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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Apr 2022 : 23:42:42
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I just picked up a copy of Darkhold: Secrets of the Zhentarim and I have to say that I think it's probably my favorite supplement so far for Fifth Edition. I've always had a soft spot for the Black Network and in my 41 years of life can list the dozens of disasters I had to witness them go through.
I am genuinely kind of happy for the Zhentarim that they've become a player character faction and actually outlasted the Shadovar, the Church of Cyric, and every other Johnny Come Lately to remain one of the most powerful evil organizations in the Realms.
At the end of the day, the creators recognized that they're such an iconic bunch of baddies that if you want to give options for Neutral and Evil PCs in the Realms then there's no better example to follow.
Who else feels the same way?
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2022 : 01:14:00
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FUNNY BIT:
"Where I attempt to explain Zhentarim history to my players"
But yes, the Zhentarim are a secret society founded in the city of Zhentil Keep that has a keep called Zhentil Keep. Then Zhentil Keep the Keep got blown up by Cyric and became the Ruins of Zhentil Keep (which is also a supplement) but the city of Zhentil Keep was fine. The Zhentarim then moved from the Ruins of Zhentil Keep and city of Zhentil Keep to Darkhold but remained known as the Zhentarim.
It's simplicity itself! - Gilbert and Sullivan voice.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2022 : 01:51:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
they've become a player character faction
There's no flirting with evil...no favors under the table; when you court corruption, consummation is inevitable. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2022 : 02:19:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
FUNNY BIT:
"Where I attempt to explain Zhentarim history to my players"
But yes, the Zhentarim are a secret society founded in the city of Zhentil Keep that has a keep called Zhentil Keep. Then Zhentil Keep the Keep got blown up by Cyric and became the Ruins of Zhentil Keep (which is also a supplement) but the city of Zhentil Keep was fine. The Zhentarim then moved from the Ruins of Zhentil Keep and city of Zhentil Keep to Darkhold but remained known as the Zhentarim.
It's simplicity itself! - Gilbert and Sullivan voice.
Actually, a good chunk of the city was destroyed the first time, was rebuilt, and then flattened by the Shades and not rebuilt for reasons. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2022 : 03:02:59
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quote:
Actually, a good chunk of the city was destroyed the first time, was rebuilt, and then flattened by the Shades and not rebuilt for reasons.
No shade on the writers, pun intended, but the happiest moment I had when reading THE SWORD COAST ADVENTURERS GUIDE was this:
"No longer engaged in Cormyr,
Netheril attacked Myth Drannor by floating the City of
Shade over it. In a struggle for control of Myth Drannor's
my thal and the Weave itself, the flying capital of
Netheril was brought crashing down on Myth Drannor,
resulting in the cataclysmic destruction of both."
GOOD RIDDANCE |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2022 : 03:14:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
FUNNY BIT:
"Where I attempt to explain Zhentarim history to my players"
But yes, the Zhentarim are a secret society founded in the city of Zhentil Keep that has a keep called Zhentil Keep. Then Zhentil Keep the Keep got blown up by Cyric and became the Ruins of Zhentil Keep (which is also a supplement) but the city of Zhentil Keep was fine. The Zhentarim then moved from the Ruins of Zhentil Keep and city of Zhentil Keep to Darkhold but remained known as the Zhentarim.
It's simplicity itself! - Gilbert and Sullivan voice.
5e lore as I've seen it leaves out the Zhentalil Army as kind of their own related thing to the actual Zhentarim. And it leaves out Manshoon's personal role with Zhentarim while iirc the Zentalil were loyal to the city, and their lore post-ruination kind of was up in the air. In my 1487DR campaign in the Savage North we spent several game sessions on the road accompanied by Zhentalil (or uh, Zhentilar..?) from the corrupted town of Shining Falls.
I find it FASCINATING to imagine what the Army has done in the 1480's. My decision was that since Netheril had claimed almost all of Anauroch (which was no longer a desert) that meant the Zhents' old trade route through the desert was off-limits. This would push them south, which leads right into the wars of Cormyr and Netheril's puppet state of Sembia. Zhentalil mercenaries would be cavorting between battles from Daggerdale to The Sword doing their best to avoid the overpowered Shades at all cost. Any Purple Army soldier who actually made it over the Greypeak Mountains into allied Zhentarim territory would be a veteran with some ABSOLUTE HORROR STORIES I'd think!! It's hard to find descriptions of any Shades after the end of third edition, but their (flying) war machine must have been something that would destroy even several hundred prized soldiers without taking any damage.
