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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Jul 2021 : 22:50:04
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@ZeromaruX
I kinda have the impression that we're talking past each other (or trying to address different points).
In any case, to clear any misunderstanding about my personal position on this, I understand why you don't care about the decanonization. I stopped caring too, and the low quality of the new lore made it a rather spontaneous process. The only thing that I still care for and that I feel strongly about in the Realms are a few characters, especially Eilistraee, due to personal reasons related to personal events.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I understand that. And in that case, decanonizing it is better than destroying it, as with decanonization that stuff is never referenced again, and not touched again. It remains in its pristine state before it was decanonized, and cannot be modified or destroyed in canon materials (as keftiu said, you should be happy). Really, the only thing is that is most likely (and is just that, a most likely possibility) will be not used or referenced in a future product. But given that you dislike what they do with their products, isn't that a good thing?
Heh, that's wishful thinking at best. When WotC will want to use older stuff, they will, and they will do so with 0 respect. The only difference is that, with decanonization, the older stuff is now a bit like the Schrodinger cat: you don't know whether it's there or not, or how it's like, until WotC comes around using it (if they ever do).
Either way, it's still taking away stuff, and that will still tick invested readers off.
quote:
A. They bought the setting to modify it to their needs (well, that was TSR, but WotC bought TSR and all its stuff). It would be dumb if they didn't used the setting as they needed just to please a minority.
B. Given that ALL 5e books are best-sellers and the sells of these books surpasses by a wide margin the sells of all the earlier editions combined, this means a lot of people like their changes and only a minority dislike it. They are taking away just the "likes" of a minority. Because, yes, we are the minority here. And most people here even don't buy the books since, like, 14 years ago, lol
Does this means I approve of their changes? Not at all. Heck, I've been vocal about my dislike of what they did with the 4e lore in 5e. I agree with rangerstranger, they shouldn't have lured the old greybeards with promises of "returning to the great old days" just to break those promises when the people who actually buys their products (the ones who make all their books be best-selling in less that a day --it happened with the Fizban book: it entered the top 10 best-sellers of Amazon within hours) became aware of all the problematic stuff of the old D&D in general that 4e had hidden with its changes to the lore. Because, even if heavy-handed and poorly executed, 4e did those changes for a reason.
Sure, I agree with you on this too.
However, none of it changes the fact that the WotC team didn't and doesn't want to progress the existing story, that their changes are heavily influenced by their personal preference or rule of cool and not by a solid narrative vision based on what came before, that this is disrespectful of the work of the ones who built the setting, and that it explains the vehement reaction of people.
Even if you have the right to be disrespectful of a setting because you bought it, you're still being disrespectful, and that will still tick off people attached to the setting.
The fact that most new people, with little to no investment in the setting, are ok with the new approach, doesn't change the reaction of the ones who are invested in the setting. If the new people end up getting attached to something, and the future teams will destroy or decanonize it, the new people will probably be pissed too.
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Ohh, this happened way before the decanonization. It began with the SCAG and its "let's make the Realms great again" motto.
You're right, the novelty is that they're just kinda rubbing salt in the wound. Their announcement was pointless: they could have simply given the cop out answer of "canon is whatever you want, don't feel forced to read anything", rather than "oh, we don't consider any of the previous lore canon". If you rub salt in the wound, people get pissed. This wasn't too smart as a PR move IMO. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 Jul 2021 22:55:09 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 00:00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
B. Given that ALL 5e books are best-sellers and the sells of these books surpasses by a wide margin the sells of all the earlier editions combined, this means a lot of people like their changes and only a minority dislike it. They are taking away just the "likes" of a minority. Because, yes, we are the minority here. And most people here even don't buy the books since, like, 14 years ago, lol
I would disagree with this point. We cannot assume that more sales means people like the changes -- RPGs are more popular now, across the board. It's not changes to the setting driving sales, it's that geeky things are no longer shunned the way they once were. It's the legacy of the Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings movies, and the Game of Thrones show, and MMOs and video games getting more popular.
WotC is riding an existing wave, they're not defining it.
Yes, we are a minority, here. I'll agree on that.
But I'll disagree that their changes to the setting are popular -- most people don't know there are changes. They're seeing this stuff for the first time. They don't know things were changed; they don't even know there was a "before" or even that there's more than what's in the handful of new books.
People aren't buying changes to the setting. They're buying adventure books that happen to be in a knockoff version of the setting we love. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 01:55:33
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| Can we be so sure? I mean, people is clamoring to change stuff like the lore of the orcs and drow, so they are aware that there are changes and that there was a before. And people like the changes to those stuff, meaning they like the changes and are buying the changes. Sadly, among these changes are the changes to the setting, as well. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 02:33:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Can we be so sure? I mean, people is clamoring to change stuff like the lore of the orcs and drow, so they are aware that there are changes and that there was a before. And people like the changes to those stuff, meaning they like the changes and are buying the changes. Sadly, among these changes are the changes to the setting, as well.
