 is talking about how she's going to marry the elfdude, and they're going to try every position in the elven Kama Sutra, and make lots of beautiful elven babies... And elfgirl 2 snaps. She can't take it anymore. She attacks elfgirl 1, thinking of nothing more than removing a rival.
Elfdude hears the fighting and runs up to intervene. He throws himself between them, just in time to catch a fatal attack meant for his love.
Elfgirl 2 has killed the man she loved and attempted to murder her best friend. She realizes this is some seriously bad mojo, and leaves the area. Maybe she kills herself, or maybe finds some place to hide from the world and simply starves to death whilst wallowing in her grief and shame. And then she pops back up as a banshee. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2023 : 15:52:42
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Here's what they came up with in 5e, which actually does kind of go into a reason for their formation. It's less that they're just "evil", but that they used their beauty to corrupt and control others.
Divine Wrath. Banshees are the undead remnants of elves who, blessed with great beauty, failed to use their gift to bring joy to the world. Instead, they used their beauty to corrupt and control others. Elves afflicted by the banshee's curse experience no gladness, feeling only distress in the presence of the living. As the curse takes its toll, their minds and bodies decay, until death completes their transformation into undead monsters. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 10 Jan 2023 15:56:57 |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2023 : 20:12:55
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As with most undead, I think the bar is very high. It's not just that someone is evil, it's that someone is evil evil. And often more then that, it must also offer a huge dash of tragedy.
So like the worst of Shakespeare, Poe, King, and Terinteno all mixed together. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2023 : 08:02:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd say you need to punch it up a bit and involve self-inflicted tragedy.
For example... Two elfgirls, they're best friends. They meet an elfdude, and both of them fall hard for the guy. But he's only got eyes for elfgirl 1, and doesn't even notice elfgirl 2.
Elfgirl 2 tries to be happy and supportive for her friend, but she's jealous, and it's getting harder and harder for her to be around the couple.
One day, elfgirl 1 and elfgirl 2 are out walking. Elfgirl 1 is talking about how she's going to marry the elfdude, and they're going to try every position in the elven Kama Sutra, and make lots of beautiful elven babies... And elfgirl 2 snaps. She can't take it anymore. She attacks elfgirl 1, thinking of nothing more than removing a rival.
Elfdude hears the fighting and runs up to intervene. He throws himself between them, just in time to catch a fatal attack meant for his love.
Elfgirl 2 has killed the man she loved and attempted to murder her best friend. She realizes this is some seriously bad mojo, and leaves the area. Maybe she kills herself, or maybe finds some place to hide from the world and simply starves to death whilst wallowing in her grief and shame. And then she pops back up as a banshee.
A suicide element did come up, but I was on the fence as to whether an action carried out while in the grasp of temporary madness was sufficient. Thank you for your input, Wooly.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Here's what they came up with in 5e, which actually does kind of go into a reason for their formation. It's less that they're just "evil", but that they used their beauty to corrupt and control others.
Divine Wrath. Banshees are the undead remnants of elves who, blessed with great beauty, failed to use their gift to bring joy to the world. Instead, they used their beauty to corrupt and control others. Elves afflicted by the banshee's curse experience no gladness, feeling only distress in the presence of the living. As the curse takes its toll, their minds and bodies decay, until death completes their transformation into undead monsters.
It's kind of like a Disney story, huh?
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
As with most undead, I think the bar is very high. It's not just that someone is evil, it's that someone is evil evil. And often more then that, it must also offer a huge dash of tragedy.
So like the worst of Shakespeare, Poe, King, and Terinteno all mixed together.
There is logic in that. Furthermore, I think the developer(s) had a broad racial grouping in mind. Judging by the original text ("a very rare thing indeed"), there was likely a distinction drawn between normal elves and the drow; otherwise, a usual dark elven city of the Underdark would be a hotbed of banshees. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2023 : 16:04:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd say you need to punch it up a bit and involve self-inflicted tragedy.
For example... Two elfgirls, they're best friends. They meet an elfdude, and both of them fall hard for the guy. But he's only got eyes for elfgirl 1, and doesn't even notice elfgirl 2.
