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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Jun 2020 : 16:09:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
Nobody has the right to dictate what someone should or should not find offensive as this changes between individuals.
Nobody has the right to think or speak for another without that individual's consent
Nobody has the right to be offended for another who feels that person should be offended over something.
Yet I've seen and heard of this going on.
That doesn't make it right.
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
also: The more you try not to offend anyone, the more you risk offending everyone
The objective isn't to try not to offend anyone at all -- the objective is to stop doing things that are known to offend specific groups, like perpetuating offensive stereotypes.
You realize that you can not please everyone right? Which is what not wanting to offend anyone is trying to do.
also, the only people who care about how the darker skin tone creatures are presented tend to be in that group that Malcolm X did not have any love for near the end of his life.
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2020 : 16:12:52
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
(Can we take the TES lore to another thread?)
no. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2020 : 16:34:37
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
Nobody has the right to dictate what someone should or should not find offensive as this changes between individuals.
Nobody has the right to think or speak for another without that individual's consent
Nobody has the right to be offended for another who feels that person should be offended over something.
Yet I've seen and heard of this going on.
That doesn't make it right.
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
also: The more you try not to offend anyone, the more you risk offending everyone
The objective isn't to try not to offend anyone at all -- the objective is to stop doing things that are known to offend specific groups, like perpetuating offensive stereotypes.
You realize that you can not please everyone right? Which is what not wanting to offend anyone is trying to do.
also, the only people who care about how the darker skin tone creatures are presented tend to be in that group that Malcolm X did not have any love for near the end of his life.
Again, the objective is to stop doing things that are known to offend specific groups, like perpetuating offensive stereotypes.
And there's more thing than just skintone that can provide offense -- like pigeonholing groups of people the way your last line does.
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2020 : 16:44:11
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
Nobody has the right to dictate what someone should or should not find offensive as this changes between individuals.
Nobody has the right to think or speak for another without that individual's consent
Nobody has the right to be offended for another who feels that person should be offended over something.
Yet I've seen and heard of this going on.
That doesn't make it right.
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
also: The more you try not to offend anyone, the more you risk offending everyone
The objective isn't to try not to offend anyone at all -- the objective is to stop doing things that are known to offend specific groups, like perpetuating offensive stereotypes.
You realize that you can not please everyone right? Which is what not wanting to offend anyone is trying to do.
also, the only people who care about how the darker skin tone creatures are presented tend to be in that group that Malcolm X did not have any love for near the end of his life.
Let me see if I can explain it a bit better.
They aren't trying to please everyone. They want attract more diverse players than CIS White Guy. If that upsets CIS White Guy, they that CiS White Guy has prejudices that they don't want represented in their game and that CIS White Guy can leave the game and go play something else.
(By the way, this is my own personal opinion. If you come to my table with some of the things being said in this thread, you will be asked to leave.) |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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BrennonGoldeye
Learned Scribe
105 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2020 : 17:22:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
"Gypsy" is actually a racial slur in europe, it's the n-word used on Sinti and Roma
And given that information, I think we should all be more mindful of our usage of such language.
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Ugg...I'm sorry but I don't shred American English because some European is an arse. Gypsy has a positive connotation here now, like a lovable scamp, maybe Europe can be Europe and we can be the ones acting like adults? Note I'm smart enough to use Roma when refering to the actual ethnic group, some people may not be. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2020 : 18:31:10
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quote:
Originally posted by BrennonGoldeye
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
"Gypsy" is actually a racial slur in europe, it's the n-word used on Sinti and Roma
And given that information, I think we should all be more mindful of our usage of such language.
'
Ugg...I'm sorry but I don't shred American English because some European is an arse. Gypsy has a positive connotation here now, like a lovable scamp, maybe Europe can be Europe and we can be the ones acting like adults? Note I'm smart enough to use Roma when refering to the actual ethnic group, some people may not be.
