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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Aug 2021 : 16:24:33
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Any claim that the nebulous editors mandated that Manshoon had to twirl his moustache is somewhat suspicious in light of Larloch and Telamont's treatment. Akhlaur and Szass were treated with more respect and dignity, and this was when Tam decided to go on full omnicidal maniac.
Mr Greenwood is just really bad at writing villains. Manshoon could be substituted with Dr Claw, and nothing would change. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2021 : 15:00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
How did that happen then? And why not do an actual patch on the continuity later to fix it? Either to overwrite it or to implement your mental patch?
It always depended on:
a) Did I have a reasonable opportunity? (WoTC would pick the products.)
b) Did I have time to figure stuff out / research it? (Oftentimes there were tight deadlines.)
In this case, I never worked on a Moonsea product. However, George and I fixed hundreds of things over the years as we went.
--Eric
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2021 : 17:48:43
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Hello Eric!
Thank you for your responses!
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
b) Did I have time to figure stuff out / research it? (Oftentimes there were tight deadlines.)
How tight, generally speaking, was the time from time that you knew you were working on a project to when the copy had to be completed?
What was the longest amount of time you ever had to work on a project?
What was the shortest? |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 03:46:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
There is also the danger, if enough time passes, that he makes a new clone, dies, and the clone that wakes up doesn't know that his previous self made the new clone. So you would potentially end up with Manshoon clones that are years and years behind, simply because the rest of the clones waking up didn�t know that the clone existed and never updated them, and then suddenly that clone is the one waking up.
Do we know whether they needed to be updated one by one or any one would suffice? I mean, all clones were already linked, after all.
Even if not, depends on how the stasis contingency sequence as such works. It could be sorting by the most recent update.
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
RoZK is a fun / frustrating product. I like the timeline's "alternate take" on events, but the overall timeline was pretty messed up.
The way I rationalize it in my brain is the RoZK timeline is clearly propaganda, and someone (Fzoul? Manshoon?) wished to portray themselves as in power for longer than what was really true.
Indeed, unreliable in-universe lore is classic and Ed-blessed (gleefully).
But why just one of them tinkering with official history, rather than many cooks?
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
He can try to secure it with magic, but just doing that would be stupid as hell.... anyone in security knows you have to do double security. So, spells on top of his own cipher or some other means to make it secure that can't be easily broken. His own cipher will generally mean he has to unbreak his own cipher (which perhaps he has a spell for that, but if he does, then he has to recover his spellbook first AND he has to make sure that that spellbook and that spell are not lost).
It should be not just magic, something that only he knows. As in, a spell that accepts key.
Of course, as magic need to be covered with obfuscation/misdirection, so is obfuscation/misdirection with magic. To rephrase Max Frei, Realmspace is full of two-bit diviners.
But that's far from an unique problem. What the clone thing changes is making more dynamic approaches difficult, as in he had to do it again and again, and could not change places until all clones know.
This suggests hiding great secrets within small secrets. E.g. his traveling spellbook is valuable loot, and thus at least some instances are likely to survive, but it would not be considered a key to his other secrets. That sort of thing. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 31 Aug 2021 04:03:32 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 09:43:53
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Any claim that the nebulous editors mandated that Manshoon had to twirl his moustache is somewhat suspicious in light of Larloch and Telamont's treatment. Akhlaur and Szass were treated with more respect and dignity, and this was when Tam decided to go on full omnicidal maniac.
Mr Greenwood is just really bad at writing villains. Manshoon could be substituted with Dr Claw, and nothing would change.
Well, you are welcome to think everyone involved in the process has been lying about he subject for the last 30 years, but since you have no new insight into the events, I'll go ahead and believe those that actually read Ed's pre-edit drafts.
Aklaur looked like a buffoon. He just happened to be one of two uber-powerful wizards - due only to their super secret pact - in a nation that should have had hundreds. The wizard-war acted like Halruaa had all apprentices and two teachers. Same story inverted.
Szass Tam was given better treatment because he was the pre-determined winner, because they wanted Ravenloft in the Realms. So interesting. Meanwhile, every other Zulkir - 9 in all - are made to look like idiots, whose mastery of their own school of magic (as archmages) is dwarfed by a lich and his mcguffin. One literally "dies" by jumping of a cliff because Tams say so - JOKE. Those 3 books had more awfully written archmages and any 5 other series combined.
