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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Jun 2020 : 15:09:18
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Set had red hair? That explains a lot. I am off to let my redheaded friends know that I am on to them and that they are evil incarnate!  |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2020 : 15:37:36
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Drow being black-skinned aren't an issue as long as nobody tries to conflate real world racial groups with the drow. They're a creepy cursed underground race that worship a cruel goddess. In a game world, there's nothing wrong with that, especially in D&D where good and evil are literal building blocks of reality. That's not racist, no more than black-scaled dragons being evil is racist, or the demon prince of shadow and sex being black-skinned is racist. That's like saying that the Egyptians were racist against redheaded caucasians just because Set was depicted as a ginger.
By that same merit, look at the Dunmer of TES, a race of golden-skinned elves that were cursed by their own goddess to have black skin, kept a religious police, and have a famous culture of xenophobia and slavery, and yet they're by far one of the most beloved and iconic races of the series.
But nobody says that the Dunmer or the drow are actually based on real-life dark-skinned cultures, unless you want to be offended for the sake of being offended.
Also, there's a lot more POC than African Americans. I doubt a South Indian or Han Chinese is really going to care.
Yes, it's not an issue as long as people don't tie real-life racism to the drow.
That being said, I have seen a LOT of gamers that do just that. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2020 : 15:58:22
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Well, some of you have brought interesting points, but we also need to take into account that stuff that seemed ok some thirty years ago is not seen as good now (rightly so), and that many of the groups oppressed back then are fed up of that shit now. And we know that some of the stuff we see in D&D was created with some dehumanizing views in mind (orcs being the prime example, as Tolkien created them that way, and they were adopted just as Tolkien made them right into D&D). And there are a lot of examples of D&D creatures that were created that way, specifically in the older settings (Blackmoor, Greyhawk and even the Forgotten Realms).
So, I find it a good thing that WotC is trying to address that, and I really hope that they achieve some balance between respecting the lore and respecting the people. Because, yes, I know some people just get offended by everything for the sake of it, but there is also the fact that we face real-life racism out there in some capacity (some face it more than others), and we really don't need fantasy racism for the sake of "simulate reality". A lot of people play D&D to escape reality, and we are escaping from such stuff. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2020 : 16:11:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe RavenheartYes, it's not an issue as long as people don't tie real-life racism to the drow.
That being said, I have seen a LOT of gamers that do just that.
Can you blame them? For many years the D&D authors and fans have been fond of converting human cultures into cheesy, hollywood-esque fantasy versions of them. You cannot blame them for following the next logical step, and begin to compare the lore of the non-human races with human groups as well... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2020 : 16:19:09
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... I don't really see the orcs as being an issue, unless someone thinks that orcs map to real life groups; in which case I'd ask what they were smoking.
Orcs, in particular, were something that Tolkien struggled with due to his faith. D&d orcs were created by an evil god to spite other gods, made in his image. It's like trying to claim that orks are racist. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2020 : 16:35:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Can you blame them? For many years the D&D authors and fans have been fond of converting human cultures into cheesy, hollywood-esque fantasy versions of them. You cannot blame them for following the next logical step, and begin to compare the lore of the non-human races with human groups as well...
-I can, yeah, because if you say to yourself "Dark creatures are evil, so people of color must be too", you're an f'n moron. That said, I don't think that's an opinion I've ever heard either in person or anywhere on the internet, so that's good.
-I do agree about the "Hollywoodization" of actual cultures and the tropes that it causes can be problematic if they are done poorly. I was going to bring up wuxia, but then when I looked it up on wiki, wuxia is mainly Chinese written and produced. A lot of fictionalized accounts of other cultures are primarily written/produced by those cultures- and are for those cultures, an important point to bring up I think. Did not realize that. Games like D&D and generic fantasy/sci-fi novels have more going on there in that regard than movies and TV, which really surprised me. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2020 : 18:08:18
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Drow being black-skinned aren't an issue as long as nobody tries to conflate real world racial groups with the drow. They're a creepy cursed underground race that worship a cruel goddess. In a game world, there's nothing wrong with that, especially in D&D where good and evil are literal building blocks of reality. That's not racist, no more than black-scaled dragons being evil is racist, or the demon prince of shadow and sex being black-skinned is racist. That's like saying that the Egyptians were racist against redheaded caucasians just because Set was depicted as a ginger.
You're missing the point of what I said. I didn't say drow being black-skinned was racist -- I said that you can't put them on the big screen, in front of millions of people that know nothing about D&D or its fictional settings, and say "Oh, yeah, this race of black-skinned people are so evil they'll kill their own kids to get ahead!" without it being perceived as racist.
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
But nobody says that the Dunmer or the drow are actually based on real-life dark-skinned cultures, unless you want to be offended for the sake of being offended.
A lot of stuff that is racist is labeled as something else, just to avoid saying it's racist. That doesn't change the nature of it. And something doesn't have to be based on real-life cultures to be racist.
You don't get to dictate what offends someone else. Saying "all of these black-skinned people are incredibly evil" is plenty of reason for someone to be offended.
Saying someone is offended for the sake of being offended is saying that you don't respect their opinions. You're dismissing them because you don't agree.