Romani folks don’t stop existing once you leave Europe. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2020 : 18:58:32
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Diversity in D&D has always been its strength: a way to explore the social, hierarchical and racial tensions that inevitably come up in session a playful manner. I can't recount the amount of times we had genuine laughs from horrible situations; great catharsis for all.
I'd like to see more culturally inspired heroes and villains, i.e. role models for all racial groups and apprehensive philosophies originating from them, so as to enrich the amount of stories we can tell each other and come out the wiser. So I'm for a push for reprinting all the cultural flavored settings, and updating them through a more "woke perspective", and giving them a nice art budget to allow for exciting representation to scream from its pages.
Take both the bad and the good. For example imagine a revived Maztica book which details the great social network the indigenous folk utilized, allowing for a political intrigue game set against an oppressive hegemony of human sacrifice; an Al-Qadim book celebrating the scientific boom of the Islamic Golden age set during a religious purge of the heathen faiths of Faerun.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2020 : 19:21:57
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quote:
Originally posted by BrennonGoldeye
Ugg...I'm sorry but I don't shred American English because some European is an arse. Gypsy has a positive connotation here now, like a lovable scamp, maybe Europe can be Europe and we can be the ones acting like adults? Note I'm smart enough to use Roma when refering to the actual ethnic group, some people may not be.
And "gypsy" doesn't necessarily have a positive connotation in the U.S. I mean, the word "gypped" means you were conned and that is straight from gypsy.
Why being gypped hurts the Roma more than it hurts you |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 22 Jun 2020 19:23:11 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2020 : 20:54:55
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quote:
Originally posted by BrennonGoldeye
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
"Gypsy" is actually a racial slur in europe, it's the n-word used on Sinti and Roma
And given that information, I think we should all be more mindful of our usage of such language.
'
Ugg...I'm sorry but I don't shred American English because some European is an arse. Gypsy has a positive connotation here now, like a lovable scamp, maybe Europe can be Europe and we can be the ones acting like adults? Note I'm smart enough to use Roma when refering to the actual ethnic group, some people may not be.
Acting like adults means we stop using language that we know offends particular groups, even if they're not in your immediate vicinity. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2020 : 09:31:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
The original context of Drow may not have had the intent to hurt or portray actual POC in their description of "evil bad guys = black skin" and when you read the text it's because they're easier to blend into the Underdark shadows to help survival. Yet, and keftiu has a very good point, people don't initially see that and visual cues and first impressions mean everything.
I've never bought that black skin was meant to blend into dark areas better. One, there's no light -- their skin could be freaking fluorescent yellow with fluorescent green, purple, and orange polka dots, and it's not going to stand out any more in a lightless environment. Two, if dark skin is meant to blend into darkness -- why do they have white hair?
No, I think the "it blends in better!" was a much later explanation that someone tried to pass off as logic.
The look of the Drow made sense back when infravision was a thing, as the visible spectrum looks very different if you can see infrared.
It was supposed to be a simple way of using what the human eye can see using 80s B&W "thermal" TV images as an easy shorthand for DM's to describe the look of humanoid races in the Underdark. It just got way oversimplified due to editing, art, the passage of time, and then muddied further by later writers adopting 'Predatorvision' to describe the same thing.
Both the "divine curse" and "blend in" lore are just later attempts to explain an obsolete meta-mechanic in fiction that came back across to the sourcebook side of things and became canon.
How you'd now untie the Gordian knot of 30+ years of piled up art, lore and their iconic association with the Drow is a headache I'm glad I don't have.
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Edited by - BlackAce on 23 Jun 2020 09:37:02 |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2020 : 11:24:50
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I should mention a few things clarifying my view of "Gypsy". The name "Travelling Folk" in Norwegian, don't mean a Gypsy! It mean an folk calling itself, and is called, "Tater". As far I know the Travelling Folk in Norway still use the name given them, "Tater" mostly, and the language of the Taters, is one of several real life "Thieves Cant" languages. It's litterally a Scandinavian version of the languages in UK used as model for D&D's Thieves Cant.