I played with the idea of a Rasheman who spent his life traveling westward, being stopped at Bloodstone pass, climbing over mountains to get to the Moonsea, doing crime, hearing about Zhentil Keep, journeying west to find out the place is a ruin and the famed Zhentarim all left. Find out who is milling about in the city, join the now pointless Army, get stuck fighting Netheril for some time in the south of restored anauroch while any retreat would lead you into what's practically a full blown Thunder Peaks Civil War, then you finally get to some place with actual Zhentarim and you want to do crime again. But you have all these military veterans wanting to make sure you "finish your tour" and "don't be a coward". NPC helps overthrow Lady Moonfire's rule in Loudwater and gets rewarded with a way out of the military and an underdark smuggling route THE HELL AWAY FROM NETHERIL! XD
Every Zhentarim Faction Agent NPC story I think of just gets so cool in such a realmslore way, even if you have to make huge guesses about what life was like for those growing up during the time-skip and just before the Second Sundering. Rise of Tiamat, and thus by the sales of that module ALL OF 5E I'm sure, just wouldn't be the same without the Zhentarim. Though, elements of Zhentil Keep's lore have been left completely unwritten since 4e and that's unfortunate.
The Big-Save-The-World Adventure Modules of classic 5e have fantastic Zhentarim NPCs, and it truly does feel like you can find one in any city. And with them installing a puppet ruler canonically in Loudwater, the entire east of the Savage Frontier is just flat-out theirs to control- save for one Harper Teleportation Circle in the region. That's another thing: The Zhentarim of 5e make the Harpers of 5e better by both being included and made to butt heads! These two factions light up and shoot sparks when you put them next to each-other! |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
Edited by - PattPlays on 07 Apr 2022 03:18:52 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2022 : 04:24:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Actually, a good chunk of the city was destroyed the first time, was rebuilt, and then flattened by the Shades and not rebuilt for reasons.
No shade on the writers, pun intended, but the happiest moment I had when reading THE SWORD COAST ADVENTURERS GUIDE was this:
"No longer engaged in Cormyr,
Netheril attacked Myth Drannor by floating the City of
Shade over it. In a struggle for control of Myth Drannor's
my thal and the Weave itself, the flying capital of
Netheril was brought crashing down on Myth Drannor,
resulting in the cataclysmic destruction of both."
GOOD RIDDANCE
What's wrong with Myth Drannor? Anyhow, I wouldn't buy the doves and schedule the jamboree just yet were I you: given their track record, WOTC is probably going to reset those changes next edition. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2022 : 04:42:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Actually, a good chunk of the city was destroyed the first time, was rebuilt, and then flattened by the Shades and not rebuilt for reasons.
No shade on the writers, pun intended, but the happiest moment I had when reading THE SWORD COAST ADVENTURERS GUIDE was this:
"No longer engaged in Cormyr,
Netheril attacked Myth Drannor by floating the City of
Shade over it. In a struggle for control of Myth Drannor's
my thal and the Weave itself, the flying capital of
Netheril was brought crashing down on Myth Drannor,
resulting in the cataclysmic destruction of both."
GOOD RIDDANCE
What's wrong with Myth Drannor? Anyhow, I wouldn't buy the doves and schedule the jamboree just yet were I you: given their track record, WOTC is probably going to reset those changes next edition.
I was never a fan of rebuilding Myth Drannor for the same reason that I wouldn't be a fan of someone cleaning out Undermountain and building a shopping mall inside it. Myth Drannor is one of the iconic dungeons of the setting and it worked far better as a symbol of a long-ago age than one more piece in the "Netherese are in ****ing everything."
I actually was interested in reversing the Retreat from Evermeet but I would have been much more interested in them rebuilding Myth Drannor SOMEWHERE ELSE than taking away a place that had always been so full of evil creatures that you could continue adventuring there forever and never get to the end of it. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2022 : 05:12:06
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Personally, the idea of the Retreat is really nonsensical. It may make sense in LotR, but not in D&D, a game that presents the elves as one of the major playable races since always. So, I don't see anything bad with the elves retaking their ancestral home. Is not as if there were no ruins or dungeons at all there. They had reclaimed just a small portion of the site.
