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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Aug 2021 : 14:38:47
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| One thing that I REALLY think should have never have been removed from his special clone spell was the idea that the clone is reborn with only the knowledge known by the last version of Manshoon to touch it. In many cases, there might have been a few months in between these times. With him running as many machinations as he was, just think how discomfiting this may have been. You essentially wake up and say half a year has passed... during which you did all kinds of plots, set passwords on these, hid things, etc... and you may not have written it all down for your other self to find to "catch up". You also don't know how you died. It would create a great paranoia, especially if the "next" clone dies before he can even reach the "third tier down"... and THAT one awakes with even less information. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2021 : 15:33:55
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One thing that I REALLY think should have never have been removed from his special clone spell was the idea that the clone is reborn with only the knowledge known by the last version of Manshoon to touch it. In many cases, there might have been a few months in between these times. With him running as many machinations as he was, just think how discomfiting this may have been. You essentially wake up and say half a year has passed... during which you did all kinds of plots, set passwords on these, hid things, etc... and you may not have written it all down for your other self to find to "catch up". You also don't know how you died. It would create a great paranoia, especially if the "next" clone dies before he can even reach the "third tier down"... and THAT one awakes with even less information.
LOL
Now I'm envisioning Manshoon as a disorganized IT guy. He's got all sorts of partial snapshots of his systems with varying timestamps. |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2021 : 16:15:08
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One thing that I REALLY think should have never have been removed from his special clone spell was the idea that the clone is reborn with only the knowledge known by the last version of Manshoon to touch it. In many cases, there might have been a few months in between these times. With him running as many machinations as he was, just think how discomfiting this may have been. You essentially wake up and say half a year has passed... during which you did all kinds of plots, set passwords on these, hid things, etc... and you may not have written it all down for your other self to find to "catch up". You also don't know how you died. It would create a great paranoia, especially if the "next" clone dies before he can even reach the "third tier down"... and THAT one awakes with even less information.
That's an interesting point. I would imagine that Manshoon would have regularly had to take the time to go touch all his clones to update them -- but I'm pretty sure existing lore contradicts that. So unless he keeps a detailed journal, and it's been in one spot for a while, there's a strong possibility of Manshoon forgetting his own plots, or betrayals by or against him, or recent magical item caches/creations/acquisitions. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2021 : 16:19:03
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One thing that I REALLY think should have never have been removed from his special clone spell was the idea that the clone is reborn with only the knowledge known by the last version of Manshoon to touch it. In many cases, there might have been a few months in between these times. With him running as many machinations as he was, just think how discomfiting this may have been. You essentially wake up and say half a year has passed... during which you did all kinds of plots, set passwords on these, hid things, etc... and you may not have written it all down for your other self to find to "catch up". You also don't know how you died. It would create a great paranoia, especially if the "next" clone dies before he can even reach the "third tier down"... and THAT one awakes with even less information.
I also liked this. It was also used as an explanation as to why he wasn't higher level (he gains a level but doesn't touch the clone before he is killed and boom, he is his "younger self"). It could also be used as the reason why "Manshoon is an idiot". He would make plans and plots that get set in motion and then get killed and his clone comes back and has no idea what is going on. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2021 : 16:23:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One thing that I REALLY think should have never have been removed from his special clone spell was the idea that the clone is reborn with only the knowledge known by the last version of Manshoon to touch it. In many cases, there might have been a few months in between these times. With him running as many machinations as he was, just think how discomfiting this may have been. You essentially wake up and say half a year has passed... during which you did all kinds of plots, set passwords on these, hid things, etc... and you may not have written it all down for your other self to find to "catch up". You also don't know how you died. It would create a great paranoia, especially if the "next" clone dies before he can even reach the "third tier down"... and THAT one awakes with even less information.
That's an interesting point. I would imagine that Manshoon would have regularly had to take the time to go touch all his clones to update them -- but I'm pretty sure existing lore contradicts that. So unless he keeps a detailed journal, and it's been in one spot for a while, there's a strong possibility of Manshoon forgetting his own plots, or betrayals by or against him, or recent magical item caches/creations/acquisitions.
