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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Aug 2021 : 19:40:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I decided to keep spellcasting with largely gp related spell components and costs so making a bag of holding for instance is not insanely cheap.
I knew someone would come along and try to refute that
In 5e, a bag of holding costs between 100 and 500 gold and is considered an "uncommon" magic item.
In 5e, two draft horses is 100 gold. A wagon is 35 gold. You have to pay feed and stabling fees for horses.
The versatility of a bag of holding would enable merchants to carry all their really "special stuff", up to 500 pounds and up to 64 square feet, into their rooms wherever they go. That's a huge advantage for a travelling merchant, and so if bags of holding were not plentiful they wouldn't cost so little. Even moreso if they're travelling in dangerous territory and may need to run with their best goods from bandits.
Note, I say cheap... they still are enough that many merchants may not have one, but anyone with a wagon full of goods crossing any decent length of terrain I'd personally expect to have one. I wouldn't be surprised with some merchants even having several and travelling with a wagon full of junk just to make it appear that they aren't worth attacking. I don't see it like it's often described that "only the most rich would have such a thing".... not when an "uncommon" magic item is listed as something that even a 1st level character might have. There may be some travelling merchant caravans using 50 of the things, all of which may be secreted in various hiding places amongst their cargo or carried by a select group of people. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2021 : 00:13:50
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Some of those that looked at Waterdeep clearly were aware of Goldenfields. It are only Thirty square miles and 5,000 residents. It is not stated how many farm of those. Traditional yields without magic tended to work out to an acre could feed one adult for a year. Under that calculation only about twelve thousand citizens of Waterdeep could be given food. After all the 5,000 at Goldenfields need to eat as well.
Clearly magic of Chauntea, however other then the statement that vast numbers of people are given food there is no explanation of how that much food produced.
It is hard to build a model of even a smaller temple being used in any place else. There is no mathematical data to work from.
Not to start any arguments, and its obviously going to vary on editions, but "that's using the idea that planting is done in traditional methods". If Goldenfields is god blessed land, and its full of druids, all running around throwing seeds and doing druidcraft to make the seeds sprout immediately... things may grow a lot faster and they may be able to put out loads more per acre than we might understand. Because of this, there might be a lot more reverence for Chauntea by the citizens than what we picture (because I know some people are like "Chauntea... yawn").
For all we know too, the problems we have with using sewage containing human waste with the spreading of disease in crops might easily be eliminated with magic, and thus goldenfield might be sitting right next to a goldmine of manure from the sewers of Waterdeep.
Yes we know Goldenfield is highly powered by deity blessings, it does not matter what edition. My comment was we are not told how the blessing works or even how many people per acre are fed (Or amount of people in total food is produced). Clearly tradition, non magical assisted farming can not complete with that.
Yes the magic of this area might grow crops in days, harvest them by magic hand or other spells and even load the wagons or teleport the food to Waterdeep and the "neighboring settlements" for free.
As far as economic models that much free food by itself becomes hard to model to the rest of the world.
As far as the sewage, they is fertilizer and energy to be derived from that. Just maybe Goldenfields takes it away for its use to produce the food. That could reduce some problems real world cities need to deal with. Even if not taking all, taking some would help. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2021 : 03:42:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur
I think another interesting question might be how something as simple as a portable hole could change the economy. A few of these and you can haul a lot of anything, nearly anywhere. No more worrying about water and food for the horses or wagon crew. Then there is Spelljamming and just misc flying ships.
Speaking of Spelljammer - hold of holding. Up to 50x50x10 ft.
The important part is not that it allows to haul more cargo, but that it allows to optimize more for reduced risks instead of cargo volume.
Generally, magic items are expensive. And of course the big players are the ones who can take advantage of something that requires a very steep one-time investment that pays off slowly. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2021 : 14:54:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
For all we know too, the problems we have with using sewage containing human waste with the spreading of disease in crops might easily be eliminated with magic, and thus goldenfield might be sitting right next to a goldmine of manure from the sewers of Waterdeep.
Heh, the little-known spell cleanse waste, sometimes referred to as poo-rify. 
Lol, or something more common... transmute mud to rock... move the rock... transmute rock to mud several days later.... I could see being "rapidly dried up" by magic and then left like that for several days/weeks/months being a fairly efficient way to rapidly kill off disease. Perhaps there's even a "dung retrieval" team that periodically goes into the sewers to create and haul out large rocks of sewage (bringing a construct or elemental with them for the heavy lifting).... they literally get the "shit detail".