Anyways, according to Ed Greenwood the elves are still rebuilding Myth Drannor. The Shade crash was just a minor setback.
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2022 : 05:25:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Personally, the idea of the Retreat is really nonsensical. It may make sense in LotR, but not in D&D, a game that presents the elves as one of the major playable races since always. So, I don't see anything bad with the elves retaking their ancestral home. Is not as if there were no ruins or dungeons at all there. They had reclaimed just a small portion of the site.
Anyways, according to Ed Greenwood the elves are still rebuilding Myth Drannor. The Shade crash was just a minor setback.
I don't have a problem with the Retreat but I admit if I was ever asked about it in-game, I would put a very cynical edge on it. Elves immigrate to Evermeet because IT is their homeland: an Israel and "Elvish Dream" incarnation combination where you don't have to worry about orcs, dragons, humans, or whatnot.
It would be not something mystical or magical but just, "I am SICK of these mothersucking humans on this mothersucking plane!"
Equal parts racism and dream of a better life. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2022 : 05:37:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Actually, a good chunk of the city was destroyed the first time, was rebuilt, and then flattened by the Shades and not rebuilt for reasons.
No shade on the writers, pun intended, but the happiest moment I had when reading THE SWORD COAST ADVENTURERS GUIDE was this:
"No longer engaged in Cormyr,
Netheril attacked Myth Drannor by floating the City of
Shade over it. In a struggle for control of Myth Drannor's
my thal and the Weave itself, the flying capital of
Netheril was brought crashing down on Myth Drannor,
resulting in the cataclysmic destruction of both."
GOOD RIDDANCE
What's wrong with Myth Drannor? Anyhow, I wouldn't buy the doves and schedule the jamboree just yet were I you: given their track record, WOTC is probably going to reset those changes next edition.
I would have to agree. I wouldn't count the Zhentarim as good guys, yet. The Pereghost is basically immortal so he can play the long game.
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"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2022 : 05:57:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Actually, a good chunk of the city was destroyed the first time, was rebuilt, and then flattened by the Shades and not rebuilt for reasons.
No shade on the writers, pun intended, but the happiest moment I had when reading THE SWORD COAST ADVENTURERS GUIDE was this:
"No longer engaged in Cormyr,
Netheril attacked Myth Drannor by floating the City of
Shade over it. In a struggle for control of Myth Drannor's
my thal and the Weave itself, the flying capital of
Netheril was brought crashing down on Myth Drannor,
resulting in the cataclysmic destruction of both."
GOOD RIDDANCE
I was happy to see the end of Shade, myself -- I couldn't stand how overplayed they were.
I didn't like what happened with Myth Drannor, because it was simply too heavy-handed and yet another case of "Hey, this thing that's been destroyed and rebuilt? We're destroying it AGAIN!"
That said, I also had issue with the fact that destroying Myth Drannor was even an option. That's really my biggest complaint about the Last Mythal books: first they fey'ri casually wipe out any threats that were there, with barely any effort, and then it goes from centuries-old ruins to thriving city in just a handful of years.
It's another excellent example of role-playing opportunities that were lost. I think the ideal Myth Drannor, at the end of that story, would have been a few blocks of safe territory, being used as a staging area/base camp for people working on reclaiming the rest. And for me, it should have taken at least a century to clean out and at least make the place livable, and even then it wouldn't be a thriving city -- a growing community, yes, but still a long way from its former glory, and a lot smaller than it was at its height. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 02:47:27
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I had to check, because I thought the replanted Tree of Souls protected the city. Instead I rediscovered this citation, which implies that an unspecified area was 'warded' and implies no other such defensive actions in the time it took for the city to go from looming overhead to crashing down.
So something survived.
The Herald
9-13 Marpenoth: The flying city of Shade moves directly against Myth Drannor. Telamont Tanthul drains the energies of Myth Drannor's mythal in order to turn the new Weave into a Shadow Weave for his mistress. Larloch strikes against the elves in the confusion and the Srinshee appears to defend them. Shade eventually crashes into Myth Drannor but a hastily erected ward protects the Tree of Souls from the impact.[2] |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
Edited by - PattPlays on 08 Apr 2022 02:51:37 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 07:33:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I don't think of the Zhents as good guys.
I think of them as an Evil player option, which is surprisingly getting support.
