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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Jun 2020 : 19:26:12
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I'm sure at some point the term cis white guy will be offensive too (I've no idea what that means either). It is the intended meaning of the word that is the problem and not the word itself.
Oh thank god that I'm not the only one who saw that term for the first time a few months back and was like "what?". I literally don't know why its a special word, and to me it means "straight". It just seems to be another new made up word. Again, for those that don't get it, I'm just saying what's true to me.... never heard the word before, so in some ways a lot of you guys are speaking gibberish to me. It would be like me coming on right now and talking about subnet masks and VLSM in length.... I'd probably make a lot of your eyes glaze over, and you'd be like "what?".
All cis means is “not trans,” to give us a word for that. It’s short for cisgender, and it’s not “made up,” it’s Latin.
But given your prior stance of “I think the Realms should be queerphobic even though canon and Ed both disagree,” your stance on things feels pretty clear. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2020 : 19:28:51
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| (Also, to explain Rowling: she’s publicly thrown her lot in with a deeply transphobic crowd who think trans men are self-hating women and that trans women are men trying to infiltrate women’s spaces. It’s vile stuff.) |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2020 : 21:47:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Orcs have been a problem for people of color almost from the moment Tolkien put pen to paper. The physical descriptions and cultural descriptions used a lot of the same descriptors that white supremacists and other hatemongers were using for POC. Making them inherently evil, stupid, and savage in the game has left a bad impression on gamers of color for a long while, and finally the gaming companies are listening to their complaints.
Similarly, the fact that the Drow were painted as inherently evil elves and were the only elves described with dark skin tone (up until the last 5-10 years), left a similar prejudice on people of color. In the #BlackAF link I posted earlier, it was said that gamers of color would come to the table with an elf that matched their skin tone and white gamers would immediately assume they were drow (and evil).
On the elf thing, that's odd to me. Wild elves can have skin tones that are like a dark brown though, which I would also equate with the same as a colored person, and their hair would match. Wood elves can also have a coppery colored skin and brown hair. That's all been around for half my life now, and I'm getting to be an old fart now. Actually, I'd equate those skin tones more so than the ebony black skin that the drow were originally described and drawn as with shockingly white hair and red/violet eyes. Still, that makes at least some sense, especially with later artists skewing things, but I will say that there are other options for a player to play for a character that looks like them (and live on the surface), and even within those options there have been examples of dark elves that aren't evil. If someone therefore feels hurt because they chose to play a powered up race that is known for evil, I don't see it as any different than if a pale white guy chooses to play a shaved head Mulan with fire symbols on his head and being assumed to be "an evil Thayan". If someone chose that path, I'd check with them and see if that's the personae/feel they're wanting to evoke (i.e. are they WANTING that shock value on their character and that's why they chose it). If not, I'd expect some story to go along with why they're choosing a race that has a lot of powers to it that other races don't have without expecting the negatives that would come with those advantages (maybe its not as big now, but in earlier editions, drow spell resistance was an amazing ability, and people wanted to be a drow just for the power), because if its just so that they can have someone that looks like them they have options. Still, if they plan on introducing some dark elf communities that aren't evil, totally fine with that as long as power balance is maintained, and I'd thought they started that back in 3e.
On the orc thing, the drawings of orcs have never looked anything like colored folk that I know of in the history of D&D (the original ones were like swamp green with pig snouts), so that one I have a much harder time buying. If someone came to my games expecting me to view orcs differently, I can honestly say I'd be surprised, but I'd also point out concepts like the Odonti and the orcs over in Thesk. I'd probably have to talk with them more to exactly understand what the problem is though.