This made me so curious about using this concept under 3.5, I went and looked up the spell. Area effect 2 10 foot cubes/caster level, so 2 wagon sized rocks per level... 5th level spell... 9th level caster... so on a daily basis riding into the sewers with this prepared maybe twice with 36 wagons to haul out "rocks" of manure. I could see this happening, even if its by giving a magic item that can cast it to a lesser caster. The caster goes in, makes the rocks, then leaves... carters, etc... do the work of hauling it out by breaking it into viable chunks. The city may provide prisoners to work at breaking the rocks apart, or it might be handled by a construct with a giant hammer hand and a big chisel or somesuch.
Granted, even this isn't a lot of material to cover all of Goldenfields, but 36 carts a day of 10 foot cubes spread to a height of 3 inches could coat several acres a day (roughly 1728 10ftx10ftx3inch cubes.... or 30 feet x 1 mile per day if I'm calculating right.. or roughly 4 acres a day.. almost 1500 acres a year.. about 2 and a half square miles per year of solid fertilizer <which in most fields there are gaps, so we might throw that upwards to 3-4 square miles>). Any idea how physically large Goldenfields is in square miles?
Of course, they might also empty via pipeline into some underground chamber, and then have something like a fire elemental in the chamber baking away disease as well, and in another area further along maybe they rehydrate the dried dung by paying a youth to "shoot" it with a decanter of endless water in bursts. Goldenfield may have whole pipelines that they "switch to" to then have this flowing mud delivered to different fields periodically. Ok, now I need to stop.... this has gathered too much of my interest. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 25 Aug 2021 15:54:50 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2021 : 15:40:46
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| I guess this is highly possible given that usually the people in charge of dung cleaning and that stuff are adventures in times of need for "easy" money (per Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster's Forgotten Realms), and all adventurer groups have at least one spellcaster, minimum. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 25 Aug 2021 15:42:17 |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
746 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2021 : 17:47:52
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
For all we know too, the problems we have with using sewage containing human waste with the spreading of disease in crops might easily be eliminated with magic, and thus goldenfield might be sitting right next to a goldmine of manure from the sewers of Waterdeep.
Heh, the little-known spell cleanse waste, sometimes referred to as poo-rify.
Lol, or something more common... transmute mud to rock... move the rock... transmute rock to mud several days later.... I could see being "rapidly dried up" by magic and then left like that for several days/weeks/months being a fairly efficient way to rapidly kill off disease. Perhaps there's even a "dung retrieval" team that periodically goes into the sewers to create and haul out large rocks of sewage (bringing a construct or elemental with them for the heavy lifting).... they literally get the "shit detail".
This made me so curious about using this concept under 3.5, I went and looked up the spell. Area effect 2 10 foot cubes/caster level, so 2 wagon sized rocks per level... 5th level spell... 9th level caster... so on a daily basis riding into the sewers with this prepared maybe twice with 36 wagons to haul out "rocks" of manure. I could see this happening, even if its by giving a magic item that can cast it to a lesser caster. The caster goes in, makes the rocks, then leaves... carters, etc... do the work of hauling it out by breaking it into viable chunks. The city may provide prisoners to work at breaking the rocks apart, or it might be handled by a construct with a giant hammer hand and a big chisel or somesuch.
Granted, even this isn't a lot of material to cover all of Goldenfields, but 36 carts a day of 10 foot cubes spread to a height of 3 inches could coat several acres a day (roughly 1728 10ftx10ftx3inch cubes.... or 30 feet x 1 mile per day if I'm calculating right.. or roughly 4 acres a day.. almost 1500 acres a year.. about 2 and a half square miles per year of solid fertilizer <which in most fields there are gaps, so we might throw that upwards to 3-4 square miles>). Any idea how physically large Goldenfields is in square miles?
Of course, they might also empty via pipeline into some underground chamber, and then have something like a fire elemental in the chamber baking away disease as well, and in another area further along maybe they rehydrate the dried dung by paying a youth to "shoot" it with a decanter of endless water in bursts. Goldenfield may have whole pipelines that they "switch to" to then have this flowing mud delivered to different fields periodically. Ok, now I need to stop.... this has gathered too much of my interest.
Interesting idea, though a "small" field is still 400 acres or so.
Also, note it's 110 miles one way to Red Larch, so it would take days and an entire never ending train of poop wagons going to Goldenfields and back.
Which travel would only be possible like 4-5 months out of the year. |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 03:02:07
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Hello sleyvas!
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
If Goldenfields is god blessed land, and its full of druids, all running around throwing seeds and doing druidcraft to make the seeds sprout immediately... things may grow a lot faster and they may be able to put out loads more per acre than we might understand.
If. That is the important word there. One of the interesting strengths of Forgotten Realms is that there is so much that does not make sense. In this manner it actively encourages players to use their imagination to make sense of things that do not make sense. This gets the players more invested in the world.
As it is, we're trying to explain something that I cannot imagine was any part of Ed Greenwood's thought process when he drew the map.