In a hypothetical scenario where my players choose Evil and they aren't already acquainted with the Alignments, I would explain to them that Evil is not "Neutral with an attitude."; their character(s) can be plain for all to see or eminently subtle or somewhere between the two extremes, but they have to convince me that any relevant personality is genuinely wicked. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
Edited by - Azar on 08 Apr 2022 14:46:07 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 08:17:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
In a hypothetical scenario where my players choose Evil and they aren't already acquainted with the Alignments, I would explain to them that them Evil is not "Neutral with an attitude."; their character(s) can be plain for all to see or eminently subtle or somewhere between the two extremes, but they have to convince me that any relevant personality is genuinely wicked.
I eventually moved to a more Planescape interpretation of Alignment that was significantly more cynical as I grew older, which is ironically a bit more like the Law versus Chaos simplicity of 1st Edition.
Good=Primarily Selfless and driven by a concern and empathy for others.
Neutral=A mixture of selflessness and selfishness, competitng for control
Evil=Primarily selfish, driven by a lack of concern and empathy for others
Which meant that there were a huge number of evil shopkeepers, bakers, and bratty teenage daughters out there. Also, some genuinely crazy good people who were absolutely CERTAIN that their particular interpretation of good was the best way to go even if it broke a few eggs to make an omelette.
I then made sure this was always in every campaign gazetteer for my players. It worked extremely well for Dragonlance as the idea the Black Robes weren't all raving madmen but just self-interested jerks worked well to explain how they got along.
As one of my PCs put it, "Even the planes recognize gradiance. Acheron is LAWFUL evil where the machine is callous and brutal. The Nine Hell is lawful EVIL where the cruelty is the point and its just efficient about it."
Similarly, Mount Celestial is Lawful GOOD where everything is a place and a plan but mercy is a high point where Arcadia is a place I'd kill go mad because its good and peace at the price of absolute conformity. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 08 Apr 2022 08:24:40 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 09:28:27
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2e has Alignment tendencies; "Lawful Neutral (Good)", for example, is a character primarily Lawful Neutral who leans towards Good. Sadly, such nuance was dropped from later editions of D&D. Anyhow, the character type you're describing would be some flavor of the Neutral Alignments with "(Evil)": they choose selfishness and cruelty more often than selflessness and kindness, but they can easily mask their nastier proclivities in the short term. Simply being a jerk is not adequate enough justification for Evil. There are many examples of fictional characters who are both rude and crude yet firmly altruistic when push comes to shove.
By the way, that is why I don't allow Evil PCs in my games; played correctly, a group of murderers/rapists/tyrants/slavers/raiders/habitual manipulators/et cetera is going to disintegrate sooner or later. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 10:31:17
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Like I said, EVIL is not hard to get in my games. But then again, I don't WANT player characters chopping down anyone who pings evil. I want it to require a bit more to determine whether they're a nasty jerkass or someone murdering children in their basement.
:)
And yes, it was a shame those nuances were lost. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 14:38:53
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| Lawful Evil and even Neutral Evil are more likely to be tolerated in society. Chaotic Evil would not be. I remember when I first started playing that I had an Evil character but I just couldn't bring myself to have my character act in that manner. At the time, I didn't understand that Evil characters do not see themselves as evil (from what I understand from actors who play evil characters). Even today, I can write and portray evil NPCs but there is really no way that I would want to have my PC be evil. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 15:17:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Like I said, EVIL is not hard to get in my games. But then again, I don't WANT player characters chopping down anyone who pings evil. I want it to require a bit more to determine whether they're a nasty jerkass or someone murdering children in their basement.
:)
And yes, it was a shame those nuances were lost.
If a character is Evil, they...
...are detected as such by a Paladin (a paragon of goodness).
...can use evil artifacts (which demand their wielder possess an Evil Alignment).
...will travel to one of the hellish outer planes upon their death.
This individual is worse than a garden variety jerkass, basically  . That said, yes, going battle-crazy in light of such a discovery isn't always the wisest move.
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Chaotic Evil would not be.
It's odd: the faith of Umberlee has a sweet gig going on in quite a few coastal cities and Malarites are tolerated in isolated towns, but Talos worship is one of the few outright banned religious practices in civilized lands.
As for the bad guys du jour? I imagine a stronghold of hierarchical oppression such as Zhentil Keep experiences a high turnover rate (excuse me, "just executions" and "accidents") in addition to the requisite blackmailing and domination that comes with the constant power plays.
