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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Jul 2004 : 18:28:49
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Hi, Woolly. I’ll stop teasing you for at least one post (ah! the horrors of deprivation! sorry!  ) to add my nib or two to your comments on El’s D.
SPOILER WARNING, people . . .
ahem...
pose
pirouette
drift languidly into another pose
purr
sigh
moan
caress own elbow
toss head, let hair fall into a new swirl of chaos
twirl to let it greet chaos again
half-smile
pose again, letting some of this unnecessary clothing fall away
smile a little more broadly
. . . and that should be enough. Towel, Woolly? :}
...ahem.
I agree that it’s Ed’s best FR novel published to date. About your dislikes: I, too, wasn’t thrilled about the mind-ream, though it was well written. Too reminiscent of El in Hell, though there’s nothing to stop a writer repeating a technique (after all, how many swordfights does Drizzt get through? how many spell battles does Elminster engage in?). However, two comments here: 1. it’s Caladnei’s established procedure, because as an outsider who didn’t grow up in Cormyr, she doesn’t know all the nuances of family loyalties and personal feuds and grudges down the generations. I know this hasn’t been spelled out elsewhere in print, yet, but trust me: it’s in the Cormyr lore “bible.” 2. Ed’s editor dislikes flashbacks, and yet wanted something of Narnra’s back story to be spelled out in the novel. Moreover, doing the same thing for Caladnei was an agreed-upon-beforehand element for the book. The best, swiftest way to take care of both of these chores without slowing down the narrative was the mind-ream, in Ed’s opinion -- and having seen the result, I have to agree. Yes?
Azoun V was NOT kidnapped. There was a plot to do so, and the conspirators planned that their seizure of the planned heir to the throne would be lure enough to get Filfaeril, Alusair, and Caladnei all together in a meeting where the three could be destroyed swiftly and easily. However, Filfaeril and Alaphondar are old hands at dealing with these sorts of schemes, and so Alaphondar whisked Azoun V off to Storm, whilst certain senior war wizards magically made sure that certain conspirators thought the kidnapping had been pulled off according to plan -- so that they’d go ahead and reveal themselves in clear treason against the Crown, legally justifying immediate and violent action being taken against them.
“Ditto for El realizing Narnra was his daughter...”
Elminster doesn’t go around mind-reaming everyone he meets, but his initial confrontation with Narnra revealed to him that she had a strong natural aptitude for magic, due to her bloodlines. He doesn’t have to know that he’s personally involved to follow the rules Mystra set for him centuries ago: such a lass is not to be snuffed out, but rather to be aided but allowed full freedom.
Having done that, he continues with the matters he’s dealing with (yet another Cormyrean conspiracy -- typical of so many, and as you say, it worked for you “quite nicely”).
When Narnra follows him and he sees more of her, he thinks a bit more about her, and almost immediately has his suspicions. To reveal them to anyone -- including Narnra herself -- is pretty much a death sentence for Narnra (we’ve seen in Ed’s Shandril books how swiftly and brutally the vultures gather), so Elminster doesn’t do much more than ask her a few questions. Narnra’s way ahead of him when that occurs, and confirmation is so swift that the narrative moves on (after all, Elminster’s established character rules out one of those “Gasp! You? My DAUGHTER?” scenes so beloved of bad movies and television shows).
I agree wholeheartedly about Vangerdahast and Myrmeen coming out of left field. This is one place where editing cuts really hurt, because almost all of the verbal fighting (and then respect, then fondness, then flirtation) between them that Ed wrote vanished from the final text, to give them less ‘face time’ and keep the action moving more swiftly. Had I been in the editorial saddle on this book, I’d have handled things differently.
El's other kids: hah! Three too much for you? It was originally SEVEN, with a lot more implied, and several someones “a bit further back in Filfaeril's lineage” were included in the latter category. Yes, a pit pat -- but foreshadowed heavily and twice in the flashback tales in ELMINSTER IN HELL, so not unfair. One of the other original players also strongly disliked Filfaeril winding up as El’s kin, but when it was pointed out to him by another of us originals that it really changed nothing of her admittedly-too-sketchy character as sown to us all in published Realmslore thus far, and to we originals in home Realmsplay, and that all that had REALLY changed was how he the player regarded Filfaeril in light of this, he retreated to a “wait and see” attitude. I think what he really wants is more about the elders of Cormyr to see print, so we originals will be leaning on Ed to do that in his Knights trilogy. Again, there’s no guaranteeing what will get past the editors.
Now, on to your likes!
The Glarasteer-Narnra chase: I think Ed should do a lot more of this sort of action sequence, and Ed contributed Marsember map-key details to an adventure in the current DUNGEON magazine (which I haven’t seen yet, though I’ve heard they couldn’t squeeze more than about half of the tags he sent them onto it).
The Rightful Conspiracy: typical of dozens of small ‘vestpocket’ conspiracies. Apparently this is what most noble families in the Forest Kingdom DO, though most of them are wise enough to confine their intrigues to little illicit business cabals or playacting “dressing up in disguise and enjoying hanky-panky with each other’s spouses” secret societies, and leave the Obarskyrs alone. After all, everyone has their complaints about the ruling family, but the kingdom WORKS, and when you’re “on top” in the status quo, it’s less than sane to start shattering that status quo.
