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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jun 2020 : 03:59:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I’ve written and deleted three responses already. Just know that topics like this cause undue stress in a place where an escape from reality is supposed to reign supreme. I hope this doesn’t end up dominating the conversations like it does now literally everywhere else. Just my two cents, I’ll kindly scroll on by for now on and hope my favorite game is recognizable as time passes.
Imagine how folks feel when they try to come enjoy their escapism and find it spitting on them.
All changes like this do is give more people the luxury of enjoying their fantasy the way you do. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2020 : 04:30:19
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A culture Based off of a culture in real life is not the culture in game its based off of.
As for Japan styled classes, like the Samurai and ninja and others that would come from there. Japan loves it when another culture shares into the culture that is Japan. So as long as you don't go insult them like Disney did with Lion King, they won't care.
As for Orcs, the person who said that orcs were written to be Black people in game was said by a person who doesnt like dnd. Orcs are not black people, they are not even human, but humanoid who yes at the base of their race are barbaric brutes who pillage, maim and ropey their way through their existance within the setting they exist in. Their skintone has usually always been Green, with the exception of that Grey Orc....
The Drow are a cursed race and are not even human to begin with, hell the dark elf from nordic folklore has red eyes and pale skin.
Wizards is also doing some token hiring right now, they are hiring non white people. Pandering tokenism was mentioned that is what it is. Instead of hiring a writer who can write and gives a snow balls chance in Elysium they end up with people who give a snowball's chance in the 9 hells.
A culture based off a culture in real live is only the inspiration to one in game. The culture in game is not a representative to one in real life.
People are looking to be offended at things and willing to be offended for another who they feel should be offended over something. I find it offensive to think for someone else and for someone else to think for me.
Everyone is allowed to sit at the gaming table.. I've heard tales of toxic female players getting a male player thrown out of a store becuase she( she was the late comer) didn't like how he was role playing his character....
You'd find someone who would take offense to a female drow character of mine that is an escape slave from a drowcity herself failing to realize that said character is not theirs and the backstory is just that and its a work of fiction. But they'd go and gripe to someone stating that I should change it because someone might get offended because she's an escaped slave.
People are going to be offended no matter what.
Everyone is allowed at the gaming table. See what's left of the setting and escapism when the puritan twitter outrage mob is done with it. WOTC if you are reading this, give the Realms in its entirety back to Ed Greenwood, or at the least what was originally his
Then send me a dictionary.....
ps. I know someone is going to take the above the wrong way too
PSS: I agree with hiring the Romi |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
Edited by - sfdragon on 19 Jun 2020 04:33:04 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2020 : 04:35:12
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| sfdragon, how do you know any new hires are incompetent? Or do you simply assume anyone from any kind of marginalized background will do the job worse than a cis white dude? |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2020 : 04:39:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I’ve written and deleted three responses already. Just know that topics like this cause undue stress in a place where an escape from reality is supposed to reign supreme. I hope this doesn’t end up dominating the conversations like it does now literally everywhere else. Just my two cents, I’ll kindly scroll on by for now on and hope my favorite game is recognizable as time passes.
Well let's see, the game has changed editions at least 5 times now (not counting basic, expert, etc) and th Realms have had half a dozen changing setting events. If the game/Realms is recognizable now, chances are their changes (justly warrented) won't deter that perception. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2020 : 05:04:28
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
sfdragon, how do you know any new hires are incompetent? Or do you simply assume anyone from any kind of marginalized background will do the job worse than a cis white dude?
hahahahaha
I guess I should have worded that better....
but no, I do not think that anyone from a marginalized background can do better orworse than a white dude. I'm just not big on token hires. If they can write a great story with believable characters great, if not....
especially where they are at in Seattle blantly stating that they are only hiring only non white people is illegal |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
Edited by - sfdragon on 19 Jun 2020 05:10:15 |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2020 : 15:49:24
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I think current media, and Wotc overthink this kind of topics. Imho. My personal understanding, games is about "fun". And D&D probably were for a long time a White, Male and Christian dominated, with the occational Jew around.
Since AD&D, to my understanding, were trying to attract girls, D&D was proactive regarding Diversity, imho.  |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2020 : 15:50:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I hope they actually follow up on this, and make a significant change to the portrayal of those folks in the main D&D setting, rather than just publishing alternative settings, while putting a bandaid fix on the mess that is the portrayal of races in the standard setting. A bandaid fix won't solve stuff like "the iconic dark skinned elves and the only matriarchy we highlight are all about masturbating to people being tortured, puppies being kicked, and kittens being eaten, under the pretense of survival of the fittest".