Given that even 10 years ago, you weren't going to find D&D stuff at Target, then yes, I think we can safely say that RPGs have become far more popular than they were.
And that's core material, not material that claims to be set in a setting that's been mangled to accommodate it.
Plus, orcs and drow are common D&D critters, generally described the same across settings. While people have said these two need to be changed, there haven't been huge complaints that the Realms or any other setting needed to be changed -- just a couple of core elements that happen to be in the Realms. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Jul 2021 02:48:36 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 03:57:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Delnyn
As far as the issue of "canon", would you kindly consider this perspective? All our FR campaigns have individual tweaks and quirks that differentiate themselves from every other FR campaign. When you superimpose all these divergent campaigns, each of the individual differences randomly control each other. The aggregate result may have fuzzy boundaries, but is easily recognizable and converges to something with well-defined features. This aggregate is the stand-in for what we could call "canon".
Note how this aggregate version allows for deviations, but not excessively so. At the end of the day, my campaign will differ from your campaign, but we will recognize each other's campaign as clearly FR. We both recognize the margins of reasonable deviations and do not push past them.
-Yep, this is a great/better explanation for what I was saying before.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh gods, that's been a mess.
Yeah, the original TSR was bought by Wizards of the Coast.
Much later, this new company came along, and saw that TSR was no longer a registered name, and they grabbed it. This one, for simplicity, is TSR2. They published Gygax Magazine, and Luke and Ernie Gygax were part of it. Eventually, there was some dispute, the magazine ended, and the Gygaxes left the company. Then the guy holding the trademark accidently let it lapse, and Ernie Gygax jumped on it, and used it for his new company -- TSR3, for simplicity.
TSR3 licensed the name TSR Games back to TSR2.
TSR3 then made a lot of claims, including that they had a lot of original TSR people aboard, and even that they were the original TSR.
Then a lot of stuff started happening. Some of those original TSR people that Ernie had claimed were aboard said they had no knowledge of this.
Then Ernie Gygax gave an interview where he made transphobic comments.
As the fecal matter hit the rotating ventilation device, he doubled down on his comments and blamed others for stirring up controversy. Then pretty much anyone associated with the name TSR bailed on it, someone got Ernie to shut up, TSR3 was renamed, and now things have quieted back down.
TSR2 also bailed on the name, because of the whole mess. So now there are no companies named TSR. Again.
-So what you're saying is that the TSR name is still out there and available and I should start TSR4. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 26 Jul 2021 03:58:58 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 11:06:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-So what you're saying is that the TSR name is still out there and available and I should start TSR4.
Heh. There are currently no companies named TSR (TSR3 is now Wonderfilled, I believe; I don't know what TSR2 is called), but the name is still held by TSR3 -- so they may try again, after the hubbub has died down, to put the name back in action. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 15:17:39
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| TSR2 is called Solarian Games now, IIRC. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 16:43:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
TSR2 is called Solarian Games now, IIRC.
Thank you. I knew I'd seen their new name, but I wasn't willing to wade through everything to find it again.
I kinda feel bad for the guy that owns that one. He found the name TSR was available, screwed up and lost it, had to license it back, and then had to abandon it. And aside from him forgetting to renew it and Gygax deciding to poach the name, everything that happened was beyond his control, and he got screwed. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Jul 2021 16:57:37 |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 17:02:19
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The author from Candlekeep Mysteries who got his adventure edited in that controversy some of you may remember weighed in on twitter, which I thought some of you might find interesting:
https://twitter.com/POCGamer/status/1419207581554253826
I think they make some good points there. WotC really should have kept a 'generic' setting around as a baseline default setting-PanzerLion suggests 'Points of Light', but I think name recognition alone probably sealed the deal on that one.
IMHO FR has sorta been turned into a shambling zombie of sorts. No setting should feel this empty and hazily defined so many years in as 5Es Realms, all the more damning because the lore and setting are things the Realms have been particularly well known for and liked for by its fans. Running a game in 5e Realms 'off the rails' from oen of the published adventures, I feel like I'd need to refer to my 2e and 3e material *heavily* to fill in the blanks, and at that point, why not just run a game in 3e or 2e? It's clear that WoTC sees the lore and setting as a cumbersome barrier, but its absence has left the Realms more than a bit empty, flavorless, and boring.
I have felt for a while that despite all of the promotion around the Sundering that 5e really did what WotC wanted to do with 4e-that is to 'wipe the slate clean' and reimagine the Realms as a more compact setting 'unburdened' by everything built up over previous editions. The main distinction is more a matter of PR to my eyes, end goal being much the same. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 17:58:45
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-I think he's way off, with his first point. My experience playing in a Forgotten Realms campaign, DMing in the Forgotten Realms, or being a "fanon content creator", at no point did I as either a player, DM, or writer feel that canon was an albatross around my neck that stifled my creativity.
