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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 05:56:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Wars over resources usually involve neighbors and a shortage of resources elsewhere. I do not see that any of the places close to Waterdeep are close enough for a war, nor that there is a lack of resources to trigger such a war.
I didn't say a lack of resources. I talked about fighting over resources and the control of the same. Land is a resource that has an agricultural value and a strategic value.
In the Western Heartlands there have been "a dozen crumbled empires have sought to conquer or dominate the region, leaving behind fortifications built upon by waves of subsequent would-be monarchs." It would be easy enough for history to repeat and for one to come together that would eventually threaten Waterdeep to the North.
King Obould Many Arrows could be quite successful and conquer all the way to the River Delimbiyr. He could concentrate on the Dessarin River system and work his way on down from the north. (In my realms I had him conquer everything West of the Silver Marches and the High Forest. Basically, I didn't understand why orc hordes always lost and were pushed back. The orcs need to win sometime.)
The Sword Mountains are full of Orc tribes that have been feuding with one another for the past 300 years, should a charismatic leader unite the tribes (which really should have happened once in the past 300 years), then they could actually set to conquering land to their north and northeast. If they are not stopped and have a couple decades to increase their population a lot, then they would be in a great position to threaten to take land all the way to Yartar. Once there they could halt all trade flowing downriver to Waterdeep because they don't like stupid humans.
A kingdom could be founded around Yartar and extend up the Dessarin River Valley. Add some time and Yartar becomes more secure and more populous. Then we could get into a Upper Egypt/Lower Egypt situation.
The Kraglar of Griffon's Nest "dreams of crushing a walled city beneath the weapons of his barbarian horde and ruling as it's master. Sounds like an Attila the Hun analogy in waiting.
A friend of mine had a troll army emerge from the Evermoors as a pawn of the Drow in his world. I would not have thought of it, but had it been successful in bringing the Silver Marches low, then it would not have had anything at it's rear to distract prevent it from moving south.
The druids of the High Forest could object to the encroachment of civilization on their Western and southern borders and decide to do something about it. They first target the upper part of the Delimbiyr river system, because of how isolated it is. After that success they could start on the much harder bit of from the Dessarin Hills south to the Fallen Hills. The nobles of Waterdeep don't care, but year after year as less food flows down river, and the price of food rises, calls are made to do something about these ecoterrorists.
Or we could have undead army lead by a lich that is conquering everything in a particular area because it is searching for it's a crown it lost. The lich doesn't care about the resources of the region or Waterdeep, but Waterdeep cares, because the lich is interfering with the flow of resources to Waterdeep.
Now in a lot of these situations, you'd eventually get to some form of siege of Waterdeep. Without the food flowing south or with restricted flow, they would then need to import and/or magically create a lot of food to make up for it. Waterdeep wouldn't be able to go years and decades independent of the Dessarin River System. Any of these forces restricting their food supply would constitute an existential threat to it's food supply. Militarily they would have to act and they would have a logical reason to act long before an army got to the gates of Waterdeep itself (or the druid drive all civilization out from the east back of the Dessarin).
Meanwhile the players could be on either side of various of these conflict. From the Waterdeep side of it, you could have the players aligned with someone who says "look, things could snowball out of hand. we know how bad things could get. why don't you go over here and nip this in the bud. Armies are expensive. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". The campaign might not be about the war itself, but in preventing the war from happening.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I also don't see much potential use for PCs in such a war. Sure, they can be special forces types, but running ops against a neighboring country, in a fantasy setting, is not going to be as interesting as going off and doing their own thing and slaying monsters and all that.
When it gets to the actual war, yeah, there are so many moving parts that they can get lost if you don't handle it right. But in the lead up to it? Oh man! There is so much potential for PC's in low level conflict between different populations.
But at the heart of it there is the question of what these people are fighting over. And it is more interesting when they both have solid motivations for what they are doing. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 07:27:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Basically, I didn't understand why orc hordes always lost and were pushed back. The orcs need to win sometimes.
Oh, I know the answer for this. It has to do with the authors trying for stuff to make sense from a real world perspective, instead of from an in-universe perspective. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 31 Aug 2021 07:28:23 |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 08:23:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Oh, I know the answer for this. It has to do with the authors trying for stuff to make sense from a real world perspective, instead of from an in-universe perspective.
I'll bite. Explain. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 08:57:18
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| The orcs and other monster usually lost because we, the readers/players/buyers/etc. are humans, and we need humanity to have a leading role in the stories to feel a connection to the narrative. So, a story were orcs are on the winning side isn't going to sell, even if that would make sense in-universe. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 11:25:00
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
... a best fantasy world does have a solid connection to reality. So that an economic model can be built...
Why do you believe that is even necessary when building an economy? Is there something special about RW perceptions for the laws of physics that affects the price of wood planks in the FR? Portal networks defy our concepts of distance, supernatural creatures supersede RW technological accomplishments, energy & material objects can be spontaneously created from nothing, and immortality (not dying from the affects of aging) is achievable through a variety of methods. Market forces & economic principles can model these vagaries despite the fact that they contradict our collective perception of the RW natural universe.
So, what is breaking your mind about Waterdeep being well fed that "reality" wouldn't allow and for which the authors have been silent?
The fact we do know how portals work, how they are made and cost could fit into an economic model, food enough for Waterdeep (for free) that is not explained how it works can not be fit into that model. The Dales could be fed for free with a similar temple and there is no reason that smaller Goldenfields could be in other places though out the Realms.
Most of the time I do not care how Waterdeep gets its food, it only matters when the discussion about an economy of the Realms is discussed.
Many do not care that much about an economy, it tends to matter for those seeking to build their own dominion or run trade routes between locations of the Realms.
