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Athreeren
Learned Scribe
159 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Oct 2021 : 06:29:22
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The Temptation of Elminster starts with the mage getting freed from a trap where he learns he's remained for a century, until the Year of the Missing Blade (759 DR). In fact, the prologue starts with this quote from The High History of Faerunian Archmages Mighty
"There is a time in the unfolding history of the mighty Old Mage of Shadowdale that some sages call "the years when Elminster lay dead." I wasn't there to see any corpse, so I prefer to call them "the Silent Years." I've been vilified and derided as the worst sort of fantasizing idiot for that stance, but my critics and I agree on one thing: whatever Elminster did during those years, all we know of it is...nothing at all."
Yet, The Code of the Harpers states that Elminster was present for the refounding of the Harpers in the Year of the Dawn Rose (720 DR). Since both books were written by Ed Greenwood, I'm surprised by the apparent inconsistency (especially since so far, the only narrative function I can find for the Silent Years is to have Elminster be conveniently missing for the Fall of Myth Drannor, and there were simpler solutions for that). Has an explanation ever been given? Is Elminster just bad at subtraction upon waking up from a long sleep?
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Edited by - Athreeren on 29 Oct 2021 07:20:27
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2021 : 09:13:58
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What makes you think that Elminster was trapped in that tomb before 720 DR?
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Athreeren
Learned Scribe
159 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2021 : 11:46:24
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
What makes you think that Elminster was trapped in that tomb before 720 DR?
-- George Krashos
quote:
"What. .. year ... is this?"
"Year of the Missing Blade, in early Mirtul," she called back, then, seeing his weary lack of comprehension, added, "In Dalereckoning, 'tis seven hundred and fifty-nine."
El nodded and waved his thanks, on his stumbling way to lean against a nearby pillar and shake his head.
He'd been exploring this tomb...a century ago?... seeking to learn how the mightiest archwizards of Netheril had faced death. Some insidious magical trap had ensnared him so cleverly that he'd never even noticed his fall into stasis. For years, it seemed, he'd hung frozen near the ceiling. Elminster the Mighty, Chosen of Mystra, Armathor of Myth Drannor, and Prince of Athalantar stood in midair, a handy anchor for spiderwebs, acquiring a thick cloak of dust and cobwebs.
It's true that there is some ambiguity here, going from "a century ago" to "for years, *it seemed*". But it sounds like the reveal of the year leads him to estimate a century has passed (obviously not 100 years exactly, but certainly more than 39 years), and that even if he didn't trusted this adventurer (but she's telling the truth), the condition of his body proves him that at least years have passed. Before realising he should have been free in the Year of the Dawn Rose, I hadn't noticed any ambiguity there. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2021 : 13:26:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Athreeren
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
What makes you think that Elminster was trapped in that tomb before 720 DR?
-- George Krashos
quote:
"What. .. year ... is this?"
"Year of the Missing Blade, in early Mirtul," she called back, then, seeing his weary lack of comprehension, added, "In Dalereckoning, 'tis seven hundred and fifty-nine."
El nodded and waved his thanks, on his stumbling way to lean against a nearby pillar and shake his head.
He'd been exploring this tomb...a century ago?... seeking to learn how the mightiest archwizards of Netheril had faced death. Some insidious magical trap had ensnared him so cleverly that he'd never even noticed his fall into stasis. For years, it seemed, he'd hung frozen near the ceiling. Elminster the Mighty, Chosen of Mystra, Armathor of Myth Drannor, and Prince of Athalantar stood in midair, a handy anchor for spiderwebs, acquiring a thick cloak of dust and cobwebs.
It's true that there is some ambiguity here, going from "a century ago" to "for years, *it seemed*". But it sounds like the reveal of the year leads him to estimate a century has passed (obviously not 100 years exactly, but certainly more than 39 years), and that even if he didn't trusted this adventurer (but she's telling the truth), the condition of his body proves him that at least years have passed. Before realising he should have been free in the Year of the Dawn Rose, I hadn't noticed any ambiguity there.
You're missing a huge tarrasque in the room if you choose to take the thoughts of a befuddled Elminster and the "century" comment as gospel and an actual timeline. I'll let you work it out.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Athreeren
Learned Scribe
159 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2021 : 16:04:46
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Oh, I am certain that I am missing something! Yet a year after being freed, Elminster comes near the ruins of Myth Drannor: "Elminster had barely glanced over its ravaged slope and started to swing his gaze toward Myth Drannor, knowing, by now, the sadness he'd see"
To me, "by now" sounds like Elminster learned about the Weeping War after he was freed, during that year wandering and hoping for a reply from Mystra. But again, that's not coherent with him being at the Harpers meeting in 720 DR. I guess I'll think about it, and ask you again if I can't think of a satisfying answer by the end of the book! |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2021 : 22:13:04
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One of the basic things to remember about Elminster is that his memories and knowledge are not his own. His mind is what Mystra wants it to be. She shoves in memories from other wizards. She removes others that she thinks are too dangerous.
As if this were not enough, El and several other wizards have exchanged their memories as well - apart from Mystra's interference. Hesperdan pops immediately to mind here, but there is no reason at all to believe El has not done this a dozen or hundred times.
In short, Elminster knows entirely too much for a mortal (even a very long-lived one with divination spells aplenty). Assume at any given moment that he knows everything an omniscient narrator would (insert some other archmage gobsmacked at El doing or knowing something and him saying 'it was magic' here). He is, after all, an alter-ego of the original creator of the Realms. Ostensibly, every Ed has ever written about the realms was delivered to him by his old friend Elminster on one of his visits to Earth.