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Also, there's a lot more POC than African Americans. I doubt a South Indian or Han Chinese is really going to care.
No one said that this discussion was limited to African-Americans. My point was that depicting drow culture could easily offend anyone of African descent -- I didn't say it would offend everyone, though it certainly could offend a lot of people of a lot of heritages. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2020 : 18:23:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Can you blame them? For many years the D&D authors and fans have been fond of converting human cultures into cheesy, hollywood-esque fantasy versions of them. You cannot blame them for following the next logical step, and begin to compare the lore of the non-human races with human groups as well...
-I can, yeah, because if you say to yourself "Dark creatures are evil, so people of color must be too", you're an f'n moron. That said, I don't think that's an opinion I've ever heard either in person or anywhere on the internet, so that's good.
People don't say that. The issue is that when you say "this particular trait is shared by all evil creatures" then people with that particular trait can see that as an attack on themselves.
Aside I said earlier, we've had people consider casting an albino actor as a villain in a movie to be an attack on albino people. Gungans in The Phantom Menace were attacked as an ethnic stereotype. Those are more recent cases; but this trend goes back a long way in the entertainment industry.
On the flipside, there's been a lot of talk about people really liking it when they see similar people in positive roles on the big screen -- Black Panther, in particular, got a lot of attention for this. I read a story about someone crying for joy at seeing Cassian Andor, in Rogue One, because of the actor's shared heritage with that particular viewer.
Like it or not, people identifying with characters that share ethnicity or other similar traits is a very well-known phenomenon. That's why it's important to take care with how any grouping -- be it ethnic, religious, physical, or some socio-political division -- is depicted. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2020 : 20:21:52
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| Drow are going mainstream so no worries there. Spirit Halloween has announced a partnership with WoTC to produce a Dungeons and Dragons costume line. The first ones are Drizzt, Cattie Brie, and a "Dungeon Master". You can even get Drizzt's swords to complete your outfit (live panther not included). |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2020 : 20:31:16
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Drow are going mainstream so no worries there. Spirit Halloween has announced a partnership with WoTC to produce a Dungeons and Dragons costume line. The first ones are Drizzt, Cattie Brie, and a "Dungeon Master". You can even get Drizzt's swords to complete your outfit (live panther not included).
D&D is far more accepted than it was, and non-geek companies are realizing that geeks are a market that can be tapped -- but D&D is still far from mainstream. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2020 : 21:29:04
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| I've met a lot of people who know of the Realms and D&D from video games, novels, media and merchandising. It's gone "mainstream" enough that non-nerd non-geek non-gamer "normal" people sometimes want to own or wear a bit of the brand to look smart. Far from "mainstream" but if you search for heroes and villains and monsters and medieval stuff and costumes you'll always find some D&D items - I think it's impossible for "normal" people to be unaware of the niche these days if any of their interests overlap with what D&D has encompassed. It's not like the 1980s where only hardcore wargaming bachelors and polyhedral comic-book-store customers even knew D&D existed. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2020 : 22:39:39
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Red Hair huh... hahahahahaha Did you Know that Thor has RED hair? Not the crap shoot Marvel one, the Actual Myth God, he is depicted with red hair.
You see a red haired person, careful, they might have the blood of Thor running through their veins.
Nobody has the right to dictate what someone should or should not find offensive as this changes between individuals.
Nobody has the right to think or speak for another without that individual's consent
Nobody has the right to be offended for another who feels that person should be offended over something.
Yet I've seen and heard of this going on.
As for the Dunmer, their dusky skin was indeed a curse from Azura who cursed them for 3 of them breaking their word on destroying the heart of Lorkan( Lorchan?? Shor). DnD drow(save possibly Eberron) got their dark skin for being far more vile and vicious than that one house of Sun Elves during the Crown Wars as a Result of the High Magic Ritual that came afterwards and the Court..
also: The more you try not to offend anyone, the more you risk offending everyone |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
Edited by - sfdragon on 20 Jun 2020 22:42:27 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2020 : 00:05:10
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| Thank you. That is even more proof that red hair = evil. Thor is probably another aspect of Set. Thor would eat the goats that would pull his chariot. That isn't a nice way to treat your pets. He even killed his own nephew. That isn't very nice, either. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2020 : 00:28:45
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
Nobody has the right to dictate what someone should or should not find offensive as this changes between individuals.
Nobody has the right to think or speak for another without that individual's consent
Nobody has the right to be offended for another who feels that person should be offended over something.
Yet I've seen and heard of this going on.
That doesn't make it right.
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
also: The more you try not to offend anyone, the more you risk offending everyone
The objective isn't to try not to offend anyone at all -- the objective is to stop doing things that are known to offend specific groups, like perpetuating offensive stereotypes. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2020 : 00:39:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
They could easily downplay things like Lolth, by a lot, or the "brute orcs", and give MUCH more relevance to factions like Many Arrows, the Eilistraeans, the Ondonti, etc...
Or even yet, they could rework stuff.