That's why I've maintained for years -- going back to before I was banned from the WotC forums -- that a Drizzt movie would be very problematic. You have to show the society he came from to make his being an outcast significant. Even in 2004ish, when I first started arguing against it, putting drow on the big screen, saying "okay, these folks will literally kill their own family members, without remorse, just to get ahead -- and they all happen to have very dark skin" -- that's just not going to fly with a very large portion of the movie-going public.
People that read for pleasure are a small portion of the movie-going audience, people that read fantasy are a smaller portion of that, and people that read Realms fiction are an even smaller portion. It's probably being overly generous to say that you'd have 10% of the audience that were already familiar with drow. The rest are going to be seeing it new, and it would be a difficult proposition to convince them that it wasn't racist allegory.
This statement is so true. I remember when this was brought up long ago, and I thought about it and said, "Oh yeah, I can totally see this being taken in a totally different vein by the American population". It is something to consider, there is the in-game views and the outside the game views, and sometimes that's not a clear line that one sees. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2020 : 16:22:27
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I hope they actually follow up on this, and make a significant change to the portrayal of those folks in the main D&D setting, rather than just publishing alternative settings, while putting a bandaid fix on the mess that is the portrayal of races in the standard setting. A bandaid fix won't solve stuff like "the iconic dark skinned elves and the only matriarchy we highlight are all about masturbating to people being tortured, puppies being kicked, and kittens being eaten, under the pretense of survival of the fittest".
That's why I've maintained for years -- going back to before I was banned from the WotC forums -- that a Drizzt movie would be very problematic. You have to show the society he came from to make his being an outcast significant. Even in 2004ish, when I first started arguing against it, putting drow on the big screen, saying "okay, these folks will literally kill their own family members, without remorse, just to get ahead -- and they all happen to have very dark skin" -- that's just not going to fly with a very large portion of the movie-going public.
People that read for pleasure are a small portion of the movie-going audience, people that read fantasy are a smaller portion of that, and people that read Realms fiction are an even smaller portion. It's probably being overly generous to say that you'd have 10% of the audience that were already familiar with drow. The rest are going to be seeing it new, and it would be a difficult proposition to convince them that it wasn't racist allegory.
This statement is so true. I remember when this was brought up long ago, and I thought about it and said, "Oh yeah, I can totally see this being taken in a totally different vein by the American population". It is something to consider, there is the in-game views and the outside the game views, and sometimes that's not a clear line that one sees.
Not just Americans, from what we've seen recently in Europe.
Really, even if a particular culture hadn't been exposed to that particular flavor of prejudice, I think they'd still consider such a thing to be a deliberate statement. Especially since prejudices based on skintone are not limited to people of African descent -- I've read more than once about a bias in India towards lighter skintones over darker ones. A coworker from India confirmed this and pointed out that Bollywood, in particular, favors those lighter skintones.
There was also a thing I read about after the movie The Da Vinci Code came out -- some people were upset that an albino person was cast as the albino character from the novel, because that character was a villain and there is a stereotype about albino people being evil. I'd never even heard of this, before that movie -- but then again, I'm not albino and have never spoken with an albino person, so I certainly cannot say that this does not exist. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Jun 2020 16:25:56 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2020 : 17:31:14
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Albino's evil?? hahaha that's rich. Whoever started that one 90% likely never met an Albino.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXedKQJwX6k
there is a 15 min video article on this from Tim Pool and or his friends on this matter. That I myself will have to watch later as in less than that in minutes must leave for work.
I'm also still waiting on that dictionary wotc.... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2020 : 18:09:40
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
Albino's evil?? hahaha that's rich. Whoever started that one 90% likely never met an Albino.
there is a 15 min video article on this from Tim Pool and or his friends on this matter. That I myself will have to watch later as in less than that in minutes must leave for work.
I'm also still waiting on that dictionary wotc....
And I have many people in my friends and family that will tell you how, back when they were in private Catholic schools, the nuns would slap the wrists, humiliate, and berate left-handed people because left-handed people allowed the devil into their heart.
By the way, linking to right-wing podcasters isn't helping your case... |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 19 Jun 2020 18:12:37 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2020 : 18:24:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
Albino's evil?? hahaha that's rich. Whoever started that one 90% likely never met an Albino.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXedKQJwX6k
there is a 15 min video article on this from Tim Pool and or his friends on this matter. That I myself will have to watch later as in less than that in minutes must leave for work.
I'm also still waiting on that dictionary wotc....
And I have many people in my friends and family that will tell you how, back when they were in private Catholic schools, the nuns would slap the wrists, humiliate, and berate left-handed people because left-handed people allowed the devil into their heart.