-As a player, did canon prevent me from making up a character who would strain the believability of that particular game, a game where the DM had decades of experience playing in and detailing 'his' version of Forgotten Realms, one that used canon as a firm baseline for the world but diverged based on what the players in his games did (RIP Mike)? Yes, but that's okay! That's more than okay, actually. As a player, there is an understood unwritten, implied contract between the player and DM, and I understood the kind of game he ran and how serious I should be, how detailed I should be, how realistic I should be, and so on.
-As a DM, did canon prevent me from doing certain things? By my choice, sure. And that's okay! It was my choice. I chose to start a campaign in Calimport. I chose to use the books that detailed Calimport as a guide for my version of the Forgotten Realms, and as the default when I did not say otherwise. My players understood that, as there is an unwritten, implied contract between players and DM to not, you know, intentionally ruin and/or disrupt the game and they modeled their characters accordingly to make sense with what was presented in those sourcebooks detailing Caimport to the degree of detail that I and they all agreed on.
-As a "fanon content creator", did canon prevent me from doing certain things? Sure! And that's okay! I was playing in a sandbox that many other people had already played in and many others still were. Did that limit me, in that I couldn't create a race of Liquid Terminators that came out of a rocket ship from Uranus and conquered Cormyr before the Tuigan Horde, establishing a robocracy ruled by The Femputer (I mean, I guess I could've done that but it probably wouldn't have been taken too seriously)? As a "content creator" there is an implied understanding that you work within the framework of what was already established and that it's kind of disrespectful to just flip the table and spill someone else's chess pieces so that I can sit down and play my own game. But if I wanted complete free reign to do literally anything and everything, I would be playing detailing and fleshing out "LK Land", not "The Forgotten Realms".
-Agree with his second assertion that a lot of the problems that are existing in regards to all of this are WotC being schizophrenic when it comes to presenting the product as "an open sandbox" and "a walled garden", as he puts it. From an outsider's perspective, it's a weird problem for a company to have. It goes without saying and is implied that in your own games at home or whatever, you do whatever you want to do. I don't know why you would specifically keep that in mind when writing a pre-published world, the point of which is that people are going to use it as is and then modify it to their liking as they go. Having the rules and generic adventures divorced from specific worlds probably would help with this, yeah.
-And, of course, also agree that there is a lot of stagnation because of WotC's insistence to only focus on one or two particular areas. I get, with limited sourcebooks/adventures/articles/whatever it is that they publish nowadays that they aren't going to use their very limited bullets on the outlier societies of the setting- the Chults, the Kara-Turs, the Unthers, the Osses- because they don't capture the "essence" of the world, per se, but the "essence" of the Forgotten Realms is generic European fantasy and there are definitely a bunch of areas that are not the Sword Coast or Silver Marches or the Spine of the World that have that generic European fantasy flavor. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 18:26:39
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I personally have always felt that working in a shared setting makes me MORE creative.
It's easy enough to drop something into your own setting, when it's only in your head or some partial notes.
But trying to figure out how to fit something into an established setting? Coming up with something that fits the history and flavor of the setting, without breaking anything, and yet stays mostly truly to the vision of what you're trying to add? That takes more work, and it pushes you to find answers to questions you otherwise wouldn't have asked.
In my opinion, the end result is far better for having been more challenging.
Or to use another analogy I've used in the past... You're ten years old and looking to play outside. Where are you going to have more fun -- the open, empty field, or the playground that's designed for your fun? Does having a playground there limit your play in any way? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 19:55:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-I think he's way off, with his first point. My experience playing in a Forgotten Realms campaign, DMing in the Forgotten Realms, or being a "fanon content creator", at no point did I as either a player, DM, or writer feel that canon was an albatross around my neck that stifled my creativity.
Thing is, for every person who says something like what you said, I've known of two more persons who believe canon was an albatross. I guess it happens more with new players mostly, who for some reason believe they should know everything from the get go.
So really, just because it didn't happened to you, it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 20:38:33
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Of course, as I said, if the real issue was people feeling they had to catch up on everything, a series of gazetteers would have taken care of that. You might even be able to do just one, if you keep it focused on lore instead of stuffing in backgrounds and classes and feats all that rot.
Do it as a 96 page softbound book. Dedicate half to a quick overview of the setting, and half to the timeline from the OGB to the SCAG.
And then you have enough to adequately inform the newbies AND you've got another product to sell.
If you want to go more in-depth, keep cranking out those 96-page books, with a tighter focus for each. Gods and magic. Various peoples of the setting. Power groups of the setting. Regional books.
They could prolly get 5 or 6 books out of all that, if they wanted, purely from collating older material. (Assuming the regional books are broader areas)
New fans would buy it to learn the setting, and older fans would buy it to have the info collated instead of scattered across products from multiple editions.
