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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Sep 2021 : 21:44:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I'm just sick tired of the Tolkienist stereotype of "evil, dumb orcs", so I prefer my orcs more capable and not always evil. I tend to portray them as the Warcraft orcs in my games.
Warcraft orcs are nearly twice as massive and twice as strong as humans in that setting's original lore before they were nerfed for the WoW MMORPG. Even in the modern WoW lore orcs were genocidal, cruel, easily corrupted, and readily enslaved. D&D orcs are not those orcs. To make D&D orcs more like Warcraft orcs you will need to change their gods, their culture, and their history of interactions with all the other races, which is a lot in the FR. You are better off just creating your own setting than using the FR for that ideal or, more fitting, just using the D20 Warcraft RPG setting to fulfill your expectations.
Edited to correct a statement I had made in error as pointed out to me by Diffan. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
Edited by - SaMoCon on 05 Sep 2021 00:33:11 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2021 : 22:30:40
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Warcraft orcs are nearly twice as massive and twice as strong as humans in that setting's original lore before they were nerfed for the WoW MMORPG.
Original Warcraft (the RTS of the mid-90s) puts them at an average 6 1/2 ft in height, definitely not twice the mass.
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Even in the modern WoW lore orcs were genocidal, cruel, easily corrupted, and readily enslaved.
Um....no? Thrull pretty much took care of that, or more like his father did when he and his clan refused the blood of Mannoroth. See the Wiki ok Warcraft Orcs:
"Rampant demonic corruption caused the orcs to be filled with bloodlust and turned their normally brown skin into shades of green, culminating with Kil'jaeden's servant Gul'dan convincing the orc chieftains to drink the blood of the demon Mannoroth and thereby enslaving them to the Burning Legion's will. The few orcs who escaped the corruption became known as mag'har ("uncorrupted")."
Initially they were not bloodthirsty monsters, simply a Shamanistic clan-based society of hunter and gatherers.
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
D&D orcs are not those orcs. To make D&D orcs more like Warcraft orcs you will need to change their gods, their culture, and their history of interactions with all the other races, which is a lot in the FR. You are better off just creating your own setting than using the FR for that ideal or, more fitting, just using the D20 Warcraft RPG setting to fulfill your expectations.
Eh, maybe not all orcs are so boringly cliché as to be portrayed as murderous psychopaths blindly following Gruumsh's lead? Even Obould, who was thought to be the epitome of Orc-"ness" and blessed by Gruumsh himself founded a remarkable kingdom for his people and sought treaties of peace for a more sustainable future for generations to come. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2021 : 23:15:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just curious... what's with all the orc love lately?
You mean in general? Or just in this topic? Personally, I'm just sick tired of the Tolkienist stereotype of "evil, dumb orcs", so I prefer my orcs more capable and not always evil. I tend to portray them as the Warcraft orcs in my games.
I'd like to see a hobgoblin kingdom, as well. Actually, anything that is different from the now tired cliché Tolkien-stereotypes is something I'd welcome gladly.
When I wrote it, I was thinking both actually. I do recall SOMETHING in the past years out of wizard's maybe also complaining on their treatment of orcs. I don't recall what/why now though. It seems odd to me that this particular group of humanoids is suddenly getting the interest, but then it probably is because of warcraft. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 01:02:45
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Warcraft orcs are nearly twice as massive and twice as strong as humans in that setting's original lore before they were nerfed for the WoW MMORPG. Even in the modern WoW lore orcs were genocidal, cruel, easily corrupted, and readily enslaved.
Warcraft orcs were as easily corrupted as humans and other races that came into contact with the fel magic (that in the pre-WoW lore was highly addictive and can change you into crazed power-hungry being). Even humans (such as Medivh) were corrupted and easily enslaved by demons once they used fel magic.
As for the genocidal part, yeah, they were. But that was not a trait unique to them. I mean, I should point to the concentration camps instituted by the humans of the Alliance of Lordaeron, and they weren't corrupted by fel magic when they made such thing! And I like that humans can be corruptible as well, not the super paragons of good traditional fantasy paints them to be.