This is same way, apparently Gygax borrowed the "alignment language" idea from Latin and Hebrew.
Ive seen the strange trees of the Traveling People in Ireland, decorated with things, they got their customs, ceremonies, or whatever. And wery obviously, is not, Romani. We too got two Travelling Peoples, so this term might cause issues. Gypsy do not. |
Edited by - Starshade on 23 Jun 2020 11:28:40 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2020 : 13:22:54
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| I'm a bit ahead of the curve regarding the Romani. Two years ago, my group started playing Pathfinder's Strange Aeons and I thought it would be fun to play a Varisian (their version of Romani) witch, so I started doing some research to work out her backstory and role-playing ideas. So, being uninformed as I was, I started my Googling with "gypsy" and went down that internet path of enlightenment and discovered not only more about their culture, but also about how bad things still are for many of them regarding racism and prejudices. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2020 : 13:49:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I'm a bit ahead of the curve regarding the Romani. Two years ago, my group started playing Pathfinder's Strange Aeons and I thought it would be fun to play a Varisian (their version of Romani) witch, so I started doing some research to work out her backstory and role-playing ideas. So, being uninformed as I was, I started my Googling with "gypsy" and went down that internet path of enlightenment and discovered not only more about their culture, but also about how bad things still are for many of them regarding racism and prejudices.
I've not actively researched it, myself, but I get a lot of my news from the BBC, and they've far more of a focus on European events than most US news sources. I've read more than once, there, about how the Roma are treated, and that was enough for me to rethink certain things. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2020 : 22:09:51
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| The thing about the Roma is that Americans get only a secondhand view of them. The general view of people who have to live with them isn't so kind. |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2020 : 22:32:38
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In D&D race is NOT a social construct. It is something very solid and real. As are deities. I don't see how does it make sense to change stat differences of races. Why have any race at all then?
I don't believe in religion or god but I love playing cleric characters and I love deity lore. With this logic I should be hating gods in D&D and demand that they remove divinity in the game. Nonsense.
I see that they are coming from somewhere good and try to do something positive but you don't need to take D&D so seriously that it is interwined with real life politics. I appreciate the sentiment and the left leanings of the company as I support these ideals in life but we also need to remember this is a game and each setting has different racial stereotypes. Having a race that is evil like Drow doesn't make you a racist bigot in real life.
I support the Vistani stuff to remove negative stereotypes associated with Romani people (at least they could be interesting now since Vistani has always been a boring and unimaginitive culture) but I don't see how it makes sense to say orcs will be different in other books. They have always been diffrent according to the setting. D&D never had any racist tendencies.
If we start going out of our way to create "non-standard" characters like good drow, philosopher orcs, evil murderer halflings and corrupt elves...etc. in the end we will only end up with a party of snowflakes. There is a reason to have certain established information on the culture of a race since it all makes sense in the context of a setting. You can have a setting where orcs are good and intelligent but you should write your setting to have that make sense. I don't see the point in retroactively changing the lore of established settings for the sake of modern day politics. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2020 : 22:45:32
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| will someone delete this post....@$@$ browser |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
Edited by - sfdragon on 23 Jun 2020 22:52:39 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2020 : 22:58:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
Nobody has the right to dictate what someone should or should not find offensive as this changes between individuals.
Nobody has the right to think or speak for another without that individual's consent
Nobody has the right to be offended for another who feels that person should be offended over something.
Yet I've seen and heard of this going on.
That doesn't make it right.
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
also: The more you try not to offend anyone, the more you risk offending everyone
The objective isn't to try not to offend anyone at all -- the objective is to stop doing things that are known to offend specific groups, like perpetuating offensive stereotypes.
You realize that you can not please everyone right? Which is what not wanting to offend anyone is trying to do.
also, the only people who care about how the darker skin tone creatures are presented tend to be in that group that Malcolm X did not have any love for near the end of his life.
Let me see if I can explain it a bit better.