And it's all more money in WotC's pocket.
Of course, that would require work to put together and it would mean the designers would be obligated to stick to canon... Which is, I am quite convinced, the reason they didn't do it. I doubt it was even considered. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Jul 2021 20:44:08 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 21:16:32
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| This has nothing to do with "people feeling they had to catch up on everything". This is a simple cost reduction decision. It takes time to research stuff. We all know that. So, if it takes someone 6 months of research to produce something, that is 6 months of the company paying that person to not produce anything for sale. Cut back on research and you have someone that can produce something for sale quicker. If WotC had put in the investment to put this information into a database so that research times were reduced to days instead of months, they wouldn't have any problem with making sure all their products were internally consistent while being being able to have them ready for sale in a cost-effective timeframe. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 22:14:38
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
This has nothing to do with "people feeling they had to catch up on everything". This is a simple cost reduction decision. It takes time to research stuff. We all know that. So, if it takes someone 6 months of research to produce something, that is 6 months of the company paying that person to not produce anything for sale. Cut back on research and you have someone that can produce something for sale quicker. If WotC had put in the investment to put this information into a database so that research times were reduced to days instead of months, they wouldn't have any problem with making sure all their products were internally consistent while being being able to have them ready for sale in a cost-effective timeframe.
Honestly, I don't think it was even that they didn't want to do research -- because even if they didn't have a complete library, they had the FR wiki, Ed and lorelords like Krash and Eric Boyd, and fan groups like us that could be pinged.
I think it was almost entirely about them wanting to do whatever they felt like, without any regard to what came before. They were essentially giving themselves a blank slate so they could cherry-pick from any published setting. They didn't want anything that said they couldn't have Easter eggs and pop culture references stuffed into a submarine or that they couldn't have Lathander torturing a vampiric follower that wanted a second chance.
It's all about them giving themselves the option to do what ever kewl things they think of. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Jul 2021 22:16:04 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2021 : 22:50:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
This has nothing to do with "people feeling they had to catch up on everything". This is a simple cost reduction decision. It takes time to research stuff. We all know that. So, if it takes someone 6 months of research to produce something, that is 6 months of the company paying that person to not produce anything for sale. Cut back on research and you have someone that can produce something for sale quicker. If WotC had put in the investment to put this information into a database so that research times were reduced to days instead of months, they wouldn't have any problem with making sure all their products were internally consistent while being being able to have them ready for sale in a cost-effective timeframe.
Honestly, I don't think it was even that they didn't want to do research -- because even if they didn't have a complete library, they had the FR wiki, Ed and lorelords like Krash and Eric Boyd, and fan groups like us that could be pinged.
I think it was almost entirely about them wanting to do whatever they felt like, without any regard to what came before. They were essentially giving themselves a blank slate so they could cherry-pick from any published setting. They didn't want anything that said they couldn't have Easter eggs and pop culture references stuffed into a submarine or that they couldn't have Lathander torturing a vampiric follower that wanted a second chance.
It's all about them giving themselves the option to do what ever kewl things they think of.
You just hit it on the head. The WotC guys were jealous. "Why can't we put in a gnome-designed submarine and name it after a movie sub?? Why do the novel guys get to have all the kewl? It is that dirty, nasty canon stuff, isn't it? Darn it, I want my Thousand Arrows sponsored orc roller derby team!" |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 13:24:18
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
This has nothing to do with "people feeling they had to catch up on everything". This is a simple cost reduction decision. It takes time to research stuff. We all know that. So, if it takes someone 6 months of research to produce something, that is 6 months of the company paying that person to not produce anything for sale. Cut back on research and you have someone that can produce something for sale quicker. If WotC had put in the investment to put this information into a database so that research times were reduced to days instead of months, they wouldn't have any problem with making sure all their products were internally consistent while being being able to have them ready for sale in a cost-effective timeframe.
Honestly, I don't think it was even that they didn't want to do research -- because even if they didn't have a complete library, they had the FR wiki, Ed and lorelords like Krash and Eric Boyd, and fan groups like us that could be pinged.
I think it was almost entirely about them wanting to do whatever they felt like, without any regard to what came before. They were essentially giving themselves a blank slate so they could cherry-pick from any published setting. They didn't want anything that said they couldn't have Easter eggs and pop culture references stuffed into a submarine or that they couldn't have Lathander torturing a vampiric follower that wanted a second chance.
It's all about them giving themselves the option to do what ever kewl things they think of.
You just hit it on the head. The WotC guys were jealous. "Why can't we put in a gnome-designed submarine and name it after a movie sub?? Why do the novel guys get to have all the kewl? It is that dirty, nasty canon stuff, isn't it? Darn it, I want my Thousand Arrows sponsored orc roller derby team!"