Looking at the map and considering the amount of agriculture that would be needed to sustain the population Waterdeep is supposed to have, it would make sense to me that Waterdeep to have anchored it's territory to the Delimbiyr River to the South, the Sword Mountains to the North, the High Forest in the East. The tributary from The Lost Peaks that feeds into the Dessarin would be the best line to anchor the northern border. They would want Triboar to be a stopgaps at the weakest part of the northern border. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 12:07:30
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Rome, the capital city of the Roman Empire, had a peak population of roughly 1 million people in the 2nd century. The ancient romans had access to neither magic nor the advanced technologies of the 14th-15th century Forgotten Realms. So, why cannot the city state of Waterdeep cope with as many? quote:
As per the FRWiki: In the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3rd edition, the population of Waterdeep is stated to be 1,347,840, though the metropolitan population is 132,661. This is because Waterdeep commands 40 mile stretches of farmland outside the borders of the city itself, and is counted in the population. Thus, the population in the city proper of Waterdeep is probably about 200,000.
Even if we take the conservatively estimate of 1 person being fed for an entire year using medieval farming practices on 1 acre of land, that means that a 46 mile x 46 mile plot of land (at 640 acres per square mile) would feed the stated population of the greater Waterdeep area (about 1.4 million in the 3.5 FRCS). The above mentioned "40 mile stretches of farmland" is an exact reference but it does indicate that the amount of agriculture that the authors set aside in the lore is in the general ballpark of the harvest needs. Don't forget that Waterdeep is also a harbor and can harvest seafood & marine resources as well as various cultivated supplies from aquaculture. Whatever is not handled by this immediate production capacity can be supplied by the constant influx of materials & foodstuff from all the nearby trade partners that would benefit from selling their goods in the lucrative Waterdhavian market. Laden cargo fleets ride the tides into harbor each day and wagon loads of produce begin pouring in when the gates open each morning.
As sages have stated in other topics, many things do not make sense in the realms; however, Waterdeep being capable of feeding its population actually does make sense. Just like 30 square miles x 640 acres per square mile will conservatively feed 19,200 people which is more than 14K greater than the population 5K population talked about in Kentinal's post. Using advanced farming techniques practiced in various places during the historically equivalent 13th-14th centuries in the real world will feed more than the 1 person per acre baseline and may be substantially more with the influence of gods & magic in the FR. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 13:58:56
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Rome, the capital city of the Roman Empire, had a peak population of roughly 1 million people in the 2nd century. The ancient romans had access to neither magic nor the advanced technologies of the 14th-15th century Forgotten Realms. So, why cannot the city state of Waterdeep cope with as many? quote:
As per the FRWiki: In the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3rd edition, the population of Waterdeep is stated to be 1,347,840, though the metropolitan population is 132,661. This is because Waterdeep commands 40 mile stretches of farmland outside the borders of the city itself, and is counted in the population. Thus, the population in the city proper of Waterdeep is probably about 200,000.
Even if we take the conservatively estimate of 1 person being fed for an entire year using medieval farming practices on 1 acre of land, that means that a 46 mile x 46 mile plot of land (at 640 acres per square mile) would feed the stated population of the greater Waterdeep area (about 1.4 million in the 3.5 FRCS). The above mentioned "40 mile stretches of farmland" is an exact reference but it does indicate that the amount of agriculture that the authors set aside in the lore is in the general ballpark of the harvest needs. Don't forget that Waterdeep is also a harbor and can harvest seafood & marine resources as well as various cultivated supplies from aquaculture. Whatever is not handled by this immediate production capacity can be supplied by the constant influx of materials & foodstuff from all the nearby trade partners that would benefit from selling their goods in the lucrative Waterdhavian market. Laden cargo fleets ride the tides into harbor each day and wagon loads of produce begin pouring in when the gates open each morning.
As sages have stated in other topics, many things do not make sense in the realms; however, Waterdeep being capable of feeding its population actually does make sense. Just like 30 square miles x 640 acres per square mile will conservatively feed 19,200 people which is more than 14K greater than the population 5K population talked about in Kentinal's post. Using advanced farming techniques practiced in various places during the historically equivalent 13th-14th centuries in the real world will feed more than the 1 person per acre baseline and may be substantially more with the influence of gods & magic in the FR.
That's what I've not been able to understand about this whole discussion -- why it's somehow impossible, when magic is an option, to do something that happened in multiple places in the real world without magic. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 14:50:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
Interesting idea, though a "small" field is still 400 acres or so.
Also, note it's 110 miles one way to Red Larch, so it would take days and an entire never ending train of poop wagons going to Goldenfields and back.
Which travel would only be possible like 4-5 months out of the year.