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
D&D orcs are not those orcs. To make D&D orcs more like Warcraft orcs you will need to change their gods, their culture, and their history of interactions with all the other races, which is a lot in the FR.
I haven't seen that particular problem in my games, actually. Most of the orcs just left behind the "Gruumshism" and embraced new faiths and life philosophies, and since peoples aren't black and white, the other nations of my Realms gave them the benefit of the doubt (and since I play in the current year Realms, that change had a logical time to become normalized in my Realms). There are still some Gruumsh-worshipers out there, and these are the traditional D&D orcs, that even my Warcraft-ish orcs dislike. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 05 Sep 2021 01:30:22 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
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Kelcimer
Learned Scribe
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 09:07:01
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Hello SaMoCon!
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Then forget the western orcs and look at the orcs of eastern Faerun. You have Thesk: "Sembia provided funds to hire mercenaries, and Zhentil Keep contributed 1000 Orcs... The Orcs decided to settle in the country, becoming 'civilized,' and the people of Thesk grew to accept them." Thay: "Orcs and half-orcs were well-tolerated within the badlands, as they were commonly found as enforcers and soldiers within Thayan legions." Ostraland: "... the region was populated by tribes of orcs in the mountains as well as humans and dwarves in the town of Palischuk, plus a growing population of half-orcs emerging from the confluence of these groups." And particularly the Gray Orcs around the Moonsea and Hordeland regions. All of these are minority populations with no real political representation in governance of the encompassing civilization or nation. The orc surface kingdoms (Illusk, Vastar, Uruth Ukrypt) of the past have all been destroyed by outside forces, often in waves of attacks from multiple sources (elves, dragons, dwarves, humans, goblinoids, other savage humanoids, etc...).
That's interesting.
Hello deserk!
quote:
Originally posted by deserk Also it seems like, at least in terms of the way orcs have been depicted in the North and Western Heartlands, they always have almost beast-like genocidal bent to destroy and kill everyone and everything that isn't an orc. I would think it more interesting instead if they behaved like RW barbarian tribes of the past. They plunder and sack settlements for practical reasons like sustenance and prestige, but they certainly wouldn't mind negotiating with human and other realms to avoid bloodshed. And also it would be interesting if those times where an orc horde manages to subdue or conquer a great city like Sundabar for example, that instead of killing and enslaving literally everyone, and burning and razing the city to the ground, and essentially depriving it of everything of value, they would instead sometimes install themselves as the new rulers of the city. And then gradually you could have them starting to adopt and mix with the customs and faiths of the local populace just like the many barbarian tribes that invaded the Roman Empire, Persia or China, etc. And then you could have you would have an interesting political situation with discontent and resentment from the previous ruling class of humans that now have to suffer humiliation at being under "yoke of orcish barbarians", as well as from the orcish traditionalists that don't want to be corrupted by the treacherous ways of civilization.
I agree.
Hello sleyvas!
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas Honestly, if anything I'd think people would be more wondering why there aren't hobgoblin kingdoms/territories. Hobgoblins are what orcs were supposed to be in earlier editions... they're organized, understand command structures, understand battle tactics, etc... If I'm surprised by any group not having a land of their own, its the hobgoblins.
Hobgoblins have it hard for several reasons:
• It is not readily apparent what makes them really very different from a bunch of other more iconic humanoids.
• Orcs do a better job of embodying the chaos that exists beyond the walls of civilization, or at least beyond the walls of "your"civilization.
• Consequently, when a DM says "orc" every player at the table knows what they are talking about.
• Hobgoblin also has trouble in it's very root of its name. Its root name is goblin. It is not a think unto itself, but a subset or some sort of goblin. I know what a goblin is. What is a hob? In Avatar: The Last Air bender they have all kinds of crosses between different animals such as a Turtleduck. Because I know what is a turtle and what is a duck, I understand what they are when they are crossed. But I do not know what a hob is, so how am I to know what it is when a hob is crossed with a goblin? This is not intuitive.