That reminds me, we need to discuss my addition of +1 wheeled shoes of fleetness to the world..... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 13:51:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Of course, as I said, if the real issue was people feeling they had to catch up on everything, a series of gazetteers would have taken care of that. You might even be able to do just one, if you keep it focused on lore instead of stuffing in backgrounds and classes and feats all that rot.
Do it as a 96 page softbound book. Dedicate half to a quick overview of the setting, and half to the timeline from the OGB to the SCAG.
And then you have enough to adequately inform the newbies AND you've got another product to sell.
If you want to go more in-depth, keep cranking out those 96-page books, with a tighter focus for each. Gods and magic. Various peoples of the setting. Power groups of the setting. Regional books.
They could prolly get 5 or 6 books out of all that, if they wanted, purely from collating older material. (Assuming the regional books are broader areas)
New fans would buy it to learn the setting, and older fans would buy it to have the info collated instead of scattered across products from multiple editions.
And it's all more money in WotC's pocket.
Of course, that would require work to put together and it would mean the designers would be obligated to stick to canon... Which is, I am quite convinced, the reason they didn't do it. I doubt it was even considered.
They don't sell. Books like that, I mean. Sure, they sell a few copies but nowhere near what adventures sell (because most DMs are time poor and like ready made that they can play as is or adapt for their own campaign) or crunch option books. Sourcebooks are bought by lorehounds and DMs - both of whom are minority populations in an already minority population (do you know how much hate or at least disinterest there is for the Realms out there in the greater gamer population?). That view has been hammered home to me by the DMs Guild. Why isn't the Border Kingdoms book anywhere up there in terms of sales? The excellent Moonshae work done by Eric Menge and Co? Where are all the hardcore Realms fans to buy the stuff Eric Boyd has put up there? He's not cracked 1000 sales on either of the two things he's done (third one in the works atm) as I understand, and at a massive $4 a pop - not that he's doing it for the money: the revenue is being ploughed back into art/mapping for other, bigger planned products. The top selling $5 and under product is a generic piece on "Ancestral Weapons" (which looks good and appears very well done). In fact there isn't a Realms product in the Top 10. Ironically, in terms of the DMs Guild generally - for world-specific titles - Eberron is kicking Elminster in the patootie. Products like the ones you have suggested, for the Realms, just don't sell.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 14:33:38
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Of course, as I said, if the real issue was people feeling they had to catch up on everything, a series of gazetteers would have taken care of that. You might even be able to do just one, if you keep it focused on lore instead of stuffing in backgrounds and classes and feats all that rot.
Do it as a 96 page softbound book. Dedicate half to a quick overview of the setting, and half to the timeline from the OGB to the SCAG.
And then you have enough to adequately inform the newbies AND you've got another product to sell.
If you want to go more in-depth, keep cranking out those 96-page books, with a tighter focus for each. Gods and magic. Various peoples of the setting. Power groups of the setting. Regional books.
They could prolly get 5 or 6 books out of all that, if they wanted, purely from collating older material. (Assuming the regional books are broader areas)
New fans would buy it to learn the setting, and older fans would buy it to have the info collated instead of scattered across products from multiple editions.
And it's all more money in WotC's pocket.
Of course, that would require work to put together and it would mean the designers would be obligated to stick to canon... Which is, I am quite convinced, the reason they didn't do it. I doubt it was even considered.
They don't sell. Books like that, I mean. Sure, they sell a few copies but nowhere near what adventures sell (because most DMs are time poor and like ready made that they can play as is or adapt for their own campaign) or crunch option books. Sourcebooks are bought by lorehounds and DMs - both of whom are minority populations in an already minority population (do you know how much hate or at least disinterest there is for the Realms out there in the greater gamer population?). That view has been hammered home to me by the DMs Guild. Why isn't the Border Kingdoms book anywhere up there in terms of sales? The excellent Moonshae work done by Eric Menge and Co? Where are all the hardcore Realms fans to buy the stuff Eric Boyd has put up there? He's not cracked 1000 sales on either of the two things he's done (third one in the works atm) as I understand, and at a massive $4 a pop - not that he's doing it for the money: the revenue is being ploughed back into art/mapping for other, bigger planned products. The top selling $5 and under product is a generic piece on "Ancestral Weapons" (which looks good and appears very well done). In fact there isn't a Realms product in the Top 10. Ironically, in terms of the DMs Guild generally - for world-specific titles - Eberron is kicking Elminster in the patootie. Products like the ones you have suggested, for the Realms, just don't sell.
-- George Krashos
Obviously, the problem is marketing. A "source book" is old and boring sounding. An "adventure guide", however, sounds promising. If the blurb says something about "allowing both the DM and the players to organically grow the adventure without the need for extensive preplanning. In an adventure, certain things have to happen in certain order. An adventure guide gives you the freedom to decide when things happen."