Now THAT would be a find. Someone finds his journal that lists all his plots and caches and suddenly everything he has going starts to unravel. That would be a Manshoon pushed into a corner. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2021 : 16:49:45
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's an interesting point. I would imagine that Manshoon would have regularly had to take the time to go touch all his clones to update them -- but I'm pretty sure existing lore contradicts that. So unless he keeps a detailed journal, and it's been in one spot for a while, there's a strong possibility of Manshoon forgetting his own plots, or betrayals by or against him, or recent magical item caches/creations/acquisitions.
Now THAT would be a find. Someone finds his journal that lists all his plots and caches and suddenly everything he has going starts to unravel. That would be a Manshoon pushed into a corner.
Yeah, that journal would be an asset to Manshoon mk.LXVIII, so he'd know what Manshoon mk.LXVII had been up to -- but it'd also be a huge potential weakness, for the reasons you describe. I don't see a good way around that one. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2021 : 16:54:22
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| I'm also wondering, now, how many magical items Manshoon has lost over the years by having them on his person when getting destroyed -- because even if the next clone is fully up to date, it's not likely to know where the prior clone was when it was killed. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2021 : 17:18:27
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A contingency that will teleport currently worn magic items to a specific location? Otherwise, he would have to have multiple copies of all his "usual wear" items.
As for a journal, why would it have to be a book? What about a construct? It would have total loyalty to him, couldn't be mind read, and could be self mobile so that it would automatically move to a certain location in a certain pattern to keep it safe. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2021 : 18:27:41
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
A contingency that will teleport currently worn magic items to a specific location? Otherwise, he would have to have multiple copies of all his "usual wear" items.
As for a journal, why would it have to be a book? What about a construct? It would have total loyalty to him, couldn't be mind read, and could be self mobile so that it would automatically move to a certain location in a certain pattern to keep it safe.
That'd be more secure, but any single source that contains his secrets isn't going to be safe. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2021 : 18:40:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
A contingency that will teleport currently worn magic items to a specific location? Otherwise, he would have to have multiple copies of all his "usual wear" items.
As for a journal, why would it have to be a book? What about a construct? It would have total loyalty to him, couldn't be mind read, and could be self mobile so that it would automatically move to a certain location in a certain pattern to keep it safe.
That'd be more secure, but any single source that contains his secrets isn't going to be safe.
A serial construct spell? That way, it could self destruct if captured and the data would just appear in another one. As it moves around, it could touch the next one to make sure all data is up-to-date. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2021 : 21:56:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm also wondering, now, how many magical items Manshoon has lost over the years by having them on his person when getting destroyed -- because even if the next clone is fully up to date, it's not likely to know where the prior clone was when it was killed.
Probably many, though it hardly matters.
It is canon that he has one of the largest collections of magic items in the realms - on par with Khelben and Silverymoon.
Moreover, it is also known that he creates his own magic items as well as others used by other Zhents. Among these are at least two of such power that Azuth or Mystra chose to step in and take them away. How many archmages of the realms can make that claim? I'd have to say the list is not long.
It is one of the tidbits about him that is usually overlooked, which is unfortunate as it confirms he is among the upper echelons of realms mages. Perhaps only surpassed by the likes of a couple Chosen, Halaster, Larloch, etc. |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 05:16:56
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
It could also be used as the reason why "Manshoon is an idiot". He would make plans and plots that get set in motion and then get killed and his clone comes back and has no idea what is going on.
Fair point. Each time that happened that would cause a certain amount of chaos and he'd be on the back foot for a while. Depending upon how many memories he lost and how he reacted to unknown circumstance, I could see a certain amount of disruption and inefficiencies in his plans.
The problem with that is that, after one or two times of loosing whole years of his life and being in such an inconvenienced position, you would think that he would take precautions to prevent that from occurring.
I think if we add a certain bit of mental instability to the cloning process, then that would help. Like, when you make a photocopy off the original document, it is pretty good. But then you make a copy of the copy, and then a copy of the copy of the copy, and so forth, the document doesn't look as crisp anymore because the image degrades with each copying.
I'm trying this on for size.
I think I like it. That is fairly strong by itself.
If I combine my curse idea with the copy degradation due to so many clones...I think...I think...that is actually a satisfying explanation.
Well done, TheIriaeban! That is a really excellent insight you had right there!
That invites the question of how many times has Manshoon died in the realms?
Hello Eric L. Boyd!
It was not until yesterday that I realized who you were! Thank you for all your work over the years and your contributions to the Realms!
