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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 07:51:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I suppose the question is whether you think there can't be gradients within the Nine Alignments themselves.
The Lawful Evil crooked cop with some redeeming qualities versus Sauron.
But yes, DM's preference.
There are video games which feature a "karma meter". Neverwinter Nights had an Alignment meter that ranged from 0 to 100 for both the ethical and moral components of Alignment...but other than tracking a character's progress as they moved between Law <-> Chaos and Good <-> Evil, it didn't matter much in the grand scheme of things. I suppose it could be possible to adapt and expand such a meter for regular pencil and paper D&D; if your "Evil rating" is, say, 20 (close to 0, which constitutes absolute evil), you would take more damage from Good-aligned magic than someone with an "Evil rating" of 40. That said, I can understand if some find this to be too much additional arithmetic to factor into the experience. Plus, y'know, certain things shouldn't be quantified.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
For me, the biggest example of this is actually in Fifth Edition with Dragon Heist. The Doom Raiders are a bunch of gangsters and mercenaries who are pretty damn scummy. Why? Because they're Zhentarim and the Zhents are bad.
HOWEVER, Dragon Heist makes it abundantly clear that the Doom Raiders are not anywhere near as evil or monstrous as Manshoon who is basically Wizard Hitler. Manshoon has no redeeming qualities whatsoever and will turn Waterdeep into the capital of his own Magocracy hellhole if he's allowed to take over.
So the Doom Raiders both to protect their own businesses and because Manshoon is a monster are willing to work against him.
All I can say is "it depends". A person that became a cutthroat - Evil - because they had no other options growing up is technically different than someone that readily embraced the lifestyle of an assassin because they enjoyed snuffing out lives and yet...as far as D&D is concerned, both characters register as evil, both characters can use artifacts which require an Evil wielder, both characters are vulnerable to "Smite Evil"/attacks that deal increased damage to Evil, both characters are limited to summoning Evil extraplanar beings if a Conjuration spell has a moral component and both are heading to damnation when they bite the dust. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 14:32:50
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Truly, I always thought that the concept of alignment was unnecessary in the D&D game. You play the game, and in one where the DM is paying attention, your actions have consequences. The game has cause and effect. The vagaries of your gaming experience don't need labels and they don't need definition. My brand of fantasy escapism is not absolute, nor is it utopian. While I respect anyone playing the game they want to play, for my taste the adventuring party with the drow dual wielding ranger, the goliath double chain wielding barbarian, the tiefling Amodeus-worshipping warlock, the halfling thief/assassin, the half-elf bladesinger and the dwarf cleric of Moradin is just farcical ... but you see it every day and the alignments never seem to matter. Lawful. Chaotic. Good. Neutral. Evil. IMO for 99% of gaming groups they are just words, so I for one have stopped riding on the alignment train. When I'm writing for the Realms and describing an NPC, I try and provide motivation and character flaws/strengths and nuance. In my book , that works for a better game. The Zhent who was orphaned, pressed into the Zhentilar, survived, managed to swing a sword with some skill, rose up because of his ability to survive, win over people and show his ability and talent, garnered wealth and recognition accordingly, and is now the leader of the Zhent outpost at X (where the PCs are about to arrive) is far more interesting than "Darantar Emerrinn LE hm F8". Darantar doesn't need gradients, he needs to be ascribed understandable motivations and reactions. And his alignment is immaterial. Just my 2 cp.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 16:45:54
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Truly, I always thought that the concept of alignment was unnecessary in the D&D game. You play the game, and in one where the DM is paying attention, your actions have consequences. The game has cause and effect. The vagaries of your gaming experience don't need labels and they don't need definition. My brand of fantasy escapism is not absolute, nor is it utopian. While I respect anyone playing the game they want to play, for my taste the adventuring party with the drow dual wielding ranger, the goliath double chain wielding barbarian, the tiefling Amodeus-worshipping warlock, the halfling thief/assassin, the half-elf bladesinger and the dwarf cleric of Moradin is just farcical ... but you see it every day and the alignments never seem to matter. Lawful. Chaotic. Good. Neutral. Evil. IMO for 99% of gaming groups they are just words, so I for one have stopped riding on the alignment train. When I'm writing for the Realms and describing an NPC, I try and provide motivation and character flaws/strengths and nuance. In my book , that works for a better game. The Zhent who was orphaned, pressed into the Zhentilar, survived, managed to swing a sword with some skill, rose up because of his ability to survive, win over people and show his ability and talent, garnered wealth and recognition accordingly, and is now the leader of the Zhent outpost at X (where the PCs are about to arrive) is far more interesting than "Darantar Emerrinn LE hm F8". Darantar doesn't need gradients, he needs to be ascribed understandable motivations and reactions. And his alignment is immaterial. Just my 2 cp.