However, I'm guessing based on some of this that the worries are about the generalized descriptions in Mord's Tome of Foes and Volo's Guide to Monsters? I say that because these issues were all getting addressed in prior versions of the game. Honestly, those book felt like a money grab to me by them, and while there was some updated pieces that I felt could be interesting, half the book was rehashed drivel that I've seen so many times over that I'm just tired of it. Its a waste of paper to tell me yet again what Lolth and her priests are like. Now, going into some other deity like Zinzerena, Malyk, etc... to give some other options, yeah, that can open storylines. Still, I get that I'm a guy that's been playing going around 40 years, and there's a lot of new folks, so for them these rehashed products get written that give some generalized views that most orcs are the bad guys (as are lizardmen, goblins, ogres, hags, certain giants, etc...). While my eyes may gloss over at yet another time telling me that the wychlaran are masked, mysterious witches who expect unflinching loyalty and yet the majority aren't evil, I accept that there are folks who similarly don't know that yet. I guess what I'm getting at is that circumstances are going to vary by the player, the level of general knowledge in the game, and the play style of a DM and his players. While I get the Vistani thing now, I just find these arguments less credible. I'd still take a player's feelings into the equation and try to figure something out, but having to have something already figured out without explained requirements doesn't work. It would be like someone telling me that I shouldn't automatically assume that the mind flayer I see isn't like most other mind flayers or to not assume that most gnolls aren't carnivores or even to test whether every wild bear I see is a werebear before getting defensive. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2020 : 22:12:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Orcs have been a problem for people of color almost from the moment Tolkien put pen to paper. The physical descriptions and cultural descriptions used a lot of the same descriptors that white supremacists and other hatemongers were using for POC. Making them inherently evil, stupid, and savage in the game has left a bad impression on gamers of color for a long while, and finally the gaming companies are listening to their complaints.
Do you have documentation for this? Because this seems more like coincidence than actual intent on Tolkein's part. Also, I don't see how the leap is made in DnD either. The entire game is based around the fighting of good vs evil and law vs chaos. To try and paint this as some commentary on real life groups is pretty dishonest. It's more a pattern that the human mind is conjuring up IMO.
As for the evil elves bit. In FR there is a specific reason that the Drow are evil. They were banished by the elven gods. There's a whole string of narratives that shows this isn't inherent to their race but is due to the work of evil forces that keep them in such a state.
But Drow aren't the only evil elves. Gold elves have been painted as being just as evil and racist in the setting as the Drow. Again, I feel that this is the human mind drawing patterns from nothing. We're very good at that BTW. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2020 : 22:17:33
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The issue isn't just the appearance -- it's the language used. As I said earlier, with drow, you've got an race that is described as being depraved and incredibly evil -- and they all have black skin. It's easy to see that as racist allegory.
And as Ashe explained about orcs, it's the language -- some of the dehumanizing language used to describe them and set them apart as indelibly and undeniably inferior to humans is the same language that has been used by racists to refer to people of African descent. If you've had hateful terms directed at you all your life, you're not going to be enthusiastic when seeing those same terms thrown about in the same way in your entertainment.
It doesn't matter if the original intent was good or not, and it doesn't matter if it's a false perception - what matters is that people are being made to feel like they can't even turn to a game to get away from racism and prejudice. It doesn't take anything away from the game to step back from the "inherently evil" thing, and it can help bring more people to our tables. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Jun 2020 22:23:30 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2020 : 22:27:36
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| Also, sleyvas, you can drop the “colored people” thing. It’s not the 50s anymore. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2020 : 23:07:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The issue isn't just the appearance -- it's the language used. As I said earlier, with drow, you've got an race that is described as being depraved and incredibly evil -- and they all have black skin. It's easy to see that as racist allegory.
And as Ashe explained about orcs, it's the language -- some of the dehumanizing language used to describe them and set them apart as indelibly and undeniably inferior to humans is the same language that has been used by racists to refer to people of African descent. If you've had hateful terms directed at you all your life, you're not going to be enthusiastic when seeing those same terms thrown about in the same way in your entertainment.
It doesn't matter if the original intent was good or not, and it doesn't matter if it's a false perception - what matters is that people are being made to feel like they can't even turn to a game to get away from racism and prejudice. It doesn't take anything away from the game to step back from the "inherently evil" thing, and it can help bring more people to our tables.
I guess I just don't agree. My experiences have been different with the game when I've played with my group of friends (which is a diverse bunch). Trust me, DnD is far less tame than some board games we've played. One of our favorite games is Endeavor which has an actual slavery mechanic in it. We don't see it as a personal attack, but part of a mechanic from a game that is set in a specific time period where slavery existed. It's talked about openly and we generally joke about it....especially when our Dominican friend chooses the slavery option....oh we give him shit for that.
Censorship however won't make the problem go away. I feel that it's the worst kind of reaction to a diversity issue that one could have. It only taboo-izes it and thus makes it more attractive to those with racist tendencies.
As I said in another comment, I still feel the way to approach this is to deal with it at the source by hiring a more diverse staff and then confront these perceptions head on narratively. What better role-playing fantasy than to have players successfully deal with racist and discriminatory antagonists? |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 00:10:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Orcs have been a problem for people of color almost from the moment Tolkien put pen to paper. The physical descriptions and cultural descriptions used a lot of the same descriptors that white supremacists and other hatemongers were using for POC. Making them inherently evil, stupid, and savage in the game has left a bad impression on gamers of color for a long while, and finally the gaming companies are listening to their complaints.
