quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas
Now, had they gone through, made changes because the spellplague happened, followed by the second sundering, and we've got all this story to go with it.... I would have been interested to see what they did. I totally get why they didn't though, because that's a massive lift, and most people wouldn't be interested.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheIriaeban

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas
Now, had they gone through, made changes because the spellplague happened, followed by the second sundering, and we've got all this story to go with it.... I would have been interested to see what they did. I totally get why they didn't though, because that's a massive lift, and most people wouldn't be interested.

---

George convinced me to do that with Iriaebor. That is part of why it isn't finished yet. I do have the more grotesque of the Night Parade going public, pretending to be Plaguechanged and they had the idea of trying to take over the Order of Blue Flame for their own uses. That didn't really go much further than Iriaebor, though. Maybe if the Night Parade in other cities had agreed to do the same, it may have had an impact. But, they each had their own problems to deal with.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Krashos

They don't sell. Books like that, I mean. Sure, they sell a few copies but nowhere near what adventures sell (because most DMs are time poor and like ready made that they can play as is or adapt for their own campaign) or crunch option books. Sourcebooks are bought by lorehounds and DMs - both of whom are minority populations in an already minority population (do you know how much hate or at least disinterest there is for the Realms out there in the greater gamer population?). That view has been hammered home to me by the DMs Guild. Why isn't the Border Kingdoms book anywhere up there in terms of sales? The excellent Moonshae work done by Eric Menge and Co? Where are all the hardcore Realms fans to buy the stuff Eric Boyd has put up there? He's not cracked 1000 sales on either of the two things he's done (third one in the works atm) as I understand, and at a massive $4 a pop - not that he's doing it for the money: the revenue is being ploughed back into art/mapping for other, bigger planned products. The top selling $5 and under product is a generic piece on "Ancestral Weapons" (which looks good and appears very well done). In fact there isn't a Realms product in the Top 10. Ironically, in terms of the DMs Guild generally - for world-specific titles - Eberron is kicking Elminster in the patootie. Products like the ones you have suggested, for the Realms, just don't sell.

-- George Krashos

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by keftiu

My Eberron book is entirely lore and sold quite handsomely (Gold Best-Seller!), as have Keith’s lore-heavy books for the setting :)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gelcur

While I have your ear on DMsGuild projects, was the project mentioned here ever released?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Well, Chris Perkins has done some statements about canon in the D&D Blog. You can read it here, if you're interested. IMHO, this was some sort of damage control, trying to fix the mess created by Crawford's statements.

In summary:
-Each edition of D&D has its own canon (so 3e isn't canon to 5e, for instance, but it's canon for itself), as does each videogame, novel series (so, the Drizzt's novels aren't beholden by the 5e canon, or viceversa), and comics line. Each home campaign also has its own canon.

-The goal is to ensure players don't feel they have to do research of 50 years of canon in order to play.

-The canon is for their products' consistency, not about spoiling the fun of the games.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I for one, I'm happy that 4e has a different canon than 5e, and the Drizzt's novels aren't canon for any of these canons, lol.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted byZeromaru X
I for one, I'm happy that 4e has a different canon than 5e, and the Drizzt's novels aren't canon for any of these canons, lol.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by keftiu
There are dozens of us! :p

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I for one, I'm happy that 4e has a different canon than 5e, and the Drizzt's novels aren't canon for any of these canons, lol.

---

quote:

---

The most important reason why we maintain our own continuity, separate from other expressions and earlier editions of D&D, is to lessen the burden on DMs. It’s not that we insist on creating everything ourselves; rather, we don’t want DMs or players to feel like they must read a novel, play a video game, or buy a third-edition sourcebook to enjoy our game and get the most out of our current line of products.