-- George Krashos
You don't like/use Alignment? Fair enough, that's your prerogative. However, there is an old saying: "If you cannot judge a man's character, look to the company he keeps.". An individual that freely and openly associates with the Zhentarim will be judged harshly and rightly so; no matter how many protestations to the contrary are uttered (i.e., declarations that "They're not evil."), when you provide shelter/aid/comfort/assistance to your coworkers who very much are less bound by scruples (if at all), you are enabling their behavior. That's the thing about Lawful Evil: it truly is a team effort.
No one is denying that a character - regardless of their Alignment - can be complex, simple or at a happy median. My objection is that certain descriptors are stretched to the point of meaninglessness. In a setting which abides by observable ontological forces of Good, Evil, Law and Chaos, actions carry more weight. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 17:12:35
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I think part of the issue is the fact that "protagonist" doesn't mean "good guy" and I feel like Evil Play has been so strongly discouraged over the years that they've severely hurt some potential markets. The Zhentarim are, in their 5th Edition form, a Private Military Contractors mercenary company with the addition of being the setting's closest equivalent to the mob. They've heavily toned down the TAKE OVER THE WORLD elements that were both Manshoon and Fzoul's goals.
But they're still scumbags.
It's just their motives have moved from world domination to making money.
And it's absolutely appropriate for the PCs to be evil but have a lot of fun being gangsters. I've played Vampire: The Masquerade for decades and am not confused that I'm playing anything but the bad guy. Same when I play Grand Theft Auto or Mafia.
It's FUN being a gangster in the Realms (see Rogue) but let's not pretend the Zhents aren't the baddies. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 09 Apr 2022 17:13:19 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 17:45:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I think part of the issue is the fact that "protagonist" doesn't mean "good guy" and I feel like Evil Play has been so strongly discouraged over the years that they've severely hurt some potential markets. The Zhentarim are, in their 5th Edition form, a Private Military Contractors mercenary company with the addition of being the setting's closest equivalent to the mob. They've heavily toned down the TAKE OVER THE WORLD elements that were both Manshoon and Fzoul's goals.
But they're still scumbags.
It's just their motives have moved from world domination to making money.
And it's absolutely appropriate for the PCs to be evil but have a lot of fun being gangsters. I've played Vampire: The Masquerade for decades and am not confused that I'm playing anything but the bad guy. Same when I play Grand Theft Auto or Mafia.
It's FUN being a gangster in the Realms (see Rogue) but let's not pretend the Zhents aren't the baddies.
In my opinion, the frequently "PG" to "PG-13" nature of D&D is to blame; strangely enough, the bad guys don't seem quite so bad when their more reprehensible actions are concealed by a nigh-aggressive censorship inherent to a particular style of narrative. However, that toning-down becomes necessary to sell evil as "cool" and "sexy" to the masses. If evil were truly played to the hilt, most well-adjusted people would quickly tire of emulating repulsive personalities and I'm not talking about cartoonishly over-the-top villains either. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 18:25:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
In my opinion, the frequently "PG" to "PG-13" nature of D&D is to blame; strangely enough, the bad guys don't seem quite so bad when their more reprehensible actions are concealed by a nigh-aggressive censorship inherent to a particular style of narrative. However, that toning-down becomes necessary to sell evil as "cool" and "sexy" to the masses. If evil were truly played to the hilt, most well-adjusted people would quickly tire of emulating repulsive personalities and I'm not talking about cartoonishly over-the-top villains either.