There have been very few Realms villains that have been given any good treatment in novels. Even when they do, they end up being heroes instead, because subtlety is frowned upon and the bad guy always has sterling motivations. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 12:20:29
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"There have been very few Realms villains that have been given any good treatment in novels. Even when they do, they end up being heroes instead, because subtlety is frowned upon and the bad guy always has sterling motivations."
I know I say this a lot, but read The Simbul's Gift. The zulkirs in it are treated with reverence, with multiple layers and motivations and definitely not idiots. Given they are up against the Simbul and Alustriel is involved etc you would expect them to get their butts handed to them, but it is just great in terms of writing the villains. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 12:25:35
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| Also Szass takes a back seat because he's in hiding after a vicious defeat. His cameo appearance is very memorable however. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 14:19:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Szass Tam was given better treatment because he was the pre-determined winner, because they wanted Ravenloft in the Realms. So interesting. Meanwhile, every other Zulkir - 9 in all - are made to look like idiots, whose mastery of their own school of magic (as archmages) is dwarfed by a lich and his mcguffin. One literally "dies" by jumping of a cliff because Tams say so - JOKE. Those 3 books had more awfully written archmages and any 5 other series combined.
You mean the same Szass Tam who has consistently been portrayed as the most powerful of the Zulkirs?
What Mr Greenwood is good in is short stories and worldbuilding. In contrast, he's not really a good novelist, which is consistent even with books outside of the Realms - the Falconfar saga, for instance. There's an Elminster book where the climatic battle with Manshoon is reduced to the latter showing up to get blown to bits in a kamikaze attack by a lich infatuated with Elminster, for example.
This isn't exactly something new. There is a startling contrast between every other portrayal of Telamont Tanthul and the the writing in the book where he dies. And then there's Larloch, who...ends up gloating while Elminster rolls his eyes.
It's just Mr Greenwood's writing style. That's not a knock against him; Mr Greenwood's strengths are in world-building, so blaming some hidden cabal of editors for, well, what seems to be a consistent theme in his writing is kind of bizarre. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 16:05:14
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Szass Tam was given better treatment because he was the pre-determined winner, because they wanted Ravenloft in the Realms. So interesting. Meanwhile, every other Zulkir - 9 in all - are made to look like idiots, whose mastery of their own school of magic (as archmages) is dwarfed by a lich and his mcguffin. One literally "dies" by jumping of a cliff because Tams say so - JOKE. Those 3 books had more awfully written archmages and any 5 other series combined.
You mean the same Szass Tam who has consistently been portrayed as the most powerful of the Zulkirs?
What Mr Greenwood is good in is short stories and worldbuilding. In contrast, he's not really a good novelist, which is consistent even with books outside of the Realms - the Falconfar saga, for instance. There's an Elminster book where the climatic battle with Manshoon is reduced to the latter showing up to get blown to bits in a kamikaze attack by a lich infatuated with Elminster, for example.
This isn't exactly something new. There is a startling contrast between every other portrayal of Telamont Tanthul and the the writing in the book where he dies. And then there's Larloch, who...ends up gloating while Elminster rolls his eyes.
It's just Mr Greenwood's writing style. That's not a knock against him; Mr Greenwood's strengths are in world-building, so blaming some hidden cabal of editors for, well, what seems to be a consistent theme in his writing is kind of bizarre.
Look at it this way: Take the best player on a basketball team. Then have that one player play a team of the 5 next best. That player would lose every time. No question.
Was Tam always depicted as the most powerful? Yes.
Had he ever been described as more powerful than the collected and concerted might of every other red wizard in Thay? No. Because that is just stupid. It is just lazy storytelling.
Also, if you think the sacrifice in Spellguard was because the lich was infatuated with Elminster, read it again. It was about conduct, and the duty of a host to her guests, which I thought was a fun way to tie arcane real-world practices to the Realms. Sarahel could no more have chosen to allow El's destruction than she could have chosen to not be Netherese.
I only point this out because that entire book was about the measured use of one's power, which is a major question posed by the implications of powerful wizards in the world (and is a theme EG has touched on several times since). It also is, arguably, Manshoon's biggest weakness. His amorality does not allow him to believe his magic should ever be constrained.