Lolth could be made into a character and society that makes sense,, while still keeping the positive points about her. She can be a deity of ambition, about turning challenges and struggles into strength, about determining one's own future, preserving one's own independence etc... (which would preserve the competition-focused society). Araushnee could have had an interesting development, had they tried to focus on "seizing one's own destiny" and her feeling like a trophy wife, rather than "hurr durr, eeeeevil". This would also make Eilistraee a nice foil, with her effort to lure the drow on a "journey" to see what life can be and embrace (and nurture) the beauty in the world (rather than being blinded and missing on the joy of life due to hyperfocus on "success"), but also a good ally in that she too strives to empower the drow to choose their path. This version of Lolth would also go well with Vhaeraun's own efforts to restore the golden age of the drow.
And yes, that would require some retconning. At this point, WotC has already made so many retcons I don't think we have anything to lose. We might as well welcome some retcons that bring better quality worldbuilding.
Well, I support exploring any Arrows, the Eilistraeans, the Ondonti, as these are very interesting factions - especially Ondonti who were woefully underused.
I'm not sure about making Lolth sympathetic - I guesss her methods though could be more senseful rather as often she is presented, as at least borderline "stupid evil" and this could be with at least less retconing.
(And to be clear, there had been retcons to Lolth's origin already - for example originally she was at least strongly implied to not a fallen deity, but a Tanar'ri who infiltrated the Seldarine.)
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Tim isn't right wing, he's center leaning left.
sfdragon, sorry but I have to not believe you here, or at least Tim claiming he is such. A lot of his videos from what I see, basically use visibly right wing talking points and perspective, and even right wing propaganda, him ranting about "far left".
And many right wing people, claimed over the years they are "centrist" and/or "left leaning" - like the youtuber Sargon of Akkad, who Tim comes as similar to (I think he still claims to be left wing, despite even joining officially very visibly right wing political (UKIP) party, and being it's candidate and being part of move that made the party more visibly far right, as even critiqued by it's founder Nigel Farage).
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Drow being black-skinned aren't an issue as long as nobody tries to conflate real world racial groups with the drow. They're a creepy cursed underground race that worship a cruel goddess. In a game world, there's nothing wrong with that, especially in D&D where good and evil are literal building blocks of reality. That's not racist, no more than black-scaled dragons being evil is racist, or the demon prince of shadow and sex being black-skinned is racist. That's like saying that the Egyptians were racist against redheaded caucasians just because Set was depicted as a ginger.
By that same merit, look at the Dunmer of TES, a race of golden-skinned elves that were cursed by their own goddess to have black skin, kept a religious police, and have a famous culture of xenophobia and slavery, and yet they're by far one of the most beloved and iconic races of the series.
But nobody says that the Dunmer or the drow are actually based on real-life dark-skinned cultures, unless you want to be offended for the sake of being offended.
Also, there's a lot more POC than African Americans. I doubt a South Indian or Han Chinese is really going to care.
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
Red Hair huh... hahahahahaha Did you Know that Thor has RED hair? Not the crap shoot Marvel one, the Actual Myth God, he is depicted with red hair.
You see a red haired person, careful, they might have the blood of Thor running through their veins.
Nobody has the right to dictate what someone should or should not find offensive as this changes between individuals.
Nobody has the right to think or speak for another without that individual's consent
Nobody has the right to be offended for another who feels that person should be offended over something.
Yet I've seen and heard of this going on.
As for the Dunmer, their dusky skin was indeed a curse from Azura who cursed them for 3 of them breaking their word on destroying the heart of Lorkan( Lorchan?? Shor). DnD drow(save possibly Eberron) got their dark skin for being far more vile and vicious than that one house of Sun Elves during the Crown Wars as a Result of the High Magic Ritual that came afterwards and the Court..
also: The more you try not to offend anyone, the more you risk offending everyone
[quote]Originally posted by LordofBones
Drow being black-skinned aren't an issue as long as nobody tries to conflate real world racial groups with the drow. They're a creepy cursed underground race that worship a cruel goddess. In a game world, there's nothing wrong with that, especially in D&D where good and evil are literal building blocks of reality. That's not racist, no more than black-scaled dragons being evil is racist, or the demon prince of shadow and sex being black-skinned is racist. That's like saying that the Egyptians were racist against redheaded caucasians just because Set was depicted as a ginger.
By that same merit, look at the Dunmer of TES, a race of golden-skinned elves that were cursed by their own goddess to have black skin, kept a religious police, and have a famous culture of xenophobia and slavery, and yet they're by far one of the most beloved and iconic races of the series.
But nobody says that the Dunmer or the drow are actually based on real-life dark-skinned cultures, unless you want to be offended for the sake of being offended.
Also, there's a lot more POC than African Americans. I doubt a South Indian or Han Chinese is really going to care.
The thing is, the example with Set, is a pretty bad example to give - Set being demonized and being red haired had in part historical roots in racial issues.
Set was seen as a god of outsiders - including Indo-Europeans, but more so Semites, including Jews (who also had a tendency to red hair, at least more so than Egyptians).
He was therefore even equated by Egyptians with Ba'al Haddad (and possibly also Yahweh), and even had wives from the Semitic/Canaanite pantheon (ie Anat and Astarte). Overtime as tensions of Egyptians with Semitic peoples (and other non-Egyptians) grew, Set became more visibly evil in Egyptian religion.
(There are more reasons for Set's shift to a god of evil, but this one of of the more important ones.)