• Another possible problem with the name is that it is three syllables instead of the one, but if we had a common understanding of what a hob is then I don't think it would matter.
quote:
From https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hobgoblin
What's the difference between a goblin and a hobgoblin?
While a goblin is often portrayed in folklore as a grotesque, evil, and malicious creature, a hobgoblin tends to traffic more in mischief than malice. (The character Puck in Shakespeare's A Midsummer Night's Dream might be regarded as a hobgoblin.) First appearing in English in the early 16th century, hobgoblin combined hob, a word meaning "sprite" or "elf" that derived from Hobbe, a nickname for Robert, with goblin a word ultimately from the Greek word kobalos, meaning "rogue." American writer Ralph Waldo Emerson famously applied the word's extended sense in his essay Self-Reliance: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."
Oh. The historical hobgoblin is more of a elfrogue or spirterogue. Huh. Neither fits the DnD hobgoblin.
And kobalos...seems to be a contender as the inspiration for kobald.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas if you were going to "shoehorn" in a hobgoblin kingdom in the realms, where would you do it? I'm thinking the mountains near Impiltur, up in Vaasa, and in the icy areas north of Narfell (some of which have been hinted as having hobgoblin tribes, like in the chronicles of Nindawen novels, but not necessarily in sourcebooks). I also wouldn't be surprised to find them in the hordelands.
I'm going to have to think on that one.
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2021 : 12:44:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Warcraft orcs were as easily corrupted as humans and other races...
I was going to respond to this, but this is entirely the wrong place for this. "Economic Models of the Realms?" It's time to start another scroll. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
746 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2021 : 02:30:19
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Orc lives matter!
Seriously though, it seemed pretty natural progression of the setting (and economically realistic) for orcs to have their own kingdom, and begin legit trade with the other races/kingdoms.
How many orc generations passed before one smart one realized that cycling through a horde and then collapsing back into the stone age was not bringing glory to Gruumsh?
I'm frankly surprised that Ed didn't have that baked in already.
After all Gruumsh WAS LAWFUL EVIL in previous editions!
Rule of the strong over the weak, that definitely points to a LE empire.
In the beginning all the gods met and drew lots for the parts of the world in which their representative races would dwell. The human gods drew the lot that allowed humans to dwell where they pleased, in any environment. The elven gods drew the green forests, the dwarven deities drew the high mountains, the gnomish gods the rocky, sunlit hills, and the halfling gods picked the lot that gave them the fields and meadows. Then the assembled gods turned to the orcish gods and laughed loud and long. "All the lots are taken!" they said tauntingly. "Where will your people dwell, One-Eye? There is no place left!"
There was silence upon the world then, as Gruumsh One-Eye lifted his great iron spear and stretched it over the world. The shaft blotted the sun over a great part of the lands as he spoke: "No! You Lie! You have rigged the drawing of the lots, hoping to cheat me and my followers. But One-Eye never sleeps. One-Eye sees all. There is a place for orcs to dwell…here!," he bellowed, and his spear pierced the mountains, opening a mighty rift and chasms. "And here!," and the spearhead split the hills and made them shake and covered them in dust. "And here!," and the black spear gouged the meadows and made them bare.
"There!" roared He-Who-Watches triumphantly, and his voice carried to the ends of the world. "There is where the orcs shall dwell! There they will survive, and multiply, and grow stronger, and a day will come when they cover the world, and they will slay all of your collective peoples! Orcs shall inherit the world you sought to cheat me of!"
That definitely sounds like a great Orc empire is the dream.
It's also hugely consequential to the economics of all the kingdoms in the western Realms.
Akin to recently the impact of China allowing it's citizens to own gold and silver.
Massive changes, but also the stability to the economy that maybe just maybe there won't be an orc horde this generation to wipe everything off the map yet again.