Lady Joysil: okay, Wooly, here’s where I have to disagree with your assumptions. Even if I didn’t know Ed personally and hadn’t discussed any part of this novel with him, there’s no way, restricting myself just to the published text of the book, that I would have come to the conclusion that Ed was trying to surprise anyone with the “revelation that she was Narnra's mom.” Ed’s gone far beyond that potboiler stuff, except for using revelations of identity as a humorous instrument when bad guys, overbearing authority figures such as guards, or arrogant fools overreach themselves, and then have that blink-oops moment right in front of the reader’s eyes. He’s interested in the relationships between people -- and I was reminded of this one more time when the closing scenes of the novel had to be shortened so much, so the “many daughters of Elminster” revelations ended up as a wham-bang moment. Ed complained like hell. (His original ending also had Narnra laughing helplessly, despite herself, at learning this -- which his editor vetoed completely, leaving her as still furious with Elminster but learning to keep it under control.)
I’m not trying to convince you or anyone here, just furnish interested scribes with some of the behind-the-scenes stuff I know, to help us all understand and enjoy even more. I think it’s a credit to Ed’s writing in this book that comments and disputes over the book have tended to center on such specific points, and have by and large avoided the “Elminster sux!” syndrome.
Which reminds me: if anyone reading this has specific questions for Ed about the novel, wander over to his Questions thread and join the growing queue there. Poor Ed is back from ALA and wading through Realmslore replies again.
Love to all,
THO
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2004 : 19:19:20
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hi, Woolly. I’ll stop teasing you for at least one post (ah! the horrors of deprivation! sorry! ) to add my nib or two to your comments on El’s D.
SPOILER WARNING, people . . .
ahem...
pose
pirouette
drift languidly into another pose
purr
sigh
moan
caress own elbow
toss head, let hair fall into a new swirl of chaos
twirl to let it greet chaos again
half-smile
pose again, letting some of this unnecessary clothing fall away
smile a little more broadly
. . . and that should be enough. Towel, Woolly? :}
...ahem.
One question, my dear Lady Hooded One: Which one of us is that towel for? 
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I agree that it’s Ed’s best FR novel published to date. About your dislikes: I, too, wasn’t thrilled about the mind-ream, though it was well written. Too reminiscent of El in Hell, though there’s nothing to stop a writer repeating a technique (after all, how many swordfights does Drizzt get through? how many spell battles does Elminster engage in?). However, two comments here: 1. it’s Caladnei’s established procedure, because as an outsider who didn’t grow up in Cormyr, she doesn’t know all the nuances of family loyalties and personal feuds and grudges down the generations. I know this hasn’t been spelled out elsewhere in print, yet, but trust me: it’s in the Cormyr lore “bible.” 2. Ed’s editor dislikes flashbacks, and yet wanted something of Narnra’s back story to be spelled out in the novel. Moreover, doing the same thing for Caladnei was an agreed-upon-beforehand element for the book. The best, swiftest way to take care of both of these chores without slowing down the narrative was the mind-ream, in Ed’s opinion -- and having seen the result, I have to agree. Yes?
Alright, I can see that... Was that explained a bit better in the pre-edited version?
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Azoun V was NOT kidnapped. There was a plot to do so, and the conspirators planned that their seizure of the planned heir to the throne would be lure enough to get Filfaeril, Alusair, and Caladnei all together in a meeting where the three could be destroyed swiftly and easily. However, Filfaeril and Alaphondar are old hands at dealing with these sorts of schemes, and so Alaphondar whisked Azoun V off to Storm, whilst certain senior war wizards magically made sure that certain conspirators thought the kidnapping had been pulled off according to plan -- so that they’d go ahead and reveal themselves in clear treason against the Crown, legally justifying immediate and violent action being taken against them.
Ah, okay. That, too, wasn't entirely clear, thus my confusion.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
“Ditto for El realizing Narnra was his daughter...”
Elminster doesn’t go around mind-reaming everyone he meets, but his initial confrontation with Narnra revealed to him that she had a strong natural aptitude for magic, due to her bloodlines. He doesn’t have to know that he’s personally involved to follow the rules Mystra set for him centuries ago: such a lass is not to be snuffed out, but rather to be aided but allowed full freedom.
Having done that, he continues with the matters he’s dealing with (yet another Cormyrean conspiracy -- typical of so many, and as you say, it worked for you “quite nicely”).
When Narnra follows him and he sees more of her, he thinks a bit more about her, and almost immediately has his suspicions. To reveal them to anyone -- including Narnra herself -- is pretty much a death sentence for Narnra (we’ve seen in Ed’s Shandril books how swiftly and brutally the vultures gather), so Elminster doesn’t do much more than ask her a few questions. Narnra’s way ahead of him when that occurs, and confirmation is so swift that the narrative moves on (after all, Elminster’s established character rules out one of those “Gasp! You? My DAUGHTER?” scenes so beloved of bad movies and television shows).