(And yes Egyptians discriminating against Jews/Hebrews, is more than just a Biblical tale, as some claim.)
Red Haired people were also demonized over the ages (including even as a form of Ani-Semitism, even outside Ancient Egypt):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair#Prejudice_and_discrimination_against_redheads
With Dunmer, they are far from a clear example - it's suggested in some Elder Scrolls lore Azura cursing the Dunmer with dark skin, might be just a myth (especially that she herself appears as a Dunmer), with it just being a "natural" change/mutation due to the presence of the Red Mountain (and maybe the Heart of Lorkhan). Azura herself is also not exactly a saint, even if she one of the more benevolent Daedra.
Other races also have comparable vices, and Dunmer aren't really presented as an "evil" culture.
Not to mention, Dunmer don't even have black skin, but grey (compared to ash in universe). |
Edited by - Baltas on 21 Jun 2020 03:40:22 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2020 : 01:58:37
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Azura cursing the Dunmer is confirmed by Sotha Sil in a conversation with Divyath Fyr. And, well, Azura is by far one of the most benevolent deity figures we've seen in TES. Talos began his career as Tiber Septim, also known as the dude who had his kids by his mistress aborted for the crime of disrupting the succession before they were born.
And by any metric Dunmer culture is pretty evil. They're open slavers, two of their primary gods are among the nastier Daedra, and they're xenophobes. Vivec is a narcisstic egomaniac who raped Azura because he's MK's mouthpiece, Almalexia went tragically insane, and they all gained their godhood by murdering their king and breaking their oath to their goddess.
When the King of Worms, of all people, calls you out on this, you know you've buggered up somewhere.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2020 : 02:36:36
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Oh yeah I forgot about that one.
Not really more evil than for example Altmer (who could be if anything worse), Ayleids, or even Imperials (the committed several genocides, conquered the whole continent due to a feeling of superiority, created a cult that almost broke the multiverse (and kinda still did), had a history of being very racist in the past, betrayed their allies, and outright aligned with Molag Bal (yes, it was their leadership, but many others also did), the one godly being that could stated in Elder Scrolls to be evil, due the Blue and Orange mentality of other gods as presented. And if we see the Aedra, Daedra, and being like Vivec, Anu and Padomay in light of good and evil, Molag Bal is probably the worst. And if you read some deeper lore, Tiber Septim did some worse things than forcing his lover aborting his kid (which is f*cked up, but yes, he done worse things.) Bretons and Redguards destroyed Ordinum several times (and committed Genocide against orcs), even after Orcs being their allies, with Bretons being virulently racist towards orcs through ages. (In general, I might remember it wrong but it seems many nations/peoples in Elder Scrolls committed more genocides than Dunmer.)
Azura cursing a race the is a patron of, for a sin of three also isn't exactly good, and that thing was pretty much one of her visibly more evil actions. I mean, only three Chimer stole divinity, and possibly one was the one who killed Nerevar (Vivec, as his
admission of guilt hidden in the 36 Lessons of Vivec, and during his trial, and in dialogue, when asked about the murder of Nerevar, he states the "Tribunal" didn't kill Nerevar, which might a a practical truth - ie says the the Tribal together didn't kill Nerevar...which doesn't mean he didn't.)
You also ignore Dunmer form within worked to liberalize their policies, and far from Dunmer were xenophobic - ie Ilmeni Dren, a Dunmer princess who worked to abolish slavery. And in general, there being a spectrum on how xenophobic Dunmer are.
And really, "Dunmer culture" (and Morrowind as a country) aren't really that worse than many real life "Western" countries were, even 200-300 years ago.
What mean is - Dunmer are not really that more evil than many other of the races/peoples of Tamriel.
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Edited by - Baltas on 21 Jun 2020 07:14:34 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2020 : 14:25:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Oh yeah I forgot about that one.
Not really more evil than for example Altmer (who could be if anything worse), Ayleids, or even Imperials (the committed several genocides, conquered the whole continent due to a feeling of superiority, created a cult that almost broke the multiverse (and kinda still did), had a history of being very racist in the past, betrayed their allies, and outright aligned with Molag Bal (yes, it was their leadership, but many others also did), the one godly being that could stated in Elder Scrolls to be evil, due the Blue and Orange mentality of other gods as presented. And if we see the Aedra, Daedra, and being like Vivec, Anu and Padomay in light of good and evil, Molag Bal is probably the worst. And if you read some deeper lore, Tiber Septim did some worse things than forcing his lover aborting his kid (which is f*cked up, but yes, he done worse things.) Bretons and Redguards destroyed Ordinum several times (and committed Genocide against orcs), even after Orcs being their allies, with Bretons being virulently racist towards orcs through ages. (In general, I might remember it wrong but it seems many nations/peoples in Elder Scrolls committed more genocides than Dunmer.)
The Altmer, until the coming of the Thalmor, were hardly worse. They generally kept their nastiness to themselves, and had their hands full with the Maormer and the Sload. And they didn't deserve Tibby Septim dropping a time-stomping god robot on their capital city.
The Ayleids were absolutely bad news.