The same applies to good guys, of course, because the glamour of war and slaughtering evil as a paladin would hardly be the same with the horrific mental toil as well as broken bodies it accompanied. Why should evil be any less a fantasy?
:)
Mind you, my drow players just sacrificed a pair of gnome children. It was to illustrate that, no, the drow don't know any better. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 18:30:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
In my opinion, the frequently "PG" to "PG-13" nature of D&D is to blame; strangely enough, the bad guys don't seem quite so bad when their more reprehensible actions are concealed by a nigh-aggressive censorship inherent to a particular style of narrative. However, that toning-down becomes necessary to sell evil as "cool" and "sexy" to the masses. If evil were truly played to the hilt, most well-adjusted people would quickly tire of emulating repulsive personalities and I'm not talking about cartoonishly over-the-top villains either.
The same applies to good guys, of course, because the glamour of war and slaughtering evil as a paladin would hardly be the same with the horrific mental toil as well as broken bodies it accompanied. Why should evil be any less a fantasy?
:)
Mind you, my drow players just sacrificed a pair of gnome children. It was to illustrate that, no, the drow don't know any better.
No, not quite. Whatever ordeals the good guys go through, at least the player knows they're doing their best; conversely, the bad guys are digging themselves a little deeper each and every day. This is another fallacy: thinking of good as equivalent to evil, but simply of another color. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 22:04:37
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quote:
No, not quite. Whatever ordeals the good guys go through, at least the player knows they're doing their best; conversely, the bad guys are digging themselves a little deeper each and every day. This is another fallacy: thinking of good as equivalent to evil, but simply of another color.
Gonna say it, friend, 25 years of Vampire: The Masquerade gaming.
:)
Clearly being the baddie has legs and D&D would benefit from more play support for that.
I just flat out disagree with you here and think a lot of players would to. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 09 Apr 2022 22:05:05 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2022 : 00:16:23
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I've long felt that the biggest issue with alignment in D&D was simple misunderstandings of it, on the part of the players.
A lot of people act like Lawful Good means you're some sort of fanatic: not even the tiniest act of evil can be tolerated; there are no shades of gray; and doing anything other than charging in and smiting, when in the presence of evil, is wrong.
I've also had more than one person tell me that Chaotic Neutral means "I'm evil one day and good the next, so everything stays in Balance!"
Any evil alignment often becomes "I kick puppies and murder people at every opportunity, because I'm evil!"
And then there's the misconception that "Oh, I absolutely can't do this thing, my alignment is X and doing this thing is not X, so there's no way I can do it." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2022 : 00:30:39
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I've long wanted to play a Neutral Evil character, in a part of otherwise goodly folks. He'd have some reason to support the party (likely a personal tie to one of the other characters), and his alignment would mostly be expressed in a willingness to push things further than the good party members. He'd be the one willing to kill the prisoner, or torture someone for information, and he'd not immediately rush to do something just because it was the right thing to do.
Kinda like how Raistlin Majere didn't really care about the objectives of the Heroes of the Lance; he was just in it for his own benefit and because helping them help him achieve his own goals. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 10 Apr 2022 00:31:23 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2022 : 00:35:45
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Regill Derenge is possibly the best example of Lawful Evil I've seen in a D&D game.
Likewise, Count Daeran Arendae from the same game - he's Neutral Evil, is a hedonist, arranges assassinations for your benefit, needles everyone for his entertainment and makes no excuses about his actions, but slavery disgusts him, he's unflinchingly loyal, he hates demons and he eventually treats the party's CN tiefling rogue (Daeran's an aasimar) as a little brother while warning him away from demonic influences. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2022 : 01:16:25
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I really think you're just flat out wrong, Azar. Mind you, if you make your characters one-dimensionally follow their alignments, then you have made poor characters.
But you also seem to think evil characters aren't fun to play, which is objectively wrong.
I doubt I'm going to convince you, though. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2022 : 01:19:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
No, not quite. Whatever ordeals the good guys go through, at least the player knows they're doing their best; conversely, the bad guys are digging themselves a little deeper each and every day. This is another fallacy: thinking of good as equivalent to evil, but simply of another color.
Gonna say it, friend, 25 years of Vampire: The Masquerade gaming.