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Edited by - Cards77 on 20 Nov 2021 02:39:42 |
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thenightgaunt
Acolyte
USA
41 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2021 : 04:11:07
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
To THAT point that SaMoCon just brought up... it's interesting to come up with these types of discussions about "how does a place like Goldenfields work", because they can sometimes lead to unexpected ideas. For instance, one idea I came up with was that the sewers might use a lock/gate system to periodically open a path to a portal that would drain the sewers of waterdeep to an underground "treatment plant"/"storage area for fertilizer" beneath goldenfields (or, a rotating destination to numerous such storage areas as I think on it more). This opens up ideas for adventures though whenever magic fails and something happens to that portal. This portal is also a weakness for the city, and those who want to cause the city harm might intentionally take it out. This creates a unique story idea for adventurers that I can honestly say that none of my players would ever expect me to come up with... and at the same time it makes a lot more sense than the classic "some powerful mage setup a dungeon in his residence, and now that he's dead you want to raid it"
Oooooh, that's a nasty idea. I'd be less worried about the city and more worried about things washing into Goldenfields from the Waterdavian sewers. But I wouldn't put it underground. I'd have the portal on a wheeled platform so it could be moved around. You move it to drain to a large flat area of earth where the...solids can dry out and maybe a cleric who's been rather lax of late could walk through (in high boots) casting purify spells to eliminate diseases. Once "dryish" the material could be moved to fields in wheelbarrows. Then while that one is drying, wheel the portal to the next large, flat area.
Preferably this would be outside the walls of goldenfields with the portal guarded while outside the walls.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm just saying in a fantasy setting, "do this sneaky special ops thing against a neighbor, for king and country" isn't going to compare favorably to "find this lost tomb that holds more gold and magic than you can stuff in a portable hole."
Obviously, both missions will appeal to some, but some settings/systems support and encourage certain adventure-types over the others.
You could do your Mr. Johnson stuff in the Realms, but it'd be guild versus guild or merchant versus merchant -- and it wouldn't be the same as having Hans Brackhaus asking you to break into an offline datastore in Spinrad Global's HQ. Some adventures just work better in particular settings.
(I am now amusing myself, though, with the idea of a bunch of street samurai going on an epic quest to reclaim T'ai Shan Mountain from Lung!)
Oh I would adore an adventure like this. But how much of your assessment is an assumption based on product produced and not on current demand? I'm not saying you're wrong. But, most adventures are written by people trying to make something big and grand because they think that sells. But maybe that sells because those are the adventures that get published. D&D adventure writing is a rather odd market when you really think about it.
So as a hypothetical thought experiment here, yeah undermountain is great but there's a LOT more to Waterdeep then that. But as far as adventures go, there's a lot more published undermountain content then regular city adventure content. So from that, one might assume that all people want is undermountain and not regular adventures in the city.
But there's now a LOT of love for the 5e Waterdeep adventure "Waterdeep: Dragon Heist" and that's all city adventures. So if I had that assumption about no one wanting city adventures, now there's evidence that I was wrong. |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
746 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2022 : 16:32:28
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Orcs would be like the ISIS Caliphate of modern times. Mostly warring against outsiders and each other, but at times attempting to claim their lost dream and empire for orcs, able to deal with other powers as a peer on an economic and military level playing field.
Are they successful? largely no due to tribal issues and intertribal fighting. However, down the years they have tried in their own way to be organized like the "other races". |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2022 : 17:51:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
Orcs would be like the ISIS Caliphate of modern times.
You mean, increasingly obvious pawns of their supposed arch-enemy? (and what would this be - Evermeet? Elven Imperial Navy?)
That... could be fun.
quote:
Mostly warring against outsiders and each other, but at times attempting to claim their lost dream and empire for orcs
Good point: internal politics are always an important part of "the Great Game".
Some internal struggles are inevitable for any faction that isn't in coma and not at war (shooting or otherwise), and often even then.