Honestly, when it starts to become a country where everyone is trying to outdo how much they've been the object of some kind of prejudice or other, we start to focus too much on our differences. I fear that's the path I see coming down to us where everyone becomes their own polarized group. I try to be open an honest and tell people what I honestly think about things, and sometimes my thinking changes after hearing the other side, but sometimes I'm ostracized for having the willingness to express my views. Its odd, I feel as though I already express the ideals that this article is meant to bring about, yet at the same time I'm not adverse to having things like racism and slavery in my games. I say that because I feel roleplay is about learning to see what actually happens in the world and trying to find a way to change it. I say that also because I feel like roleplay can show people what an awful world it can be if you aren't careful and don't learn from history. At the same time, when I see articles that are written like that, I unconsciously find myself questioning the motives of the author and wondering if there is subtext that I'm not seeing (which is exactly what I feel like at times people do to me).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Archmage of Nowhere
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2020 : 22:43:48
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It seems pretty disrespectful that wotc can retroactively assign meaning to Ed's inclusion and Salvatore's elaboration of the drow.
Instead of defending the Realms and the authors who helped pen them. They change books, alter old modules, and higher individuals to help restrict what can be depicted in their stories.
Narratives in all entertainment allow for a safe environment to expose people to concepts or ideas that challenge them. To be exposed to the truest form of racism in real life is dangerous and destructive. To see it in a book may only provide a glimpse in comparison but allows for the reader to learn through empathy, without being destroyed by it.
It is strange to me that people actively wish for the Realms to be altered, even when they know that the intent of most of these concepts were not malicious in origin.
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2020 : 22:49:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Archmage of Nowhere
It seems pretty disrespectful that wotc can retroactively assign meaning to Ed's inclusion and Salvatore's elaboration of the drow.
Instead of defending the Realms and the authors who helped pen them. They change books, alter old modules, and higher individuals to help restrict what can be depicted in their stories.
Narratives in all entertainment allow for a safe environment to expose people to concepts or ideas that challenge them. To be exposed to the truest form of racism in real life is dangerous and destructive. To see it in a book may only provide a glimpse in comparison but allows for the reader to learn through empathy, without being destroyed by it.
It is strange to me that people actively wish for the Realms to be altered, even when they know that the intent of most of these concepts were not malicious in origin.
Intent doesn't matter when you still do harm. "The evil elves are the ones with black skin" can have a total lack of malicious intent behind it, but I'd hope you can see how it hurts people - or keeps them out of the hobby, especially when all the 'good guy' elves just so happen to look like pretty white people. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Archmage of Nowhere
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2020 : 23:15:56
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To grow is to suffer, in all things.
Experiencing something hurtful should teach, not destroy. To deny someone the opportunity to grow as a person in a safe and private manner is far more harmful to them in the long run.
But more to the point, and the true travesty of this is the wonderful tale of Drizzt overcoming the trials brought about by the circumstances of his birth will be lessened by these changes. The true essence of why you need these elements is to depict people overcoming them or failing to overcome them.
These stories are powerful and to arbitrarily decide that the harm these tales do exceeds the positive is arrogance; to censure or restrict those tales based on that conclusion is wrong. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2020 : 23:19:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Archmage of Nowhere
It is strange to me that people actively wish for the Realms to be altered, even when they know that the intent of most of these concepts were not malicious in origin.
Um......I read this and you seem to imply that the Realms haven't been altered in the past and it's only now that changes are occurring. The Realms are always changing. Heck I'd say the common arguments here at the 'Keep are about how rules / canon / characters changed for either good or ill over the last 40+ years.
The original context of Drow may not have had the intent to hurt or portray actual POC in their description of "evil bad guys = black skin" and when you read the text it's because they're easier to blend into the Underdark shadows to help survival. Yet, and keftiu has a very good point, people don't initially see that and visual cues and first impressions mean everything.
Does it mean that instantly "ALL" Drow are perfectly good and happy and totally not xenophobic or have issues towards surface people? I'd think probably not. Does it mean they're instantly evil just because? Nope. You could also paint the picture that Menzoberranzan -specifically- is a sort of cruel place but other Drow cities and civilizations aren't nearly as intolerant and xenophobic and horrible towards everyone else. Heck look at Skullport, a place where MANY Drow inhabit and also have lots of dealing with other races - both above and below the surface. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2020 : 23:49:26
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
... especially when all the 'good guy' elves just so happen to look like pretty white people.
A closer look at the "good guy elves" reveals that they can be quite nasty, sneering, and inhumanly cruel. They might all have apparent youth and beauty but some of them are really quite ugly creatures. |
[/Ayrik] |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2020 : 23:52:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
... especially when all the 'good guy' elves just so happen to look like pretty white people.
A closer look at the "good guy elves" reveals that they can be quite nasty, sneering, and inhumanly cruel. They might all have apparent youth and beauty but some of them are really quite ugly creatures.