:)
Clearly being the baddie has legs and D&D would benefit from more play support for that.
I just flat out disagree with you here and think a lot of players would to.
I don't disagree that the current zeitgeist favors "dark heroes" and villains. My point is that a word has meaning and, ultimately, vileness must be diluted to be tolerable to the average person over the long term.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Any evil alignment often becomes "I kick puppies and murder people at every opportunity, because I'm evil!"
Evil can be restrained and discreet...but that arguably makes it all the more terrifying: the viper to the wolf. Whether your villain plans in back-rooms or comes at you howling on horseback with a sword, their foul nature ought to mean something.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Kinda like how Raistlin Majere didn't really care about the objectives of the Heroes of the Lance; he was just in it for his own benefit and because helping them help him achieve his own goals.
Didn't he begin his adventure as a very rough Neutral before descending to Evil?
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Likewise, Count Daeran Arendae from the same game - he's Neutral Evil, is a hedonist, arranges assassinations for your benefit, needles everyone for his entertainment and makes no excuses about his actions, but slavery disgusts him, he's unflinchingly loyal, he hates demons and he eventually treats the party's CN tiefling rogue (Daeran's an aasimar) as a little brother while warning him away from demonic influences.
In entertainment, I've noticed that the moral culpability that comes with utilizing assassins/assassinations has been steadily downplayed. Also, Neutral Evil is the very definition of "opportunist"; the idea of a Neutral Evil character being unflinchingly loyal to anyone but themselves is humorous.
AD&D ->
quote:
Neutral Evil: The neutral evil creature views law and chaos as unnecessary considerations, for pure evil is all-in-all. Either might be used, but both are disdained as foolish clutter useless in eventually bringing maximum evilness to the world.
AD&D 2e ->
quote:
Neutral Evil: Neutral Evil characters are primarily concerned with themselves and their own advancement. They have no particular objection to working with others or, for that matter, going it on their own. Their only interest is in getting ahead. If there is a quick and easy way to gain a profit, whether it be legal, questionable, or obviously illegal, they take advantage of it. Although neutral evil characters do not have the every-man-for-himself attitude of chaotic characters, they have no qualms about betraying their friends and companions for personal gain. They typically base their allegiance on power and money, which makes them quite receptive to bribes. An unscrupulous mercenary, a common thief, and a double-crossing informer who betrays people to the authorities to protect and advance himself are typical examples of neutral evil characters.
D&D 3e/3.5e ->
quote:
Neutral Evil, "Malefactor"
A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesn’t have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has.
Some neutral evil villains hold up evil as an ideal, committing evil for its own sake. Most often, such villains are devoted to evil deities or secret societies.
D&D 5e ->
quote:
Neutral evil (NE) is the alignment of those who do whatever they can get away with, without compassion or qualms.
Pathfinder ->
quote:
Neutral Evil
A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusions that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesn’t have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has.
Some neutral evil villains hold up evil as an ideal, committing evil for its own sake. Most often, such villains are devoted to evil deities or secret societies.
Neutral evil represents pure evil without honor and without variation.
Neutral evil characters care only for themselves, and do whatever they think they can get away with. They place no stock in the ability of laws or codes to protect them, and thus don’t bother to follow them. At the same time, they’re less spontaneous and prone to whimsy than chaotic evil characters. In some ways, neutral evil is the purest form of evil, unburdened by any other tropes or tendencies. Whether a neutral evil character has chosen to practice evil for its own sake or—more often—simply has no empathy for others, the result is the same: cold, unfeeling cruelty.
Those who care nothing for others or the pain they cause, or who strive toward such indifference, are drawn to this alignment.
Again: the meaning of the word is softened in order to make it palatable.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I really think you're just flat out wrong, Azar.
Wrong about what? |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2022 : 03:21:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
In entertainment, I've noticed that the moral culpability that comes with utilizing assassins/assassinations has been steadily downplayed. Also, Neutral Evil is the very definition of "opportunist"; the idea of a Neutral Evil character being unflinchingly loyal to anyone but themselves is humorous.
I don't find the idea humorous at all. Sure, you've got a lot of quotes about the alignment, there, but again, alignment is tendencies, not rigidly defined parameters.