The tag line could be "Artesian, hand-crafted adventuring is available now!"  |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 15:40:40
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Of course, as I said, if the real issue was people feeling they had to catch up on everything, a series of gazetteers would have taken care of that. You might even be able to do just one, if you keep it focused on lore instead of stuffing in backgrounds and classes and feats all that rot.
Do it as a 96 page softbound book. Dedicate half to a quick overview of the setting, and half to the timeline from the OGB to the SCAG.
And then you have enough to adequately inform the newbies AND you've got another product to sell.
If you want to go more in-depth, keep cranking out those 96-page books, with a tighter focus for each. Gods and magic. Various peoples of the setting. Power groups of the setting. Regional books.
They could prolly get 5 or 6 books out of all that, if they wanted, purely from collating older material. (Assuming the regional books are broader areas)
New fans would buy it to learn the setting, and older fans would buy it to have the info collated instead of scattered across products from multiple editions.
And it's all more money in WotC's pocket.
Of course, that would require work to put together and it would mean the designers would be obligated to stick to canon... Which is, I am quite convinced, the reason they didn't do it. I doubt it was even considered.
They don't sell. Books like that, I mean. Sure, they sell a few copies but nowhere near what adventures sell (because most DMs are time poor and like ready made that they can play as is or adapt for their own campaign) or crunch option books. Sourcebooks are bought by lorehounds and DMs - both of whom are minority populations in an already minority population (do you know how much hate or at least disinterest there is for the Realms out there in the greater gamer population?). That view has been hammered home to me by the DMs Guild. Why isn't the Border Kingdoms book anywhere up there in terms of sales? The excellent Moonshae work done by Eric Menge and Co? Where are all the hardcore Realms fans to buy the stuff Eric Boyd has put up there? He's not cracked 1000 sales on either of the two things he's done (third one in the works atm) as I understand, and at a massive $4 a pop - not that he's doing it for the money: the revenue is being ploughed back into art/mapping for other, bigger planned products. The top selling $5 and under product is a generic piece on "Ancestral Weapons" (which looks good and appears very well done). In fact there isn't a Realms product in the Top 10. Ironically, in terms of the DMs Guild generally - for world-specific titles - Eberron is kicking Elminster in the patootie. Products like the ones you have suggested, for the Realms, just don't sell.
-- George Krashos
Honestly, I think a lot of the problem is people just don't know what's out there. And even for people that are familiar with the DM's Guild -- there's a lot of stuff there to wade through. Every email I get with DM's Guild stuff, I see more of the same: Trinkets #458, Revamped Class X #237, More Backgrounds! #5,683,391. I don't even look at the site any more unless I am looking for something specific, because it's not just finding a needle in a haystack, it's finding a needle in a 100 acres of haystacks.
There's a hell of a difference between content there and an actual printed book put out by WotC. Part of the success of WotC and TSR before them was pure name recognition.
Sure, sales would be less for that printed book of lore than they would be for an adventure -- but it's still sales, and all they'd have to do is collate existing information. They wouldn't even have to do it themselves -- I'm sure that Ed would have been willing to whip up something for a reasonable price.
That's why I say it wasn't about lore being an issue for fans -- because WotC could have made that lore easily available and made money in the process.
Lore clearly has been an issue for the designers and all their kewl ideas, though... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 16:33:02
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Of course, as I said, if the real issue was people feeling they had to catch up on everything, a series of gazetteers would have taken care of that. You might even be able to do just one, if you keep it focused on lore instead of stuffing in backgrounds and classes and feats all that rot.
Do it as a 96 page softbound book. Dedicate half to a quick overview of the setting, and half to the timeline from the OGB to the SCAG.
And then you have enough to adequately inform the newbies AND you've got another product to sell.
If you want to go more in-depth, keep cranking out those 96-page books, with a tighter focus for each. Gods and magic. Various peoples of the setting. Power groups of the setting. Regional books.
They could prolly get 5 or 6 books out of all that, if they wanted, purely from collating older material. (Assuming the regional books are broader areas)
New fans would buy it to learn the setting, and older fans would buy it to have the info collated instead of scattered across products from multiple editions.
And it's all more money in WotC's pocket.
Of course, that would require work to put together and it would mean the designers would be obligated to stick to canon... Which is, I am quite convinced, the reason they didn't do it. I doubt it was even considered.