Fair points, though my googling would call that an average farm and small in US terms is 200. Still, that's why I kind of got into nitpicky details, because it could be interesting to try and actually delve something like this. Perhaps rather than using wagons then to get it, something else... a small portal in the sewers that is in the floor like a drain, and periodically someone has to open some valve that opens a path to this drain. Said portal may only allow sewerage or inanimate earth through. This portal might open into some underground chamber beneath goldenfields, with separate chambers to treat sewerage over time that might be filled in like a circular pattern via a moving pipe. Access to this valve room might be something that's done via teleport or somesuch. Seem more viable?
Partly why this has caught my interest so much is just wondering how MANY cities of the realms might deal with this kind of stuff. I say that because Waterdeep is big, but there's MANY cities that rival it in size. The idea that many cities might not need near as extensive of a sewerage system because they use a portal to dump the sewerage somewhere else..... and that there may be someone at that somewhere else who is making money off that sewerage or using it for fertilizer, etc... Granted, I'm not picturing the realms with indoor plumbing everywhere, but we do know that these cities have sewers. A portal getting installed may be a "quick fix" for a city which suddenly grew and didn't have the manpower to expand its sewers (because the sh*t still has to go somewhere).
It may even be that for Waterdeep, they developed this "method" of removing waste after they learned from the Debacle that created the rat hills. The rat hills might be the place that they still use for things that aren't easily recycled for some other use (and I see them actually chopping up old wooden furniture to use as firewood, melting and reusing metal components, burning old grease soaked cloth that was turned into cleaning cloths as tinder on fires, etc... ).
Oh, and @Kelcimer, regarding the idea that Ed probably never delved this... I won't say never.... I bet just like us he wondered about this kind of thing (and thus the creation of the rat hills), and it would be interesting to see what kind of discussions of this odd sort have occurred in WotC or TSR's halls. Now, did they go to the detail we've gone so far? Maybe not. But you are right, it is this kind of thing that creates investment into the world. I can honestly say... last week I didn't think I'd be discussing how fecal matter leaves Waterdeep.... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 27 Aug 2021 15:48:57 |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
746 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 15:52:38
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
Interesting idea, though a "small" field is still 400 acres or so.
Also, note it's 110 miles one way to Red Larch, so it would take days and an entire never ending train of poop wagons going to Goldenfields and back.
Which travel would only be possible like 4-5 months out of the year.
Fair points, though my googling would call that an average farm and small in US terms is 200. Still, that's why I kind of got into nitpicky details, because it could be interesting to try and actually delve something like this. Perhaps rather than using wagons then to get it, something else... a small portal in the sewers that is in the floor like a drain, and periodically someone has to open some valve that opens a path to this drain. Said portal may only allow sewerage or inanimate earth through. This portal might open into some underground chamber beneath goldenfields, with separate chambers to treat sewerage over time that might be filled in like a circular pattern via a moving pipe. Access to this valve room might be something that's done via teleport or somesuch. Seem more viable?
Partly why this has caught my interest so much is just wondering how MANY cities of the realms might deal with this kind of stuff. I say that because Waterdeep is big, but there's MANY cities that rival it in size. The idea that many cities might not need near as extensive of a sewerage system because they use a portal to dump the sewerage somewhere else..... and that there may be someone at that somewhere else who is making money off that sewerage or using it for fertilizer, etc... Granted, I'm not picturing the realms with indoor plumbing everywhere, but we do know that these cities have sewers. A portal getting installed may be a "quick fix" for a city which suddenly grew and didn't have the manpower to expand its sewers (because the sh*t still has to go somewhere).
It may even be that for Waterdeep, they developed this "method" of removing waste after they learned from the Debacle that created the rat hills. The rat hills might be the place that they still use for things that aren't easily recycled for some other use (and I see them actually chopping up old wooden furniture to use as firewood, melting and reusing metal components, burning old grease soaked cloth that was turned into cleaning cloths as tinder on fires, etc... ).
There are so many more nuances to this type of discussion.
1) yields are not static across the landscape
2) not everything can be grown in every place
3) With dry land farming yields are extremely low and limited in scope (mostly grains, a few legumes) No vegetables or other critical foodstuffs.
I would argue that Rome had even MORE sophisticated systems in place than Waterdeep does so it's a bit comparing apples to oranges.
They had a massive empire, well connected by safe and well developed roads which were passable all year round.
They had aqueducts and other irrigation solutions that simply do not exist in the realms.
The climate was completely different, allowing the growth of other foodstuffs other than basic grains.
They had the largest empire in the world to funnel goods directly to their city, in a safe efficient and year around manner.
Including access to other entire continents not far away.
Waterdeep has none of those. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 16:20:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
I would argue that Rome had even MORE sophisticated systems in place than Waterdeep does so it's a bit comparing apples to oranges.
They had a massive empire, well connected by safe and well developed roads which were passable all year round.
They had aqueducts and other irrigation solutions that simply do not exist in the realms.