So for most of the time people (including authors) knowing there are farmers and craftspeople is good enough for them . They do not care how much they earn, etc. of how the economy works, it is just acepted it works.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 13:39:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The orcs and other monster usually lost because we, the readers/players/buyers/etc. are humans, and we need humanity to have a leading role in the stories to feel a connection to the narrative. So, a story were orcs are on the winning side isn't going to sell, even if that would make sense in-universe.
It could also be that if an orc horde came through, killing everyone and leveling everything, then you don't have much left for a setting. Wanna play an elf? Too bad, orcs killed them all. Oh, you wanna be a halfling? Sorry, the last halfling in the setting was barbecued at an orc birthday party last week.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 16:32:16
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I'd be happy to play in a setting were the orcs had killed all halflings,  .
More seriously, however, I'm not saying that the orcs must defeat all civilization, just they should earn more victories. The Nentir Vale is a good example of that. The orcs destroyed the Vale 100 years ago, leaving some survivors and stuff, and the people living there is afraid of the next attack. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 31 Aug 2021 16:33:25 |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 18:56:06
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Hello Kentinal!
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
The fact we do know how portals work, how they are made and cost could fit into an economic model, food enough for Waterdeep (for free) that is not explained how it works can not be fit into that model. The Dales could be fed for free with a similar temple and there is no reason that smaller Goldenfields could be in other places though out the Realms.
Most of the time I do not care how Waterdeep gets its food, it only matters when the discussion about an economy of the Realms is discussed.
Many do not care that much about an economy, it tends to matter for those seeking to build their own dominion or run trade routes between locations of the Realms.
So for most of the time people (including authors) knowing there are farmers and craftspeople is good enough for them . They do not care how much they earn, etc. of how the economy works, it is just acepted it works.
That is a good answer. |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 19:12:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The orcs and other monster usually lost because we, the readers/players/buyers/etc. are humans, and we need humanity to have a leading role in the stories to feel a connection to the narrative. So, a story were orcs are on the winning side isn't going to sell, even if that would make sense in-universe.
And:
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Oh, I know the answer for this. It has to do with the authors trying for stuff to make sense from a real world perspective, instead of from an in-universe perspective.
I don't think you understand the kind or real world perspective we have been talking about. In the real world, every nation has their wins and their losses. Orc hordes should be threatening, because they have a decent chance of success. If the campaign setting doesn't seem to allow that, then that can easily be fixed by the orcs winning.
But putting that to one side, your premise is still flawed. If you are talking about novels, then yes, if you have the orc horde win at the end of the book that would be less than satisfying for most readers. But if the bad guys were the main characters, then that could work out all right. (The Darth Bane trilogy of novels from Star Wars comes to mind. The Sith win in that one. It is a very good series.) But we aren't talking about novels, or at least, not just novels. We're talking about campaign sourcebooks. Various descriptions of how orc hordes have been successful at various points in the past throughout the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book is not going to make any one not buy it. And that would be an in-universe reason why players should take orc hordes more seriously. And for NPC in general to take orcs more seriously. I should think that would contribute to making the setting books a little bit better. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 19:40:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I'd be happy to play in a setting were the orcs had killed all halflings, .
More seriously, however, I'm not saying that the orcs must defeat all civilization, just they should earn more victories. The Nentir Vale is a good example of that. The orcs destroyed the Vale 100 years ago, leaving some survivors and stuff, and the people living there is afraid of the next attack.
...But they have. Orcs are the reason there are a lot of fallen empires. And even more recently, there was the Kingdom of Many-Arrows. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 19:52:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Consider the Fireball spell. I want the fireball to violate known physics... But it needs to behave like fire. It needs to burn the people and things it touches. If I [threw] the fireball at a wooden ceiling then I want it to dissipate upon the ceiling in a manner consistent with how fire, air, and smoke actually behave.
So, you don't want it to behave like RW fire until you do want it to behave like RW fire. Are you just being obtuse? D&D's regular fire does not behave like RW fire in the first place, so forget magical D&D fire modelling the same as the RW. The heat generated by a fireball sufficient to flash fry a regular person (lvl 1 commoner or 0 level NPC) to death (minimum 3rd degree burns > 60% body) would raise the temperature of the area (72C/162F), create obscuring smoke, consume environmental oxygen, and leave poisonous gasses (like carbon monoxide) behind if we were trying to model the effects with RW fire parameters. Does the suspension of disbelief break when the 3.xE feat of Energy Substitution seamlessly changes that fire to sonic/cold/acid damage even though those would require vastly different RW deliveries of converted energy? If you cast that same spell in a wild magic spot in 2E there was a possibility that the target zone is flooded with butterflies instead or the caster uncontrollably sneezes for the next minute instead of your glorious wanabe-RW-pyrotechnics. You are deluding yourself to hang onto this notion of "realism" in the game, but I guess it is a game of pretend anyways so knock yourself out.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Also, in neither the PlayersHandbook nor in the Forgotten Realms campaign books is any time devoted to describing in intense detail all of the advanced the agricultural spells that are in use at any given time to afford any given society 20th century levels of food production.
"... a decadent interpretation of Gygaxian naturalism, one so concerned with building "realistic" fantasy worlds that it inadvertently leeched away much of fantasy's power and appeal." Also, there are no tables for variations in soil quality, affects of inclement weather on crop maturations, skill sets required by farmhands for enhancing yields of ripe harvests, and random deity boons/blights on the farming endeavors. *sigh* To think, everything that exists in the FR needs to be spelled out in its entirety. If such a work existed, in its hundreds of thousands of pages if not tens of millions (assuming anyone could afford such a monstrous compiled work), would you think it could turn a profit if sold as a product? The book products are for fantasy ADVENTURES, and the contained materials are the means to support that end. The FRCS, Introduction on pg 5, 1st sentence: "Welcome to the world of Faerun, a place of great heroes and stark evil, encompassing lands of magic, mystery, and high peril." The products are for adventuring in that succinctly stated setting. But why should I have all the fun? Crack open your own PHB and read what is written there in the Introduction - you might find something quite similar.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Why should we expect that any society is going to have 20th century level of food production?