Elfgirl 2 tries to be happy and supportive for her friend, but she's jealous, and it's getting harder and harder for her to be around the couple.
One day, elfgirl 1 and elfgirl 2 are out walking. Elfgirl 1 is talking about how she's going to marry the elfdude, and they're going to try every position in the elven Kama Sutra, and make lots of beautiful elven babies... And elfgirl 2 snaps. She can't take it anymore. She attacks elfgirl 1, thinking of nothing more than removing a rival.
Elfdude hears the fighting and runs up to intervene. He throws himself between them, just in time to catch a fatal attack meant for his love.
Elfgirl 2 has killed the man she loved and attempted to murder her best friend. She realizes this is some seriously bad mojo, and leaves the area. Maybe she kills herself, or maybe finds some place to hide from the world and simply starves to death whilst wallowing in her grief and shame. And then she pops back up as a banshee.
A suicide element did come up, but I was on the fence as to whether an action carried out while in the grasp of temporary madness was sufficient. Thank you for your input, Wooly.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Here's what they came up with in 5e, which actually does kind of go into a reason for their formation. It's less that they're just "evil", but that they used their beauty to corrupt and control others.
Divine Wrath. Banshees are the undead remnants of elves who, blessed with great beauty, failed to use their gift to bring joy to the world. Instead, they used their beauty to corrupt and control others. Elves afflicted by the banshee's curse experience no gladness, feeling only distress in the presence of the living. As the curse takes its toll, their minds and bodies decay, until death completes their transformation into undead monsters.
It's kind of like a Disney story, huh?
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
As with most undead, I think the bar is very high. It's not just that someone is evil, it's that someone is evil evil. And often more then that, it must also offer a huge dash of tragedy.
So like the worst of Shakespeare, Poe, King, and Terinteno all mixed together.
There is logic in that. Furthermore, I think the developer(s) had a broad racial grouping in mind. Judging by the original text ("a very rare thing indeed"), there was likely a distinction drawn between normal elves and the drow; otherwise, a usual dark elven city of the Underdark would be a hotbed of banshees.
Just to note, cities with a prominence of Kiaransalee worshippers ARE a hotbed of banshees. Given how long Kiaransalee has theoretically been around (she does date back to the early years of the elves mind you), it might be that her clergy have some involvement with their initial formation. One of her titles is even "the Vengeful Banshee" according to Demihuman Deities. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 11 Jan 2023 16:36:08 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2023 : 19:13:12
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just to note, cities with a prominence of Kiaransalee worshippers ARE a hotbed of banshees. Given how long Kiaransalee has theoretically been around (she does date back to the early years of the elves mind you), it might be that her clergy have some involvement with their initial formation. One of her titles is even "the Vengeful Banshee" according to Demihuman Deities.
There's likely a ritual or something, specific to the faith, that allows them to create banshees -- or makes the odds of a spontaneous creation more likely. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2023 : 00:28:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just to note, cities with a prominence of Kiaransalee worshippers ARE a hotbed of banshees. Given how long Kiaransalee has theoretically been around (she does date back to the early years of the elves mind you), it might be that her clergy have some involvement with their initial formation. One of her titles is even "the Vengeful Banshee" according to Demihuman Deities.
There's likely a ritual or something, specific to the faith, that allows them to create banshees -- or makes the odds of a spontaneous creation more likely.
Probably three babies instead of one.
Anyhow, the Underdark is apparently noisier than I was lead to believe; perhaps it ought to be called "Underdark and Overlyloud". |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2023 : 12:50:54
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| Does killing an evil sentient/sapient undead "free their soul" or are they still doomed to a hellish afterlife? |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2023 : 12:30:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Does killing an evil sentient/sapient undead "free their soul" or are they still doomed to a hellish afterlife?
I’d like to think it spells “oblivion” for them. Otherwise there is no reason why an undead soul would ever want to be released from their suffering. “Out of the frying pan and into the fire” wouldn’t make much sense for them but finding some kind of peace in nonexistence would at least be a relief.