Do you have documentation for this? Because this seems more like coincidence than actual intent on Tolkein's part. Also, I don't see how the leap is made in DnD either. The entire game is based around the fighting of good vs evil and law vs chaos. To try and paint this as some commentary on real life groups is pretty dishonest. It's more a pattern that the human mind is conjuring up IMO.
As for the evil elves bit. In FR there is a specific reason that the Drow are evil. They were banished by the elven gods. There's a whole string of narratives that shows this isn't inherent to their race but is due to the work of evil forces that keep them in such a state.
But Drow aren't the only evil elves. Gold elves have been painted as being just as evil and racist in the setting as the Drow. Again, I feel that this is the human mind drawing patterns from nothing. We're very good at that BTW.
Here's the rabbit hole. Racism in Tolkien's Works
It's actually been a pretty big debate among scholars of his work for (looks at watch) ... decades now.
Now, Tolkien himself was very outspoken against racism and fascism, however, he was a product of his times and culture, and some things can be read differently today than they were when first written. Much like it's hard to get through Huck Finn now. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 00:13:08
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Also, sleyvas, you can drop the “colored people” thing. It’s not the 50s anymore.
Beat me to the punch. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 00:38:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Here's the rabbit hole. Racism in Tolkien's Works
It's actually been a pretty big debate among scholars of his work for (looks at watch) ... decades now.
Now, Tolkien himself was very outspoken against racism and fascism, however, he was a product of his times and culture, and some things can be read differently today than they were when first written. Much like it's hard to get through Huck Finn now.
Thanks! The parts I've read so far are very interesting. I really appreciate the context the analysis is put into as well. |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 00:45:55
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I honestly wonder if there are people who actually imagined black human skin tone when they were reading on Drow. It never crossed my mind to think that Drow are similar to black/darker skin colored humans in terms of looks. They just look different, "more alien" and too non-humany exotic to be compared to a human look. At least that was for me.
Even if people thought at the time that Drow were similar to black people, I don't really see how it can be considered an insult. Drow are smart, sophisticated and pretty big villains, not like dumb, cannonfodder orcs. If someone feel alianted to play D&D because there is a dark skinned Elf race that is generally evil, I would say maybe they should actually look for other hobbies since this is such a trivial thing to get hang up on. WoTC should start writing some good sourcebooks and sandbox adventures instead of writing Magic settings. That is my only complaint for the company. I don't care if they say there are gay orcs or trans drow now. Sexuality of NPCs in a RPG book has literally zero impact on my personal life and my approach to the hobby. I just want quality lore. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 01:12:34
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quote:
Originally posted by farinal
I honestly wonder if there are people who actually imagined black human skin tone when they were reading on Drow. It never crossed my mind to think that Drow are similar to black/darker skin colored humans in terms of looks. They just look different, "more alien" and too non-humany exotic to be compared to a human look. At least that was for me.
Even if people thought at the time that Drow were similar to black people, I don't really see how it can be considered an insult. Drow are smart, sophisticated and pretty big villains, not like dumb, cannonfodder orcs. If someone feel alianted to play D&D because there is a dark skinned Elf race that is generally evil, I would say maybe they should actually look for other hobbies since this is such a trivial thing to get hang up on. WoTC should start writing some good sourcebooks and sandbox adventures instead of writing Magic settings. That is my only complaint for the company. I don't care if they say there are gay orcs or trans drow now. Sexuality of NPCs in a RPG book has literally zero impact on my personal life and my approach to the hobby. I just want quality lore.
It's not a trivial thing if you have lived your entire life being attacked for the color of your skin, and then you sit down to play a game and find out that the good guys are white and the bad guys are dark. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 01:15:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The issue isn't just the appearance -- it's the language used. As I said earlier, with drow, you've got an race that is described as being depraved and incredibly evil -- and they all have black skin. It's easy to see that as racist allegory.
And as Ashe explained about orcs, it's the language -- some of the dehumanizing language used to describe them and set them apart as indelibly and undeniably inferior to humans is the same language that has been used by racists to refer to people of African descent. If you've had hateful terms directed at you all your life, you're not going to be enthusiastic when seeing those same terms thrown about in the same way in your entertainment.
It doesn't matter if the original intent was good or not, and it doesn't matter if it's a false perception - what matters is that people are being made to feel like they can't even turn to a game to get away from racism and prejudice. It doesn't take anything away from the game to step back from the "inherently evil" thing, and it can help bring more people to our tables.