I am just talking about the agriculture yields like what had been produced by the Roman Empire, during the Song dynasty of China, and during the Arab Agricultural Revolution/Restoration. There were other parts of the world that existed prior to and during the time of medieval France & England. And still you do not address the elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, and others in the room. What kinds of alien technologies, insights, cultivars, and preparations would they have added to the science of agriculture? Yes, "alien," because they are not human and therefore have very different perceptions and approaches to farming (simultaneous symbiotic planting, timed gradual harvesting, fungus accelerated field reclamation, chemosynthetic farming along side of photosynthetic farming, and other guesses...).
By the by, the earlier mentioned orc hordes have long been frustrated by walled cities and could not sustain themselves after they pillaged the lands through which they have invaded. Again, there are several prior scrolls with sages debating the pros and cons of said hordes. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 19:55:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I'd be happy to play in a setting were the orcs had killed all halflings, .
More seriously, however, I'm not saying that the orcs must defeat all civilization, just they should earn more victories. The Nentir Vale is a good example of that. The orcs destroyed the Vale 100 years ago, leaving some survivors and stuff, and the people living there is afraid of the next attack.
...But they have. Orcs are the reason there are a lot of fallen empires. And even more recently, there was the Kingdom of Many-Arrows.
That was completely destroyed so the more white-coded races (such as dwarves) could be the new MVPs again.
Anyways, I was thinking about it, and if the orcs killed all halflings they may be actually solving all of Toril's food problems for the next century, lol |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 31 Aug 2021 19:55:55 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 20:23:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Then we have to add stuff like guys using monsters to create food and that stuff, as discussed in this topic:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24074
Hmmm, deepspawn again.... that does bring to mind an idea. What about a deepspawn that can specifically create creatures that are beneficial to plant growth. I can't think of any offhand... but I'm betting someone can (a treant "spawn" might be especially useful for clearing trees from acreage or moving other trees from growing up around fruit trees, etc...). Wow, I could definitely see Chaunteans wrestling with that morally..... but some other "evil" druids like Malarites might have much fewer qualms (so long as it produces a place that feeds things for them to hunt).
EDIT: Hmmm, thinking on this, the creatures of my own creation (wildleaf stags) are noted to use druidcraft to grow small plants. Now I'm picturing feeding one to a deepspawn.
Insects and worms would be the most directly beneficial, though other animals can have an indirect effect on an overall ecology.
For a deepspawn and issues of food supply, though, various forms of livestock are the best option. Fish/seafood and fowl can work as well, though livestock will produce more food (unless you're talking about seriously big fish).
No, I was thinking along the lines of producing large magical things that can turn around and enhance the growth of crops. As written, deepspawn would be unable to produce a flurry of rabbits, etc.... they produce a single spawn at a time over days. When I hear stories of deepspawn producing animals for a hunting group to hunt for instance, I don't picture rabbits, but rather the largest elk or moose that they could find. Granted, I like the idea of them being able to produce a nonstop stream of small things, aesthetically, but my worry would be from a "breaking the world even worse" aspect that I can't even think about (i.e. can you make a nonstop stream of extremely magical faeries instead of rabbits if size matters?) |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 21:54:46
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
No, I was thinking along the lines of producing large magical things that can turn around and enhance the growth of crops. As written, deepspawn would be unable to produce a flurry of rabbits, etc.... they produce a single spawn at a time over days. When I hear stories of deepspawn producing animals for a hunting group to hunt for instance, I don't picture rabbits, but rather the largest elk or moose that they could find. Granted, I like the idea of them being able to produce a nonstop stream of small things, aesthetically, but my worry would be from a "breaking the world even worse" aspect that I can't even think about (i.e. can you make a nonstop stream of extremely magical faeries instead of rabbits if size matters?)
I am, admittedly, far from conversant with the 8.3 gazillion monster types created for D&D... But I don't recall any magical, crop-enhancing critters. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2021 : 01:26:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
No, I was thinking along the lines of producing large magical things that can turn around and enhance the growth of crops. As written, deepspawn would be unable to produce a flurry of rabbits, etc.... they produce a single spawn at a time over days. When I hear stories of deepspawn producing animals for a hunting group to hunt for instance, I don't picture rabbits, but rather the largest elk or moose that they could find. Granted, I like the idea of them being able to produce a nonstop stream of small things, aesthetically, but my worry would be from a "breaking the world even worse" aspect that I can't even think about (i.e. can you make a nonstop stream of extremely magical faeries instead of rabbits if size matters?)
I am, admittedly, far from conversant with the 8.3 gazillion monster types created for D&D... But I don't recall any magical, crop-enhancing critters.
Yeah, that's why I actually mentioned my Wildlead stags, because that's one that I've developed, so it sticks out. I had also created an idea of a wildwood jackrabbit (jackalope) also for anchorome that would grow "tree horns" like antlers that fall off and grow trees (and occurs to me a giant ridable version might be better, with possibly dropping off its bushy tail as a bush). Reprinting that below just for the heck of it. They weren't intended for farms mind you, actually more spreading wild lands. However, treants would work from a deepspawn. In 5e, pixies get druidcraft, so producing pixies would be a good way to grow crops (perhaps the druids capture a deepspawn that had already eaten one, rather than feeding one to a deepspawn) with little physical material being fed to the deepspawn. There's probably other things too, like dryads.