My only problem with it is that one scene he's rescuing her, and the next time we see them both, he knows she's his daughter. I should have liked to have seen El come to that conclusion, not have it off-screen. Was that something else that was cut?
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I agree wholeheartedly about Vangerdahast and Myrmeen coming out of left field. This is one place where editing cuts really hurt, because almost all of the verbal fighting (and then respect, then fondness, then flirtation) between them that Ed wrote vanished from the final text, to give them less ‘face time’ and keep the action moving more swiftly. Had I been in the editorial saddle on this book, I’d have handled things differently.
Dang... I wish that they'd left that part alone, then! Trimming that out did not do justice to the novel.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
El's other kids: hah! Three too much for you? It was originally SEVEN, with a lot more implied, and several someones “a bit further back in Filfaeril's lineage” were included in the latter category. Yes, a pit pat -- but foreshadowed heavily and twice in the flashback tales in ELMINSTER IN HELL, so not unfair. One of the other original players also strongly disliked Filfaeril winding up as El’s kin, but when it was pointed out to him by another of us originals that it really changed nothing of her admittedly-too-sketchy character as sown to us all in published Realmslore thus far, and to we originals in home Realmsplay, and that all that had REALLY changed was how he the player regarded Filfaeril in light of this, he retreated to a “wait and see” attitude. I think what he really wants is more about the elders of Cormyr to see print, so we originals will be leaning on Ed to do that in his Knights trilogy. Again, there’s no guaranteeing what will get past the editors.
Well, I have no problem with El having a whole passel of kids scattered around, even within Cormyr. I can easily picture El having fathered many kids, and perhaps even starting a noble family somewhere in Cormyr's past.
I just didn't care for the fact that out of the queen, the head of the War Wizards, another high-ranking War Wizard, and a Waterdhavian thief, there were three daughters of El. Two of the most powerful women in the kingdom and this misplaced thief all turned out to be Elminster's daughters. That was, to me, pushing it. I would have been able to accept it a lot more readily if, as I said, El's role in Filfaeril's lineage was a bit further back -- even if only a generation.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Now, on to your likes!
The Glarasteer-Narnra chase: I think Ed should do a lot more of this sort of action sequence, and Ed contributed Marsember map-key details to an adventure in the current DUNGEON magazine (which I haven’t seen yet, though I’ve heard they couldn’t squeeze more than about half of the tags he sent them onto it).
I'm going to pick up that issue of Dungeon, in no small part for the extra info about Marsember. 
I'd heard the info on the city was good, though I'd not heard about Ed's contribution to it. That makes that a more attractive purchase, though. 
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
The Rightful Conspiracy: typical of dozens of small ‘vestpocket’ conspiracies. Apparently this is what most noble families in the Forest Kingdom DO, though most of them are wise enough to confine their intrigues to little illicit business cabals or playacting “dressing up in disguise and enjoying hanky-panky with each other’s spouses” secret societies, and leave the Obarskyrs alone. After all, everyone has their complaints about the ruling family, but the kingdom WORKS, and when you’re “on top” in the status quo, it’s less than sane to start shattering that status quo.
Reading the Cormyr trilogy gave us a great view of just how conspiracy-happy Cormyrean nobles are. But I do like your mention of the playacting secret societies. There are some potential plots right there...
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Lady Joysil: okay, Wooly, here’s where I have to disagree with your assumptions. Even if I didn’t know Ed personally and hadn’t discussed any part of this novel with him, there’s no way, restricting myself just to the published text of the book, that I would have come to the conclusion that Ed was trying to surprise anyone with the “revelation that she was Narnra's mom.” Ed’s gone far beyond that potboiler stuff, except for using revelations of identity as a humorous instrument when bad guys, overbearing authority figures such as guards, or arrogant fools overreach themselves, and then have that blink-oops moment right in front of the reader’s eyes. He’s interested in the relationships between people -- and I was reminded of this one more time when the closing scenes of the novel had to be shortened so much, so the “many daughters of Elminster” revelations ended up as a wham-bang moment. Ed complained like hell. (His original ending also had Narnra laughing helplessly, despite herself, at learning this -- which his editor vetoed completely, leaving her as still furious with Elminster but learning to keep it under control.)
That ending would have worked better, I think.
Well, looking back, I suppose I was mistaken in thinking it was an attempt to be a surprise... I stand corrected on that point.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I’m not trying to convince you or anyone here, just furnish interested scribes with some of the behind-the-scenes stuff I know, to help us all understand and enjoy even more. I think it’s a credit to Ed’s writing in this book that comments and disputes over the book have tended to center on such specific points, and have by and large avoided the “Elminster sux!” syndrome.
Oh, I quite appreciate you adding your comments, O Lovely Hooded One. It does help to understand parts of the book better, and it renews my wish that just once Ed could publish a Realms novel without the editors cutting out vital bits.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Which reminds me: if anyone reading this has specific questions for Ed about the novel, wander over to his Questions thread and join the growing queue there. Poor Ed is back from ALA and wading through Realmslore replies again.