They aren't trying to please everyone. They want attract more diverse players than CIS White Guy. If that upsets CIS White Guy, they that CiS White Guy has prejudices that they don't want represented in their game and that CIS White Guy can leave the game and go play something else.
(By the way, this is my own personal opinion. If you come to my table with some of the things being said in this thread, you will be asked to leave.)
Trust me, I wouldnt give you my log in name here If I met you in person and was allowed to play a game at your table. All you'd get is a Dwarf character wielding an axe wearing chain and pretends to be mute. Axe's name is Silence's, shield's name is golden. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2020 : 23:02:20
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Oh and... with me, it is more how and what you are changing as I said I agree with hiring the Romani to throw out any negative traits that resemble their culture. I do agree with some other things that should be changed, but what worries me is when you change something that takes away a villain.
Could you imagine Bane as LN instead of LE?
or turning a known npc into a black npc when npc has always been white |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
Edited by - sfdragon on 23 Jun 2020 23:07:07 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2020 : 23:45:13
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The thing about the Roma is that Americans get only a secondhand view of them. The general view of people who have to live with them isn't so kind.
Well from a country (Poland) and even city with some number of Roma...I can say the "general view of people who have to live with them isn't so kind" is not just that Roma deserve their reputation, but is more of self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts.
Romani criminality (which to be fair, the worst I meet or heard from people I know was con artistry and minor theft, but there is worse from what I read), is part due to severe prejudice towards Roma (according to statistics from my country, in my country they are the ethnic group facing the most racial prejudice hatred and discrimination. Many other European countries are similar or not much better). And believe me, people believe and say things in not only Poland, but other European countries, that would be considered as disgustingly racist towards any other group.
General difficulties with assimilation, is that the majority of assimilated Roma, lose their connection to their nationality and culture, which causes in part the closed of nature of their society, and holding to archaic values, due to them being which actually allowed them to survive as an socio-ethnic group, and fearing that without them they would essentially cease to exist as a culture and nationality.
(Fears that sadly, aren't entirely unfounded)
It's also rarely talked about, but Nazis killed half or even 75% of the population of Roma in Europe at time.
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/genocide-of-european-roma-gypsies-1939-1945
https://web.archive.org/web/20110928102756/http://www.radoc.net/radoc.php?doc=art_e_holocaust_porrajmos&lang=en&articles=
From what I learned, Nazi treatment of Roma was as cruel as of the Jewish people.
But there never was any comparable financial recompensation form Germany to Romani groups, and (West) Germany formally recognized that Germany had committed genocide against the Romani only in 1982, 37 years after World War 2 ended. And in general it's a far less remembered tragedy, despite similar scale. |
Edited by - Baltas on 24 Jun 2020 00:25:02 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2020 : 00:29:04
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| Nazi mistreatment of the mentally disabled was just as bad..... yep, he killed them too, but this is neither here nor there |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2020 : 00:50:56
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
Nazi mistreatment of the mentally disabled was just as bad..... yep, he killed them too, but this is neither here nor there
So why say it? |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2020 : 00:52:26
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They also treated homosexuals and bisexuals, and physically disabled horribly and committed mass murdered towards these groups.
Well the thing is, one cannot really pay any recompensation to these groups, and I'm not sure if they murdered them at such a scope like Roma (as I don't think Nazis managed to kill 50%-75% of all homosexuals and bisexuals, and mentally and physically disabled in Europe. If proven wrong then I apologize in advance) and Jews.
It's also sadly still (visibly) more accepted to rationalize prejudice towards Roma, than towards Jews, mentally disabled, physically disabled, homosexuals and bisexuals (yes it's still present but I think all people get my point.), despite the same prejudices being what caused and allowed the horrific genocides by the Nazis. |
Edited by - Baltas on 24 Jun 2020 01:01:26 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2020 : 00:53:21
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The thing about the Roma is that Americans get only a secondhand view of them. The general view of people who have to live with them isn't so kind.