I know it’s not canonical but I don’t ever remember this being addressed. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2023 : 17:31:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Does killing an evil sentient/sapient undead "free their soul" or are they still doomed to a hellish afterlife?
I’d like to think it spells “oblivion” for them. Otherwise there is no reason why an undead soul would ever want to be released from their suffering. “Out of the frying pan and into the fire” wouldn’t make much sense for them but finding some kind of peace in nonexistence would at least be a relief.
I know it’s not canonical but I don’t ever remember this being addressed.
There are many kinds of undead, ranging from what are effectively necromantic automatons that require raw physical materials and nothing of the mind (e.g., Skeletons and Zombies) to free-willed/fully aware individuals that retain their mortal personalities and chose to become undead (e.g., Liches). Then...there are "oddball" undead such as the Bodak ("The grim bodaks are formed from hapless mortals who ventured into parts of the Abyss too deadly for them." or "Bodaks are the undead remnants of humanoids who have been destroyed by the touch of absolute evil.") created by unusually cruel deaths: how - if at all - is the soul/spirit/personality connected to the monstrosity that is now walking around? Where do the Banshees lie along that spectrum? |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2023 : 15:47:43
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| Good point on different types of undead possibly having different "ends" based on their type. I don't have a problem with saying that banshees are sent to Kiaransalee's realm UNLESS somehow they get redeemed. It might be that the creation of some types of undead had some involvement with a deity trying to tie those souls to becoming theirs after their undeath "ends". For instance, spawn of Kyuss might all go to his realm.... Banedead go to Bane, etc... It might even be that these souls can help reform a deity that has died. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2023 : 18:36:42
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Good point on different types of undead possibly having different "ends" based on their type. I don't have a problem with saying that banshees are sent to Kiaransalee's realm UNLESS somehow they get redeemed. It might be that the creation of some types of undead had some involvement with a deity trying to tie those souls to becoming theirs after their undeath "ends". For instance, spawn of Kyuss might all go to his realm.... Banedead go to Bane, etc... It might even be that these souls can help reform a deity that has died.
"Regular" Elven Banshees have nothing to do with the Dark Elf goddess of the undead, though, yeah? |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2023 : 18:47:14
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I think you just need to come up with a cool story. Here's one for a banshee/keening spirit I created recently:
In -9797 DR, Coronal Giilvas Vyshaan ordered the High Mages of Aryvandaar to raze Iilorivaedon, capital of Illefarn, so completely that no trace of it remained. The remaining members of House Auglathla, former royal family of Illefarn, were summarily executed, while the leaders House Marstarym, which held the regency, were put to the sword, with the exception of one sept, House Starym, who fled east into exile. Although nominally still independent, Illefarn was then placed directly under the harsh rule of Coronal Giilvas.
Among the members of House Marstarym who fled the capital in doomed bids to escape was Lady Yaereene Marstarym, daughter and heir of Lord Tanagarr Marstarym, who had lost favor with Coronal Giilvas for his failures in battle against the drow of Jhachalkhyn. Unwilling to tolerate a potential threat to his rule, Coronal Giilvas ordered Tanagarr’s daughter and heir to be hunted down and annihilated.
A few days after she tried to escape, Lady Yaereene was tracked to a hidden refuge beyond the mountains, known to members of her clan as Marstarym’s Manthbrae, by three dalafaernd (“battle mages”) in the service of the corona. However, when one of the dalafaern attempted to wipe her from the timeline her with a warstave of annihilation, his attack backfired, and he was instead transformed into a vasuthant. However, his fellow dalafaernd quickly killed Lady Yaereene with more conventional magics and then fled, leaving her corpse to rot.
In the wake of the battle, Lady Yaereene rose as a keening spirit, haunting the site of her murder and forever taunting the vasuthant who once tried to kill her. The two undead then entered into an endless contest of wills that continued unremarked for millennia. Lady Yaereene kept returning to haunt the site, no matter how many times the vasuthant destroyed her, and the spirit of the Aryvandaar sorcerer cannot be permanently laid to rest until the echo of the warstave that created it is destroyed.