The Imperials got kind of a bad rap. Reman and Tibby (and Reman may not even have been totally human, given that he made Sanguine, of all people, uncomfortable; Tibby was probably a Breton) are...special cases. The Cyrods had no issue with a Dunmeri empress (Katariah is beloved until now). The entire questline of ESO was started because Varen rebelled against the LOnghouse emperors legalized Daedric worship (by this, it's pretty obvious that they mean Bal and Dagon, not the inoffensive Azura), and just had the unfortunate luck to be manipulated by Mannimarco. The Alessian order wasn't a Cyrod-only thing either; its founder and the architect of its insanities was an Imga.
Did the Imperials screw up? Yes, but between their Emperor being deceived by the future God of Worms (GLORY TO THE KING OF WORMS FIE ON WEAK ARKAY-) and the fact that the Imperials really have no idea what's going on in the IC (and every faction has a 'what the hell' moment in the game, like the Dominion's little genocide program in Black Marsh), they're not even the worst of the bunch.
The Orsimer get it bad. Mythopeia works against them; they're the pariah folk locked between two kingdoms that HATE them, and they'll always be the Pariah Folk. It's what they are and what they always will be, courtesy of Boethiah. The Redguards are actually worse than the Bretons; the Bretons actually respect their former Direnni overlords, while the Redguards wiped out the left-handed elves.
The Nords wiped out the Falmer, then went ahead and attacked Morrowind until the Dunmer and Dwemer threw them out. Also, current Skyrim is hicksville.
In general though, the Man vs Mer conflict is something ingrained in TES. Considering how it all began, it's not really surprising; keep in mind that Men venerate Lorkhan, who is basically Satan to the Mer.
quote:
Azura cursing a race the is a patron of, for a sin of three also isn't exactly good, and that thing was pretty much one of her visibly more evil actions. I mean, only three Chimer stole divinity, and possibly one was the one who killed Nerevar (Vivec, as his
admission of guilt hidden in the 36 Lessons of Vivec, and during his trial, and in dialogue, when asked about the murder of Nerevar, he states the "Tribunal" didn't kill Nerevar, which might a a practical truth - ie says the the Tribal together didn't kill Nerevar...which doesn't mean he didn't.)
Azura punished the Tribunal, not just for murder, but for breaking an oath they swore to her. The 'curse' on the Dunmer was basically a skin change and free fire resistance for living near a volcano. There's also MK's artwork of Nerevar's murder, if that counts. Vivec himself instituted a religious police and then kept Baar Dau up with the explicit threat of letting it fall if the Dunmer stopped loving him. (Also, it's kind of hilarious, but Mannimarco heavily disapproves of the way they went about taking their power - he calls them the 'Three Thieves'.)
Given that Dunmeri culture remained stagnant, with religious schisms and an honest-to-god Gestapo under the Tribunal, it really doesn't help their case.
As for Azura herself, her antics are generally nowhere near the kind of hate she gets. The literal worst she did was give the Dunmer a tan. Akatosh by way of Alduin created Mehrunes Dagon.
quote:
You also ignore Dunmer form within worked to liberalize their policies, and far from Dunmer were xenophobic - ie Ilmeni Dren, a Dunmer princess who worked to abolish slavery. And in general, there being a spectrum on how xenophobic Dunmer are.
And really, "Dunmer culture" (and Morrowind as a country) aren't really that worse than many real life "Western" countries were, even 200-300 years ago.
What mean is - Dunmer are not really that more evil than many other of the races/peoples of Tamriel.
House Hlaalu is basically a nicer Mafia. Houses Dres and Indoril are slavers and religious fanatics. House Telvanni (best house, n'wahs!) is basically might makes right in action. They have a legalized murder cult that worships the goddess of murder (and Mephala is also possibly the Night Mother). One of their patron gods is the god of the unlawful overthrow of authority and plots. Their objection to the God of Rape (who Vivec actually slept with) is that he contaminates their gene pool, not that he's the God of Rape.
From an outside authority looking in, the Dunmeri culture is pretty evil. We know that they're actually a complex culture, but at a glance, the Dunmer worship literal murder gods, have an official assassination service, and engage in the slavery of sentient races - not goblins, but the sentient, sapient citizens of the Empire.
Also, if we want to look at Dunmeri royalty, there's also Morgiah, Helseth's sister. In Daggerfall, she sends you to be her messenger to none other than the King of Worms, to get his help in her rise to power.
Generally though, the Dunmer are a pretty nuanced culture and an excellent take on a traditionally evil system.
And House Telvanni is best house, n'wahs. |
Edited by - LordofBones on 21 Jun 2020 14:27:58 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2020 : 16:11:57
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Well, okay, now I see you clarify your stance about Dunmer.
Still I have some objections.
Altmer commit or at least committed til fairly recently regularly genocide on their own, by at least a lot killing most their babies for not being perfect enough (although it's very probable the Pocket Guide to the Empire exaggerated the amount of killed babies), or at leas done it until "fairly recently", and form what was told, as this wasn't really just Imperial racist propaganda.
(Although I get you meant this by "keeping their nastiness to themselves".)