---

quote:

---

Fifth edition’s canon includes every bit of lore that appears in the most up-to-date printings of the fifth edition Player’s Handbook, Monster Manual, and Dungeon Master’s Guide. Beyond these core rulebooks, we don’t have a public-facing account of what is canonical in fifth edition because we don’t want to overload our fellow creators and business partners.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by questing gm

Some thoughts on what Chris Perkins said:

quote:

---

The most important reason why we maintain our own continuity, separate from other expressions and earlier editions of D&D, is to lessen the burden on DMs. It’s not that we insist on creating everything ourselves; rather, we don’t want DMs or players to feel like they must read a novel, play a video game, or buy a third-edition sourcebook to enjoy our game and get the most out of our current line of products.

---

Has anyone ever felt 'like they must read a novel, play a video game, or buy a third-edition sourcebook to enjoy our game and get the most out of our current line of products.'? Sounds to me like most of us can agree that our canon starts and ends where we want the canon to be. Has anyone actively not run or play a FR campaign until they have done their homework? (not a rhetoric, actually curious)

Who are these DMs being burdened?

quote:

---

Fifth edition’s canon includes every bit of lore that appears in the most up-to-date printings of the fifth edition Player’s Handbook, Monster Manual, and Dungeon Master’s Guide. Beyond these core rulebooks, we don’t have a public-facing account of what is canonical in fifth edition because we don’t want to overload our fellow creators and business partners.

---

Interesting. I guess even the 5E adventure modules are also not considered canon now? This also sounds like 5e canon is now in stasis since nothing can/will overwrite the core rulebooks until a new edition is released.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PattPlays
As a DM playing 5e in 1487, I have been researching specifically for this campaign in the Delimbyr vale (modified and shuffled Out of the Abyss) for literally over a year. Basically two years. More if you count the questions I asked about OOTA lore in 2016.
I have been researching to provide more context for this campaign (which by lore is supposed to happen in the 1480's despite 5e starting in 1491) and it's ..... it's just abject chaos. They were underground for the first year of gameplay but I am still catching up in various ways to provide information and context that is accurate to the realms.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PattPlays
It has been an absolutely chaotic ride and some of my players have picked up on just how nonsensical it is to play during the second sundering itself, but it's still fun.
I have not had to read a novel, but that's only because I have the internet. I cannot count how many times I found a single line from a book here or on the wiki that has completely reshaped my understanding of an element of lore I deem highly relevant for my DMing.

Not taking a stance- just saying that I am an example of someone who is actively trying to catch up and learn every day of this campaign and every day between sessions. There are endless questions about 1487, and that's just one year. Nothing about realmslore is simple to me.

I wanted to know what the ancestry of a Luskan human npc I made was, and that sent me on a literal eight hour research binge following language groups, old empires, foreign continents, island campaigns, and I still don't know where the Ruathyr raiders came from originally!

Also, I only ended up asking those questions because I was researching elven high magic, which led me to the high moor which I had not remembered being part of elven high magic- and highstar lake itself is-

stuff is crazy. Nothing about my research into the forgotten realms has felt simple- or rather every single new thing I learn complicates it further. I appreciate it, but, I absolutely agree that the books and the games have a soft barrier at times and a hard barrier at others.

Again. In the books Drizzt kills demogorgon. In your campaign, Drizz't isn't going to showup and kill demogorgon. Also, you likely aren't playing during the right year for out of the abyss anyway if you're using default 5e rules.

According to every source, the rage of demons that Out of the Abyss is supposed to take place in the 1480's. That means no weave! That means no Anauroch desert! That means plaguewrought lands! That means NO GODS TALK TO THEIR CLERICS! Trying to run this game during the time period it is supposed to take place in is entirely maddening in a way I enjoy- but YEEESH! Nothing about any of this is simple! I enjoy it, but I only speak for myself.

tl;dr If this forum didn't exist


I would literally have to buy the books.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PattPlays
I have learned key info from random shared quotes from the books here and afar that completely helped shape my use of the realms. I would have no idea what is happening east of the Greypeak mountains otherwise. No DM should feel like they have to have google-fu to learn what I know, nor should they have to read books. Luckily, I think I have asked questions about lore that nobody else who started playing dnd in fifth edition has ever asked. I've been on this forum since 2016 asking the same stupid questions because I've been coming at this stuff from a blank slate perspective. It's been fun, but it very well could have not been fun.