Love to all,
THO
Ah, wonderful! I believe I had a question or two in his queue...
And thank you for your time in replying to this thread, milady. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2004 : 19:24:22
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SPOILERS MAY FOLLOW
PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK...
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
. . . and that should be enough.
More entertaining then the last novel I read.
quote:
The best, swiftest way to take care of both of these chores without slowing down the narrative was the mind-ream, in Ed’s opinion -- and having seen the result, I have to agree. Yes?
Agreed on this end too. Learning more about the behind the scenes process helps a great deal. Thank you.
quote:
I agree wholeheartedly about Vangerdahast and Myrmeen coming out of left field. This is one place where editing cuts really hurt, because almost all of the verbal fighting (and then respect, then fondness, then flirtation) between them that Ed wrote vanished from the final text, to give them less ‘face time’ and keep the action moving more swiftly. Had I been in the editorial saddle on this book, I’d have handled things differently.
Sigh. Who was the editor for the novel? Am I right in recalling there were big editing cuts in Silverfall as well. What helped with me accepting Vangerdahast and Myrmeen was the belief, of my own creation, that the two were close as friends having served Cormyr through these years. Plus, both were at a time in their lives where they clearly knew the sunset was coming upon them both...at least as far as the lives they knew for so long in Cormyr were concerned.
quote:
I think what he really wants is more about the elders of Cormyr to see print, so we originals will be leaning on Ed to do that in his Knights trilogy. Again, there’s no guaranteeing what will get past the editors.
Which elders would this include?
quote:
The Glarasteer-Narnra chase: I think Ed should do a lot more of this sort of action sequence, and Ed contributed Marsember map-key details to an adventure in the current DUNGEON magazine (which I haven’t seen yet, though I’ve heard they couldn’t squeeze more than about half of the tags he sent them onto it).
Sad to hear about the cuts, but glad that something that many here will enjoy has been included thanks to EG in this new Dungeon issue.
quote:
I’m not trying to convince you or anyone here, just furnish interested scribes with some of the behind-the-scenes stuff I know, to help us all understand and enjoy even more.
I never got the impression you were trying to convince anyone. Rather, just as you stated, you were providing additional information as to why some choices were made.
quote:
Love to all,
THO
No hugs?
XXOO
SB |
Edited by - SiriusBlack on 05 Jul 2004 19:38:13 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2004 : 00:38:52
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Ah, gallant sirs, Wooly and Sirius both!
I presumed the towel might be needed to do away with some excess perspiration, dear Wool. Temperature rising, and all that. Tends to happen when I’m being . . . languid. For some odd reason.
But you can certainly use the towel for something else. I’ll just turn around and present the part of me that most welcomes its sting, shall I?
For the rest of you (now watching avidly, I presume), let’s just put down these moments of my gasping and reddening as more SPOILER SPACE for Ed’s novel, shall we?
Ooo, Wooly, you certainly know how to handle a towel!
gasp
We’ll have to use something a little harder next time, won’t we?
ahhh
yesss
I’m almost warm enough to give Sirius the first of his hugs
remiss of me not to offer them last time, I agree, so I suppose you’ll have to hand him the towel, too, when your arm starts to tire
let me just turn around so you can see to my frontal surfaces, hmm?
ohh
that should just about be enough spoiler space, as I’m sure no one would have read down this far, yes?
ahem
Now, as you -- ah, apply yourself to the use of that towel, let me reply...
The mind-ream being Caladnei’s established procedure was explained “a bit better” in the first draft (Laspeera revealed to an apprentice that it enables the Mage Royal to search for missing, delirious, and magically-affected agents and War Wizards because she [and of course Vangey before her] really KNOWS the mind they’re trying to reach, and can “offer” known memories, likes and dislikes, and so on, in an attempt to establish contact or ‘break open’ the mind.
Ed’s explanation was very brief, but of course it was easy to prune the apprentice and the scene altogether. There is of course the school of thought that holds ‘NEVER stop to explain.’ Have the characters behave like this is everyday stuff for them (akin to the way space travel was handled in the 2001 movie) and just keep going, hoping readers will pick up enough as they go along to just accept it and run with the narrative. And of course, there was nothing to tell you that “fleshing out Caladnei” was a design imperative for the book, because there’s no ‘in-the-Realms’ way to do that.
I agree with you that the Azoun kidnapping thing AND the moment of Elminster realizing Narnra was his daughter should have been made clearer. This was probably Ed’s fault more than the editing. He tends to get so much more interested in character relationships and speculations that he neglects the foreground battle-and-chase simpler plot level of his Realms books. You say, Wooly: “I should have liked to have seen El come to that conclusion, not have it off-screen.” and I fully agree. I e-said as much to Ed, last night, and he agreed, too, as follows:
Yes, guilty as charged. My fault, and something I’ll have to watch out for in the books I’m doing right now. It’s SO easy to slight the bits that interest me less. At the time, I was toying with the idea that Joysil still loved El but wanted to “pay him back” for not coming to her aid back when she was attacked in Waterdeep, and also with a scene in which El realizes that with ‘the Old Mystra’ gone, he’s never going to know now just why She ‘approved’ this pregnancy. Perhaps the new Mystra has gained that insight, drawing on memories others of the Chosen carry with their silver fire (which Mystra would ‘pick up,’ in a confused and partial way, by contact with each Chosen), but neither El (nor I) thought so. Hence the later scenes with Mystra revealing herself as something of the self-doubting novice.