Wildwood Jackrabbit - This rather strange jackalope is attributed to a legend of Raelkath Maneeboughs blessing a primordial rabbit, Harifur, said to be a mount of the infamous kercpa hero god, Rititisk the Clever. Its said that the excrement of Harifur was used by Rititisk to fertilize many great trees, including several seeds of the world tree, including great Raelkath himself. From a distance, it appears almost like any other jackalope, except that its fur coloration is almost always silvery-white with spots of bright green. In truth, this greenery is made up of small pieces of clover that grow from amongst its fur and its silvery-white fur resembles dandelion hairs. These hairs are known to detach themselves in the wind, and where they land, several days later flowers like red clover, iris, marigolds, lilies, carnations, daisies, sunflowers, bluebells, beavertail cactii,and snapdragons or vines and shrubs producing honeysuckle, blackberries, raspberries, strawberries, muscadine, barberry, cloudberries, buffaloberries, huckleberries, elderberries, or sandgrapes are found in bloom. Particularly strong storms have been known to strip these creatures of their fur, leaving them cold and shivering and seeking the warmth of a companion. Couples that allow a "naked" wildwood jackrabbit to nestle with them for warmth have spread rumors that they were inordinately virile that night, and they are often said to produce children, especially twins, as a result. Their tails are small collections of small white flowers. Their flesh, for though few are killed and studied as its considered bad luck to kill one of these rabbits by the minnenewah, has been found to be more like that of a mushroom than normal musculature. Its horns are actually sprouting trees growing from their heads, with variations being pawpaw, persimmon, mayhaw, apple, pear, peach, plum, cherry, pomegranate, pecan, hickory nut, salmonberry, saskatoon, gooseberry, mulberry, honeyfruit, and weirwood. A given wildwood jackrabbit can produce any of these types, and they often sprout a tree and have it grow for only 2 or 3 weeks before it begins to detach from their head after reaching a length of a little more than a foot or even two feet long. Given that these strange rabbits are believed to live at least four to five years naturally, this means that they are often the source of nearly a hundred such trees before they pass. It is believed by many however that they only sprout a weirwood tree when they are old and ready to die, and that it never detaches from their bodies, but rather the wildwood jackrabbits corpse becomes a fertile compost to feed the fledgling weirwood. The adusgi forest is believed to have so many weirwoods due to the fact that many of these rabbits seem drawn to return there when they sense their deaths coming. Many if not all of these weirwoods that survive past their first fifty years end up having a rather strange looking dryad, possessing rabbit like ears atop their heads, and a soft puffy tail above their buttocks. Its also thought that the children of these dryads produce newborn wildwood jackrabbits for centuries to come. The Azuposi, Poscadari elves, and Minnenewah believe that these dryads are awakened by the daughters of Cornmother, the spirits known as Uretsete and Naotsete, but the Metahel and bearfolk say that these dryads are awakened by the goddesses Eldunna and Balanis the Honeyqueen. The short ones of the Pasocada basin speak of a goddess known to them as Sheela Peryroyal, and its said that they have over a dozen such weirwood trees that they tend as holy temples in their homeland. The trees of wildwood jackrabbits slain before their time are said to eventually grow into wood woads and treants which possess the nature of the type of tree that was growing from the head of the wildwood jackrabbit when it died.
Wildwood jackrabbits, like most rabbits are herbivorous and often eat plants, however, they are also capable of consuming decaying and diseased flesh. They do so not so much by chewing it however, for a corpse touched by a wildwood jackrabbit seems to simple melt away into the earth while the jackrabbit seems to grow noticeably larger in its belly. In the case of diseased flesh, wildwood jackrabbits consume the disease from flesh, even cancerous, cracked, and fevered flesh that is still alive, leaving renewed and healthy flesh in its wake. During this process they grow larger and their fur temporarily takes on a darker hue, and the trees growing on their heads tend to grow larger and sprout more leaves and subtly glow as they attract sunlight. Its thought that taking on a sickness is often what tends to "break" a tree from the head of a wildwood jackrabbit, for usually a jackrabbit leaves behind a new growth which the benefactor is expected to care for. However, these strange magical rabbits do not always survive the transfer of disease, and if they die their fur and the tree growing from their head darkens completely to black. The Minnenewah believe that is is bad luck to allow the tree from such a failed attempt to take root, for there are rumors that they grow into trees whose fruit induces paranoia in those who eat of it and these trees have a spiteful dryad-like spirit which is said to actually spread sickness. The Minnenewah believe that it falls upon the person healed, or their family in the case of small children or the elderly, to take the remains far from their village and build a great pyre of rotted wood. The ashes of this fire must be carefully gathered afterward and transported to a forest, where they must be buried beneath the roots of a weirwood tree. Those that complete such quests are said to often gain great virility as a result.
Given their benevolent nature, its no wonder that nearly all tribes of anchorome seem to appreciate these animals and treat them as holy beasts. In particular, the Metahel priestesses of Sifya the Warmother and Eldunna have shown great love for them after a virulent plague spread among their populace soon after they landed in the Pasocada basin, and hundreds of these hares descended upon their community at once. This was perhaps the greatest known influx of wildwood jackrabbits ever seen so far from the Adusgi Forest, and numerous groves of various fruit and nut trees, fruit bearing vines and shrubs, and wildflowers are said to dot their newfound home to this day only because of their arrival. Helms, weapons, and carven staves of the Metahel women often carry the imagery of a wildwood jackrabbit with a small tree flowering on its head, and insults of these items are not considered acceptable at all by any in the community. All attempts to tame wildwood jackrabbits or keep them to a given community have thus far failed, with such attempts seeming to leave the hare growing sickly after only a week or two.