P.S. TheIriaeban? I KNEW your avatar looked familiar -> The Docks. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
Edited by - Azar on 08 Apr 2022 21:59:16 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 15:55:09
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Umberlee is only tolerated in coastal cities because she holds people's livelihoods in the palm of her hand. Given the fact that you don't see that outside of those coastal cities shows that chaotic evil is not generally tolerated in "polite society".
Talos would be a special case, too. There is a shrine to him in Iriaebor (one for Auril, too). For my purposes, I have them near each other on a road named Path of Appeasement where everyone stops as they pass the shine and they bow and say a quick prayer before continuing on. Talos gets those prayers in Spring and Summer. Auril gets those in Fall and Winter.
The avatar is just one of the ones offered by the board software. I guess it shows at least one of the board devs is a fan of that game.
Edit: fixed typo |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Edited by - TheIriaeban on 08 Apr 2022 16:00:55 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 22:00:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
If a character is Evil, they...
...are detected as such by a Paladin (a paragon of goodness).
...can use evil artifacts (which demand their wielder possess an Evil Alignment).
...will travel to one of the hellish outer planes upon their death.
This individual is worse than a garden variety jerkass, basically . That said, yes, going battle-crazy in light of such a discovery isn't always the wisest move.
https://pictures.abebooks.com/inventory/30282611979.jpg
The first Dragon Magazine I ever read was 148 that had an article that opened with a paladin cutting down someone who pinged "evil" when they used it in the middle of a market. The peasants proceeded to grab him, drag him to trial, and then hang him to great rejoicing. After all, just because you're Lawful Good doesn't mean you're following THEIR societies laws or good.
As for using evil artifacts, that isn't a crime. They could well be used by Zhentarim to fight Shades or Thayans.
And the lower planes thing is just wrong. A Evil Faithful worshiper of Sune, Kelemvor, or Mystra will go to their realm. A Lawful Good worshiper of Tiamat or Bane will also go to their realm.
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Umberlee is only tolerated in coastal cities because she holds people's livelihoods in the palm of her hand. Given the fact that you don't see that outside of those coastal cities shows that chaotic evil is not generally tolerated in "polite society".
Talos would be a special case, too. There is a shrine to him in Iriaebor (one for Auril, too). For my purposes, I have them near each other on a road named Path of Appeasement where everyone stops as they pass the shine and they bow and say a quick prayer before continuing on. Talos gets those prayers in Spring and Summer. Auril gets those in Fall and Winter.
The avatar is just one of the ones offered by the board software. I guess it shows at least one of the board devs is a fan of that game.
Edit: fixed typo
I don't think Umberlee and Talos are tolerated. They're almost certainly massively and extensively worshiped by the public because they're absolutely incredibly important deities that the average person would want to worship. Because you don't want to be drowned in a flood or killed in a fire. Every family should buy amulets and make prayers toward them and do, depending on their area. The idea that in the Realms people have the luxury of picking and choosing their deity based on morality is a pretty strange one.
You better believe everyone is calling the Priest of Talona in whenever there's a plague.
Gods in the Realms aren't engaged in the sort of Dragonlance and Middle Earth battle between Good and Evil. I mean, some are, but important parts of daily life. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 08 Apr 2022 22:09:23 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 22:09:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I don't think Umberlee and Talos are tolerated. They're almost certainly massively and extensively worshiped by the public because they're absolutely incredibly important deities that the average person would want to worship. Because you don't want to be drowned in a flood or killed in a fire. Every family should buy amulets and make prayers toward them and do, depending on their area. The idea that in the Realms people have the luxury of picking and choosing their deity based on morality is a pretty strange one.
You better believe everyone is calling the Priest of Talona in whenever there's a plague.
Gods in the Realms aren't engaged in the sort of Dragonlance and Middle Earth battle between Good and Evil. I mean, some are, but important parts of daily life.
Some gods will persist simply because their portfolio is so omnipresent that they don't have to work to amass followers (e.g., destruction, the element of water, beauty, et cetera); other gods are focused on narrower aspects of existence or merely society and so they must constantly ensure that their worshiper base doesn't dwindle. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 22:29:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
If a character is Evil, they...
...are detected as such by a Paladin (a paragon of goodness).
...can use evil artifacts (which demand their wielder possess an Evil Alignment).
...will travel to one of the hellish outer planes upon their death.