They don't sell. Books like that, I mean. Sure, they sell a few copies but nowhere near what adventures sell (because most DMs are time poor and like ready made that they can play as is or adapt for their own campaign) or crunch option books. Sourcebooks are bought by lorehounds and DMs - both of whom are minority populations in an already minority population (do you know how much hate or at least disinterest there is for the Realms out there in the greater gamer population?). That view has been hammered home to me by the DMs Guild. Why isn't the Border Kingdoms book anywhere up there in terms of sales? The excellent Moonshae work done by Eric Menge and Co? Where are all the hardcore Realms fans to buy the stuff Eric Boyd has put up there? He's not cracked 1000 sales on either of the two things he's done (third one in the works atm) as I understand, and at a massive $4 a pop - not that he's doing it for the money: the revenue is being ploughed back into art/mapping for other, bigger planned products. The top selling $5 and under product is a generic piece on "Ancestral Weapons" (which looks good and appears very well done). In fact there isn't a Realms product in the Top 10. Ironically, in terms of the DMs Guild generally - for world-specific titles - Eberron is kicking Elminster in the patootie. Products like the ones you have suggested, for the Realms, just don't sell.
-- George Krashos
Two things?
I bought my copy of Jergal Lord of the End of Everything. I shall have to go back and look for the second. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
523 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 17:35:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I personally have always felt that working in a shared setting makes me MORE creative.
It's easy enough to drop something into your own setting, when it's only in your head or some partial notes.
But trying to figure out how to fit something into an established setting? Coming up with something that fits the history and flavor of the setting, without breaking anything, and yet stays mostly truly to the vision of what you're trying to add? That takes more work, and it pushes you to find answers to questions you otherwise wouldn't have asked.
In my opinion, the end result is far better for having been more challenging.
Or to use another analogy I've used in the past... You're ten years old and looking to play outside. Where are you going to have more fun -- the open, empty field, or the playground that's designed for your fun? Does having a playground there limit your play in any way?
This is so very true. It captures exactly why I chose to RP in the Realms when I decided to DM. All I knew at the time was every other campaign settings, including homebrews, seemed hollow. Turns out the "limitations" are what make for a better more flavorful story. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
Edited by - Gelcur on 27 Jul 2021 17:37:35 |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
658 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 17:49:25
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I got Havens of Miyeritar, and History of the Zulkirs was very good, but most of the other stuff like the Moonshaes/Border Kingdoms seems uninteresting or rehash of the old lore, and it's 5e.
Planar books the guild are even worse, at least those I could find by their terrible search engine. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 19:45:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
I got Havens of Miyeritar, and History of the Zulkirs was very good, but most of the other stuff like the Moonshaes/Border Kingdoms seems uninteresting or rehash of the old lore, and it's 5e.
Planar books the guild are even worse, at least those I could find by their terrible search engine.
Yeah, I saw someone was doing a Zakhara update to 5e, and I thought to myself that it would be a good idea. I looked at the price and realized there was a lot of pages, and I was about to buy it. Then I asked if any of the LORE was updated heavily, and I got that they didn't really need to change much in that area, since the date for Zakhara has never been set in stone. So, I thought about it, and realized "so its stuff I already have, but rules updated". Not to knock the product, but for what they wanted, it just wouldn't be worth it to me personally.
Now, had they gone through, made changes because the spellplague happened, followed by the second sundering, and we've got all this story to go with it.... I would have been interested to see what they did. I totally get why they didn't though, because that's a massive lift, and most people wouldn't be interested.
Its kind of like me writing my metahel pantheon of anchorome book. I don't expect to make any real money off of it. I just kept thinking about the idea, and I just wanted to write it... so I did. Meanwhile, my kercpa race and my other book on the races of adusgi forest have both netted me more money because they have more crunch (granted nowhere near worth the time I spent writing them.... but again... I wanted to write). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
523 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 20:23:32
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
They don't sell. Books like that, I mean. Sure, they sell a few copies but nowhere near what adventures sell (because most DMs are time poor and like ready made that they can play as is or adapt for their own campaign) or crunch option books. Sourcebooks are bought by lorehounds and DMs - both of whom are minority populations in an already minority population (do you know how much hate or at least disinterest there is for the Realms out there in the greater gamer population?). That view has been hammered home to me by the DMs Guild. Why isn't the Border Kingdoms book anywhere up there in terms of sales? The excellent Moonshae work done by Eric Menge and Co? Where are all the hardcore Realms fans to buy the stuff Eric Boyd has put up there? He's not cracked 1000 sales on either of the two things he's done (third one in the works atm) as I understand, and at a massive $4 a pop - not that he's doing it for the money: the revenue is being ploughed back into art/mapping for other, bigger planned products. The top selling $5 and under product is a generic piece on "Ancestral Weapons" (which looks good and appears very well done). In fact there isn't a Realms product in the Top 10. Ironically, in terms of the DMs Guild generally - for world-specific titles - Eberron is kicking Elminster in the patootie. Products like the ones you have suggested, for the Realms, just don't sell.
I am more than happy to buy Adventures that I never intend to run as long as the books are full of colorful lore. Lets explore a cool dungeon AND have the region's personality come through (history, persons, locations, etc).
In the past we had books like Haunted Halls of Eveningstar, Into the Dragon's Lair , Pool of Radiance: Attack on Myth Drannor, Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave super-adventure. These all seemed to walk this line well. Even if you didn't like the direction they went in they seemed rooted in the Realms because of the flavor. I can browse them and rip out things I could use.