However, not all creatures find wildwood jackrabbits to be so virtuous, for coyotlweres and the alien minded folk of the land of the insect men have been known to kill and eat these creatures whenever they can capture them. This has resulted in much hatred of these beings by their surrounding neighbors, and many small metahel raiding parties have invaded to kill thri-kreen, ettercaps, and other creatures believed to have committed such atrocities. The newly arrived Abeil in the land of the insect men have also expressed disgust to their fellows over such practices, though to date nothing has changed. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2021 : 05:38:14
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Hello SaMoCon!
I'm not really sure how to respond to your last comments. If you want to create strawmen to fight, then I will leave you to it. You don't need me for that.
With regards to the general conversation on farmland, I kinda think Kentinal did a good closing on our shared perspective.
Cheers!
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2021 : 13:18:02
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quote:
The fact we do know how portals work, how they are made and cost could fit into an economic model, food enough for Waterdeep (for free) that is not explained how it works can not be fit into that model. The Dales could be fed for free with a similar temple and there is no reason that smaller Goldenfields could be in other places though out the Realms.
The economics of portals is a debated subject in these forums. Case in point, the scroll about portal economics from just last year. But I'll leave the arguments of that there because we are talking about the Goldenfields here. There is a model of profit in place for the farmers of Goldenfields. I've provided the link to the wiki prior, I suggest reading the entire entry to understand just how different that place is. What do the farmers get? What does the church get? What does Waterdeep get? Just like in the RW, not all gains are in money or goods, the value of which is modeled with the social science art of economics.
As for expanding the systems of magic for mass coverage to solve problems within the scope of the spells & powers, I suggest you start writing a campaign pitch for WotC - "The Future is Now: Forgotten Realms 2101 DR." It is a brave new world of high fantasy with magitech implemented in all facets of life... All joking aside, why are people allowed to die or remain dead from unnatural causes when there is magic that will reverse these situations? Why is hunger ever an issue in this same scenario? If casters can make lands bountiful with just a waving of hands, why isn't the world a verdant gaia landscape? Why not a, or multiple, utopia(s) with cross-checked thought scanning to ensure the loyalty and well-being of the citizens complete with mood enhancing/passion suppressing enchantments? There is nothing in the D&D system that would prevent a guaranteed long life free from want for all.
What is allowed by the D&D system sounds like a nice place to live, but it is not what was described in the opening sentence of the introduction to the Forgotten Realms. In the lore of the FR, magic use has many unintended maladies that have left a foul impression with many populations, some of whom have gone so far as to renounce civilization in order to distance themselves from magical disasters. D&D magic is more stable than the public utilities in a rich community; however, FR magic from the lore is less so with truly unexpected to completely inexplicable effects. Your statement of "given A why not then B" is supported by the D&D system; however, it is not supported by the FR setting. The arbitrary rules busted the arbitrary limits of the setting. As such, D&D was not really a good fit for the FR - a position I have taken so often that it should be in my signature line. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2021 : 14:35:16
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| To THAT point that SaMoCon just brought up... it's interesting to come up with these types of discussions about "how does a place like Goldenfields work", because they can sometimes lead to unexpected ideas. For instance, one idea I came up with was that the sewers might use a lock/gate system to periodically open a path to a portal that would drain the sewers of waterdeep to an underground "treatment plant"/"storage area for fertilizer" beneath goldenfields (or, a rotating destination to numerous such storage areas as I think on it more). This opens up ideas for adventures though whenever magic fails and something happens to that portal. This portal is also a weakness for the city, and those who want to cause the city harm might intentionally take it out. This creates a unique story idea for adventurers that I can honestly say that none of my players would ever expect me to come up with... and at the same time it makes a lot more sense than the classic "some powerful mage setup a dungeon in his residence, and now that he's dead you want to raid it" |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2021 : 17:51:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Basically, I didn't understand why orc hordes always lost and were pushed back. The orcs need to win sometime.)
Orcs boil out from their territories because they can't stay. Due to overpopulation and overhunting, in search of more food etc.
How do you even define "win" condition for this?
To get some food, survive, return home with loot? I'm sure some of them do, every time. What of it?
quote:
οΏ½ The Sword Mountains are full of Orc tribes that have been feuding with one another for the past 300 years, should a charismatic leader unite the tribes (which really should have happened once in the past 300 years), then they could actually set to conquering land to their north and northeast.
Kind of. Sometimes. Hence those broken countries.
Then said charismatic (and strong) leader gets killed in battle or otherwise dies, and it's back to square #1.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It could also be that if an orc horde came through, killing everyone and leveling everything, then you don't have much left for a setting. Wanna play an elf? Too bad, orcs killed them all. Oh, you wanna be a halfling? Sorry, the last halfling in the setting was barbecued at an orc birthday party last week.
Take a look at Midnight some time. The high concept is "not-Sauron won". And yes, orcs everywhere. They are cool sort of orcs, however. 
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I also don't see much potential use for PCs in such a war. Sure, they can be special forces types, but running ops against a neighboring country, in a fantasy setting, is not going to be as interesting as going off and doing their own thing and slaying monsters and all that.
Skipping "find the quest-giver" stage is that bad?
Also, "here's your mission, now find a way" is pretty common in RPG without legacy of 10x10' room with chest and orc. And even in OSR (Red Tide)
Whether the title of your boss is "Duke", "Major" or "Mr.Johnson" is not an essential difference in itself. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2021 : 19:01:04
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I also don't see much potential use for PCs in such a war. Sure, they can be special forces types, but running ops against a neighboring country, in a fantasy setting, is not going to be as interesting as going off and doing their own thing and slaying monsters and all that.
Skipping "find the quest-giver" stage is that bad?
Also, "here's your mission, now find a way" is pretty common in RPG without legacy of 10x10' room with chest and orc. And even in OSR (Red Tide)
Whether the title of your boss is "Duke", "Major" or "Mr.Johnson" is not an essential difference in itself.