The climate was completely different, allowing the growth of other foodstuffs other than basic grains.
They had the largest empire in the world to funnel goods directly to their city, in a safe efficient and year around manner.
Including access to other entire continents not far away.
Waterdeep has none of those.
Waterdeep has roads that are accessible year-round and access to other continents, though those continents aren't close.
Waterdeep also has a very well-developed port and plenty of trading partners.
But the empire thing is irrelevant. How much food is actually going to be shipped thousands of miles, given that level of technology? Most foods are not going to be transported all that far -- not only is the shipping of rarer and more exotic materials more profitable, food will become unusable in a much shorter span of time. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Aug 2021 16:21:15 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 17:01:40
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Then we have to add stuff like guys using monsters to create food and that stuff, as discussed in this topic:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24074 |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 18:17:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Then we have to add stuff like guys using monsters to create food and that stuff, as discussed in this topic:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24074
Hmmm, deepspawn again.... that does bring to mind an idea. What about a deepspawn that can specifically create creatures that are beneficial to plant growth. I can't think of any offhand... but I'm betting someone can (a treant "spawn" might be especially useful for clearing trees from acreage or moving other trees from growing up around fruit trees, etc...). Wow, I could definitely see Chaunteans wrestling with that morally..... but some other "evil" druids like Malarites might have much fewer qualms (so long as it produces a place that feeds things for them to hunt).
EDIT: Hmmm, thinking on this, the creatures of my own creation (wildleaf stags) are noted to use druidcraft to grow small plants. Now I'm picturing feeding one to a deepspawn. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 27 Aug 2021 18:21:54 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2021 : 19:24:29
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Then we have to add stuff like guys using monsters to create food and that stuff, as discussed in this topic:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24074
Hmmm, deepspawn again.... that does bring to mind an idea. What about a deepspawn that can specifically create creatures that are beneficial to plant growth. I can't think of any offhand... but I'm betting someone can (a treant "spawn" might be especially useful for clearing trees from acreage or moving other trees from growing up around fruit trees, etc...). Wow, I could definitely see Chaunteans wrestling with that morally..... but some other "evil" druids like Malarites might have much fewer qualms (so long as it produces a place that feeds things for them to hunt).
EDIT: Hmmm, thinking on this, the creatures of my own creation (wildleaf stags) are noted to use druidcraft to grow small plants. Now I'm picturing feeding one to a deepspawn.
Insects and worms would be the most directly beneficial, though other animals can have an indirect effect on an overall ecology.
For a deepspawn and issues of food supply, though, various forms of livestock are the best option. Fish/seafood and fowl can work as well, though livestock will produce more food (unless you're talking about seriously big fish). |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2021 : 00:55:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
There are so many more nuances to this type of discussion.
1) yields are not static across the landscape
2) not everything can be grown in every place
3) With dry land farming yields are extremely low and limited in scope (mostly grains, a few legumes) No vegetables or other critical foodstuffs.
Not really, Cards77. This is a fictional setting created and continuously manipulated by the gods/authors. Yields can be static across the landscape simply because the deities of agriculture desire it to be. If a supernatural power wishes it so, then crop yields can be harvested from sheets of ice. In the RW we are limited by natural laws and the capabilities of our technologies - not so the fictional world of the FR which at one time had multiple cities built upon the inverted sheared tops of mountains floating in the air (if they were as small as an Egyptian pyramid then that would be 5.75M tons each that flew at the whims of their masters). Natural disease and infected injuries are not the primary causes of premature death for the people of the FR (though magically induced or inflicted diseases take their toll in various regions) and mass hunger, starvation, drought, crop failures, flooding, vermin plagues, and other constant banes on RW civilizations of the past to the present do not seem to afflict the FR in any dire way.
Really, very few 1:1 comparisons exist between the RW and the FR like the theories of market forces (supply & demand) and the principles of economics (scarcity, labor, models of profit) since they are completely divorced from natural laws that have very tenuous relationships at best between the RW and the FR. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2021 : 04:04:21
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SaMoCon,
The best fantasy has one foot firmly in reality. Yes, you could say that the gods choose to make things operate in inexplicable ways. If that's how you want to run your world, okay. But for a lot of players there is a certain lack of feeling like a connected world. Making an attempt at grappling with these things to create an approximation that is useful for game purposes is that extra layer that helps make the world more of a world, specifically because it can inform NPC motivations and be more believable for DM and players alike. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2021 : 14:54:54
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Kelcimer,
When did I say that the FR was the best fantasy? The FR is a product, one that has been married to several gaming systems that are very poor at tracking and simulating anything approximating the RW. Much of the lore created for the FR have been attempts at justifying system iterations, such as all the non-elf/human races suddenly being able to cast spells when they were not capable of doing so throughout their prior history. In more scrolls than I can remember, many sages have ripped the Realms a new one over things that do not make sense because writers had been lacking in their diligence or callously disregarding the lore of the fantasy world when putting out their "kewl" new FR products for sale.
