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PattPlays
Senior Scribe
469 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 06:22:10
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Also, I was curious about the Cult of the Dragon and some kind of Lich plot earlier.
I rediscovered the Harper King and the cult of the dragon and the harpers being off-plane and stuff. I knew there was something but don't know if those story beats were related at all to the schism. Probably not.
And yeah, 5e Harpers can get people excited. A secret agent community enables crazy patrons out of nowhere for faction-aligned player characters. The Teleportation Circle network in the north was great, because in 24 hours two player characters circuited the whole of the High Forest and got to meet an Archmage. I want to speak to the people who decided the Harper NPCs in some of the adventures, namely a certain LN archmage with a taste for extending their life. |
:The world's greatest OOTA fan/critic: :"Powder kegs within powder kegs!": :Meta-Dimensional Cheese: :Why is the Wand of Orcus just back?: :We still don't know the nature of Souls and the Positive Energy Plane: :PC on profile, Aldritch Elpyptrat Maxinfield: :Helljumpers, Bungie.net: :Rock Hard Gladiator, RIP Fluidanim, Long Live Pluto: :IRC lives:
https://thisisstorytelling.wordpress.com
T_P_T |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 14:10:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Also, with Khelben dead, the Moonstars don't really have any actual rules or history to fall back on.
So, really, the Harpers ended up winning out the test of time on that. No, it turns out the Chosen AREN'T the central most important part of Those Who Harp. The Justice League WILL continue without Batman.
The Moonstars were doing just fine until many/most of them were slain in a battle at Stump Bog with the Dark Prefects - as alluded to in "Blackstaff Tower".
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 19:32:37
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Also, with Khelben dead, the Moonstars don't really have any actual rules or history to fall back on.
So, really, the Harpers ended up winning out the test of time on that. No, it turns out the Chosen AREN'T the central most important part of Those Who Harp. The Justice League WILL continue without Batman.
The Moonstars were doing just fine until many/most of them were slain in a battle at Stump Bog with the Dark Prefects - as alluded to in "Blackstaff Tower".
-- George Krashos
Which is not to say they were destroyed either… Just severely hampered, due to a need for a second membership drive within their first century (not unlike what's happened with the Harpers themselves, as I recall my Code of the Harpers histories).
The Moonstars yet exist, their members far more hidden than in C&D, and the current Blackstaff is still involved (as is the current Open Lord of Waterdeep) with them, if only to feed them lore and history they would not otherwise be privy to…
Who's the current de-facto leader of the Moonstars? Laeral should be, of course, but she's stepped aside (at least publicly) to avoid conflicts of interest with Waterdeep's needs. Who's she designated as her proxy? That's something I will have to ponder on awhile…
Steven |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 22:36:58
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| Is it confirmed they were the threat he saw? I had always been going with the return of Bane and the idea that his helping Fzoul accidentally facilitated that. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2022 : 23:17:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Also, with Khelben dead, the Moonstars don't really have any actual rules or history to fall back on.
So, really, the Harpers ended up winning out the test of time on that. No, it turns out the Chosen AREN'T the central most important part of Those Who Harp. The Justice League WILL continue without Batman.
The Moonstars were doing just fine until many/most of them were slain in a battle at Stump Bog with the Dark Prefects - as alluded to in "Blackstaff Tower".
-- George Krashos
Which is not to say they were destroyed either… Just severely hampered, due to a need for a second membership drive within their first century (not unlike what's happened with the Harpers themselves, as I recall my Code of the Harpers histories).
The Moonstars yet exist, their members far more hidden than in C&D, and the current Blackstaff is still involved (as is the current Open Lord of Waterdeep) with them, if only to feed them lore and history they would not otherwise be privy to…
Who's the current de-facto leader of the Moonstars? Laeral should be, of course, but she's stepped aside (at least publicly) to avoid conflicts of interest with Waterdeep's needs. Who's she designated as her proxy? That's something I will have to ponder on awhile…
Steven
That could be fun to think about...
The first thought that pops in my head is Sememmon... a former Zhent who has reformed himself to some degree, but that may be too easy.
I like the idea of it being a redeemed "monster" or "typically portrayed as evil race"... but redeemed vampire, redeemed drow, redeemed fiend, etc... feel overdone.
