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Originally posted by sfdragon

Patton, Sherman, ALaxander the Great shouldnt be on a vile list either. They are there because I'm sure each of them has some questionable doings while they served their countries.

Sherman burned Georgia to the ground on his march through it. One city he ordered the rest he did not his men did that themselves. When you need to bring a war to an end and demoralize your enemy to aid its end well... He is demonized for stuff that he and his men did not do too so...
PAtton punched a guy in the hospital and was supposed to be really hard to work with.

Alexander... well, I'm not big with ancient Greece , Egypt, and east of Egypt history. Wikipedia doesn't show a whole lot so...

That said,
I hold
Patton, Sherman, Rommel, and Manfred von Richthofen in high regard, not for who they served or their political outlook , only for their accomplishments.

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Originally posted by sfdragon

Oh and... with me, it is more how and what you are changing as I said I agree with hiring the Romani to throw out any negative traits that resemble their culture. I do agree with some other things that should be changed, but what worries me is when you change something that takes away a villain.
Could you imagine Bane as LN instead of LE?
or turning a known npc into a black npc when npc has always been white

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Originally posted by sfdragon

oh and NO I'M NOT HUNG UP ON THAT!
I fail to see how they were written up would be considered hateful or racist or derogative
to anyone.

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Originally posted by Caolin

Late to this discussion, but here is my two cents. I feel this is pure pandering from WoTC. For decades there have been people complaining about certain aspects of the lore in DnD be it the color of the evil Drow or the caricaturization of real life cultures and WoTC just shrugged. Not only that, the entire organization has been shown to be incredibly discriminatory. *HOSTILE LINK EDITED OUT*

I agree that it would be far better for the setting of FR to paint all races, cultures, and creatures in more shades of grey. I simply don't trust WoTC to do it in an intelligent and interesting way. We are going to end up with the most cringe worthy, watered down, clumsy results possible. I'd rather see them work on fixing their internal diversity problems first. If you fill your staff with a talented diverse team, that will without question lead to a much better product on the pages.

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Originally posted by Ayrik

@Caolin - the site you linked appears to be hostile.

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Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

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Originally posted by Caolin

Late to this discussion, but here is my two cents. I feel this is pure pandering from WoTC. For decades there have been people complaining about certain aspects of the lore in DnD be it the color of the evil Drow or the caricaturization of real life cultures and WoTC just shrugged. Not only that, the entire organization has been shown to be incredibly discriminatory. *HOSTILE LINK EDITED OUT*

I agree that it would be far better for the setting of FR to paint all races, cultures, and creatures in more shades of grey. I simply don't trust WoTC to do it in an intelligent and interesting way. We are going to end up with the most cringe worthy, watered down, clumsy results possible. I'd rather see them work on fixing their internal diversity problems first. If you fill your staff with a talented diverse team, that will without question lead to a much better product on the pages.

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I have to agree with Ayrik, not only is the site listed as hostile and dangerous for browsers, but it makes me wonder your intentions for posting that link.

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Originally posted by sfdragon

I was familiar with some of that Caolin, but not all of it. The Quartering on youtube had done a video on wizards of the coast on a similar matter.
I also agree with you that each culture being shown in more shades of Grey would be better for the setting and I too do not trust wotc to do it right as well. I see them making all the bbeg npcs all white for a long time all in the name of inclusivity and Diversity. Pandering to a group who won't buy their products...

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Originally posted by keftiu

Can we maybe cool it with the “virtue signaling” thing? It’s a dogwhistle for some of the worst types, and gets used to decry literally anything that represents or benefits marginalized folks.

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I suspect sleyvas that you are about to be loudly shouted down and accused of all manner of evils.

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I'm similar to sleyvas. I'm against stopping people from doing things because of their ethnicity or treating them badly for the same reason . Words however are just words, people seem to be offended by everything these days and it doesnt make me want to learn about their problems when they shout everything down as offensive (politicians in particular do this routinely now to end a discussion that they are faring poorly in).

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison


I'll continue to use the word gypsy in my game because I mean it only to refer to travelling people (and it's easier to say than ethnic and gender neutral person of no fixed abode or destination) and not in a negative way, those that don't like it don't have to play my game. I'm sure at some point the term cis white guy will be offensive too (I've no idea what that means either). It is the intended meaning of the word that is the problem and not the word itself.

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison


In a world where everyone is a unique and delicate flower, and no stereotypes exist then that becomes the stereotype (that everyone is a unique and delicate flower) hence the creation of the term snowflake to refer to them.