This lore exists for only one reason: to play a game. That game has very little to do with the real world. The base product is for "Dungeons & Dragons," not "Plowshares & Pitchforks," for a reason - swinging swords and slinging spells followed by looting the bodies so some NPCs can call the PCs "heroes." This same game has mechanics that relegate a 12 inch blade to being an inconvenient loss of a up to 4 HP instead of the potentially lethal instrument when jammed into a person's torso. A highly experienced PC damaged to its last remaining 1 HP will still operate at 100% capability in spite of whatever horrific events caused these injuries (swallowed whole by a purple worm, burned by a fire elemental, fell into a spiked pit trap, etc...). It seems to me that the gods have already had their inexplicable ways with many things we hold to be inviolable in the RW.
Bluntly, arguing that there are "nuances" in a fictional world that should overwrite what the authors have already made RW equivalent allowances/fictional answers for just because a sage had the legs of their logical argument kicked out from under them is nothing short of annoying. Especially since those "nuances" never account for the techniques and technologies of the fictional inhabitants (y'know - humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, etc...), that kind of argument ignores the FR world which was supposed to be the basis of the discussion. Advanced civilizations have existed in the setting for tens of thousands of years when the indigenous human populations were still primitive savages. And, yes, gods have had their hands in altering the mortal world as they wish, and that is not the way I want to run my world but is the way that the FR is. *BAMF* These humans are suddenly in the setting... *BAMF* and now their gods are, too... *BAMF* and now their all gone... *BAMF* Wait! Who are these new lizardfolk... *BAMF* and now they are back? That one foot in reality is planted squarely on black ice.
As for players lacking a connection... that's the job of the GM. No amount of outside lore can ever replace the fictional game world interface that is the GM. The players are interacting with what the GM has in mind so anything the players are having trouble grasping is with or without malice the fault of the GM through carelessness, dereliction, or ineptitude. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2021 : 19:39:56
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SaMoCon,
I do not believe that Kelcimer is saying that FR is the best fantasy, that instead a best fantasy world does have a solid connection to reality. So that an economic model can be built.
Goldenfields hurts having any such connection to reality in FR because it is BAMF and with magic not even explained.. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2021 : 20:06:13
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Hello SaMoCon!
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Kelcimer,
When did I say that the FR was the best fantasy?
You didn't.
Forgotten Realms is a mess. That is actually a strength that has made it so popular. It is a campaign setting of campaign settings. The secret to running the Realms is to figure out what parts you want to focus on and what parts you want discard.
But when it comes to running a game of DnD (a fantasy roleplaying game) I should think most DM's and players would like to make their fantasy game the best that it can be, even if they are using a setting that is, strictly speaking, "not the best fantasy".
Having a rough approximation of what is going on in the world as relates to agriculture, trade, and economics can help that quite a bit. It enables a lot of DM's to create the best kind of fantasy they can deliver that is a good time for both them and their players.
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
This lore exists for only one reason: to play a game. That game has very little to do with the real world.
Why does the lore exist? It exists for multiple reasons. We could say that the lore exists to sell a product. That is a very real world thing. We could say the lore exists to excite the imagination and for entertainment. Those are both real world things.
Does a dagger only do up to 4 HP of damage? Yes, because of the real world limitations of a pen and paper game system being able to approximate combat. There are other game systems that do a far better job of making combat realistic, but their combat is also more time consuming and tedious and therefore not as much fun.
There are conceits to any gaming system and I will grant that DnD/Pathfinder has a lot of peculiar conceits. That's not really the point, though. The game is a narrative experience. And it is a thing of what can you do at your table to make it the best narrative experience for the DM and the players.
When the bad guys, city-states, nations, and organizations have goals and motivations that hold up under scrutiny, that's cool. That makes for a better game experience. When the intelligent bad guy is genuinely intelligent in his planning and plots, that's cool. All of that contributes to a better narrative experience for a lot of gamers.
And people care about narrative experiences. Humans are story telling creatures. That all has quite a lot to do with the real world of human experience. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2021 : 05:24:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
... a best fantasy world does have a solid connection to reality. So that an economic model can be built...
Why do you believe that is even necessary when building an economy? Is there something special about RW perceptions for the laws of physics that affects the price of wood planks in the FR? Portal networks defy our concepts of distance, supernatural creatures supersede RW technological accomplishments, energy & material objects can be spontaneously created from nothing, and immortality (not dying from the affects of aging) is achievable through a variety of methods. Market forces & economic principles can model these vagaries despite the fact that they contradict our collective perception of the RW natural universe.