The problem with Elminster is that ‘going inside his head’ in a novel would give us a result akin to Ulysses by Joyce -- definitely NOT something most Realms fans would want to read. After all, the guy knows darn near everything about what’s past, and all too much about what’s going on, behind the scenes all over Faerun, right now. A lot of folks weren’t too thrilled with El in Hell precisely because of the many ‘headspace’ scenes.
So saith Ed. We’re both heartily agreed on Vangerdahast and Myrmeen, though I concur with SiriusBlack that as longtime “fellow servants of Cormyr,” with Myrmeen coming to really understand and admire the load “meddling old Vangey” has been carrying, all these years, taking comfort in each other is quite likely. I know it mattered a lot to Ed to show us Vangey uncertain and yearning, for that moment (“Lass? Would you?”).
I also know that examining what it means to be a gruff old wizard as time runs out on you (viz: Vangey, Khelben, and Elminster) is a theme the WotC editors and Ed have discussed -- and intend to address, in various fictional venues.
Point taken on the daughters revelation being “pushing it,” and I’ll see if I can’t nudge Ed into revealing (probably in future Realms publications, rather than here) how El got genetically involved in Filfaeril’s family past. It seems apparent that the old Mystra was trying to ‘set up’ the bloodlines and rule of Cormyr to keep a strong cradle of magic (the War Wizards) flourishing.
Yes, the nobles of fair Cormyr do love their whispered conspiracies, don’t they? Most never go beyond this: a few nobles covertly working together to best a merchant who’s swindled or just out-dealt them, in business dealings, OR a few nobles getting together with a cleric who whispers to them of “special favour” from a particular god if they secretly participate in this “most holy and secret of prayers” he or she will lead (sometimes this is in earnest, usually it’s an attempt to get richer offerings that may or may not find their ways back into the coffers of the larger church, sometimes it’s a church-sanctioned way of increasing influence over the nobles who participate, and sometimes the cleric wants to befriend/marry/have sex with a noble, or a particular sort of noble, and sees this as the way to that goal, OR the hanky-panky I mentioned previously is a primary goal and not just some of the spice (other bits of spice: passwords, rituals, special masks or tokens or uniforms, gathering in ruins by night, seeing “ghosts” or special spell effects [illusions] that guide, bow down to, or favour members.
Yes, I agree that Ed’s own intended ending was better (and I’ve read ’em both). And I, too, fervently wish that “just once Ed could publish a Realms novel without the editors cutting out vital bits” (and yes, I say that as an editor!).
Now, poor Sirius has been waiting SO patiently, right here at hand (ahem), and so:
I’m VERY glad you found my little nothings entertaining. You’re very welcome, too, as I find getting just a glimpse of the “whys” of fiction-crafting decisions adds to the experience rather than hampering it.
I’m not going to reveal the editor, I’m afraid, but there were important (not large, but important) editing cuts in Silverfall (which had a different editor). The main problems with that book were Ed running out of word-room to wind things up properly (his fault, and his learning process), which stemmed from the root problem: the strict structure set by the editor, of “all seven, equal face time, one after another with baton handoff, and NO looking in/foreshadowing/glancing back on the other Sisters during a particular Sister’s segment.” Now, a glance at Silverfall will show you that Ed broke those rules, in a way that convinced the editor to let the result stand, but...that should have been a trilogy, at least. I’d have preferred eight full-length novels: one for each of the Seven, and then a wrapup ‘capper’ book. Ed proposed just this, and I have a sneaking suspicion that we have the Sembian books and the War of the Spider-Queen saga in part as a result of his urgings for a “great arc.”
As I said earlier, I saw Vangerdahast and Myrmeen’s coupling very much as you did (not much of a stretch for two old comrades-in-armour both facing the sunset of their lives).
They and Filfaeril and Bhereu and Thomdor and Laspeera and Glarasteer are among the “elders of Cormyr” my fellow original player was referring to (along with Alaphondar and his colleagues in the highest offices at Court). For that matter, we haven’t seen enough of Azoun IV ruling (as opposed to fighting, wenching, or chasing around the kingdom).
And now that the towel’s had enough and I’m glowing all over -- see? -- a big hug for you both.
Your friendly Hooded Lady
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2004 : 03:12:16
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| Milady Hooded One, after that spoiler space, I think I need another towel! |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2004 : 04:01:29
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Ah, gallant sirs, Wooly and Sirius both!