This individual is worse than a garden variety jerkass, basically . That said, yes, going battle-crazy in light of such a discovery isn't always the wisest move.
https://pictures.abebooks.com/inventory/30282611979.jpg
The first Dragon Magazine I ever read was 148 that had an article that opened with a paladin cutting down someone who pinged "evil" when they used it in the middle of a market. The peasants proceeded to grab him, drag him to trial, and then hang him to great rejoicing. After all, just because you're Lawful Good doesn't mean you're following THEIR societies laws or good.
I'll come right out and say it: too much subjective morality harms Dungeons & Dragons. Now, certain editions of D&D muddled the issue worse than others, but the bottom line is that if you are Evil, you are complicit - one way or another - in furthering the presence of Evil in the multiverse. Again, an Evil character isn't Neutral with an attitude or merely a jackass.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
As for using evil artifacts, that isn't a crime. They could well be used by Zhentarim to fight Shades or Thayans.
I don't know about a crime; legality is certainly subjective. Morally, however, your "essence"/soul/what have you is so attuned to the forces of evil that artifacts which require a malevolent wielder will allow access.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
And the lower planes thing is just wrong. A Evil Faithful worshiper of Sune, Kelemvor, or Mystra will go to their realm. A Lawful Good worshiper of Tiamat or Bane will also go to their realm.
At least in 2e, there are no Evil worshipers of Sune and no Good worshipers of Bane; past the Godswar, Tiamat no longer has Good worshipers. On the topic of Mystra...if a character engages in consistent depravity, I'm not seeing how they're going to be accepted in Elysium (arguably the most "Good" an outer plane can get); not only would they rebel at the opposing morality, but the plane itself is inimical to Evil. Unless the Neutral Good goddess of magic harbors a torture fetish, this arrangement would quickly prove unfeasible (to say the least!). |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 00:57:24
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quote:
At least in 2e, there are no Evil worshipers of Sune and no Good worshipers of Bane; past the Godswar, Tiamat no longer has Good worshipers. On the topic of Mystra...if a character engages in consistent depravity, I'm not seeing how they're going to be accepted in Elysium (arguably the most "Good" an outer plane can get); not only would they rebel at the opposing morality, but the plane itself is inimical to Evil. Unless the Neutral Good goddess of magic harbors a torture fetish, this arrangement would quickly prove unfeasible (to say the least!).
For me, it's a matter of faithfulness to your god and not alignment. Even in 2nd Edition, you don't go generically to your Alignment Plane but can get scooped up by your god and sent to their realm IN said Alignment plane.
Example: Red Dragons go to Tiamat in the Nine Hells despite being Chaotic Evil.
Mind you, again, I keep citing Planescape where the point is that there's good and GOOD as well as evil and EVIL. Small "e" evil is something that paladins shouldn't be cutting down because they are people who could be redeemed from their ways.
Also, even in 2nd Edition, that's describing the clerics of Sune not generic worshipers of Sune. I can't understand why someone wouldn't want to worship her if they were Neutral or Evil. It's not like those people don't crave love as well. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 09 Apr 2022 01:01:22 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 01:33:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
At least in 2e, there are no Evil worshipers of Sune and no Good worshipers of Bane; past the Godswar, Tiamat no longer has Good worshipers. On the topic of Mystra...if a character engages in consistent depravity, I'm not seeing how they're going to be accepted in Elysium (arguably the most "Good" an outer plane can get); not only would they rebel at the opposing morality, but the plane itself is inimical to Evil. Unless the Neutral Good goddess of magic harbors a torture fetish, this arrangement would quickly prove unfeasible (to say the least!).
For me, it's a matter of faithfulness to your god and not alignment. Even in 2nd Edition, you don't go generically to your Alignment Plane but can get scooped up by your god and sent to their realm IN said Alignment plane.
Example: Red Dragons go to Tiamat in the Nine Hells despite being Chaotic Evil.
Mind you, again, I keep citing Planescape where the point is that there's good and GOOD as well as evil and EVIL. Small "e" evil is something that paladins shouldn't be cutting down because they are people who could be redeemed from their ways.