I'm just saying in a fantasy setting, "do this sneaky special ops thing against a neighbor, for king and country" isn't going to compare favorably to "find this lost tomb that holds more gold and magic than you can stuff in a portable hole."
Obviously, both missions will appeal to some, but some settings/systems support and encourage certain adventure-types over the others.
You could do your Mr. Johnson stuff in the Realms, but it'd be guild versus guild or merchant versus merchant -- and it wouldn't be the same as having Hans Brackhaus asking you to break into an offline datastore in Spinrad Global's HQ. Some adventures just work better in particular settings.
(I am now amusing myself, though, with the idea of a bunch of street samurai going on an epic quest to reclaim T'ai Shan Mountain from Lung!) |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Sep 2021 19:01:28 |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2021 : 08:42:54
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Hello TBeholder!
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder Orcs boil out from their territories because they can't stay. Due to overpopulation and overhunting, in search of more food etc.
How do you even define "win" condition for this? To get some food, survive, return home with loot? I'm sure some of them do, every time. What of it?
Looking at the history of human migration around the globe, there is always people moving out to find more space. That is what gets orcs next to other folks and the start of low level conflict. Horde's are another thing. One man's horde is another man's army. That requires leadership and the basics of a command structure. Not the kind of command structure that would really threaten, say, a Roman legion, but enough. It also requires commonality of purpose. It takes hundreds of years for an area of a bunch of fighting tribes to get to the point where they are able to identify under a common (enough) banner. Once that identity is hammered into place it is really hard to undo.
I suppose one of my assumptions is that orcs are not as dumb a sack of rocks. They somehow have enough intelligence to perpetuate their species. Which means they have figured out how to raise children to adulthood in a resource scarce environment. So they are not going to simply slaughter all the cattle. They'll eat their fill, but they will take a lot home. If they go home. If they have just conquered much more bountiful land, then why would they go home? For instance, the Moonsea cities were periodically wiped out and then a little while later humans would reclaim their cities. It's like, orcs are supposed to be so dumb they can't figure out that staying near the coast where it is warmer is better living. Really? How about they keep the conquered cities. They might not be able to maintain the walls as well as humans, they might not be able to fish as well as humans, they might not be as good running coastal vessels to other coastal orc tribes as humans, they might not be able to command slaves as well as humans, but to be completely unable?
With the distance of "that's hundreds of years ago" it's a more fuzzy picture that can be hung as background. But for current continuity in my game? Nah. If orcs conquer a city in my game then they will keep the city and enslave the inhabitants. Orcs might not be able to farm well, for instance, but they can find have orcs crack whips over their human slaves to do it.
quote:
Then said charismatic (and strong) leader gets killed in battle or otherwise dies, and it's back to square #1.
In history, there are always leaders. Not every leader is a great leader, but they don't have to be. Going forty to a hundred years without a decent leader? Yeah, I can accept that. But 300 years? Nah. And after each leader who innovates and creates new methods of organizing and such, those innovations aren't just thrown away. Societies build over time. I should think that it would make for a better game for this to be true for orc societies as well. It would be more like 2 steps forward 1 step back. Repeat that often enough and a society gets somewhere.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It could also be that if an orc horde came through, killing everyone and leveling everything, then you don't have much left for a setting. Wanna play an elf? Too bad, orcs killed them all. Oh, you wanna be a halfling? Sorry, the last halfling in the setting was barbecued at an orc birthday party last week.
I find it interesting that you assume the orcs would simultaneously be intelligent and competent enough to be able to kill EVERYBODY, but not intelligent and competent enough to not do so.
quote:
[i]Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm just saying in a fantasy setting, "do this sneaky special ops thing against a neighbor, for king and country" isn't going to compare favorably to "find this lost tomb that holds more gold and magic than you can stuff in a portable hole."
I could hardly disagree more. Look, the real reward for the adventure is not the big bag of loot you get at the end. The real reward is all the cool and interesting stuff that happens along the way. It is about voluntarily confronting chaos and seeing if you can come out victorious. That could be finding a lost tomb guarded by some ancient evil that has a big bag of loot. But that could also be any number of other things. And victory could be and mean many different things as well.
An example may be in order here:
One of my scenarios was "A kingdom could be founded around Yartar and extend up the Dessarin River Valley. Add some time and Yartar becomes more secure and more populous. Then we could get into a Upper Egypt/Lower Egypt situation."
So what could I do with this over the course of a campaign?
Looking at the map, I think I'd want to start the game in Red Larch or Triboar and have the players based out of there to begin with. The reason is they are still small fish and i want a pond that they can become big in. They may move to Waterdeep eventually. I dunno. I am also a big fan of not having any one adventure go on for more than five sessions. I think 3-4 is ideal. In this adventure I might send them to the Krypt Garden Forest, in another adventure I might send them through Yartar to Mirabar, then in another adventure they go to Waterdeep, then another adventure to Yartar. Along the way I am developing NPCs and fleshing out in the players minds the different places. I establish the differences between the places. Yartar at this point is already most of the river systems above it and is harassed by the barbarians from Griffon's Nest. The players are forming opinions and their own goals. I incorporate those opinions and goals into the next adventure. And the opinions and goals at the end of the next adventure into the next. And so on. Not every adventure will involve Yartar. But each time I bring Yartar around the stakes will escalate a little bit. The depth of grudges between the players and NPCs of Yartar might deepen a little bit. There will be adventures where agents of Yartar (a rival adventuring party?) are behind shenanigans in Triboar, Red Larch, and Waterdeep. As I return again to those plot threads and themes, things will continue and escalation may occur. At some point Yartar stops sending so much material down river. Maybe in one adventure Triboar is brought into Yartar. And it doesn't have to be a military thing. Maybe the city is overrun by undead and Yartar is close enough to send immediate aid. The players are on task to dispatch the source of the undead. When the dust settles Yartar's forces hold Triboar and they aren't letting go. And they are doing a competent job of dealing with threats from the Krypt Garden Forest. The people of Triboar might be won over. Suddenly Yartar have a clear march to Red Larch. They aren't acting on it. But what happens down the line? can Waterdeep afford for Yartar to rise in power? Will the campaign get to open warfare between Waterdeep and Yartar? I dunno. It could. And over that time the players will have adventured over a wide geographic area so when they look at a map of the conflict, they aren't just looking at a random map. It will be a map they have been all over of.