Thank you for the compliment fair lady.
quote:
Ooo, Wooly, you certainly know how to handle a towel!
gasp
We’ll have to use something a little harder next time, won’t we?
ahhh
yesss
And here I thought I was good at teasing.
quote:
I’m almost warm enough to give Sirius the first of his hugs
remiss of me not to offer them last time,
First of his hugs....I like your way of thinking.
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Hence the later scenes with Mystra revealing herself as something of the self-doubting novice.
One of my favorite moments in the novel was Mystra showing her doubts to two of her chosen.
quote:
I also know that examining what it means to be a gruff old wizard as time runs out on you (viz: Vangey, Khelben, and Elminster) is a theme the WotC editors and Ed have discussed -- and intend to address, in various fictional venues.
That will be interesting to see.
quote:
Point taken on the daughters revelation being “pushing it,” and I’ll see if I can’t nudge Ed into revealing (probably in future Realms publications, rather than here) how El got genetically involved in Filfaeril’s family past.
Nudge a bit extra for me. 
quote:
It seems apparent that the old Mystra was trying to ‘set up’ the bloodlines and rule of Cormyr to keep a strong cradle of magic (the War Wizards) flourishing.
That's a connection I hadn't thought of before but would make sense. Many eyes and hands seem to linger on this nation.
quote:
Yes, the nobles of fair Cormyr do love their whispered conspiracies, don’t they?
Oh yes, they do and I'd love to see an updated status on the various noble families of this nation.
quote:
I’m not going to reveal the editor, I’m afraid, but there were important (not large, but important) editing cuts in Silverfall (which had a different editor).
I'm sure I can guess with regards to one of the editors and do a little research to find the identity of the other. Alas, I have no such plans. Nor was I asking to assign blame. While I certainly would like a longer version of the scenes you discussed, I do not know what demands/mandates the editor has that may necessitate such cuts. Or to put it politely, but more bluntly, I still am not hearing all sides my dear lady. Nor, I realize, will I ever as I'm not part of the process. I am just grateful for the little bit you can add to my knowledge of how things come about in the FR fiction world.
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I’d have preferred eight full-length novels: one for each of the Seven, and then a wrapup ‘capper’ book. Ed proposed just this, and I have a sneaking suspicion that we have the Sembian books and the War of the Spider-Queen saga in part as a result of his urgings for a “great arc.”
Each is a well written series and I hope each sold well too.
quote:
They and Filfaeril and Bhereu and Thomdor and Laspeera and Glarasteer are among the “elders of Cormyr” my fellow original player was referring to (along with Alaphondar and his colleagues in the highest offices at Court). For that matter, we haven’t seen enough of Azoun IV ruling (as opposed to fighting, wenching, or chasing around the kingdom).
I'd love to see more of the cousins, Bhereu and Thomdor.
quote:
And now that the towel’s had enough and I’m glowing all over -- see? -- a big hug for you both.
Your friendly Hooded Lady
Always a pleasure and thank you once again
XXOO,
SB |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2004 : 22:27:45
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
A lot of folks weren’t too thrilled with El in Hell precisely because of the many ‘headspace’ scenes.
Eh, don't let that bother you, Mr. Greenwood. Those people simply didn't get it. |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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Panador
Acolyte
Austria
28 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2004 : 01:24:09
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I got a few questions concerning 'Elminster's Daughter':
1. How many Elminster's Daughters are out there, running wild in the Realms? Laspeera and Filfaeril are two pretty important ones, how many more are there? Is El plannning to take over the world using his children? :D Thinking about the fact that El is over a thousand years old, there gotta be a lot of children out there, sired by him.
2. Does he only have daughters? Is it some private joke of Mystra that she enables him to sire only daughters and no sons? That would be pretty sexistic, right?
3. Are there also... "children of El" of other races? You know, like Baal in the Baldur's Gate games. El has surely... "dealt" [:D}] with at least elf females, for example Galaeron's mother, Morgwai the Red - and that's only one occassion, during his long life he surely has also sired half-elfs and - who really knows what El finds... stimulating? - half-orcs and so on...
4. Is there any information available if Narnra is going to play an important role in future Elminster-novels?
5. Are there any novels or data or so on avaiable telling details of El's long life up to now? For example I know (like most probably everyone here) that he was Vangey's teacher but I don't know when this took place, when did Elminster decide he's old and wise and worthy enough to teach others? The novels in the Elminster series only deal with a relatively young Elminster, with a look of about 30 years (at least that's my guess by the descriptions on his apppearance) but are there also novels dealing with a few hundred years old El - exept El in Hell... hey, that sounds nice.
5. Hm, I know I wanted to ask something else but I just can't remember...  |
*Still thinking about a signature...* |
Edited by - Panador on 31 Jul 2004 01:31:14 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2004 : 02:49:12
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I can drop a hint regarding your fourth question, Panador: Ed's been asked to use Narnra again. Not in the forthcoming Knights books, of course, due to when she was born.
THO |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2004 : 03:14:20
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I can drop a hint regarding your fourth question, Panador: Ed's been asked to use Narnra again. Not in the forthcoming Knights books, of course, due to when she was born.