Do you have any personal opinion on how many times Manshoon may have died? |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 08:44:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Hello Eric L. Boyd!
It was not until yesterday that I realized who you were! Thank you for all your work over the years and your contributions to the Realms!
The Cult of Boyd resurfaces. I thought we'd eradicated that a long time ago. Guess not.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 27 Aug 2021 08:45:12 |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 10:47:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Do you have any personal opinion on how many times Manshoon may have died?
So, probably not as many as most people suppose.
I do also think George's timeline analysis is spot on, so there's been less time overall. (Not a surprise. George did much of the original timeline analysis that appears in most of the products I worked on.)
RoZK is a fun / frustrating product. I like the timeline's "alternate take" on events, but the overall timeline was pretty messed up.
The way I rationalize it in my brain is the RoZK timeline is clearly propaganda, and someone (Fzoul? Manshoon?) wished to portray themselves as in power for longer than what was really true. That allows the DM to enjoy the story but get the dates right as Ed had originally envisioned. |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 12:30:13
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
You essentially wake up and say half a year has passed... during which you did all kinds of plots, set passwords on these, hid things, etc... and you may not have written it all down for your other self to find to "catch up". You also don't know how you died. It would create a great paranoia, especially if the "next" clone dies before he can even reach the "third tier down"... and THAT one awakes with even less information.
There is also the danger, if enough time passes, that he makes a new clone, dies, and the clone that wakes up doesn't know that his previous self made the new clone. So you would potentially end up with Manshoon clones that are years and years behind, simply because the rest of the clones waking up didn’t know that the clone existed and never updated them, and then suddenly that clone is the one waking up.
And on him forgetting how he died, I vaguely recall him dying to a lich in one novel, and then his clone waking up and thinking "I was killed, it must have been Elminster" even though it actually wasn't (that time).
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
A contingency that will teleport currently worn magic items to a specific location? Otherwise, he would have to have multiple copies of all his "usual wear" items.
There's already a spell that does something similar to this, Drawmij's Instant Summons. It's existed across multiple editions (renamed "Mage's Instant Summons" in 3e, I believe). It doesn't work if the items have already been claimed by somebody, just tells you who has them (depends how long it takes his clone to wake up, if it is near-instant "Die > Wake Up > Activate Spell" then he could theoretically snatch them in time), and there are also some other differences that would need to be worked around. Still, it's reasonably viable as something he would possess and could use, I think.
EDIT: Stupid iPad and stupid auto-formatting, what the hell even happened there. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
Edited by - Eldacar on 27 Aug 2021 18:52:02 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 13:07:31
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One thing that I REALLY think should have never have been removed from his special clone spell was the idea that the clone is reborn with only the knowledge known by the last version of Manshoon to touch it. In many cases, there might have been a few months in between these times. With him running as many machinations as he was, just think how discomfiting this may have been. You essentially wake up and say half a year has passed... during which you did all kinds of plots, set passwords on these, hid things, etc... and you may not have written it all down for your other self to find to "catch up". You also don't know how you died. It would create a great paranoia, especially if the "next" clone dies before he can even reach the "third tier down"... and THAT one awakes with even less information.
LOL
Now I'm envisioning Manshoon as a disorganized IT guy. He's got all sorts of partial snapshots of his systems with varying timestamps.
EXACTLY why it hit me so well, because while I'm NOT disorganized, I am an IT guy... and I'm always balancing multiple projects, keeping track of schedules, IP addressing, port types, circuit ID's, names of personnel around the country and who has quit and been replaced by who..... I can see Manshoon coming back and expecting that Captain X is in charge of a fortress, only to find out he was killed by harpers 6 months prior and that he was personally replaced by someone handpicked by Fzoul (but he doesn't know that Fzoul put him in place). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 13:16:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One thing that I REALLY think should have never have been removed from his special clone spell was the idea that the clone is reborn with only the knowledge known by the last version of Manshoon to touch it. In many cases, there might have been a few months in between these times. With him running as many machinations as he was, just think how discomfiting this may have been. You essentially wake up and say half a year has passed... during which you did all kinds of plots, set passwords on these, hid things, etc... and you may not have written it all down for your other self to find to "catch up". You also don't know how you died. It would create a great paranoia, especially if the "next" clone dies before he can even reach the "third tier down"... and THAT one awakes with even less information.