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2023 : 16:37:38
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I like that "wiping her from the timeline" and the creation of the vasuthant and their ongoing entwinations.
On ties to Kiaransalee.... nothing official, but it would make good sense to have such happen. To note, prior to the descent of the dark elves, its hinted that Kiaransalee existed in the novel Evermeet.... so I would say that there may have been elves of all sorts that used to worship her, but after the descent it probably became more of a dark elf only thing. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2023 : 06:10:44
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Kiaransalee wasn't a native to Toril was she? I remember something about her wiping out all life on her home plane of Threnody before traveling to plague Toril. It's very likely that she had plenty of interaction with elves there prior to coming there. And considering she seems to take a certain satisfaction with turning her enemies into undead thralls-Revenants, Quth-Maren, etc. For what it's worth, there seems to be a drow association with Kiaransalee with Banshees at least- "kiaranshee" seems to be their word for them. I wouldn't be surprised if she was behind the proliferation of undead among surface elves as well, when the opportunity arises.
But I don't think she invented them. I seem to recall that the Grove of Lolth in Arvandor- from "Planes of Chaos" notes that the place is haunted by banshees-when her followers there were slaughtered en-masse and the grove burned following her betrayal, many (all?) rose as banshees afterwards.
So possibly a curse of the gods of the elves that got appropriated by evil powers later? One would think drow banshees would be more common if it was a natural consequence of an elf dying with evil weighing heavily on their soul. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2023 : 16:16:59
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I don't remember noting the "kiaranshee" relationship... but 3e apparently created it in "City of the Spider Queen" when they made the keening spirit template to simulate earlier edition banshees. Interesting to note.
On Lolth's grove.... it was created from the souls of Araushnee's followers from before she was cast down into the abyss. It might actually make for a good creation point for the first banshees if Lolth wasn't able to claim these souls and Kiaransalee converted them into a form that was no longer collectible by lolth and actually tied to her. I've often noted the many similarities of "the Raven Queen" and "Kiaransalee" and "Ereshkigal"... and I wouldn't be surprised if some of the ideas I've had of these deities being tied in some odd form (kind of like the QoA&D working through many deities and even changing their memories... and like Lathander and Amaunator, when one disappears another comes to the fore)
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Karthak
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2023 : 11:19:42
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There's a mention of Kiaranshee as a unique type of spellcasting banshee in Demihuman Deities for 2e, in that book, Kiaranslee's also mentioned as a dark deity that pre-dates Lolth being cast out of the Seldarine which is where the Threnody reference comes from. While Kiaranslee is mentioned as also being able to create regular banshees from drow followers, she's also mentioned as being a pretty recent arrival on Toril so regular banshees such as non-drow and those followers of Lolth in Arvandor appear to be a random natural occurrence, as none of the elven gods that I'm aware of have any interest in creating undead even as a punishment.
On the subject of Kiaranslee turning surface elves into banshees, Demihuman Deities does have her granting spells that kill elves and lets her claim their souls, but it seems like she reserves banshee-fication exclusively for drow worshippers and doesn't show much interest in creating undead from other types of elves.
I'd suggest that drow becoming natural banshees are a rare occurrence due to Lolth favoring females and evil makes sure to claim those potential banshees before their souls have the chance to rise as banshees, hence Kiaranslee choosing to create banshees from her living worshippers.
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2023 : 14:24:50
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There's a good point: The idea of drow banshees being an aberration caused by Kiaransalee would track with how the Drow Banshee is portrayed in 'Tangled Webs' and explain why most drow women don't rise again as banshees:
"The Spider Queen looked kindly upon the prayer of her young priestess, for it pleased the goddess to reclaim the spirit of the ancient drow who had, in banshee form, eluded fate for many centuries. Through Liriel, Lloth would wrest the banshee from the portal and spirit it away to its long overdue overdue reward in the Abyss..."
If Kiaransalee's apotheosis predated Lolth's fall, then she could have had a hand in the creation of the Banshees in Lolth's Grove as well...?