Planescape has evil celestials that are somehow "good". While I do like the setting's details on the planes themselves, I would be lying if I stated I lifted everything from Planescape for my FR campaign; the quasi-Cockney slang is part of what I excise, but so is the murkier morality that places greater emphasis on the clash between Law and Chaos.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Also, even in 2nd Edition, that's describing the clerics of Sune not generic worshipers of Sune. I can't understand why someone wouldn't want to worship her if they were Neutral or Evil. It's not like those people don't crave love as well.
From Faiths & Avatars ->
quote:
Sune
(Firehair, Lady Firehair, the Lady of Love,
the Princess of Passion)
Greater Power of Arborea, CG
PORTFOLIO: Beauty, love, passion
ALIASES: None
DOMAIN NAME: Olympus/Brightwater »-
SUPERIOR: None
ALLIES: Lliira, Selune, Sharess, Milil, Lathander
FOES: Talos, Auril, Umberlee, Malar, Talona, Tempus
SYMBOL: The face of a beautiful, ivory-skinned human maiden
with long, red tresses
WOR. ALIGN.: LG,NG,CG,LN,N,CN
quote:
The Church
CLERGY: Clerics, specialty priests, mystics
CLERGY'S ALIGN.: LG, NG, CG, LN, N, CN
There you go...no evil worshipers. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 06:10:47
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Your info is out of date and edition dependent. Starting in 3E, alignment becomes less and less of a factor in terms of what someone could and could not do (i.e. druids having to be "True Neutral). This has culminated with there being no alignment restrictions for paladins in 5E. I have no issue with Sune having evil worshippers. I can see a bunch of ways someone who was "beautiful and evil" might thrive while worshipping her - life tells us that "passion" can have many, many harmful ramifications.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 06:36:46
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What do you think I was saying?
Anyway, I know some people have a very hard core belief evil should be EVIL and Neutral is the "Jerk" alignment if it has to be but I thought it worked better with more variety.
That's just my take and I can easily see why other people want much sharper divides. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 07:14:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
George, I like having a touchstone when it comes to my fantasy escapism; if everything means anything, then it effectively means nothing. Evil is Evil and Good is Good. In certain instances, yes, passion can be bad, but the passion Sune champions is positive...constructive (much like how Lathander's brand of ambition is positive and constructive, compared to Bane's ambition which is negative and destructive). Besides which, it was already made clear that 2e was being discussed.
P.S. Yeah, the 5e change to Paladins is especially apposite: the name became watered down.
I suppose the question is whether you think there can't be gradients within the Nine Alignments themselves.
The Lawful Evil crooked cop with some redeeming qualities versus Sauron.
But yes, DM's preference. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 09 Apr 2022 07:19:43 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 07:15:20
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Your info is out of date and edition dependent. Starting in 3E, alignment becomes less and less of a factor in terms of what someone could and could not do (i.e. druids having to be "True Neutral). This has culminated with there being no alignment restrictions for paladins in 5E. I have no issue with Sune having evil worshippers. I can see a bunch of ways someone who was "beautiful and evil" might thrive while worshipping her - life tells us that "passion" can have many, many harmful ramifications.
-- George Krashos
George, I like having a touchstone when it comes to my fantasy escapism; if everything means anything, then it effectively means nothing. Evil is Evil and Good is Good. In certain instances, yes, passion can be bad, but the passion Sune champions is positive...constructive (much like how Lathander's brand of ambition is positive and constructive, compared to Bane's ambition which is negative and destructive). Evil may make attempts to corrupt others into like iniquity and Good will do its best to convince others to repent, but there are limits: neither moral extreme wants to actively empower diametrically opposed philosophies. Besides which, it was already made clear that 2e was being discussed.
P.S. Yeah, the 5e change to Paladins is especially apposite: the meaning of the class is watered down in that edition. We can partly blame that decision on players finding accurate representation of Lawful Good to be "too difficult". |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 07:19:49
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For me, the biggest example of this is actually in Fifth Edition with Dragon Heist. The Doom Raiders are a bunch of gangsters and mercenaries who are pretty damn scummy. Why? Because they're Zhentarim and the Zhents are bad.
HOWEVER, Dragon Heist makes it abundantly clear that the Doom Raiders are not anywhere near as evil or monstrous as Manshoon who is basically Wizard Hitler. Manshoon has no redeeming qualities whatsoever and will turn Waterdeep into the capital of his own Magocracy hellhole if he's allowed to take over.
So the Doom Raiders both to protect their own businesses and because Manshoon is a monster are willing to work against him. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Fifth Edition Zhents AKA Good for them