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I've got evil in my games, racism as well (the eldreth veluthra are anti human), manipulation, magical coercion, torture, mental and physical abuse almost anything goes if the players are in agreement (and it's almost always npc to npc to provide motivation and depth to the npcs). It makes the game more real and immersive and allows people to fight against that evil in a way they could not in the real world. I'd never allow players to perform that evil (I even discourage the wholesale murder hobo game that dnd has become) themselves against each other or an npc. A game where everyone is nice and no
evil or conflict exists because it is not politically correct in the real world would make for an incredibly dull game.

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

And such is the nature of the real world and peoples appetite for offence, I will probably delete this post in 30 minutes for fear of being attacked by those crying "I'm offended"

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Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I'm sure at some point the term cis white guy will be offensive too (I've no idea what that means either). It is the intended meaning of the word that is the problem and not the word itself.

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Originally posted by Diffan

I think you guys are sort of missing the point behind the motivations of WotC here in their dealings going forward. No one's suggesting that "evil" isn't going to happen. There were still be monsters lurking, humanoids that choose to do evil for their own personal gain or maybe that of their organization or deity. None of that is honestly going to change, much -if at all. What WotC is suggesting is that, for sentient humanoids (human, halfling, elves [including dark elves], orcs/half-orcs, dwarves, etc) that there isn't an "INHERENT" evil within these species.

Further, removing cultural stereotypes from a group of people who are depicted and treated like Gypsies in all but name isn't bad at all. But at your table, you do what you want. WotC isn't going to send jack-booted thugs to your gaming table and enforce verbal policing. So likely none of their perceived changes are going to do anything for you - so no harm, no foul.

Also, every PC is a delicate, unique, individual flower otherwise you might as well just throw out the entire Character building process because there'd be no point if EVERY Fighter was the same, every Barbarian was the same, every Wizard having the same spells and abilities, no multiclassing, etc. I might as well play a fixed Video Game and be done with it.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Diffan

I think you guys are sort of missing the point behind the motivations of WotC here in their dealings going forward. No one's suggesting that "evil" isn't going to happen. There were still be monsters lurking, humanoids that choose to do evil for their own personal gain or maybe that of their organization or deity. None of that is honestly going to change, much -if at all. What WotC is suggesting is that, for sentient humanoids (human, halfling, elves [including dark elves], orcs/half-orcs, dwarves, etc) that there isn't an "INHERENT" evil within these species.

Further, removing cultural stereotypes from a group of people who are depicted and treated like Gypsies in all but name isn't bad at all. But at your table, you do what you want. WotC isn't going to send jack-booted thugs to your gaming table and enforce verbal policing. So likely none of their perceived changes are going to do anything for you - so no harm, no foul.

Also, every PC is a delicate, unique, individual flower otherwise you might as well just throw out the entire Character building process because there'd be no point if EVERY Fighter was the same, every Barbarian was the same, every Wizard having the same spells and abilities, no multiclassing, etc. I might as well play a fixed Video Game and be done with it.

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Hey Diffan, you nailed me. I don't get it. Like I asked previously.... what was so horrible about the depiction of the Vistani? I wasn't kidding when I asked it. Sure, some of them are belligerent drunks? Big deal, so are a lot of cultures that we've seen. So, they "steal" because they don't recognize the concept of personal property? So what, kender are treated almost like lovable folks for being pretty much similar. I'm literally not sure why that particular culture was called out more than any other, because I can say that there's a lot of them that are much worse. Personally, I find the slave taking duergar who would work their slaves to death to make some hammer as more of an issue (and honestly... I don't have an issue showing that in my games). The beholders with their amazingly racist views amongst their own kinds are somewhat... well maybe more than somewhat... insane. But, like I've said, I see these as evils which we can show as a dark mirror on real life in a way that helps people reflect on their own actions, and maybe improve themselves.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