I compare these to Dragon Heist, I loved the premise so much I decided I was going to run it. Waterdeep has so many choices I never know what to do there. I quickly realized all the flavorful Realms events and encounters were missing. Go help of a Champion of Kelemvor stop the theft of bones from the City of the Dead, sounds like fun. Summary of what they gave me to work with "spend 5 days in the City of the Dead waiting for an encounter of 6 skeletons to kill, hand out X reward". That's it, the champion is never mentioned again, the necromancer who was supposedly behind it never comes up, there was no Zoomed it area of the City of the Dead with labeled tombs with bits of lore. I just ended up writing my own adventure that was inspired by the idea of the book. Just so disappointing.
As far as the DMsGuild goes it seems hard to find things and things sometimes are listed multiple times at different price points. I would love to give you guys money. Maybe we organize a list here, preferably sorted by scribe with links out? I know we have this scroll stickied but I am guessing it is missing a lot of items.
Here is what I found thus far:
Ed
Elminster's Candlekeep Companion $14.95
The Border Kingdoms: A Forgotten Realms Campaign Supplement $14.99
Darkhold: Secrets of the Zhentarim $14.95 (Pereghost's history)
Amarune's Almanac: Grasslands of the Realms Vol3 $9.95 (Content and a foreword)
Amarune's Almanac: Arctics of the Realms Vol4 $9.95 (Content and a foreword)
Amarune's Almanac: Coasts of the Realms Vol5 $9.95 (Content and a foreword)
Amarune's Almanac: Swamps of the Realms Vol6 $9.95 (Content and a foreword)
Amarune's Almanac: Mountains of the Realms Vol7 $9.95 (Content and a foreword)
Amarune's Almanac: Deserts of the Realms Vol8 $9.95 (Content and a foreword)
CCC-GHC-02 Skulljaw Hill $2.99
CCC-GHC-03 Facing the Dark $2.99
CCC-GHC-07 - The River Runs Red $1.99
CCC-GHC-08 - Death In The Ruins $1.99
CCC-GHC-09 - Swamp Of Death $1.99
Umbrous Unpleasantness at Undreth’s Unicorn: A Border Kingdom’s Tale. Pay What You Want
Tyrants in Scarlet: the Founding History of the Zulkirs of Thay Free
George Krashos
Jergal: Lord of the End of Everything $4
Havens of Miyeritar $4
Talona's Touch: Poisons of the Forgotten Realms $2
Talona's Kiss: More Poisons of the Forgotten Realms $1
Bazaar of the Bizarre - From the Forge $2
Bazaar of the Bizarre - Enchanting Elixirs Bazaar of the Bizarre - Enchanting Elixirs Pay What You Want
Bazaar of the Bizarre - Ilmara's Scrying Stones Pay What You Want
Pages From the Mages - The Burning Tome Pay What You Want
Prayers From The Faithful - Khanor's Prayer Stones Pay What You Want
The High History of Impiltur Free
Saints of Impiltur Saints of Impiltur Free
Swords of Impiltur: Imbrar's Inheritance $1
Swords of Impiltur: Soargar's Legacy Pay What You Want
Yahdi al Alamat, the Hand of Doom Yahdi al Alamat, the Hand of Doom Pay What You Want
The Lalya Maurshanta Free
Tyrants in Scarlet: the Founding History of the Zulkirs of Thay Free
Eric L. Boyd
Jergal: Lord of the End of Everything $4
Havens of Miyeritar $4 |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
Edited by - Gelcur on 28 Jul 2021 18:54:08 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 20:30:04
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| A bunch of that Amarune's Almanac stuff appears to be just a foreword by Ed. Did Ed actually rite any of those (I know he worked with George on the Thay one, which I thoroughly enjoyed the introduction of the Athora as an idea). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 20:33:28
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I've bought/downloaded all of those pdfs.
I still need to read some of it, like the Amarune's stuff.
I was very disappointed with the Darkhold book. Some new lore, which I didn't feel was enough to justify the price, and a lot that just didn't grab me. And the retcon of Ashemmi ruined it for me. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
523 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2021 : 20:40:03
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I had to make some edits to the links. And I just sorted them in whatever order I found them in on DMsGuild site.
Maybe Gary Dallison can edit his post on the DMsGuild shelf or we can start a new scroll with the above info, we can add other Scribes or missing products to the first post and keep it up to date?
I would also love to know to what level Ed was involved in various projects. Tonight I'll be purchasing all of Eric and George's stuff.
P.S. I also realized the multiple listings at different price points are for online mods for a group gaming site. So I removed them. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
Edited by - Gelcur on 27 Jul 2021 21:04:59 |
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Forgotten Realms Novels Not Canon: WotC