That's an interesting point. I would imagine that Manshoon would have regularly had to take the time to go touch all his clones to update them -- but I'm pretty sure existing lore contradicts that. So unless he keeps a detailed journal, and it's been in one spot for a while, there's a strong possibility of Manshoon forgetting his own plots, or betrayals by or against him, or recent magical item caches/creations/acquisitions.
Here's another thing that comes from being in IT and security... he has to have that journal... he has to have it WELL hidden (so that if he dies someone doesn't immediately go to move it on him)... and he has to have it SECURE in a way that means NOONE can interpret it. He can try to secure it with magic, but just doing that would be stupid as hell.... anyone in security knows you have to do double security. So, spells on top of his own cipher or some other means to make it secure that can't be easily broken. His own cipher will generally mean he has to unbreak his own cipher (which perhaps he has a spell for that, but if he does, then he has to recover his spellbook first AND he has to make sure that that spellbook and that spell are not lost). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 13:22:46
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
A contingency that will teleport currently worn magic items to a specific location? Otherwise, he would have to have multiple copies of all his "usual wear" items.
As for a journal, why would it have to be a book? What about a construct? It would have total loyalty to him, couldn't be mind read, and could be self mobile so that it would automatically move to a certain location in a certain pattern to keep it safe.
And magical trickery can't be used to make that construct believe that person A isn't Manshoon? Not secure enough. That being said, that's a good step towards security that I do like. I just think its worth exploring next steps beyond that. A password that is specific to each place that it moves to would be a good next step (i.e. when it's in place X the password is muffin, when in place Y the password is macguffin, when in place Z its puffin.... something where Manshoon can remember that the ending changes and that something about the site <sitename, etc...> reminds him of the beginning). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 13:36:15
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm also wondering, now, how many magical items Manshoon has lost over the years by having them on his person when getting destroyed -- because even if the next clone is fully up to date, it's not likely to know where the prior clone was when it was killed.
Probably many, though it hardly matters.
It is canon that he has one of the largest collections of magic items in the realms - on par with Khelben and Silverymoon.
Moreover, it is also known that he creates his own magic items as well as others used by other Zhents. Among these are at least two of such power that Azuth or Mystra chose to step in and take them away. How many archmages of the realms can make that claim? I'd have to say the list is not long.
It is one of the tidbits about him that is usually overlooked, which is unfortunate as it confirms he is among the upper echelons of realms mages. Perhaps only surpassed by the likes of a couple Chosen, Halaster, Larloch, etc.
One part of this I feel needs to change. The idea that Manshoon makes magic items for himself and others. If he's having to keep some "journal" for updating his clones, that takes time (I know with my job I have to write up a weekly report once a week of what I've done in detail, with the help of my email, so that I can apply time to numerous projects..... even going back just 4 days, it takes me 2 to 3 hours to remember and write it all down in a meaningful way). If he's having to run the Zhentarim and plot, that takes time. If he's having to do spell research on new spells, that takes time. If he's having to hunt down someone who betrayed him, that takes time. If he's having to periodically run around and access numerous hidden clones spread all over the realms, that takes time.
Manshoon has no damn time to be making magic items for himself or anyone else. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 13:42:38
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Hello Eric L. Boyd!
It was not until yesterday that I realized who you were! Thank you for all your work over the years and your contributions to the Realms!
The Cult of Boyd resurfaces. I thought we'd eradicated that a long time ago. Guess not.
-- George Krashos
That just goes to show how well we hide directly in the open right under your nose George.... or is that an illusion of me, and I'm secretly in your pantry stealing all your best candy? What, you didn't realize that I'm REALLY a wizard from Faerun located here and able to teleport? What I still haven't been able to uncover is how Eric knows so much truth about my world. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 14:46:03
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Hello Eric L. Boyd!
It was not until yesterday that I realized who you were! Thank you for all your work over the years and your contributions to the Realms!
The Cult of Boyd resurfaces. I thought we'd eradicated that a long time ago. Guess not.
-- George Krashos
Don't you worry, George. There are those that know that Eric wouldn't know his Eaerlann from his Evereska without your help.  |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 14:54:51
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
A contingency that will teleport currently worn magic items to a specific location? Otherwise, he would have to have multiple copies of all his "usual wear" items.