Realmslore is chaotic and I don't think a single piece of media from here-on-out should be considered necessary to run the realms. There is an endless backlog of lore to pour through in multimedia.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PattPlays
PS: One more tirade! The Rage of Demons was an event spread across multiple D&D game materials. There was the 5e campaign, which was strangely sparse on details concerning Baphomet and the World Engine. This seems to be because part of that lore happened in the MMO. Likewise, an expansion to an isometric realms game held the missing lore about Orcus and the elder brain Zyrog. I tracked down youtube footage of that DLC expansion of that strange little game, and all that was there for me was a stupid looking boss fight. If this were the standard going forward, random game developers would have been repeatedly given lore to put in their games (said game devs can absolutely drop the ball, there was nothing about Orcus! The OOTA adventure module LITERALLY goes "haha orcus is a thing, but you have to play this game to see what he does in 'the east' and then it's just an elder brain boss fight with useless dialogue and no Orcus, and then Drizz't leaves your party to kill demogorgon off screen."). If the rage of demons multimedia platform had worked, then we may actually have 5e that continued the previous editions methods of trying to spread out the lore over multiple items.

But, the rage of demons seems to have been an abject failure and OOTA is the only thing anyone ever talks about. Not many people even talked about Archmage from my research. Going the way of the books and the games being split is important, because another Rage of Demons would have been catastrophic. Before the Rage of Demons, DND 5e was still in its infancy. Since the explosion of DND Beyond's sales and the continued success of Critical Role, DND 5e has had more on the line each year to lose with new-coming players. For every new player that comes in from popular modern D&D media there are more players who know nothing of realmslore that have to be able to be entertained straight out of the module.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by questing gm

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Well, Chris Perkins has done some statements about canon in the D&D Blog. You can read it here, if you're interested. IMHO, this was some sort of damage control, trying to fix the mess created by Crawford's statements.

In summary:
-Each edition of D&D has its own canon (so 3e isn't canon to 5e, for instance, but it's canon for itself), as does each videogame, novel series (so, the Drizzt's novels aren't beholden by the 5e canon, or viceversa), and comics line. Each home campaign also has its own canon.

-The goal is to ensure players don't feel they have to do research of 50 years of canon in order to play.

-The canon is for their products' consistency, not about spoiling the fun of the games.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PattPlays

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I for one, I'm happy that 4e has a different canon than 5e, and the Drizzt's novels aren't canon for any of these canons, lol.

---

It really shouldn't be too surprising. Drizz't kills demogorgon in 1486 during the rage of demons.
Then in 1491+ adventurers using SCAG rules kill demogorgon in out of the abyss.

Campaigns and the books have never agreed in and since the transitional period.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sleyvas



Wait, seriously? I'm STILL catching up on those 4e years where I quit reading new stuff and was just going back to old books. Somewhere in there they had Drizz't kill demogorgon?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

dead and gone, never to return or influence anything again.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by questing gm

Has anyone ever felt 'like they must read a novel, play a video game, or buy a third-edition sourcebook to enjoy our game and get the most out of our current line of products.'? Sounds to me like most of us can agree that our canon starts and ends where we want the canon to be. Has anyone actively not run or play a FR campaign until they have done their homework? (not a rhetoric, actually curious)

Who are these DMs being burdened?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PattPlays

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

dead and gone, never to return or influence anything again.

---

His blood has literally flown down the "hart"blood river for centuries from where he fell and there are extremely intricate lich stories set up in Karsefall. He's been entrenched into the lore and is a huge part of the high forest. Though, one could very easily hand waive that away and say that these are rumors stirred up by said evil liches warding off threats to their power, and that it is actually a river named after four legged mammals and not a bleeding stone heart in the Star Mounts.
Though that does still leave those spooky trees....

---