However, he also sometimes has pronounced holes in his memory or knowledge (often concerning something important that Mystra doesn't want him meddling into) - kind of like he's not an alter-ego of EVERY Realms creator. Handy.
I strongly recommend not trying to figure out his mind and just kicking back and enjoying the book. If you are going in order there are still several other Elminster novels for you to read. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1882 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2021 : 07:01:59
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| I wonder if Ed could be queried on this topic via Twitter? |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2021 : 01:51:07
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As the Masked Mage notes, Ed has actually addressed this somewhere here in Candlekeep - I've looked and looked and can't find it - where Mystra indeed plays with his memories. Elminster fought in the Weeping War, although he didn't see its end, and that definitely occurred after 659 DR - so he couldn't have been trapped in that room for a century. Personally, I think you are reading way too much into some flowery prose from Ed. The "... a century ago? ..." is not a statement of temporal fact, but a glimpse into the befuddled thoughts of someone who had just been released from decades of stasis.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Athreeren
Learned Scribe
159 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2025 : 10:47:14
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
As the Masked Mage notes, Ed has actually addressed this somewhere here in Candlekeep - I've looked and looked and can't find it - where Mystra indeed plays with his memories. Elminster fought in the Weeping War, although he didn't see its end, and that definitely occurred after 659 DR - so he couldn't have been trapped in that room for a century. Personally, I think you are reading way too much into some flowery prose from Ed. The "... a century ago? ..." is not a statement of temporal fact, but a glimpse into the befuddled thoughts of someone who had just been released from decades of stasis.
-- George Krashos
I think this is what I had missed:
"Some of his early memories, recounted as fact here and in his accounts of Myth Drannor, may in fact belong to another, older wizard (such as Azuth), placed in the mind of Elminster later, to shape him into the wily, wise, hardened being Mystra needed."
This would indicate that Elminster did remain stuck in stasis for a century (strange that nobody was able to find him during that time), and it was not he who was present at the Dancing Place, four nights before Midsummer in the Year of the Dawn Rose.
I guess it's possible that it is the memory of being trapped in stasis that could be wrong, but that would be a really strange way to start a novel then... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36875 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2025 : 22:15:56
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It's possible he was doing other stuff for a while, but Mystra saw fit to remove certain memories. So maybe he stepped into the tomb a century ago, avoided the stasis, and things happened later that Mystra didn't want him to remember, so she sent him back there a second time, got caught in the stasis, and Mystra reset his memories to the earlier point.
Or, time travel. We already know that's been a thing with some Chosen, like the fact we have at least one of the Seven in Myth Drannor before they were born. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11995 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2025 : 17:00:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's possible he was doing other stuff for a while, but Mystra saw fit to remove certain memories. So maybe he stepped into the tomb a century ago, avoided the stasis, and things happened later that Mystra didn't want him to remember, so she sent him back there a second time, got caught in the stasis, and Mystra reset his memories to the earlier point.
Or, time travel. We already know that's been a thing with some Chosen, like the fact we have at least one of the Seven in Myth Drannor before they were born.
Remember also, earlier versions of the clone spell didn't necessarily transfer all the knowledge you held at death to the newly awakened clone. I think it was 3rd edition where all knowledge transferred, and I think 5th edition was when you could even grow a younger version of the body (essentially becoming immortal via this spell). How many times has Elminster "died" and been reborn into a clone backup and thereby lost memories?
From 1st edition
Note that the clone will become the person as he or she existed at the time at which the flesh was taken, and all subsequent knowledge, experience, etc. will be totally unknown to the clone.
similar statement in the 2nd edition PHB |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 02 Feb 2025 17:03:03 |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1727 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2025 : 18:22:08
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Another option for the quiver of possible explanations (and one that fits the characters as already set):
Khelben would NOT have hesitated for a moment to cloak Laeral or one of the Seven (or anyone else who knew Elminster deeply) in illusions to make it seem like Elminster was at hand even if he couldn't be. "Just so those less apt to listen to me might keep from arguing with what needs happen
" would be the sort of snotty aside Khelben might put in a journal, were he to keep such a thing
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Steven
muddying the waters because lore is rarely easily reconciled across nigh-40 years of published histories
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For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11995 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2025 : 15:09:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Another option for the quiver of possible explanations (and one that fits the characters as already set):
Khelben would NOT have hesitated for a moment to cloak Laeral or one of the Seven (or anyone else who knew Elminster deeply) in illusions to make it seem like Elminster was at hand even if he couldn't be. "Just so those less apt to listen to me might keep from arguing with what needs happen
" would be the sort of snotty aside Khelben might put in a journal, were he to keep such a thing
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Steven
muddying the waters because lore is rarely easily reconciled across nigh-40 years of published histories
THIS is why I like you. Yes. There is always a backdoor and there's always another spin that can be done with things when magic is around. It just takes a mind willing enough to spin things.... and yes, sometimes I find myself on the other side of these types of arguments and forgetting this myself. Thanks Steven. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 03 Feb 2025 15:11:37 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1882 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2025 : 01:53:10
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| I assumed someone close to him in disguise but, personally, my gut tells he that is WAS the Old Mage, even if through some magical shenanigans. OR it was Azuth himself. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Elminster and the first reformation of the Harpers