I think the idea that someone being evil means they can't care for anyone else at all is utterly ludicrous. Someone can be evil, and looking out for number one -- but still have loved ones, even family, that they care deeply about and won't hesitate to protect/provide for. It's not unreasonable that they'll take opportunity of anyone else at all, so long as it benefits those the NE person cares for.
Being evil doesn't mean a person doesn't care for anyone at all -- it just means they care more for themselves than they do for most other people. Not all other people, most.
You're demonstrating one of the misconceptions of alignment that I already listed: the idea that a person never, ever deviates from their alignment, even for a second. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2022 : 03:26:42
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Basically yes.
The idea that "evil" characters are all one-dimensional psychopaths also seems just like bad Dungeonmastering. You might have someone who can and does kill for a living but deeply loves his family. Just like a generally lawful good person may have a horrific character flaw of some kind like being extraordinarily racist to Elves. Which is in fact canon to the Realms in the fact the Chaotic Good elves include people who are MASSIVELY racist to humans and would happily let them all die out or use them as shields for their own people.
They're "good" because 99% of the time they're kind and loving but what makes them interesting is that goes out the window when they're dealing with non-Quel'tessar (and I haven't read or used that word in decades so I know it's misspelled). |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2022 : 06:11:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
In entertainment, I've noticed that the moral culpability that comes with utilizing assassins/assassinations has been steadily downplayed. Also, Neutral Evil is the very definition of "opportunist"; the idea of a Neutral Evil character being unflinchingly loyal to anyone but themselves is humorous.
I don't find the idea humorous at all. Sure, you've got a lot of quotes about the alignment, there, but again, alignment is tendencies, not rigidly defined parameters.
I think the idea that someone being evil means they can't care for anyone else at all is utterly ludicrous. Someone can be evil, and looking out for number one -- but still have loved ones, even family, that they care deeply about and won't hesitate to protect/provide for. It's not unreasonable that they'll take opportunity of anyone else at all, so long as it benefits those the NE person cares for.
Being evil doesn't mean a person doesn't care for anyone at all -- it just means they care more for themselves than they do for most other people. Not all other people, most.
You're demonstrating one of the misconceptions of alignment that I already listed: the idea that a person never, ever deviates from their alignment, even for a second.
I understand the Alignment - clarified across multiple editions, systems and decades - just fine; loyalty works insofar as an ingroup association serves the character's needs, but the second such loyalty threatens their very existence, that loyalty is not much more than dust scattered to the wind. They are mercenary to the core. Even if you grant that this particular Neutral Evil character cares about a lover or kin, they're traveling with "friends" and friends take second place in general, but ESPECIALLY among the immoral.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
The idea that "evil" characters are all one-dimensional psychopaths also seems just like bad Dungeonmastering. You might have someone who can and does kill for a living but deeply loves his family.
No one called for superficiality. This blaggard can be witty and intelligent, but they'll always default to self-serving deceit when their back is to the wall. That is...if they're actually Neutral Evil. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2022 : 07:57:28
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Anyway, moving on, does anyone have any ideas how they might uze the "new Zhents" in their game? I'm thinking of doing a full campaign around them.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2022 : 05:20:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Anyway, moving on, does anyone have any ideas how they might uze the "new Zhents" in their game? I'm thinking of doing a full campaign around them.
Getting their butts kicked by resurrected old-school Zhents who actually have teeth  ? |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2022 : 05:27:36
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quote:
"You must think me a cynic", she said, regret spreading across her features.
At this, he smiled while dropping a handful of coppers just beyond his now empty plate.
"No, no, not at all. I have met many cynics and I've come to know even more during my time in Waterdeep. Even the coarsest of cynics can be fundamentally decent. You...you consumed your conscience long ago. This false humility is as charming as a ballroom dress on a corpse. I do not know what you and your companions are scheming, but I want no part of it."
--- --- ---
To reiterate/expand upon what I said earlier, an Evil character...
...registers as such to a Paladin and the Detect Evil spell.
...is able to wield Evil magical artifacts and, inversely, is unable to wield Good magical artifacts (they may in fact be injured or even instantly killed simply by holding Good magical artifacts).