Their biased and racially supremacist narrative (about being the purest, and closest to original elves, despite there being multiple in-universe evidence against it, with Aldmeris not even really existing) is large part what ultimately gave rise to 4th Era Thalmor, along with the Demonization of Lorkhan, and trying to lie Padomay was also not a "parent" to Akatosh (and Auriel, as both are the same, yet distinct).
Many Imperials still consciously worked with Mannimarco and Molag Bal. Earlier they gradually killed ans drove of of remaining Alyeids, to point they became an extinct race, including ones that aligned with Imperials, and helped them to form into the culture they became today.
One of their first great heroes, Pelinal, is a whitewashed insane mass murderer.
A visible part of modern Imperial culture and identity is based on racial supremacist propaganda, which falsifies human history, by claiming they entirely come from Atmorans (or Nords) (despite proof to contrary coming in large part from Nedes who were separate form Atmorans, and Imperials, especially Nibenese, having Akaviri/Tsaesci and Ayleid blood). With it intentionally being a parallel to the "Aryan" racial suremacist theories.
(To be clear, I'm not comparing this part of Imperial propaganda to Nazi propaganda - Aryan race supremacist theories far precede Nazism, even if they heavily influenced them).
(Many more "traditional" and educated Nibenese, as well as Blades do acknowledge and are even proud of their Akaviri heritage, many Imperials, especially those in around Imperial city, do buy the "Atmoran heritage" version of history.)
Imperials were also in past more Xenophobic (at the end of Second Era/very start of Third Era for example), seeing it a reason why Tiber Septim aborted his kid with Bareziah (as such child would never be accepted and used against him.)
While yes, the Alessian Order was not exclusive to Imperials, and it's founder/prophet was an Imga, still most of it's members were Imperials, and it's popularity first among the which allowed them to get so much power.
Yes, I agree Azura get's way to much hate - I just mean she still isn't a saint though, and her curse against Dunmer, is portrayed as an at least partly bad action, despite it's advantages.
(Also not all Dunmer even worshiped the Tribunal - ie the Ashlanders hate them and are a separate culture from the Great Houses)
Despite being a death cult, part of Morag Tong, and Mephala's cult, was to avoid genocide and unnecessary spill of blood through warfare, by assassination. Which possibly contributed in part on Dunmer not having so much genocides on their conscience.
(To be claer tough, Mephala though is the darkest of the three "Good" Daedra, and there clues by Kirkbride and in game (ie doesn't the statue of Sithis in ESO remind you of someone?), that it's not even that the Night Mother is Mephala - with possibly the "Sithis" worshiped by the Dark Brotherhood, and other worshipers of Sithis, is Mephala impersonating and/or mantling Sithis.)
Dunmer cultural stagnation, at least in the Third Era, was in part (but not entirely) as the Dunmer hate being subjugated/conquered, and held on to their traditional beliefs as they didn't want to at all lose themselves to Imperial cultural influence.
(Yes it's the sole reason, nor an explanation, but one of the reasons.)
About Goblins from what was seen, they are sentient (ie they have their own culture, language etc.), possibly also being deformed Mer, very possibly breed by Aldmer as a slave race, out of their number they though as "inferior", with some hints the Cyrodiil Goblins even having Alyeid blood.
Although maybe let's move this discussion to PM, as it started to get offtopic.
(But to be clear, yes House Telvanni is the best  )
But in general, I do think it would be interesting if Drow, even Lolthite Drow in D&D were at least kinda re-imagined akin to Dunmer, by at least giving more sense and nuance to their cruelty.
Or like Drow from Drowtales.
To be clear, I'm not saying should literally be like them, or take direct inspiration, but their culture being characterized with similar nuance. |
Edited by - Baltas on 21 Jun 2020 18:17:50 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2020 : 21:11:56
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Drow are going mainstream so no worries there. Spirit Halloween has announced a partnership with WoTC to produce a Dungeons and Dragons costume line. The first ones are Drizzt, Cattie Brie, and a "Dungeon Master". You can even get Drizzt's swords to complete your outfit (live panther not included).
A drizzt halloween costume? I fear that may be one of the worst ideas possible. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2020 : 21:32:30
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Hmmm, I guess you mean a Driz'zt costume, could be, if used with skin paint, as blackface (if being worn by a person with not naturally dark enough skin?).
It could be avoided, if one used grey, dark grey, dark blue or dark purple paint as Drow were presented with these skin colors (as far as Second edition, in fact). Or would still be an issue? |
Edited by - Baltas on 21 Jun 2020 21:33:14 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2020 : 22:42:08
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| Id be stunned if the costume had any bodypaint. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2020 : 23:10:08
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that would be why the Altmer don't like Talos.
They might not likely have minded if they did not have to worship him as a divine though. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2020 : 00:23:34
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Well, in part.
It's also at least heavily implied Thalmor wants to erase the worship of Talos, as they think with him being gone via people not believing he is a god anymore, it will be possible for Altmer to unravel Nirn, and be free of Lorkhan's creation. And humanity, to the point of ensuring humanity never even exist again in any capacity.:
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/f/p/3100000000000206858
They also dislike Talos, as for Thalmor, it's absurd a human could become a god.