I guess I just don't agree. My experiences have been different with the game when I've played with my group of friends (which is a diverse bunch). Trust me, DnD is far less tame than some board games we've played. One of our favorite games is Endeavor which has an actual slavery mechanic in it. We don't see it as a personal attack, but part of a mechanic from a game that is set in a specific time period where slavery existed. It's talked about openly and we generally joke about it....especially when our Dominican friend chooses the slavery option....oh we give him shit for that.
Censorship however won't make the problem go away. I feel that it's the worst kind of reaction to a diversity issue that one could have. It only taboo-izes it and thus makes it more attractive to those with racist tendencies.
As I said in another comment, I still feel the way to approach this is to deal with it at the source by hiring a more diverse staff and then confront these perceptions head on narratively. What better role-playing fantasy than to have players successfully deal with racist and discriminatory antagonists?
It's not censorship to stop perpetuating stereotypes -- unless you're really invested in maintaining those stereotypes.
Getting rid of the stereotypes does not make it more attractive for people that like them, either. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 01:32:00
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Well with Orcs and Tolkien, the controversial bit's are him describing Orcs in a letter as "squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types", and described them as "swart" or "sallow", and one in Moria as outright "black-skinned", and others more ambiguously as "black" although it's ambiguous if it means skin color in those instances.
The thing is though, Tolkien himself kinda realized his characterization of orcs as disturbing, especially as an inherently evil/worse race (which to him clashed with his Christian values), so he tried to explain their evil, with his writing more or less agreeing orcs are a tormented race (as well going through several other versions to explain this, one even suggesting orcs are more biological automata, before discarding them), influenced/corrupted and ultimately controlled (directly and indirectly) by evil/fallen Ainu (ie Morgoth, Sauron, Durin's Bane etc.), even within the Lord of the Rings, and it's basically stated if Sauron or Morgoth won, all mortals would eventually end up like orcs.
Hobbit even suggested Orcs (or there named Goblins) aren't exactly unintelligent - they were capable smiths and craftsmen. Indeed, Hobbit stats Goblins create complex machinery.
I know it's a bit of overused explanation, but a lot of stuff Tolkien wrote, are more products of his time, rather than actively racist. Indeed, he actually wrote to German publisher (who asked if was Aryan), well this letter:
quote:
Dear Sirs,
Thank you for your letter. I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject — which should be sufficient. I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.
Your enquiry is doubtless made in order to comply with the laws of your own country, but that this should be held to apply to the subjects of another state would be improper, even if it had (as it has not) any bearing whatsoever on the merits of my work or its sustainability for publication, of which you appear to have satisfied yourselves without reference to my Abstammung.
I trust you will find this reply satisfactory, and
remain yours faithfully,
J. R. R. Tolkien
Basically deconstructing Nazi views on the Aryan race (showing Tolkien opposed Aryanism), and in general was opposed to Anti-Semitism (both common in his time) and as a result, Nazis.
Although to be fair, it is notable Tolkien himself overtime had some issues with making orcs/goblins an "evil race", or such an idea in the first place. |
Edited by - Baltas on 26 Jun 2020 01:38:58 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 02:50:48
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| Tolkien’s dwarves being explicitly Jewish in inspiration and then being defined by greed by him and especially later fantasy others has forever irked me. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 02:58:48
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I can understand your doubts about it, but (at least as I read it) Tolkien's Dwarves are far from solely characterized by greed.
Numenoreans, also have traits of Jews (which Tolkien acknowledged), with Adűnaic being somewhat Semitic.
Neither are meant though be 100% analogues though. |
Edited by - Baltas on 26 Jun 2020 03:39:53 |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 03:22:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's not censorship to stop perpetuating stereotypes -- unless you're really invested in maintaining those stereotypes.
Getting rid of the stereotypes does not make it more attractive for people that like them, either.
It's not the perpetuation of stereotypes that I'm talking about. I agree that stuff like the Roma material is wrong and needs to be changed. But changing the nature of orcs or drow or their like in order not to offend anyone is a bit much IMO. They are designed to be antagonists in DnD. How can an antagonist be agreeable? But I dunno, maybe I'm looking at this all wrong. Maybe there are ways to do this better that I don't know about. I seriously hope there is, but like I said before, I do not trust WoTC with this. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 03:49:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's not censorship to stop perpetuating stereotypes -- unless you're really invested in maintaining those stereotypes.