EDIT: Also, since the Simbul's gift was mentioned, why in the world would you march off to fight big bad god-undead without cashing in THAT chip. Liches don't fare too well against silver fire. |
Edited by - The Masked Mage on 31 Aug 2021 20:00:25 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 16:09:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
"There have been very few Realms villains that have been given any good treatment in novels. Even when they do, they end up being heroes instead, because subtlety is frowned upon and the bad guy always has sterling motivations."
I know I say this a lot, but read The Simbul's Gift. The zulkirs in it are treated with reverence, with multiple layers and motivations and definitely not idiots. Given they are up against the Simbul and Alustriel is involved etc you would expect them to get their butts handed to them, but it is just great in terms of writing the villains.
Did you miss the whole part where Enchantment is a misunderstood good guy with complex motivations deep down (I oversimplify as a form of hyperbole). He's basically a hero at the end, though I would agree, his character is infinitely more interesting than Tam's in the Undead books. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 18:13:58
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On the Simbul's Gift being a wonderful write for villain's, I have to very much agree. I equate this to the author's work in the thieve's world series, which was great for the same thing. I also loved that Szass is shown in said novel as on his heels. That representation of Lauzoril presented him as human in more ways than one, especially that he's more than a mage... he had a family and he was working to protect them. That's something that so often gets forgotten by authors, that everyone has SOMEONE that they care about. It may be blood relations. It may be a friend or lover. But very few people in this life truly have "noone". I can buy that with a few individuals (such as Larloch), but not every villain should be treated this way.
On Szass Tam in his portrayal in the Thayan Civil War (never was happy with that btw)... some points I've made in the past, though only to "fix" things.
Tam is portrayed in a short story "Red Ambition" in Realms of Magic. In it, he is involved with a temple of Leira that holds a crown that makes one's heart never stop beating.. so when he puts it on, it brings him great pain (hmmm, aftereffects of being affected by such magics?). The point of it is to show that Leira is more ruthless than him. So, Leira (conceivably a goddess who may serve Mystra to some degree) doesn't like Tam or is at least messing with him.
He received a cursed ARTIFACT (not simple magic item mind you) from Larloch (i.e. the Death Moon Orb). This artifact would affect your behavior, turning you more and more to Chaos and Evil, performing increasingly evil acts and becoming monstrously cruel and wicked. The curse says that it would lead most such people eventually to death, unless they were already dead, like Tam (it doesn't mean he's unaffected). Larloch is supposedly a chosen of Mystryl and thus may have leanings towards serving her still.
Tam's alignment in Unapproachable East and all earlier products is listed as NE. Therefore, the Death Moon Orb, being an artifact, should be pushing Tam towards Chaos.
Tam's scheme to enslave Eltab goes awry, due to some involvement with the Chosen of Mystra (i.e. the Witch Queen of Aglarond sics some adventurers onto his plots). Eltab and Tam go after each other, and while Eltab flees, Tam is notedly portrayed as affected by the encounter and having to appear much more deathly before his fellow Zulkirs in Simbul's Gift.
Shortly after that Tam fails on implementing his grand scheme to enslave Eltab.... his "known enemy" Velsharoon, a renegade red wizard (so former red wizard forced to leave), manages not to oust him from his seat as Zulkir of Necromancy. His enemy BECOMES THE GOD OF NECROMANCY. Velsharoon also becomes a servant of Mystra, and a possible spy within the ranks of Shar. Perhaps he even "picks on" his former enemy? Maybe makes his spells that allow him to appear "human" start to fail randomly? As he loses his "humanity", he begins to lose his "sanity"?
SOMEONE introduces "the Tome of Fastrin the Delver" to the Zulkir of Transmutation, Druxus Rhym, who looks at the book and its claims that you can build some towers and draw upon energy and remake the whole world and have the power of a god like being. He's fascinated by the theories, but he says they won't work. As a transmuter, he sees some kind of flaw in the transformation ritual, but he's fascinated by the "science" of it. He shows it to Tam, perhaps thinking that the two of them can figure out the issue and advance magic. Tam looks at the book and is convinced that the ritual will work. Yep, he too can become a god... just like his enemy Velsharoon... but a more powerful one... yep, because there's no trick hidden in that transmutation spell... nope, not a single trick or deception. Yep, that Tome of Fastrin the Delver's absolutely not a manifestation of Leira's power in book form (who had absolutely not recently manifested herself in another book form as the Cyrinishad) with the aid of Deneir, god of books and spellbooks, and possible would be servant of Mystra.