There was the suggestion by the spider queen in the Evermeet novel that (at least in one specific case) a surface elf's soul can be evil enough that they fall under her domain (presumably disavowed by the Seldarine). Perhaps it is this same category that makes one vulnerable to Kiaransalee's influence and risk possibly being cursed with rising as a banshee. |
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Karthak
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2023 : 20:42:02
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It's possible that Kiaranslee had something to do with the banshees rising in Lolth's Grove, the text just says they got slaughtered and rose as banshees a while later so there's plenty of wiggle room for coming up with a cause beyond the natural bansheefication process.
I'm not too familiar with Kiaranslee's history, if she got enslaved by Araushnee before the transformation into Lolth, it'd be fitting that a goddess of vengeance and undeath might take an opportunity to insult Lolth by snatching some of Lolth's first worshippers and making them her favourite type of undead, she's mentioned as doing something similar in 1300s DR to a ruined drow city that was in the process of building a temple to Lolth, she moved in and finished the temple as a monument to herself. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2023 : 17:28:12
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
I think you just need to come up with a cool story. Here's one for a banshee/keening spirit I created recently:
In -9797 DR, Coronal Giilvas Vyshaan ordered the High Mages of Aryvandaar to raze Iilorivaedon, capital of Illefarn, so completely that no trace of it remained. The remaining members of House Auglathla, former royal family of Illefarn, were summarily executed, while the leaders House Marstarym, which held the regency, were put to the sword, with the exception of one sept, House Starym, who fled east into exile. Although nominally still independent, Illefarn was then placed directly under the harsh rule of Coronal Giilvas.
Among the members of House Marstarym who fled the capital in doomed bids to escape was Lady Yaereene Marstarym, daughter and heir of Lord Tanagarr Marstarym, who had lost favor with Coronal Giilvas for his failures in battle against the drow of Jhachalkhyn. Unwilling to tolerate a potential threat to his rule, Coronal Giilvas ordered Tanagarr’s daughter and heir to be hunted down and annihilated.
A few days after she tried to escape, Lady Yaereene was tracked to a hidden refuge beyond the mountains, known to members of her clan as Marstarym’s Manthbrae, by three dalafaernd (“battle mages”) in the service of the corona. However, when one of the dalafaern attempted to wipe her from the timeline her with a warstave of annihilation, his attack backfired, and he was instead transformed into a vasuthant. However, his fellow dalafaernd quickly killed Lady Yaereene with more conventional magics and then fled, leaving her corpse to rot.
In the wake of the battle, Lady Yaereene rose as a keening spirit, haunting the site of her murder and forever taunting the vasuthant who once tried to kill her. The two undead then entered into an endless contest of wills that continued unremarked for millennia. Lady Yaereene kept returning to haunt the site, no matter how many times the vasuthant destroyed her, and the spirit of the Aryvandaar sorcerer cannot be permanently laid to rest until the echo of the warstave that created it is destroyed.
Thank you, Mr. Boyd.
I had an idea for a remote elven commune consisting of worshipers of The Winsome Rose; "reprobate" is too strong a word...okay, they're malcontents who voluntarily joined this branch (considering that they as race are a mercurial bunch, this is far from a standard practice) in the hopes of getting their hearts in order. Anyhow, the PCs will come across an NPC from this commune who is currently on a two year mission to spread the love before returning for her final test; she joins them on the condition that they accompany her back to where she started. Upon their arrival, they discover that the area has been abandoned except for a former sister who is now a banshee.
Yes, this is very much putting the cart before the horse, but the idea is too appealing to abandon. However, the reason why this former priestess fell so far must be sound. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2023 : 19:39:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Karthak
It's possible that Kiaranslee had something to do with the banshees rising in Lolth's Grove, the text just says they got slaughtered and rose as banshees a while later so there's plenty of wiggle room for coming up with a cause beyond the natural bansheefication process.
I'm not too familiar with Kiaranslee's history, if she got enslaved by Araushnee before the transformation into Lolth, it'd be fitting that a goddess of vengeance and undeath might take an opportunity to insult Lolth by snatching some of Lolth's first worshippers and making them her favourite type of undead, she's mentioned as doing something similar in 1300s DR to a ruined drow city that was in the process of building a temple to Lolth, she moved in and finished the temple as a monument to herself.