THO
Aw, dear Hooded One, what about his other questions? |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2004 : 15:38:35
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All right, a little more by way of replies to Panador, then:
1. You’re right, there must be a LOT of daughters out there. How many, I’ve no idea, beyond the fouXXX, no, siXX, no ahem MANY I know about. As for Ed taking over the world with them, how by all Holy Mystra’s Caresses would he ever manage to do that? If they’re all anything like him, what makes you think he or anyone else could control them? :}
2. We don’t know if he only sires daughters. We DO know that Mystra controls when a Chosen conceives or fathers, but we mortals just don’t know enough to advance a useful opinion.
3. Almost certainly, but again, we don’t know enough to comment overmuch, yet. Elves, perhaps even drow, yes, if what my characters have seen is anything to go by . . .
4. I did this. :}
5. The Elminster novels, of course, and a LOT of game data, from Ed’s Athalantar DRAGON article to references in most of his PAGES FROM THE MAGES articles, to…there are hundreds. Ed wants to write a lot more Elminster books - - but then, he wants to write a lot of Realms novels starring other Realms characters, too.
Hope that helps. :}
Your ever-hooded servant,
THO
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2004 : 16:40:35
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
1. You’re right, there must be a LOT of daughters out there. How many, I’ve no idea, beyond the fouXXX, no, siXX, no ahem MANY I know about. As for Ed taking over the world with them, how by all Holy Mystra’s Caresses would he ever manage to do that? If they’re all anything like him, what makes you think he or anyone else could control them? :}
Wait a minute....father's can't control daughters? Not even the slightest bit? 
quote:
2. We don’t know if he only sires daughters. We DO know that Mystra controls when a Chosen conceives or fathers
Am I the only one who sees that as one of the coolest forms of contraception ever?
quote:
3. Almost certainly, but again, we don’t know enough to comment overmuch, yet. Elves, perhaps even drow, yes, if what my characters have seen is anything to go by . . .
Elves....that's not surprising. Drow? hmmm, would one of the possible mothers be named Susprina Arkhenneld?
Thanks as always for the information THO.
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Elmonster
Acolyte
Russia
49 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 20:53:32
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| Just finished the Novel. Well i also think that Elminster's Daughter is the best Novel in Elminster Series. The chasing of Narna could be a little shorter, though it has some funny moments. But the ending is superb. |
I wished on the seven sisters
Bring me the wisdom of the age
All that's locked within the book of secrets
I longed for the knowledge of the sage...
Fires at Midnight, Blackmore's Night |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2005 : 18:24:34
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I have yet to read any of the books in the Elminster series, but I certainly intend to.
Whilst i'm aware of the various events (such as the Elminster in Hell tie in to the Return of the Archwizards), would there be any harm in reading these novels out of order? I've heard a lot of good stuff about Elminster's Daughter so would like to read that first, but if there is knowledge used from the previous novels then i'll happily start at the beginning. |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2005 : 19:06:33
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I would read the first 3 in order, but the two you mention jump ahead to the "current" timeline.
As long as you understand the point of El in Hell is to get rid of him for a few weeks, then there isn't a porblem with skipping Archwizards. :)
El's Daughter you'd be good to go on your own, though there's a lot of backstory to all the other characters. If you're familiar with Cormyr's status then you'll be ok. Otherwise, you might want to read the Cormyr trilogy. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2005 : 23:02:57
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
As long as you understand the point of El in Hell is to get rid of him for a few weeks, then there isn't a porblem with skipping Archwizards. :)
But what was the point of the Return of the Archwizards trilogy? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2005 : 01:40:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But what was the point of the Return of the Archwizards trilogy?
Well that's a different story entirely my Wooly Rupert.  |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Paec_djinn
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2005 : 00:08:32
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I haven't read the novel yet but reading thru the thread has made me wonder about Vandergahast.
*spoilers* (highlight text below)
Wasn't he killed at the end of The Siege?
*end spoilers*
If so how does he return or did I just forget what really happened? |
Edited by - Alaundo on 13 Feb 2005 11:04:54 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2005 : 02:39:11
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Um, worry about Vangey how, precisely?
If you check out the Questions from Ed Greenwood (2005) thread in the Chamber of Sages, you'll learn a lot about why anyone should have been worried about Vangerdahast (look for posts by Jerryd or Ed's replies to them, ferried through me). Ed tells me his latest (and lengthy) reply should be coming tomorrow.
If you're wondering about Vangey's personal fate, well, ELMINSTER'S DAUGHTER answers that but doesn't quite answer it, if you get my drift.
love,
THO |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2005 : 03:12:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Paec_djinn
I haven't read the novel yet but reading thru the thread has made me wonder about Vandergahast. *spoilers* Wasn't he killed at the end of The Siege? *end spoilers*
If so how does he return or did I just forget what really happened?
Nope... But I can't recall the exact sequence of events. I'm trying hard to forget that I ever read that trilogy. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Paec_djinn
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2005 : 08:36:22
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Okay, perhaps this was a mistake on my part. At the end of the Siege I possibly misintepreted that Vangey died when he gave no response to Galaeron's calls. This was a while back already and I've just rechecked the last pages of the Siege and it does indeed say that Vangey still stood tall--possibly I missed this due to me rushing thru the end.