The events of the Thayan Civil War happen, but possibly not all Zulkirs "die" as the writer would make one think. For instance, we never see Lauzoril die. He jumps off a cliff... big deal... feather fall, fly, levitate.... We see Yaphyll "die", but only after she splits herself in two and sends a version of herself forward in time and encounters the spellplague and makes a prophecy... so possibly that version survived, just not on Toril. We never see Mythrella'a die on stage, but for some reason everyone is believing her name is Mythrellan... almost like she faked her death and used a spell to make everyone think her name was something different. We never see Lallara Mediocros die at all, so presumably she was still alive. We see Dmitra Flass die, but it was just as the spellplague was occurring, any chance she had a clone in waiting or some other means of survival?
Many red wizards leave Thay, spreading their knowledge of magic across Faerun (and possibly to other continents that go to Abeir? ::cough:: Fort Flame ::cough::)
Spellplague happens. The cursed artifact which had affected Tam blows up in his hand (possibly making its effects incurable and pushing him further towards depravity and evil?)
Fast Forward a hundred years. Tam plans to implement a great magic ritual centered on some Towers spread around Thay meant to "draw upon the magic of the land".... at the center of which is a great and powerful artifact (insert the idea of Ed's Athora)... However, the ritual is implemented not by Tam, but rather by a subordinate, Malark Springhill, who is himself not UNDEAD but instead IMMORTAL (not just slow aging mind you) due to a potion of eternal youth..... and then this IMMORTAL being is sacrificed (I mean is killed, yeah, that's it)... and then events start occurring ... almost like something was kicked off... "Mystra" somehow "returned to life"... almost like some big ritual had drawn a whole bunch of energy related to make and drained it into the weave. Oh, and Tam can't redo that ritual using Thay, because whatever "power" had been there is drained, and now he needs to find a new place of power to use the ritual whispered of in the Tome of Fastrin the Delver.
Wow, its ALMOST like Tam's whole last century has been the gods manipulating him into performing some ritual in order to rebirth the goddess of magic and he didn't even know it..... all with possibly gods with an affinity of some sort to Mystra helping it occur (Savras, Leira, Velsharoon, Deneir)....
Odd too that around that time, he was confronted with not one, but two methods of immortality (one via Malark, the other via the crown that his apprentice/lover/compatriot Frodyne would have gotten in the temple of Leira).... almost as if someone was hedging bets and introducing people with chances for immortality around Szass Tam. Hmmm, and some would believe that Tam himself had obtained immortality (rumors of khaledshran, an elixir of immortality derived from the precious divine blood of the dead deity Re that is given to the incarnations of Horus-Re are in Tyrants in Scarlet). Almost like an immortal being had to cast the ritual found in the Tome of Fastrin the Delver.
meanwhile other gods may have been manipulating Cyric (Mask, Leira, Deneir, Savras).... into entering Dweomerheart during the time that the worlds would collide. Almost like the colliding of Abeir and Toril wasn't so much the result of Mystra dying, but events set in motion to occur at that time for some reason. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 01 Sep 2021 01:06:36 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 19:12:32
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| Oh, do they killed Saharel? What a bummer... there goes another character that I actually liked destroyed to pave the 5e Realms... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 19:54:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Oh, do they killed Saharel? What a bummer... there goes another character that I actually liked destroyed to pave the 5e Realms...
No
She was introduced as an arch-lich that sacrifices her undeath to save Elminster (this is a special power of archliches - like, sacrifice your undeath for a wish effect). Then she was brought back as a spirit. To my knowledge the spirit is still there.
This all happened way back during the moment of the Time of Troubles where Mystra 1.0 was dead and Mystra 2.0 had not yet ascended and Elminster was holding her power, and as a result could not defend himself from the likes of Manshoon. |
Edited by - The Masked Mage on 31 Aug 2021 19:56:35 |
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Manshoon is an Idiot & How to Explain that in Game