So, what is breaking your mind about Waterdeep being well fed that "reality" wouldn't allow and for which the authors have been silent? |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2021 : 06:03:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
SaMoCon,
I do not believe that Kelcimer is saying that FR is the best fantasy, that instead a best fantasy world does have a solid connection to reality. So that an economic model can be built.
Goldenfields hurts having any such connection to reality in FR because it is BAMF and with magic not even explained..
Exactly.
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Why do you believe that is even necessary when building an economy?
When we game we are making various concessions to the conceits of the world. You know, suspending disbelief. But the more and more things you have to suspend disbelief for, then the more of a strain it is on the person. I want to have to suspend my disbelief about magic and combat systems and all of that. But I'm not signing up to suspend disbelief about a whole lot of how the world works. We are being pitched that it is a "fantasy" "world". We know unconsciously how a "world" works. We just want one with the fantastic elements. When the world presented is asking us to suspend disbelief not for the "fantasy" part, but the "world" part, then people object.
Does that not make sense? |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2021 : 06:28:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Does that not make sense?
Actually, no, it doesn't makes sense.
If I'm understanding you well, you're saying that you're ok with magic until they say "magic can change the laws of physics". Like, you can grow magical food, you know? Even if that is not possible in our "real" world, it's perfectly possible in the "fantasy" world of the Realms. And it follows the same principles that allow elves and fireballs being a thing in the Realms.
If you're ok with elves, then you should be ok with the concept of magical food. Or the inverse. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 30 Aug 2021 06:30:56 |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2021 : 07:27:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
If I'm understanding you well, you're saying that you're ok with magic until they say "magic can change the laws of physics".
No. Consider the Fireball spell. I want the fireball to violate known physics of being able to appear on command, out of thin air, fly through the air, and otherwise do things that a person and fire can't do in real life.
But it needs to behave like fire. It needs to burn the people and things it touches. If I through the fireball at a wooden ceiling then I want it to dissipate upon the ceiling in a manner consistent with how fire, air, and smoke actually behave.
Even in the modern setting where most people do not have practical experience with farms, we still understand that historically 90% to 99% of any given population had to devote themselves to agriculture in order for everyone to eat. We are trying to immerse ourselves into this world and are expecting that there is going to be a lot of small villages devoted to agriculture.
Also, in neither the PlayersHandbook nor in the Forgotten Realms campaign books is any time devoted to describing in intense detail all of the advanced the agricultural spells that are in use at any given time to afford any given society 20th century levels of food production.
Why should we expect that any society is going to have 20th century level of food production? Now with Halrurra, you can make a more credible argument that they should have magic everything, and might have magic for their crops, except that it falls apart when looking at a map. They have their territory anchor completely to both sea and mountain, and that they have vast amount of farmland. They have the largest, most well protected navigable river system in Faerun and to appearances, they use all of it. If the largest most magically powerful society in all of Faerun needs that much farmland, then why should a random city set in the middle of a frontier be expected to pull it off? The answer is they shouldn't.
All of this is to get back to the point that we want a world that has fantasy in it, but still, in many regards, operates the way we would expect a world to operate. People need food and that means lots of farmland. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2021 : 10:51:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
If I'm understanding you well, you're saying that you're ok with magic until they say "magic can change the laws of physics".
No. Consider the Fireball spell. I want the fireball to violate known physics of being able to appear on command, out of thin air, fly through the air, and otherwise do things that a person and fire can't do in real life.
But it needs to behave like fire. It needs to burn the people and things it touches. If I through the fireball at a wooden ceiling then I want it to dissipate upon the ceiling in a manner consistent with how fire, air, and smoke actually behave.
Even in the modern setting where most people do not have practical experience with farms, we still understand that historically 90% to 99% of any given population had to devote themselves to agriculture in order for everyone to eat. We are trying to immerse ourselves into this world and are expecting that there is going to be a lot of small villages devoted to agriculture.
Also, in neither the PlayersHandbook nor in the Forgotten Realms campaign books is any time devoted to describing in intense detail all of the advanced the agricultural spells that are in use at any given time to afford any given society 20th century levels of food production.
Why should we expect that any society is going to have 20th century level of food production? Now with Halrurra, you can make a more credible argument that they should have magic everything, and might have magic for their crops, except that it falls apart when looking at a map. They have their territory anchor completely to both sea and mountain, and that they have vast amount of farmland. They have the largest, most well protected navigable river system in Faerun and to appearances, they use all of it. If the largest most magically powerful society in all of Faerun needs that much farmland, then why should a random city set in the middle of a frontier be expected to pull it off? The answer is they shouldn't.
All of this is to get back to the point that we want a world that has fantasy in it, but still, in many regards, operates the way we would expect a world to operate. People need food and that means lots of farmland.