Regarding Kiaransalee's apotheosis, we have this from demihuman deities, which indicates she predates the fall of Araushnee
Kiaransalee's ascension as a dark goddess of evil predates even the banishment of Araushnee from the Seldarine, but the Lady of the Dead has long been an unwilling vassal of the Queen of Spiders, capable of only small acts of rebellion (such as assisting the elven heroine Kethryllia in rescuing her beloved from Lolth's demesne).
You know... talking about this and having talked about the Queen of Air and Darkness in other threads over the last few years (and I currently see Baltas talking about some of this concept in another thread right now)... bear with me a second.
The QoA&D story is denoted by a black diamond that changes a powerful fey being. Said powerful fey being then "becomes" the QoA&D. But whenever people look at the throne of the QoA&D they never SEE anyone. They just feel an evil malevolence or something like that.
So, one of the things that Markustay came up with was that there isn't just one "black diamond"... but rather there are several artifacts with black gems in them, and these comprise what is the QoA&D. He called them "the Regalia of Winter", but I might recommend changing that to "the Regalia of the Night of Wintry Death". Essentially, these "artifacts" might act like the shards of evil that affected Tharizdun.
Using that as a basis, they might change the memories of gods. They might even "split" gods, forming new aspects of themselves and taking over avatars and acting entirely separate.
With this in mind, there are several deities that this might apply to over time. When Kiaransalee (possibly an "astral elf"... or space elf.. in 5e... a part of the Elven Imperial Fleet that went its own way) destroys all life on the world of Threnody (just to note, a word that mean wailing song of mourning), perhaps it is because she's affected by the QoA&D and uses the power of that act to ascend.
Perhaps later, using Kiaransalee as an agent, she then "infects" Araushnee. Araushnee, acting as the QoA&D using the name Megwandir, rises up against the Seldarine. During this time, some piece of the "Regalia of the Night of Wintry Death" was passed onto a mortal elven Queen (an avariel), who performed a ritual to ascend to godhood to try and "save the Seldarine"... and the shadar-kai and the Raven Queen were formed.
Later, Aurilandur, Fey Queen of the Frost Sprites, also becomes infected by the "black diamond"... and thus Auril becomes a powerful tool for the QoA&D.
Along similar lines, we might "find" that the splitting of Shar and Selune might be tied into this as well.
Along these same lines, we might find that there is a similar type of "shard of evil" that's affecting "male" gods (possibly Tharizdun... or whatever "infected" Tharizdun). For instance, Kozah had two eyes, but as Talos he has one and the other eye is a powerful blackness. Talos is also known for wanting to raise up other beings as gods and then trying to absorb their divine power.
It might be that these "entities" that correspond to OR are linked to the QoA&D and Tharizdun are competing entities... but both thoroughly evil, with ties to death, storm winds, vengeance, and cold. It might also be a love/hate relationship in some respects, and thus we see enmity with beings like Orcus and the Raven Queen as well as Kiaransalee.... and all three have been involved with magics that erase their name and get "destroyed" as a result. Also, if its "splitting" individuals as they rise up, it might be that some beings, such as Velsharoon ... who is portrayed as playing multiple teams... was really split and even "he" didn't know it. If we play with this idea... the wand or orcus may have some ties to the shard of evil that formed the abyss as well.
Anyway, that whole long thing leads me to think "maybe Banshees are a creation of the QoA&D instead of Kiaransalee... which fits as they are insubstantial fey beings related to death". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2023 : 21:47:22
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Anyway, that whole long thing leads me to think "maybe Banshees are a creation of the QoA&D instead of Kiaransalee... which fits as they are insubstantial fey beings related to death".