Getting rid of the stereotypes does not make it more attractive for people that like them, either.
It's not the perpetuation of stereotypes that I'm talking about. I agree that stuff like the Roma material is wrong and needs to be changed. But changing the nature of orcs or drow or their like in order not to offend anyone is a bit much IMO. They are designed to be antagonists in DnD. How can an antagonist be agreeable? But I dunno, maybe I'm looking at this all wrong. Maybe there are ways to do this better that I don't know about. I seriously hope there is, but like I said before, I do not trust WoTC with this.
No one is going to stop you from playing that way. But I believe you (and others) are complaining that by making the races no longer inherently evil means you'll never see an evil orc or drow again. I don't get why anyone would think that. I mean, in all of the campaigns and games you've played, have the bad guys always been orcs and drow? |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 04:26:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's not censorship to stop perpetuating stereotypes -- unless you're really invested in maintaining those stereotypes.
Getting rid of the stereotypes does not make it more attractive for people that like them, either.
It's not the perpetuation of stereotypes that I'm talking about. I agree that stuff like the Roma material is wrong and needs to be changed. But changing the nature of orcs or drow or their like in order not to offend anyone is a bit much IMO. They are designed to be antagonists in DnD. How can an antagonist be agreeable? But I dunno, maybe I'm looking at this all wrong. Maybe there are ways to do this better that I don't know about. I seriously hope there is, but like I said before, I do not trust WoTC with this.
They're not saying orcs and drow will no longer be antagonists. They're saying orcs and drow will no longer be inherently evil. The majority will still be evil, undoubtedly -- but they'll choose that path, rather than having it be the only one available.
In other words, they're making one-dimensional bad guys have a little more depth. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 05:07:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They're not saying orcs and drow will no longer be antagonists. They're saying orcs and drow will no longer be inherently evil. The majority will still be evil, undoubtedly -- but they'll choose that path, rather than having it be the only one available.
In other words, they're making one-dimensional bad guys have a little more depth.
So I guess Wizards will make a big deal out of this and type in big letters "all races can be anything as D&D is diverse!" and maybe type that on every page of the book? And they can be really, really, really clear that not "all" orcs and drow are bad, only SOME of them are and each race is full of all sorts of people of all types.
I guess that will make everyone happy? To read that Wizards "officially" said orcs and drow can be anything.
I guess I'm one of the few people that never got hung up on a couple words written in a book. Even when the book said "all orcs and drow must be evil at all times" I understood they were ONLY talking about the orcs that were the foes of the PC, not like the whole race. D&D has always been a combat adventure game. So I never expected 25,000 word books explaining all the tiny bits of each race.
And FR in particular has gone a log way, for several decades, to point out not "all" orcs and drow are "always bad". |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 06:04:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They're not saying orcs and drow will no longer be antagonists. They're saying orcs and drow will no longer be inherently evil. The majority will still be evil, undoubtedly -- but they'll choose that path, rather than having it be the only one available.
In other words, they're making one-dimensional bad guys have a little more depth.
You know what though? I've never really seen orcs as inherently evil. I've seen them as inherently warlike....which is quite different. Same with the Drow. They're evil because their culture is evil, not their biology. I guess I just assumed that FR was already there, |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 06:04:30
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quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
So I never expected 25,000 word books explaining all the tiny bits of each race.
You don't need to go through 25,000 word to get a gist of what Drow were depicted as.
1e: "The “Black Elves,” or drow, are only legend. They purportedly dwell deep beneath the surface in a strange subterranean realm. The drow are said to be as dark as faeries are bright and as evil as the latter are good. Tales picture them as weak fighters but strong magic-users.".
So unless your DM is fine going against status quo, they're never seen or stated of being good or even the possibility of being anything other than evil.
2e: Alignment - Chaotic Evil. "These dreaded, evil creatures where once part of the community of elves that still roam the world's forests. Now these dark elves inhabit dark caves and winding tunnels under the earth, where they make dire plans against the races that still walk beneath the sun, on the surface of the green earth."
Further enmeshing Drow as always-evil, again no where that there's a possibility that they're not all inherently evil and pushing the concept that they're after all the surface people too.
3e: Alignment - Usually Neutral Evil. "Also known as dark elves, drow are a depraved and evil subterranean offshoot."
This is the best we've had as far as options for playable non-evil Drow as one could argue "usually" isn't always and this, it's possible that there can be non-evil Drow. It's also pushed that they're just as evil and despicable as they were in 1e and 2e.