In my own game I had 68 sessions spread out over the course of the 3 separate campaigns preceding what is referred to as the Orc War Adventure. One of my long time players asked me "How long were you planning for that?" He was surprised to learn that I hadn't been planning for it at all. I just kept returning to different plot threads and themes and don't really think more than one adventure ahead. I find that is the best way for the game to develop organically. I just got to a point where I considered the players I had, the kind of adventure I wanted to run (an inter-player conflict driven one), and what lingering plot threads and themes I had and it popped into place.
Players can do a sneaky special ops thing against that lich that messed over Triboar. They could also do a sneaky special ops thing against a lot of folks. And it can also build over time. And it isn't solved by killing one big bad guy. Along the way there would be a lot of decisions for the players to make and the most important decisions they make are where they decide not to act. I'd say that the role player to roll player ratio of the game could be about 60/40, maybe 70/30 at times.
Now you could have a twenty session or so campaign built around building to war between Yartar and Waterdeep and have every session be built around the conflict with all kinds of secret ops and it being very plot focused on that. That's fine. I had a friend of mine DM me in a game where that was what was happening. It worked fine. With regards to role player/ roll player ratio, I'd say his game was about 35/65. My character died two sessions before the end of the campaign and I missed out on those last two sessions, but I had a great time in the scenario. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2021 : 01:47:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Looking at the history of human migration around the globe, there is always people moving out to find more space. That is what gets orcs next to other folks and the start of low level conflict. Horde's are another thing. One man's horde is another man's army...
While there are parallels to be drawn with the RW, the FR, like most fantasy worlds, do not have humans as the apex predator. Likewise, orcs are not apex predators. This not only limits expansion of territories for all humanoid races but can be assumed to cause losses of population in proportions equal to the dangers & activity of the apex predators in their regions.
And I really want to know why you assume that orc hordes in FR's history are losers. Hordes, by their nature, must keep winning to continue because they have no unifying identity that will keep them together during grim times - this has always been the key difference between rabbles and armies. A solid defeat will cause dissension as individuals will wonder why it is they follow what is a stranger from one tribe/settlement/identity group, leading groups to split off causing a death spiral of reduced capabilities, greater demands on the remaining warriors, plummeting morale, and additional groups breaking off. So the FR hordes have nothing but success until they hit that breaking point.
IIRC, only the ancient elf nations and maybe the archmages of Netheril have ever succeeded at wiping out a horde, with every other time the horde broken up into individual bands that either hauled their spoils back home or attempted to set themselves up as regional raiders. That would be thousands to tens of thousands of surviving warriors in the area whom are no longer unified. While a victorious opponent may have to lick its wounds and consolidate its control of the battlefield before mopping up operations, these independent bands will be following their own agendas whether that be overrunning under-defended targets of opportunity, fleeing for their lives, returning to earlier conquests, or triumphantly marching back home at the head of a loot train.
But the similarity between the RW and FR orc hordes abruptly ends at the notion that the raiders can occupy the land they raid. Any offspring the raiders sire upon the conquered are not orcs and will never be accepted by other orcs as equals nor will such spawn find acceptance among a conquered people. Real progeny are necessary for orcs to continue as a race, a culture, and an identity which requires more than just the warriors to come out of their lairs. The heart of the tribe (women, children, crafters, cultivators, and laborers) need to come out of their protected spaces to settle these lands that were so easily overrun by the horde - the death of these people is the death of the tribe. I haven't seen any examples in the lore of orc tribes out in the open like those of dwarves, elves, humans, & halflings with the only reason I can surmise being that an exposed tribe is identified as a threat for immediate destruction by other sophont civilizations or regional apex predators. Orc raiders have much to lose by remaining in foreign lands and, if successful/profitable, much to gain by returning home.
For the damage they inflict, hordes are very successful in damaging the productivity, stability, and general health of all the foreign civilizations they attack. This damage and inflicted loss of lives will cost those civilizations time and resources to rebuild if there is any remaining will to do so after the bloody campaign. That rehabilitation of their own territories prevents those foreign civilizations from using those resources to foray into orc territories which keeps their tribes safe. The warriors who come back are strong & capable veterans while the weak & inept either died or were left behind, ensuring that the tribes will be stronger. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2021 : 04:59:48
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon And I really want to know why you assume that orc hordes in FR's history are losers.
Because the territory they hold today is limited to mountains and otherwise inhospitable land. If they were successful in toppling empires, okay. Then there should be some decent orc homelands. But there is not. In the sourcebooks, they are confined to the fringes.
quote:
[i]I haven't seen any examples in the lore of orc tribes out in the open like those of dwarves, elves, humans, & halflings with the only reason I can surmise being that an exposed tribe is identified as a threat for immediate destruction by other sophont civilizations or regional apex predators.
I forget which sourcebook this was in, but there was an area of orcs that had gotten into farming and forgot everything about splitting skulls. I thought that was lazy on the designers part.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2021 : 05:57:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
I forget which sourcebook this was in, but there was an area of orcs that had gotten into farming and forgot everything about splitting skulls. I thought that was lazy on the designers part.