As for a journal, why would it have to be a book? What about a construct? It would have total loyalty to him, couldn't be mind read, and could be self mobile so that it would automatically move to a certain location in a certain pattern to keep it safe.
And magical trickery can't be used to make that construct believe that person A isn't Manshoon? Not secure enough. That being said, that's a good step towards security that I do like. I just think its worth exploring next steps beyond that. A password that is specific to each place that it moves to would be a good next step (i.e. when it's in place X the password is muffin, when in place Y the password is macguffin, when in place Z its puffin.... something where Manshoon can remember that the ending changes and that something about the site <sitename, etc...> reminds him of the beginning).
The construct idea was just something off the top of my head. There are ways to secure it. A Helmed Horror can see through any desception if contacted telepathically. Manshoon could leverage that in his construct so that if someone doesn't authenticate via telepathy, the construct remains silent or even performs other actions. Manshoon is a genius. I, unfortunately, am not. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 17:27:46
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Don't you worry, George. There are those that know that Eric wouldn't know his Eaerlann from his Evereska without your help.
Same thing, different name. Gnome-ruled realm. Quite the horror show.
<Answer pending George's seal of approval.>
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 17:57:40
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
A contingency that will teleport currently worn magic items to a specific location? Otherwise, he would have to have multiple copies of all his "usual wear" items.
As for a journal, why would it have to be a book? What about a construct? It would have total loyalty to him, couldn't be mind read, and could be self mobile so that it would automatically move to a certain location in a certain pattern to keep it safe.
And magical trickery can't be used to make that construct believe that person A isn't Manshoon? Not secure enough. That being said, that's a good step towards security that I do like. I just think its worth exploring next steps beyond that. A password that is specific to each place that it moves to would be a good next step (i.e. when it's in place X the password is muffin, when in place Y the password is macguffin, when in place Z its puffin.... something where Manshoon can remember that the ending changes and that something about the site <sitename, etc...> reminds him of the beginning).
The construct idea was just something off the top of my head. There are ways to secure it. A Helmed Horror can see through any desception if contacted telepathically. Manshoon could leverage that in his construct so that if someone doesn't authenticate via telepathy, the construct remains silent or even performs other actions. Manshoon is a genius. I, unfortunately, am not.
I like that... telepathic link should "confirm identity" more than visual and voice. Combined with a certain password given telepathically, even someone scrying on him would be hard pressed to figure out the methodology. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 18:02:34
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Don't you worry, George. There are those that know that Eric wouldn't know his Eaerlann from his Evereska without your help.
Same thing, different name. Gnome-ruled realm. Quite the horror show.
<Answer pending George's seal of approval.>
--Eric
Now why did you have to go that way? Now I have an idea for an evil gnome kingdom who is working towards taking over the world. They would use the gnome's ability to stay in the background wherever they are but pull the strings on those in power to get what they want. The current ruler is Marandar Valuneba Bodgedass (Marandar is the Gnim version of queen).
<sigh> Let me add that to my list. I think I can use them in the 5e era for Iriaebor as one of the groups operating in the city once it is fleshed out a bit. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Edited by - TheIriaeban on 27 Aug 2021 22:21:16 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 19:31:24
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I like that... telepathic link should "confirm identity" more than visual and voice. Combined with a certain password given telepathically, even someone scrying on him would be hard pressed to figure out the methodology.
I'd be more inclined, in this scenario, to have the journal in some sort of multipart form. Maybe something like a scrying bowl, that when certain linked items are placed into it, and then it's filled with a particular type of liquid, it then acts as a journal that can record/play back thoughts or spoken words, or show images of writing. So Manshoon could write something down, put an image of what he wrote into this device, destroy the original writing, and then disassemble the device. (Or speak into it, whatever)
As long as the user is the only one who can see/hear what's in this scrying bowl, even someone in the room with him would think Manny was just scrying on something. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Aug 2021 19:32:40 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 23:06:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe something like a scrying bowl, that when certain linked items are placed into it, and then it's filled with a particular type of liquid, it then acts as a journal that can record/play back thoughts or spoken words, or show images of writing. So Manshoon could write something down, put an image of what he wrote into this device, destroy the original writing, and then disassemble the device. (Or speak into it, whatever)
As long as the user is the only one who can see/hear what's in this scrying bowl, even someone in the room with him would think Manny was just scrying on something.