By the way, not D&D related directly, and I'm so far removed from watching the news such that I know little about these riots and protests I'm seeing (and I'm purposely going to steer away from my views of the concept of some riots I'm tangentially hearing about on the news)…. but there is something I'm seeing on my phone that I'm not getting. I've seen a couple articles pop up recently about J.K. Rowling (author of Harry Potter) being somehow offensive to some (and I use the word some because I don't know which) portion of the LGBTQ (I type that right?) community. Quite frankly, I'm baffled. Fifteen years ago, I would have told you I would have never have read those stories because they were "kids books". Then I watched the movies. Then I met my fiancé, and she said she loved them. I love her. She reads to her daughter every night for an hour, and her daughter is now eleven. Over the past 8 years, I've helped her find new stories to read to her daughter, and ironically Jade likes many of the types of fantasy that I would have loved to read as a kid (but which weren't around). But they also read some of the really old stuff, because I recommended looking at them even when I hadn't read them (like the Narnia series of books). So, when she decided her daughter was old enough to be read Harry Potter, I decided I'd read along with them. I fell in love with the stories. I'm now an avid Harry Potter fan (I consider myself house Ravenclaw, though I tested into Gryffindor somehow).

So, when I see people yelling and screaming that Rowling is somehow insensitive to the plights of these communities, honestly it makes me want to draw a sword and charge forward to defend her. I find her very sensitive to their ideas. I find her to be a thoughtful, introspective person, especially after how in her final HP book she brought out some views on Dumbledore that I'd been noting (i.e. he's secretive, untrusting, and not necessarily as "good" as he's painted, etc....). I've seen some scribes here say some things about Ed's views on these communities as well as being unenlightened, and honestly I consider him as similar to Rowling (though, I think he comes at it from the views of a male, so he's a bit more lurid, but hey.... am I wrong for liking thinking about the Simbul being sexy, or liking that one of the seven sisters chops wood in the nude?). In fact, I've suspected that Rowling's Dumbledore MIGHT be based on Ed's depiction of Elminster, but I could very much be wrong. So, again, I don't get it, because it seems to me they're disagreeing with the same people who are supporting their platforms??? I don't know why people are offended so easily literally because I'm not understanding what's their argument for their offense (and a lot of times, I will say that may be because they don't present their arguments clearly.... shoot me as the messenger for saying that, but a lot of things just seem to be name calling to separate people into factions).

EDIT: Oh, and just cause..... Long Live Luna Lovegood!

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Diffan

I think you guys are sort of missing the point behind the motivations of WotC here in their dealings going forward. No one's suggesting that "evil" isn't going to happen. There were still be monsters lurking, humanoids that choose to do evil for their own personal gain or maybe that of their organization or deity. None of that is honestly going to change, much -if at all. What WotC is suggesting is that, for sentient humanoids (human, halfling, elves [including dark elves], orcs/half-orcs, dwarves, etc) that there isn't an "INHERENT" evil within these species.

Further, removing cultural stereotypes from a group of people who are depicted and treated like Gypsies in all but name isn't bad at all. But at your table, you do what you want. WotC isn't going to send jack-booted thugs to your gaming table and enforce verbal policing. So likely none of their perceived changes are going to do anything for you - so no harm, no foul.

Also, every PC is a delicate, unique, individual flower otherwise you might as well just throw out the entire Character building process because there'd be no point if EVERY Fighter was the same, every Barbarian was the same, every Wizard having the same spells and abilities, no multiclassing, etc. I might as well play a fixed Video Game and be done with it.

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Hey Diffan, you nailed me. I don't get it. Like I asked previously.... what was so horrible about the depiction of the Vistani? I wasn't kidding when I asked it. Sure, some of them are belligerent drunks? Big deal, so are a lot of cultures that we've seen. So, they "steal" because they don't recognize the concept of personal property? So what, kender are treated almost like lovable folks for being pretty much similar. I'm literally not sure why that particular culture was called out more than any other, because I can say that there's a lot of them that are much worse. Personally, I find the slave taking duergar who would work their slaves to death to make some hammer as more of an issue (and honestly... I don't have an issue showing that in my games). The beholders with their amazingly racist views amongst their own kinds are somewhat... well maybe more than somewhat... insane. But, like I've said, I see these as evils which we can show as a dark mirror on real life in a way that helps people reflect on their own actions, and maybe improve themselves.

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The issue is that the Vistani are based on stereotypes about the Romani people. The Romani have been mistreated for generations, to the point that a common word for ripping people off -- "gyp" -- comes from the more well-known term for the group, "Gypsies." The Nazis attempted to wipe out the Romani people entirely, killing them by the thousands and sending many to the same concentration camps more well-known for the attempted genocide of Jewish people.

Even in today's world, there is still a lot of prejudice against the Romani, especially in Europe. Others could prolly offer more info there; I've read a fair amount on the topic, but living in the US, it's not something I've seen directly, and I've not researched it as much as others.

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