You thought it was lazy design to take a small group of a particular race in an entirely different direction than their established norm?  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2021 : 06:10:40
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No. I thought that having the orcs forget everything about splitting skulls was lazy. Because instead of doing something interesting, the devs immediately turned those orcs into victims.
Orcs being chill, grow crops, and splitting the skulls of only those who mess with them? That's interesting.
Orcs being chill, grow crops, and immediately becoming enslaved because they forgot how to split skulls? Super lame and super lazy. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2021 : 13:12:51
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Then forget the western orcs and look at the orcs of eastern Faerun. You have Thesk: "Sembia provided funds to hire mercenaries, and Zhentil Keep contributed 1000 Orcs... The Orcs decided to settle in the country, becoming 'civilized,' and the people of Thesk grew to accept them." Thay: "Orcs and half-orcs were well-tolerated within the badlands, as they were commonly found as enforcers and soldiers within Thayan legions." Ostraland: "... the region was populated by tribes of orcs in the mountains as well as humans and dwarves in the town of Palischuk, plus a growing population of half-orcs emerging from the confluence of these groups." And particularly the Gray Orcs around the Moonsea and Hordeland regions. All of these are minority populations with no real political representation in governance of the encompassing civilization or nation. The orc surface kingdoms (Illusk, Vastar, Uruth Ukrypt) of the past have all been destroyed by outside forces, often in waves of attacks from multiple sources (elves, dragons, dwarves, humans, goblinoids, other savage humanoids, etc...).
But if you are really looking for an interesting take on orcs then I refer you to John Wick's "Orkworld; however, this material has no connection to the FR. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2021 : 17:39:06
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"All of these are minority populations with no real political representation in governance of the encompassing civilization or nation."
This, IMHO, makes them losers. They either go as an invisible minority or have unsuccessful kingdoms to be toppled by the standard Tolkien-races and be relegated to the fringes of the world. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2021 : 19:01:51
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Just curious... what's with all the orc love lately? Honestly, if anything I'd think people would be more wondering why there aren't hobgoblin kingdoms/territories. Hobgoblins are what orcs were supposed to be in earlier editions... they're organized, understand command structures, understand battle tactics, etc... If I'm surprised by any group not having a land of their own, its the hobgoblins.
Just curious in that respect..... if you were going to "shoehorn" in a hobgoblin kingdom in the realms, where would you do it? I'm thinking the mountains near Impiltur, up in Vaasa, and in the icy areas north of Narfell (some of which have been hinted as having hobgoblin tribes, like in the chronicles of Nindawen novels, but not necessarily in sourcebooks). I also wouldn't be surprised to find them in the hordelands. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2021 : 20:23:42
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just curious... what's with all the orc love lately?
You mean in general? Or just in this topic? Personally, I'm just sick tired of the Tolkienist stereotype of "evil, dumb orcs", so I prefer my orcs more capable and not always evil. I tend to portray them as the Warcraft orcs in my games.
I'd like to see a hobgoblin kingdom, as well. Actually, anything that is different from the now tired clichι Tolkien-stereotypes is something I'd welcome gladly.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just curious in that respect..... if you were going to "shoehorn" in a hobgoblin kingdom in the realms, where would you do it?
I think that the Hordelands would be ok. It will be not disruptive to the other civilizations of Faerun as putting it in the map.
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2021 : 21:28:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Personally, I'm just sick tired of the Tolkienist stereotype of "evil, dumb orcs", so I prefer my orcs more capable and not always evil. I tend to portray them as the Warcraft orcs in my games.
I agree and would also like to see the orcs expanded beyond just being mindless brutes. I don't necessarily mind their war-like ways, but they shouldn't always be depicted as being purely evil. It's just that their general warrior lifestyle and culture often puts them at odds with other races.
And also when compared with Tolkien's orcs, at least Tolkien's orcs were industrious and carved many mighty and formidable kingdoms, even if their craftsmanship was poor and crude (but they make up for it by being able to mass produce arms and armour). In FR there are barely any orc or goblin realms save for Many-Arrow's.
Also it seems like, at least in terms of the way orcs have been depicted in the North and Western Heartlands, they always have almost beast-like genocidal bent to destroy and kill everyone and everything that isn't an orc. I would think it more interesting instead if they behaved like RW barbarian tribes of the past. They plunder and sack settlements for practical reasons like sustenance and prestige, but they certainly wouldn't mind negotiating with human and other realms to avoid bloodshed. And also it would be interesting if those times where an orc horde manages to subdue or conquer a great city like Sundabar for example, that instead of killing and enslaving literally everyone, and burning and razing the city to the ground, and essentially depriving it of everything of value, they would instead sometimes install themselves as the new rulers of the city. And then gradually you could have them starting to adopt and mix with the customs and faiths of the local populace just like the many barbarian tribes that invaded the Roman Empire, Persia or China, etc. And then you could have you would have an interesting political situation with discontent and resentment from the previous ruling class of humans that now have to suffer humiliation at being under "yoke of orcish barbarians", as well as from the orcish traditionalists that don't want to be corrupted by the treacherous ways of civilization.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just curious in that respect..... if you were going to "shoehorn" in a hobgoblin kingdom in the realms, where would you do it?
I think that the Hordelands would be ok. It will be not disruptive to the other civilizations of Faerun as putting it in the map.
I think that would be a good spot as well. Though it seems that centaurs and gnolls are one of the most prominent non-human races in that region as well.
The Shaar could also be a good spot for hobgoblin horselords, since there are so few orcs in the Shining South (save for the Shining Lands area). Maybe zebra-riding ones (unless mistaken I think some Shaaryan tribes rode zebras) to help give it a unique fantastical flair. |
Edited by - deserk on 04 Sep 2021 21:30:04 |
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Economic Models of the Realms?