That sounds an awful lot like a Pensieve out of Harry Potter. Which may be the intent? |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2021 : 05:54:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe something like a scrying bowl, that when certain linked items are placed into it, and then it's filled with a particular type of liquid, it then acts as a journal that can record/play back thoughts or spoken words, or show images of writing. So Manshoon could write something down, put an image of what he wrote into this device, destroy the original writing, and then disassemble the device. (Or speak into it, whatever)
As long as the user is the only one who can see/hear what's in this scrying bowl, even someone in the room with him would think Manny was just scrying on something.
That sounds an awful lot like a Pensieve out of Harry Potter. Which may be the intent?
Kinda. I'm thinking a scrying device like a bowl or crystal ball would work well. It would have to be more complex to operate, though, hence the idea of the extra components and such.
Unlike the Pensieve, though, it wouldn't be a thing where any yahoo could walk up and say "Hey, let's get a VR tour of this dude's memories!" It would have to be assembled first, a particular spell/ritual used, and then the caster can get like an AR overlay of things they themselves put into it.
This is all just tossing out ideas, though. An alternative would be something like a special crown. It looks normal, but pop out one or more gemstones and pop in ones that function similar to a kiira and go from there. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2021 : 07:53:20
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The Cult of Boyd resurfaces. I thought we'd eradicated that a long time ago. Guess not.
It was the "Forgotten Realms Designer" tag above his profile picture that tipped me off. I was like "Really?" And then I looked at a couple of my books and saw his name on them.
I have no particular affinity to any designer. I didn't recognize your name either. And just now see that you have worked on some FR stuff as well. The only names I remember off the top of my head that have done work on Forgotten Realms is Ed Greenwood and Elaine Cunningham. I remember really enjoying her books. Ed...ah man...Ed made an interesting world for sure, but to really run the realms you have to decide what stuff you are going to emphasis and what parts you are going to change.
I couldn't tell you what products Eric has worked on, but as that he has worked on a bunch of them I would like to assume that he made some good contributions, even if there may be stuff I dislike. I think it is fair to thank him for that.
Anyway, instead of me having to figure out what the longstanding stuff is on the forum about fans, George, and Eric, could someone just summarize it for the new guy?
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
RoZK is a fun / frustrating product. I like the timeline's "alternate take" on events, but the overall timeline was pretty messed up.
The way I rationalize it in my brain is the RoZK timeline is clearly propaganda, and someone (Fzoul? Manshoon?) wished to portray themselves as in power for longer than what was really true. That allows the DM to enjoy the story but get the dates right as Ed had originally envisioned.
How did that happen then? And why not do an actual patch on the continuity later to fix it? Either to overwrite it or to implement your mental patch? |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2021 : 15:28:38
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There was a correction, of sorts, in the GHofR on page 128:
"1261 DR Year of Bright Dreams
Manshoon claims his seat on the Zhent council. He then founds the secret organization of the Zhentarim."
That clarifies that he is only a council member on 1261 and not the overall ruler of Zhentil Keep.
The next mention is his involvement in the taking of the Darkhold.
That could leave his true rise to power in the 1300s as listed in Ed's articles and discussed here. There is some logic to that. I can see him using his success at the Darkhold as a means to silence his naysayers. I can also see Fzoul trying to elevate his level of participation to try and limit the prestige Manshoon was getting from it and thus blunt Manshoon's use of the seizure of the Darkhold to Manshoon's political advantage.
Edit: Also, Manshoon wouldn't have necessarily have to had died many times for it to affect his plans. If he died at a critical juncture to his plans, his next clone may have to pick up the pieces of something he has no idea about. That could easily extend the amount of time it took to gather power.
Also-Also, the spell description lists that the new clone will have one point less of Constitution and the spell won't work if someone has only a 1 CON. With a listed CON of 16, that makes it a maximum of 15 generations of clones (assuming no magic is used to permanently increase CON). Manshoon would likely have dozens of clones of each generation with an associated cache of magic for each one.
Another Edit: Nevermind about the previous also-also. He could have had one clone create multiple scrolls of wish before offing himself. That way, as each clone awakens, it reaches for a scroll of wish and boosts its CON to 16. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Edited by - TheIriaeban on 28 Aug 2021 16:51:27 |
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Manshoon is an Idiot & How to Explain that in Game