In a similar vein.... a "fallen from grace" being could also very much fit this. I'll admit my second thoughts were Elaith Craulnober, but that might not fit either. Priam Agrivar also pops in my head, but I have to admit there that I never read much of the comics, so I'm not real sure what his character was like... I have them as PDF's, maybe I'll start reading them. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 06:06:09
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In my book, Malchor Harpell would be a prime candidate for leading the Moonstars. He's ... special.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 06:34:12
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Honestly, it's probably not the most popular decision but I actually really like the idea the Moonstars crashed and burned under Khelben's leadership. Maybe it's resentment for CLOAK AND DAGGER's portrayal of Those Who Harp but I actually think there is some decent storytelling motifs behind the idea that Khelben believed that he 100% could do a better job leading his own team with none of the others and answerable only to himself only for it to be a spectacular disaster.
I admit part of this is just my longstanding association of the Forgotten Realms with comic books (and not just the DC ones by Jeff Grubb) but the idea of Khelben being Batman is something that has been a fandom decision for a long time.
And one of the things that Batman has as a failing is his belief he can go it alone and always knows better.
Which, of course, means it was a catastrophic mistake dividing the Harpers and choosing to believe he was better off as a dictator of the group. The fact the Chosen of Mystra backed him up, of course, just makes it worse.
I think it's a better story. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 14:14:09
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I respect your thoughts regarding what you think is a better story, but I think you misinterpret Khelben's motivation.
His decisions had nothing to do with the Harpers - although the Harpers made his decisions about them.
The Harpers were not the vehicle for the dangers that Khelben's researches showed him were looming and he couldn't exercise enough control over the organisation to make it ready too respond to the threat that he saw. So he broke away and formed his own organisation. He asked nothing of the Harpers in doing so, and recruits joined him of their own volition. It was the Harpers of Berdusk who couldn't countenance the breakaway and demanded justification and answers. In that regard, the Blackstaff owed them nothing because his plans and motivations going forward impacted on the Harpers not a whit. In the simplest terms, the Harpers reacted like a jilted lover and Khelben gave them short shrift. Their portrayal in C&D is true to form - the Harpers have been dysfunctional throughout their history and their lack of regimentation and a clear hierarchical leadership structure had been both a strength and a weakness at the higher echelons.
And as for it being a "spectacular disaster", the fates of the Moonstars and Rhymanthiin are inexorably intertwined in my book - and that story has not yet reached its conclusion. The Harpers? They continue, but they are a pale shadow of what they once were because they lack strong leadership. What would they now be if they had backed Khelben? An interesting question, to be sure.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2022 : 14:29:01
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I respect your thoughts regarding what you think is a better story, but I think you misinterpret Khelben's motivation.
His decisions had nothing to do with the Harpers - although the Harpers made his decisions about them.
That's an interesting way of interpreting it since Khelben was being tried for stealing the Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings (a WMD magical item that can ban the influence of gods from the realms) and giving it to Fzoul Chembryl. He basically stole a nuclear weapon and gave it to Saddam Hussein and somehow this "had nothing to do with the Harpers" given that it was in THEIR vaults.
You can argue it did good as it destroyed a Banelich and the artifact but the rise of Fzoul Chembyrl to power in the West is something that eventually lead to the resurrection of Bane and a new era of darkness for the Realms.
quote:
The Harpers were not the vehicle for the dangers that Khelben's researches showed him were looming and he couldn't exercise enough control over the organisation to make it ready too respond to the threat that he saw. So he broke away and formed his own organisation. He asked nothing of the Harpers in doing so, and recruits joined him of their own volition. It was the Harpers of Berdusk who couldn't countenance the breakaway and demanded justification and answers. In that regard, the Blackstaff owed them nothing because his plans and motivations going forward impacted on the Harpers not a whit. In the simplest terms, the Harpers reacted like a jilted lover and Khelben gave them short shrift. Their portrayal in C&D is true to form - the Harpers have been dysfunctional throughout their history and their lack of regimentation and a clear hierarchical leadership structure had been both a strength and a weakness at the higher echelons.
I'm going to have to pause a second because "their lack of regimentation and clear hierarchal leadership" is a weird statement to make because the organization exists to OPPOSE clear hierarchal and leadership. Khelben is also the one acting chaotically because he chooses to state the Harpers have no authority to judge his actions, pleads guilty, and then leaves saying, "YOU AINT THE BOSS OF ME!"
For a Lawful Neutral man, he has no respect for rules or order.
quote:
And as for it being a "spectacular disaster", the fates of the Moonstars and Rhymanthiin are inexorably intertwined in my book - and that story has not yet reached its conclusion. The Harpers? They continue, but they are a pale shadow of what they once were because they lack strong leadership. What would they now be if they had backed Khelben? An interesting question, to be sure.
The Harpers seem better off than ever. Like the Zhents. Maybe what they needed was getting away from the Chosen of Mystra's BS. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 09 Apr 2022 14:36:29 |
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Moonstars vs. Harpers