Then I also missed a part in the Sorceror which said Vangey was addled. I'm not sure if I didn't know what addled meant at that time I read the book (aged 14) or I missed it but I seriously can't believe how I made a bad misinterpretion and how I was too lazy to recheck the book.
But thanks anyway, I'll be sure to pick up Elminster's Daughter when it releases over here in paperback (where I live it comes about 6 months late). I don't seem to understand Cormyr as much as some other cities in Faerun. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2005 : 15:22:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Paec_djinn
But thanks anyway, I'll be sure to pick up Elminster's Daughter when it releases over here in paperback (where I live it comes about 6 months late). I don't seem to understand Cormyr as much as some other cities in Faerun.
Just think of Cormyr as the perfect kingdom, and you'll have a good grasp on it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2005 : 03:35:51
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| I think your reply is meant to be a bit tongue-in-cheek, Wooly, but having given Cormyr some careful thought, I don't think it was all that perfect even when Azoun was in charge. One thing that sticks out in my mind from the Shadows of the Avatar books is the part where an envoy from Cormyr (from Azoun) asks the Lord of Shadowdale if he wants the Dale to become a protectorate of Cormyr. It sounded to me as if Azoun was being a little expansionistic--what made him think Lord Mourngyrm wasn't doing a perfectly fine job of protecting Shadowdale himself? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2005 : 05:56:23
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I was WONDERING when someone was going to remember that little detail Ed slipped into those packed novels.
From the 'home' Realms campaign, with Ed as DM, I can tell you that frequent "friendly visits" from Cormyrean envoys drove Mourngrym (and especially Shaerl) up the wall. Elminster occasionally cast spells into their minds to send Vangey little "back off, willya?" presents.
love,
THO |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2005 : 06:18:43
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I was WONDERING when someone was going to remember that little detail Ed slipped into those packed novels.
From the 'home' Realms campaign, with Ed as DM, I can tell you that frequent "friendly visits" from Cormyrean envoys drove Mourngrym (and especially Shaerl) up the wall. Elminster occasionally cast spells into their minds to send Vangey little "back off, willya?" presents.
love,
THO
As far as I'm concerned, Elminster was right to do that.
Little details like the aforementioned example (especially found in Ed's writing) would seem to support the idea that Cormyr--even before Azoun's death--wasn't a perfect, idealistic place that no one can find fault with, and it's rulers weren't entirely selfless...though I can definately see how Cormyr can be seen in such a light. I've fallen back on that mental shortcut myself, I must admit though, among others. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2005 : 15:49:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Little details like the aforementioned example (especially found in Ed's writing) would seem to support the idea that Cormyr--even before Azoun's death--wasn't a perfect, idealistic place that no one can find fault with, and it's rulers weren't entirely selfless...though I can definately see how Cormyr can be seen in such a light. I've fallen back on that mental shortcut myself, I must admit though, among others.
I don't see how Cormyr can be seen in such a light after any FR fan has read Cormyr: A Novel. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2005 : 22:50:52
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Well, neither do I. *shrug* Yet every so often I'll read about someone comparing Cormyr to Camelot (the "perfect kingdom in the Realms"), with Azoun as its King Arthur. Or subtle suggestions that Cormyr was fine until Azoun died, and Tilverton got destroyed, etc.
What I meant was that Cormyr looks good when you compare it to places like Zhentil Keep, or Thay, but "evil" realms (and I use the term loosely) really aren't *that* much different from the designated "good" realms, IMO. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2005 : 14:18:46
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I just finished the novel two days ago (yes, leave me alone, I was behind on my reading!)
This was perhaps the best of Ed's books that I have ever read. It was great. It still started off . . . well, not slow, but introducing a lot of characters you could care less about because so many were being introduced . . . and I wasn't thrilled with the causal chit chat between Mystra and El and the Simbul, but from about the halfway point down to the end it was awesome.
Oh, and with regards to Cormyr and its faults, think of it this way. Azoun was Lawful good, and no matter how nice and selfless, he was a king and raised to beleive that Cormyr was the greatest of all kingdoms, and he was her king. Of course he would naturally think that smaller regions, like Shadowdale would be better off under him, and would not likely think that the locals wouldn't like the change to their traditions, the garrisioning of Purple Dragons, paying out taxes to foreign lords, etc. as Azoun is quite sure that such "minor annoyances" are perfectly acceptable as a trade off. And of course, there is the idea that he wanted to snatch them up before either the Moonsea cities or Sembia cooped them into their kingdoms . . . |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 20:43:39
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| I agree about slow opening. Msybe we can get WotC to slip CD-ROMs into Ed's novels, to introduce ALL of the supporting chracters, and the setting, so we can plunge right into the action and intrigue. Then, just look 'em up if you need to know ... |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 20:58:26
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| I for one want the characters. FR is about it's characters and thier lives. Not the slaughter or the changes or the RSE's. :( |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Elminster's Daughter