Talos himself is also more complicated, as he isn't even solely Tiber Septim/Hjalti Early-Beard - he is a fusion of Tiber Septim/Hjalti Early-Beard, Ysmir Wulfharth (from who most of the legend of Talos is taken - warrior king Nord hero with mastery of Thu'um, who was born on Atmora), Zurin Arctus and essentially Lorkhan (via Wulfhart, Zurin Arctus and possibly Tiber Septim being his avatars/incarnations, but also Talos mantling Lorkhan).
The shared consciousness of Talos is visible in Morrowind, were Talos' avatar is named "Wulf", short for Wulfhart.
Although now this thread does kinda start to become an Elder Scrolls lore discussion thread...and it's in a large part my fault  |
Edited by - Baltas on 22 Jun 2020 00:41:22 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2020 : 03:12:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Hmmm, I guess you mean a Driz'zt costume, could be, if used with skin paint, as blackface (if being worn by a person with not naturally dark enough skin?).
It could be avoided, if one used grey, dark grey, dark blue or dark purple paint as Drow were presented with these skin colors (as far as Second edition, in fact). Or would still be an issue?
Wizards and TSR have been notorious for spotty artwork... If we take artwork as an official guide, then there's a topaz dragon in the Realms that looks exactly like a warforged, and at least one of the Seven Sisters has brown hair. And even with appearances in more than 20 comics books that they could reference, they still couldn't get Kyriani's appearance right -- she has, in fact, had three wildly different looks in various products, and only the black & white piece looked right.
No, the alternate skintone thing for drow came about in 3E, and it was a direct result of all the artwork that was wrong -- rather than demand that artists actually depict what they were being paid to depict, WotC decided to rewrite the lore. They claimed it was because the dark skintone was too difficult for artists to manage, despite the fact it had been managed as far back as 1E. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2020 : 03:22:19
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Let's be fair, from the elven perspective it's hard not to demonize Lorkhan. Magnus's response to learning what was really going on was to rip a hole in space and flee, and Auriel ripped out big L's heart. Even the Bretons don't like him much.
As for Imperial racism, I...can't really find a source that claims the Cyrods descended from Atmorans. The claims were made by Nords and Tibby himself, not by the Nibenese or the Colovians. It was the Imperials who went ahead and jossed the idea of Atmora being anything more than a frozen wasteland. |
Edited by - LordofBones on 22 Jun 2020 03:26:39 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2020 : 04:42:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Wizards and TSR have been notorious for spotty artwork... If we take artwork as an official guide, then there's a topaz dragon in the Realms that looks exactly like a warforged, and at least one of the Seven Sisters has brown hair. And even with appearances in more than 20 comics books that they could reference, they still couldn't get Kyriani's appearance right -- she has, in fact, had three wildly different looks in various products, and only the black & white piece looked right.
No, the alternate skintone thing for drow came about in 3E, and it was a direct result of all the artwork that was wrong -- rather than demand that artists actually depict what they were being paid to depict, WotC decided to rewrite the lore. They claimed it was because the dark skintone was too difficult for artists to manage, despite the fact it had been managed as far back as 1E.
Well, I didn't mean lore, but visual depiction (which people often do confuse for lore), sorry for confusion. The design of the Drow woman was also at least reused once more (in monochrome, but still visibly grey skinned):
https://66.media.tumblr.com/813ed29fa623e54cda5227e7d2877cf0/tumblr_onrg3bFcQy1r2s3h9o1_1280.jpg
It is a neat design though .
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Let's be fair, from the elven perspective it's hard not to demonize Lorkhan. Magnus's response to learning what was really going on was to rip a hole in space and flee, and Auriel ripped out big L's heart. Even the Bretons don't like him much.
As for Imperial racism, I...can't really find a source that claims the Cyrods descended from Atmorans. The claims were made by Nords and Tibby himself, not by the Nibenese or the Colovians. It was the Imperials who went ahead and jossed the idea of Atmora being anything more than a frozen wasteland.
Magnus' decision is kinda a strange being, especially that he might be another part of the "Akatosh-Lorkhan" entity, maybe even just being Lorkhan's doubts he cast, or an aspect he acquired when he mantled Anui-El.
Aside from the fact a Shezzarine/Lorkhan avatar (Zurin Arctus), was also an avatar of Magnus, it's odd Magnus didn't know a very crucial design element of the Mundus, which he is multiple times states as having designed... This suggests, along with multiple sources describing he if anything, was on board with Lorkhan's plan, but got cold feet at the end. And Magnus, like Lorkhan is also a missing god - even with the description of Magna-Ge, he is missing, like big L.
Breton dislike Lorkhan or "Sheor", is due to Mer influence on their heritage and culture.
Lorkhan being essentially right, was confirmed by Michael Kirkbride as the intent when he wrote the lore, and hinted in universe, like in "Spirit of Nirn, God of Mortals". Out of elves, curiously, it does seem Dunmer at least respect Lorkhan, and to some degree worship him. Even more curiously, Boethiah is actually portrayed as deeply respecting Lorkhan - Boethiah killed, humilated and cursed Trinimac for the murder of Lorkhan, and spreading lies about the Missing God, and in "The 36 Lessons of Vivec, Sermon 10", Boethuah outright is noted to have prayed to Lorkhan (called there the"the Frame-maker, the Scarab"), and suggesting Dunmer/Chimer should do the same. (Indeed, it presents an interesting paradox in Boethiah - despite being the god of betrayal, they are at least implied to be extremely loyal to Lorkhan - or at least see themselves/herself/himself as such - fans even calling Boethiah jokingly a "Lorkhan fangirl".)