...is susceptible to Smite Evil and spells that specifically target/deal additional damage to Evil beings.
...can only summon Evil extraplanar beings (i.e., demons and devils) if a Conjuration spell has a moral component (e.g., a spell that depends on the caster's Alignment); for that matter, they can cast Evil spells in general.
...has access to character Classes/Prestige Classes which require an Evil Alignment and, inversely, is unable to access character Classes/Prestige Classes which require a Good Alignment.
...will have their soul head to one of the Evil outer planes once they die.
^ All of that taken together is more than a "tendency" or a "quirk": it is an incontrovertible state of wickedness...no matter how many cookies they bake on the weekend or whatever line or handful of lines they happen to not cross (they are certainly willing to cross others which matter). Finally, the capacity to tell many jokes or skillfully dissemble doesn't mitigate a foul nature.
Now that I've said my piece, I'll bow out from a conversation destined for a circular course. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2022 : 05:39:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Getting their butts kicked by resurrected old-school Zhents who actually have teeth ?
Given this version is written by Ed Greenwood, I suggest you read it before making any judgements.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2022 : 05:54:40
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Some thoughts about the book:
+ I won't be having the Zhentarim stop trafficking drugs since I don't think associating drugs with slavery is a sensible thing even if you wanted to soften the Zhents stance on the subject. Its a lucrative business and I doubt the Forgotten Realms have any stances on narcotics. They were legal up to the early 20th century and a health issue even when they weren't until Nixon. Medieval society is hardly going to object to them selling fisstech (Witcher reference) or whatever.
+ I can see the Zhentarim getting out of the slave trade if they're expanding their legitimate business interests to places where slavery is heavily opposed. We know it's illegal in most of the Realms and the biggest slave importers in all of Faerun are the Thayans anyway, who the Zhents wouldn't want to deal with. I wouldn't be surpised if it continues on as an unofficial trade with the Underdark, though, but is not "officially" one of the Zhentarim's business.
In Shadow Run, they talked about why the Yakuza aren't a bigger deal to the megacorps. "Why would the megacorporations care about a multi million dollar organization's illegal revenue while working as a multi-billion dollar franchise?"
+ The Ruins of Zhentil Keep and storyline of Prince of Lies is completely ignored in the book and I was surprised because they do mention the Shadovar Attack on Zhentil Keep. They just don't mention the massive invasion of the keep by an army of humanoids.
+ I'm also disappointed they didn't mention the greatest god of them all IYACHTU XVIM! They sort of gloss over the entire period where he unleashed the Banefog and was kicking Cyric's ass despite being a lesser god to just mention Bane's resurrection.
+ I like the inherent humor to the fact the Pereghost, an insane Church of Cyric blackguard, is easily the most effective and clearest headed leader of the Zhentarim they've had.
+ The Zhentarim have always been most interesting as the ideal "legitimate" business of crooks and thieves that has a public front but a darker interior. Its basically a corporation that should be welcome in most countries versus GI Joe's Cobra. So the new version as a private military corporation and trading empire actually gets back to their roots in my mind.
It's why I supported the Thayan Enclaves in 3rd Edition even though I felt that was normally what the ZHENTS did.
* I am a bit nonplussed by the treatment of Ashemmi became it tries to make her a more proactive character but erases her romance with Semmenon. What happened to him and the redemption she and he achieved?
* Where is Scyllua Darkhope? She's the other most prominent female Zhent. What's the point of making Ashemmi important if you erase one of the other prominent female Zhent leaders? |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 11 Apr 2022 13:26:25 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2022 : 15:32:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Getting their butts kicked by resurrected old-school Zhents who actually have teeth ?
Given this version is written by Ed Greenwood, I suggest you read it before making any judgements.
This is a better thread to bring this up in than the other one (where it is a tangent and not the subject of the thread).
It has been mentioned before that the only contribution Ed made was The Pereghost's history. For me, that means that everything else in that product is not canon. There is an error in the Thieves' Cant that I do not believe COULD have been made by Ed. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Edited by - TheIriaeban on 11 Apr 2022 15:34:09 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2022 : 17:20:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Being evil doesn't mean a person doesn't care for anyone at all -- it just means they care more for themselves than they do for most other people. Not all other people, most.