There's a reason questions of food production are consistently left out of the books: because it's irrelevant to most players, and because no one is going to bother memorizing enhance crop yield when they're adventuring.
To borrow a line from another discussion...
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Beyond that, how would you bring that detail into a game and make it something the players actually have to deal with?
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2021 : 16:18:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
All of this is to get back to the point that we want a world that has fantasy in it, but still, in many regards, operates the way we would expect a world to operate. People need food and that means lots of farmland.
You may want that kind of world. I prefer a world that serves my creative needs, lol. I don't need a simulation of the real world to mqke it believable. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 30 Aug 2021 16:19:11 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2021 : 17:01:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
All of this is to get back to the point that we want a world that has fantasy in it, but still, in many regards, operates the way we would expect a world to operate. People need food and that means lots of farmland.
You may want that kind of world. I prefer a world that serves my creative needs, lol. I don't need a simulation of the real world to mqke it believable.
Agreed. And to me, miles of divine superfarm dropped into the middle of a large farming area is more than enough to explain how Waterdeep is fed. I don't need to go into details.
As long as it's not something ridiculous like that 4E map that had a population of 2000 people in something like 150 buildings, I'm not sweating the minor details. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 04:04:55
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Hello Zeromaru X!
quote:
Originally posted by Hello
I don't need a simulation of the real world to mqke it believable.
I would not say it is a simulation of the real world, just an approximation that makes sense.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
You may want that kind of world. I prefer a world that serves my creative needs, lol.
I don't know why you won't want the fire of a fireball to behave like fire, but okay. When adjusting things in the setting in order to make the setting make sense, not everyone is going to adjust same things. You adjust the things you want to adjust and I'll adjust the things I want to adjust.
Hello Wooly Rupert!
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's a reason questions of food production are consistently left out of the books: because it's irrelevant to most players, and because no one is going to bother memorizing enhance crop yield when they're adventuring.
If you acknowledge that questions of food production are consistently left out of the books, then why do you expect us to know your personal theories as to how societies get by without adequete or secure farmland?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
To borrow a line from another discussion...
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Beyond that, how would you bring that detail into a game and make it something the players actually have to deal with?
Oh that’s easy! We are talking about resources here. A lot wars in human history have been fought over resources. It is the simplest most easy way to a) put two societies into conflict and b) allow both sides of the conflict have solid motivation for what they are doing.
The players could be either fighting against one of those sides directly or dealing with it indirectly. Either way, motivation is key. If the folks the players are fighting against don’t have a solid motivation for what they are doing or if they are pursuing a plan that is actively dumb (when the bad guys are supposed to be smart), then that's not as good. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 04:25:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Hello Wooly Rupert!
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's a reason questions of food production are consistently left out of the books: because it's irrelevant to most players, and because no one is going to bother memorizing enhance crop yield when they're adventuring.
If you acknowledge that questions of food production are consistently left out of the books, then why do you expect us to know your personal theories as to how societies get by without adequete or secure farmland?
I am not convinced that there is inadequate or insecure farmland.
I also have not put forward theories based on such.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
To borrow a line from another discussion...
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
Beyond that, how would you bring that detail into a game and make it something the players actually have to deal with?
Oh that’s easy! We are talking about resources here. A lot wars in human history have been fought over resources. It is the simplest most easy way to a) put two societies into conflict and b) allow both sides of the conflict have solid motivation for what they are doing.
The players could be either fighting against one of those sides directly or dealing with it indirectly. Either way, motivation is key. If the folks the players are fighting against don’t have a solid motivation for what they are doing or if they are pursuing a plan that is actively dumb (when the bad guys are supposed to be smart), then that's not as good.
Wars over resources usually involve neighbors and a shortage of resources elsewhere. I do not see that any of the places close to Waterdeep are close enough for a war, nor that there is a lack of resources to trigger such a war.
I also don't see much potential use for PCs in such a war. Sure, they can be special forces types, but running ops against a neighboring country, in a fantasy setting, is not going to be as interesting as going off and doing their own thing and slaying monsters and all that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2021 : 04:47:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
I would not say it is a simulation of the real world, just an approximation that makes sense.
Makes sense in what regard? In my opinion, that a world that has like thousands of years of history of use of magic doesn't apply it to solve day-to-day necessities makes no sense.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
I don't know why you won't want the fire of a fireball to behave like fire, but okay.
What if my magic-user wants the fire to burn some things, but not other things? Using real world logic you cannot do that, but you can do that with fantasy logic (some editions of D&D allow that with some feats or mechanics). The same kind of logic that allows the Realms have elves and dragons, among other things.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimerhow societies get by without adequete or secure farmland?
There is no such things in a land where dragons, orc hordes and magical plagues are real things. Unless you have magic and gods on your side, as well. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Topic |
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Economic Models of the Realms?