Damn dude, you're really gonna bring out the "the racism is justified, actually" card? |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2020 : 01:10:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
They also treated homosexuals and bisexuals, and physically disabled horribly and committed mass murdered towards these groups.
Well the thing is, one cannot really pay any recompensation to these groups, and I'm not sure if they murdered them at such a scope like Roma (as I don't think Nazis managed to kill 50%-75% of all homosexuals and bisexuals, and mentally and physically disabled in Europe. If proven wrong then I apologize in advance) and Jews.
It's also sadly still (visibly) more accepted to rationalize prejudice towards Roma, than towards Jews, mentally disabled, physically disabled, homosexuals and bisexuals (yes it's still present but I think all people get my point.), despite the same prejudices being what caused and allowed the horrific genocides by the Nazis.
This I also knew.
I have nothing against the Jews, but even I wonder if any of things said about the Roma were true at some point...
But then I'd be a Historian with too much time on his hands if I went and looked..... and that would be a lot of looking. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2020 : 01:19:29
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The thing is, even they were, it's not a justification for hated and discrimination towards them.
And especially to what Nazis done to them.
It's confirmed many Caucasian nationalities, done horrific stuff, many being even part and etched to their culture, should we also consider that? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2020 : 01:25:19
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The thing about the Roma is that Americans get only a secondhand view of them. The general view of people who have to live with them isn't so kind.
I don't care who lives where. We do not condone prejudice towards any ethnicity, gender, sexuality, or religion. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2020 : 02:59:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
The thing is, even they were, it's not a justification for hated and discrimination towards them.
And especially to what Nazis done to them.
It's confirmed many Caucasian nationalities, done horrific stuff, many being even part and etched to their culture, should we also consider that?
nah, because every culture has bloody skeletons in their closets, from vile pieces of trash like Vlad the Impaler( the folk hero of Romania and monster to the rest of the world and a product of the times to me), Countess Elizabeth Báthory( the blood countess) and this one pre culmbian native american ( who's name I forget) who even by his people's ways was a vile human being and he later attoned and led his people with honor after been shown the error of his ways, to Generals like William Sherman, Alexander the Great, to Rommel, to Patton, to Molotov( poor guy, his claim to infamy is being linked to a poor man's explosive device that existed long before he did) to serial killers like Al Capone , to Jack The Ripper( is it Jack or Jacqueline??) to Ted Bundy, to.... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2020 : 03:50:07
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| Whoa, Rommel shouldn't be included on that list of vile epithets! The "Desert Fox" was a brilliant military genius - indeed, also a prominent speaker for peace when such speech was not in conflict with his station and oath and duty - he unfortunately just happened to work for an evil overlord on the wrong side of history. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2020 : 03:53:37
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Well that's what I meant - all peoples have and bad guys.
And all could be said to have pretty horrible traditions in past, or even now.
As keftiu and Wooly stated, there is no justification for prejudice.
And to be clear, I'm not trying to even argue it's the case - this should be obvious. I hope though people here, who come of as having doubts about this about this, at least will think about this. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2020 : 04:12:13
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Patton, Sherman, ALaxander the Great shouldnt be on a vile list either. They are there because I'm sure each of them has some questionable doings while they served their countries.
Sherman burned Georgia to the ground on his march through it. One city he ordered the rest he did not his men did that themselves. When you need to bring a war to an end and demoralize your enemy to aid its end well... He is demonized for stuff that he and his men did not do too so...
PAtton punched a guy in the hospital and was supposed to be really hard to work with.
Alexander... well, I'm not big with ancient Greece , Egypt, and east of Egypt history. Wikipedia doesn't show a whole lot so...
That said,
I hold
Patton, Sherman, Rommel, and Manfred von Richthofen in high regard, not for who they served or their political outlook , only for their accomplishments. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
Edited by - sfdragon on 24 Jun 2020 04:12:56 |
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Official: Diversity and Dungeons & Dragons
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