As a comment on this, I have used evil characters in context with a "circle of caring". Consider a brutal mercenary warrior as one among a party of players, for a hypothetical example. This mercenary does things for money, sometimes very bad things. They like, respect, even love their fellow party members, and care about them and their welfare. They would kick down a door and slaughter their way through a prison to rescue their friends.
But the guards in the prison that they are murdering? They aren't in the circle of caring, so the hypothetical mercenary will happily remove heads from necks whether they are surrendering and pleading for mercy or not. "Don't know, don't care."
Evil doesn't mean strangling puppies, or megalomaniacal madness. It can be a simpler, subtler, more callous personality. Maybe they got that personality through a hard life of harder choices. Maybe they got it from some tragedy in their past. Maybe they were always like that. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2022 : 18:47:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
Evil doesn't mean strangling puppies, or megalomaniacal madness. It can be a simpler, subtler, more callous personality. Maybe they got that personality through a hard life of harder choices. Maybe they got it from some tragedy in their past. Maybe they were always like that.
necessarily* mean, but it very well could. Evil is a spectrum...though there is a bare minimum. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2022 : 02:25:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Being evil doesn't mean a person doesn't care for anyone at all -- it just means they care more for themselves than they do for most other people. Not all other people, most.
As a comment on this, I have used evil characters in context with a "circle of caring". Consider a brutal mercenary warrior as one among a party of players, for a hypothetical example. This mercenary does things for money, sometimes very bad things. They like, respect, even love their fellow party members, and care about them and their welfare. They would kick down a door and slaughter their way through a prison to rescue their friends.
But the guards in the prison that they are murdering? They aren't in the circle of caring, so the hypothetical mercenary will happily remove heads from necks whether they are surrendering and pleading for mercy or not. "Don't know, don't care."
Evil doesn't mean strangling puppies, or megalomaniacal madness. It can be a simpler, subtler, more callous personality. Maybe they got that personality through a hard life of harder choices. Maybe they got it from some tragedy in their past. Maybe they were always like that.
Well said.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2022 : 02:48:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
* I am a bit nonplussed by the treatment of Ashemmi became it tries to make her a more proactive character but erases her romance with Semmenon. What happened to him and the redemption she and he achieved?
What they did with Ashemmi really tainted that book for me. I get that they had an issue with her backstory of having been forced to become evil... But their retcon impacts a decent amount of material, just to fix something that was, in Realms time, more than 100 years before. Also, the retcon also diminishes Manshoon, I think -- before, he was evil enough to casually twist someone's mind for his own ends; taking away that part of the backstory means removing an excellent example of "this is how evil Manshoon really was."
On top of all that, they had an excellent opportunity to make a new NPC, perhaps another evilly aligned female wizard, and instead they took a page from the current WotC playbook, grabbed some past NPC and twisted them into something different.
So it was a retcon and a missed opportunity.
If it had been me, if I felt absolutely compelled to address Ashemmi's forced alignment change, I would have done something like put a damaged journal some place, with passages in the journal referring to some sort of trickery on Ashemmi's part, with Manshoon's actions either failing or having been just a rumor. Leave the story intact, but spin things so that "maybe it happened this way, maybe it happened this other way." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2022 : 02:56:24
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These debates were old hat when the internet as we know it was young. Rare is the person that insists all evil individuals fully display each and every facet of their personality at all times: a collection of caricatures only. However, there are those that, for whatever reason (power, mostly, if I had to wager), are going to be upfront about being a monster...whereas others elect to be frank about certain depravities while holding others close to the chest and the true corrupt chessmasters may go their entire lives without being discovered.
Lawful Evil characters are the ones most likely to hold to loyalty (overt, at the very least), because they favor structure and are especially loath to abandon the advantages it brings.
Neutral Evil characters...well, I've already gone over them. They're the worst kind of fair-weather friends.
Chaotic Evil characters may not even bother with the mere pretense of declaring friendship. On the other hand, they may find it amusing to lead someone on solely for the purpose of crushing their spirit at some random point. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Fifth Edition Zhents AKA Good for them