Examples of Imperial sources claiming they or Nedes come from Atmora:
- Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition:
quote:
Indeed, if the history of the Nords is the history of humans on Tamriel, then Cyrodiil is the throne from which they will decide their destiny.
quote:
It was in the rain forests of the Nibenay Valley that the original Cyro-Nordic tribes, the Nibenese, learned a self-reliance that separated them culturally and economically from Skyrim.
It's noted by the Michael Kirkbride there is an intentional overlook on this propaganda, were it does mention Nedes and Nords as separate:
quote:
The Cyro-Nords that settled it had relinquished the fertile Nibenay Valley long ago, determined to conquer the frontier. Their primitive ferocity was disinclined to magic or the need for industry, preferring bloody engagement and plunder instead. After they had captured the Nedic port-cities of the Strident coast, the Westerners embarked on a mastery of the sea.
- Pocket Guide to the Empire, 3rd Edition (by the Imperial Geographical Society):
quote:
It is generally understood that neither the proto-elves, or Aldmer, nor the proto-men, or Nedics, lived in Tamriel during the earliest years of creation.
quote:
The Nedic people meanwhile came from the frozen land of Atmora to the north to what is today Skyrim. Where elves and men met, inevitably, there was hostility.
- Frontier, Conquest, and Accommodation: A Social History of Cyrodiil, were it's first suggested propaganda (book first stated to be written in 3E 344, ESO retconned it to be written in 2E 344, suggesting it already was used by Imperials in the Second Era):
quote:
Historians often portray the human settlement of Tamriel as a straightforward process of military expansion of the Nords of Skyrim. In fact, human settlers occupied nearly every corner of Tamriel before Skyrim was even founded. These so-called "Nedic peoples" include the proto-Cyrodilians, the ancestors of the Bretons, the aboriginals of Hammerfell, and perhaps a now-vanished Human population of Morrowind.
quote:
Ysgramor was certainly not the first human settler in Tamriel. In fact, in "fleeing civil war in Atmora", as the Song of Return states, Ysgramor was following a long tradition of migration from Atmora; Tamriel had served as a "safety valve" for Atmora for centuries before Ysgramor's arrival. Malcontents, dissidents, rebels, landless younger sons, all made the difficult crossing from Atmora to the "New World" of Tamriel. New archeological excavations date the earliest human settlements in Hammerfell, High Rock, and Cyrodiil at ME800-1000, centuries earlier than Ysgramor, even assuming that the twelve Nord "kings" prior to Harald were actual historical figures.
- Kurt Kuhlmann (one of the writers) posts on Nedes:
quote:
The usual Imperial arrogance. The hoary old "Out of Atmora" theory has been widely discredited (no reputable archaeologist would publicly support it these days), but the Imperial Geographers continue to beat the drum of the Nordic Fatherland in the best tradition of the Septim Empire. They seem to think that the imprimature of officialdom gives their outdated scholarship added weight -- which, unfortunately, it appears to in the eyes of the ever-gullible public which continues to snap up the latest Pocket Guides along with the rest of their Imperial Certified pablum. (HA)
- Michael Kirkbride
(a text from 1999):
quote:
Nedes (04/12/99)
The Nedic peoples are hardly mentioned in the PGE, which tried to hide the existence of Humans in Tamriel before the coming of the Nords. I could hardly offer a better contradiction to this notion than that of my friend-in-exile, Severus Reva
It's also not really claimed by Nords (as noted for example in Frontier, Conquest, and Accommodation, who indeed claim Atmorans returned to Tamriel from Atmora, with Tamriel being their ancestral lands), and I cannot find/remember the source now, bt at least some Nords mocked and made fun of the Imperial propaganda about their origins.
But in general, it's stated all books claiming there were no humans on Tamriel before a migration from Atmora, is propaganda, born from the Racial Supremacist theories of Imperials ("Indeed, if the history of the Nords is the history of humans on Tamriel, then Cyrodiil is the throne from which they will decide their destiny.", "The usual Imperial arrogance."), and possibly also ironically Altmer or earlier Aldmer propaganda. |
Edited by - Baltas on 22 Jun 2020 05:40:45 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2020 : 05:09:30
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| (Can we take the TES lore to another thread?) |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2020 : 05:12:31
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Yeah, sorry about that...^^;
Were would be the best though to start The Elder Scrolls lore discussion thread here?
(A general question, not specifically to keftiu) |
Edited by - Baltas on 22 Jun 2020 05:41:15 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2020 : 10:28:39
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Id be stunned if the costume had any bodypaint.
I'd be stunned if that would stop a lot of people from using it with face paint they just bought separately. It's a disaster waiting to happen.
And the sh##storm won't bother with checking whether the Black facepaint was bought separately. Even a huge warning label to not use with facepaint won't save them. |
Edited by - Mirtek on 22 Jun 2020 10:30:44 |
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Official: Diversity and Dungeons & Dragons
Topic Locked