That in-setting origin would certainly give them a more Celtic flavor (which happens to be the origin of the real-world Banshee). Still, my personal preference as far as The Realms are concerned is to leave the original "creation" of the "standard" Banshee unaffiliated with the K-lady and instead let her have her own darker twist on that particular undead. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2023 : 22:42:42
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They aren't mutually exclusive though perhaps? QoA&D and Kiaransalee have enough 'blank space' in their history that you could have some sort of connection between the two. For all we know Threnody could have had some sort of celtic-inspired elven culture(s). I would be interested to see some exploration of this possibility since it seems likely that Kiaransalee has had a hand in the creation of the drow-banshees at the very least. Maybe some sort of alliance? stolen necromantic secrets? IDK.
I don't see Kiaransalee as a space/astral elf honestly. From what little we know of her past, she was associated with her place of origin prior to the extinction event she inflicted there and her traveling first to the demonweb pits and Toril. It seems likely that she was never a part of arvandor either, except possibly her influence with the creation of the kiaranshees in Lolth's grove. Lolth doesn't seem to have been aware of her prior to K's arrival in the demonweb pits, despite her apotheosis predating Araushnee's fall. She must have had her own divine realm separate from the demonweb pits and arvandor in the past. Here style seems more to travel by portals afaik. I think two of the 3e sourcebooks mention her helping Lolth invade/hold planes via portals connected to the demonweb pits. If she was a space elf, I would think she would have left a much bigger mark on Spelljammer, but afaik she isn't mentioned in any of that material? (correct me if I'm wrong) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2023 : 22:50:12
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quote:
Originally posted by TKU
They aren't mutually exclusive though perhaps? QoA&D and Kiaransalee have enough 'blank space' in their history that you could have some sort of connection between the two. For all we know Threnody could have had some sort of celtic-inspired elven culture(s). I would be interested to see some exploration of this possibility since it seems likely that Kiaransalee has had a hand in the creation of the drow-banshees at the very least. Maybe some sort of alliance? stolen necromantic secrets? IDK.
I don't see Kiaransalee as a space/astral elf honestly. From what little we know of her past, she was associated with her place of origin prior to the extinction event she inflicted there and her traveling first to the demonweb pits and Toril. It seems likely that she was never a part of arvandor either, except possibly her influence with the creation of the kiaranshees in Lolth's grove. Lolth doesn't seem to have been aware of her prior to K's arrival in the demonweb pits, despite her apotheosis predating Araushnee's fall. She must have had her own divine realm separate from the demonweb pits and arvandor in the past. Here style seems more to travel by portals afaik. I think two of the 3e sourcebooks mention her helping Lolth invade/hold planes via portals connected to the demonweb pits. If she was a space elf, I would think she would have left a much bigger mark on Spelljammer, but afaik she isn't mentioned in any of that material? (correct me if I'm wrong)
Bear in mind, the majority of the spelljammer material was published before Kiaransalee was introduced in Monster Mythology... and even then her development was cursory until demihuman deities. She got a little mention in the dead gods storyline, but the focus there was more on Orcus and didn't delve her origins.
That being said, I don't necessarily see a need to make her an astral elf. I just thought it might be a little interesting if there were SOME astral elves who weren't the pale variety, and the whole idea of them hiding their faces behind masks, her family ruling a world, etc... could fit. It could just be though that they came to Threnody via portals. I definitely like the idea of separating the astral elves from the elven imperial fleet though. Since the astral elves also basically suck the life from worlds to power what might be referred to as "High Magic", I could see some of them following her... and I could definitely see her getting off on corrupting some elves that should have been following Araleth Letheranil (good elven god of starlight/twilight) |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2023 : 07:48:20
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| Banshees likely aren't terribly fond of Bards; not only can a sufficiently accomplished performer possibly counteract their wail (either via their "mundane" talents or conventional magic), but they often bring beauty to the world in the form of song. Hell, come to think of it, an Elven Bard steadily swayed to an ugly malignance may come back wrong if killed...their formerly mellifluous call now a murderous cacophony that can shake the life from your bones. If you believe the good gods can be especially retributive, then perhaps this may be a divine curse in the style of the Olympians; among the Seldarine, Corellon Larethian or Melira Taralen would be the ones to mete out this punishment. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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[2e] Banshee origins?