4e: Alignment - Evil. "ARROGANT AND PERVERSE, the drow conspire to subjugate all who don’t revere their Spider Queen, the god Lolth. Like their kin, the elves, drow were once creatures of the Feywild. However, they followed Lolth down a sinister path and now reside in the Underdark of the world. There they gather in settlements of macabre splendor, lit by luminescent flora and magic, and crawling with spiders."
Also, "Although some charismatic drow have attempted to overcome their race’s tendencies, in the end, drow alliances fall apart as they are beset by a series of assassinations and betrayals."
So not overly pleasant and still decidedly depicted as evil to their core. Still, I will say that 4E did a LOT in terms of mechanics, rules, options, etc in making Drow a far more common and accepted Player Character race than past Editions.
5e: Alignment - Neutral Evil. "Descended from an earlier subrace of dark-skinned elves, the drow were banished from the surface world for following the goddess Lolth down the path to evil and corruption. N ow they have built their own civilization in the depths of the Underdark, patterned after the Way of Lolth. - Check with your Dungeon Master to see if you can play a drow character."
Wow, the race finally reached the Players Handbook but with caveats and a blurb about how only the like of someone like Drizzt throws off the mantle of evil and is exceptional in every way. You also need permission too.
Yeah It's pretty prevalent in almost every single Edition that Drow are almost always explicably evil and that to Encounter a non-evil one was super rare - a narrative pushed by the industry and upheld significantly by the community. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 06:35:40
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The drow were about 2 pages in AD&D monster manuals, another page in Unearthed Arcana, and perhaps a handful of paragraphs scattered across various modules. Already plenty of information - enough to inspire Drizzt through his first trilogies - the subsequent books and boxes and splats are not at all necessary unless you just happen to really, really want to know everything there is to know about the drow.
Funny that drow skin colour would even be a consideration in early (A)D&D. The artists had a hard time imagining drow colourations, the printers had a hard time working with certain inks ... I've seen drow skin tones randing from blue to peachy pink to vibrant purple to sickly green to burnt grey to charcoal black, obviousy indicating different quality of artwork and not indicating different qualities of drow "evil". |
[/Ayrik] |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 07:24:23
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| I also do want to throw out some fun, obscure 4e drow lore; there was an entire article in Dragon during the era about different ways to play a non-Evil drow, and established a group of neutral and Good drow merchants running a consortium known as the Horizon Syndicate, who hoped to establish profitable, peaceful interactions between the surface and Underdark. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 08:23:40
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| What about Jaraxle and Bregan D'aerthe? They're more mobsters than evil caricature. I honestly think the narrative form of the Realms is being completely ignored in the debate outside of this forum. People are only reacting to the limited scope of the game material, which lets be honest, is seriously lacking in contrast to the fiction. No character in a Salvatore novel is a pure DnD stereotype. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 08:53:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
What about Jaraxle and Bregan D'aerthe? They're more mobsters than evil caricature. I honestly think the narrative form of the Realms is being completely ignored in the debate outside of this forum. People are only reacting to the limited scope of the game material, which lets be honest, is seriously lacking in contrast to the fiction. No character in a Salvatore novel is a pure DnD stereotype.
I mean, Jarlaxle is still Evil in the statblocks I've seen, and "organized crime syndicate" isn't really that much better than "theocratic slaver nightmare society" in terms of not being bad guys. If we're talking about trying to get a dark-skinned race away from always being terrible, that's not how to do it. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 13:13:54
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Also, sleyvas, you can drop the “colored people” thing. It’s not the 50s anymore.
I love how I'm singled out for this when I specifically stated I am trying to pick what I think is the most unambiguous term to use. I can't be held accountable if the term that people want to be referred to as changes every few years, and even at that, I see old terms still in use and new terms denigrated. I'm done with this thread. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 14:40:02
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Also, sleyvas, you can drop the “colored people” thing. It’s not the 50s anymore.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Also, sleyvas, you can drop the “colored people” thing. It’s not the 50s anymore.
I love how I'm singled out for this when I specifically stated I am trying to pick what I think is the most unambiguous term to use. I can't be held accountable if the term that people want to be referred to as changes every few years, and even at that, I see old terms still in use and new terms denigrated. I'm done with this thread.
keftiu, I agree with Slevyas it's a bit unfair to single him out about this, especially that I think he probably confused "colored people" with "people of color". |
Edited by - Baltas on 26 Jun 2020 14:42:43 |
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Official: Diversity and Dungeons & Dragons
Topic Locked