Unfortunately, there are no mechanical models known to me that handle (active) sub-factions within an (active) group at all, never mind well. Not in Birthright. Not even in Kevin Crawford's games (SWN & WWN, Godbound, Red Tide - they all have some sort of polity/faction mechanics).
The closest to counting the existence of sub-factions are:
1. Parties in Galactic Civilizations and faction/agenda/mandate system in Stellaris. Those are not entities: they don't have states beyond "exists/absent" and enact no interactive strategy, only packaged switchable sets of optimization criteria (mostly just bonuses here, maluses there, and probabilities of some events changed; indirect in the case of Stellaris). So, no emergent rent-seeking food fights of ICBM lobby vs bomber lobby railgun lobby vs rocket lobby alliances within your military-industrial complex, etc.
2. NPC retainers and vassals in Crusader Kings. They have variable states, but as the infamous Roger a Muirebe bug demonstrates, their activity is picked randomly (and perhaps sometimes filtered) rather than follows any strategy.
quote:
However, down the years they have tried in their own way to be organized like the "other races".
That's a separate, large and lively can of worms. Even without the inevitable Jesting at that which none will name aloud part.
In Realmslore this happens.
Dambrath imported the Lolthite theocracy/matriarchy structure almost as is, but replaced oligarchical confederacy of hereditary monarchies structure with straightforward hereditary monarchy. And somewhat adapted to their very different conditions.
Unfortunately, mechanics for this facet of the world would be even harder to implement.
(edit: for clarity) |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 15 Feb 2022 05:30:37 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2022 : 18:48:29
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Unfortunately, there are no mechanical models known to me that handle (active) sub-factions within an (active) group at all, never mind well. Not in Birthright. Not even in Kevin Crawford's games (SWN & WWN, Godbound, Red Tide - they all have some sort of polity/faction mechanics).
Why would you need special rules for sub-factions? Just treat the sub-faction like a separate, allied faction with mostly similar goals. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2022 : 05:18:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why would you need special rules for sub-factions? Just treat the sub-faction like a separate, allied faction with mostly similar goals.
Because the sub-factions are not separate. Being dependent and overlapping, they need interactions with the super-entity and each other that separate entities don't have. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2022 : 05:31:14
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why would you need special rules for sub-factions? Just treat the sub-faction like a separate, allied faction with mostly similar goals.
Because the sub-factions are not separate. Being dependent and overlapping, they need interactions with the super-entity and each other that separate entities don't have.
I don't see how that's an issue. You act like both are one in areas of common interest, and treat them as separate for areas where interests are different.
It's like a married couple. They pay taxes together, live together, pool their resources... But they earn money as separate individuals, and each has their own interests. Jack and Diane are a single faction (the Little Ditty faction, perhaps), but Jack is a subfaction of that larger faction and so is Diane. Sure, they may not be working against each other, but there are going to be times that Jack is pursuing his own interests that Diane is not a part of, and vice versa. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 15 Feb 2022 05:32:35 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2022 : 15:08:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Because the sub-factions are not separate. Being dependent and overlapping, they need interactions with the super-entity and each other that separate entities don't have.
I don't see how that's an issue. You act like both are one in areas of common interest, and treat them as separate for areas where interests are different.
It's like a married couple. They pay taxes together, live together, pool their resources... But they earn money as separate individuals, and each has their own interests.
I don't see how this makes any sense.
So here's Thay with internal Militarist and Researcher factions. If Thay as a whole weakens, both weaken in absolute terms (possibly disproportionately). If Thay gets richer, both get richer (most likely disproportionately).
If one faction is weakened, this creates space for another to grow and gain the upper hand, or even third major faction to pop in, but also Thay as a whole weakens somewhat. If both were near-destroyed, Thay as a whole would weaken a lot.
How "sort of separate, but share expenses" approach would help to handle this? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2022 : 04:52:47
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| I don't see where the issue is, so I don't know how to explain it any further. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Economic Models of the Realms?