Sure, but until recently they got to be in the PHB and the drow got to be in the monster manual. The game assumes the white-looking elves will span the full range of possibilities and that our heroes will be drawn from their ranks, while the dark-skinned elves are so evil that “the one who isn’t a racial supremacist murderer-torturer” is a noteworthy character in the world. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2020 : 23:59:10
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| I guess I'm different. I'd rather have a game where everyone feels welcome at the table instead of following prejudices written in place (checks calendar) almost 50 years ago. A lot of things have changed in the real world in the last fifty years, I expect hobbies and entertainment to change as well. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4441 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2020 : 00:34:56
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Sure, but until recently they got to be in the PHB and the drow got to be in the monster manual.
Hey now, 4E made a lot of strives here to make these characters far more likeable to play, starting with the Forgotten Realms Players Guide. With the tons of options like feats and paragon paths plus Themes and backgrounds they were a total viable player option outside of the Core 3 books. |
Edited by - Diffan on 20 Jun 2020 00:35:40 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2020 : 01:14:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Sure, but until recently they got to be in the PHB and the drow got to be in the monster manual.
Hey now, 4E made a lot of strives here to make these characters far more likeable to play, starting with the Forgotten Realms Players Guide. With the tons of options like feats and paragon paths plus Themes and backgrounds they were a total viable player option outside of the Core 3 books.
You mean when they became a player race option in the Forgotten Realm's Players' Guide?
quote:
FRPG, p. 9
Most drow are singularly wicked. They are cruel in their dealings with others and treacherous among themselves. In the pursuit of power, status, and Lolth’s favor, drow houses compete with each other to amass wealth and enslave weaker races. The fickle whims of Lolth’s priestesses demand absolute obedience, driving the race to further evil.
Though most drow are villains firmly in the thrall of the Spider Queen, not all suffer so. Some drow escape the Underdark to find new lives on the surface, while a few reject the dominance of Lolth’s priestesses and form mercenary companies or trade consortiums of their own. These, however, are the exceptions. The Spider Queen’s church makes bloody examples of any it names enemies of its goddess. Few drow indeed dare to rebel against Lolth’s priestesses.
Drow are born into darkness. Their society is violent and capricious, a world where life is worthless and only power has any meaning. Even drow who escape the clutches of this sinister culture find themselves scarred by the lessons they learned in their youth.
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I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 20 Jun 2020 01:14:52 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2020 : 01:36:35
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| I think a lot about a comment I read from a black man, who told a story about trying to play an elf who looked like him in a high school D&D game and got told by his white friends that "elves aren't black." That's what the status quo gets us. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2020 : 03:02:49
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| well going from nordic myth, they aren't, but I wouldn't say they are white either. Obviously I have not met an actual elf.... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2020 : 03:06:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
[quote]Originally posted by sfdragon
clippped
By the way, linking to right-wing podcasters isn't helping your case...
Tim isn't right wing, he's center leaning left. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2020 : 03:27:50
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Speaking as an actual Indian, I'm not really bothered one way or the other by inclusivity or diversity. I generally see this being pushed by the tumbler crowd, like the whole 'Harry Potter is Hindu' hubbub.
Yes, that movement actually exists.
Note that I'm not from the US or Western Europe, so it's from an outsider's perspective. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2020 : 03:49:21
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And that LordofBones is actually what it is. Pushed by Twitter and other Social MEdia by people who won't even buy any of it.
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2020 : 04:12:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
The original context of Drow may not have had the intent to hurt or portray actual POC in their description of "evil bad guys = black skin" and when you read the text it's because they're easier to blend into the Underdark shadows to help survival. Yet, and keftiu has a very good point, people don't initially see that and visual cues and first impressions mean everything.
I've never bought that black skin was meant to blend into dark areas better. One, there's no light -- their skin could be freaking fluorescent yellow with fluorescent green, purple, and orange polka dots, and it's not going to stand out any more in a lightless environment. Two, if dark skin is meant to blend into darkness -- why do they have white hair?
No, I think the "it blends in better!" was a much later explanation that someone tried to pass off as logic. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe
Canada
210 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2020 : 04:28:42
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My general understanding of things, within the context of the calls for change within D&D is concerned, is a change in the language and descriptions used in describing various races. Those who are calling for such a change seem to feel that the existing language and description of some of the races, with a particular focus on those races that are in game terms described as intrinsically evil (orcs, drow and the like), utilize language and descriptions that were in the past (and/or perhaps still are) utilized in a racist/discriminatory fashion in the real world (for example, language and descriptions that can be correlated to things like wartime propaganda used to dehumanize an opponent). The goal, again near as I can tell, is to remove such language and description from the game, replaced with language and descriptions that abandon any potentially racist or exclusionary connotations, which will offer a more welcoming and inclusive game.
It may be a wider net of changes and/or goals, but that's the gist of things I've thus far managed to interpret from reading various forums. I may very well be completely off in my interpretation.
Personally I'm still processing it all and what benefits and what pitfalls may result. There are some points I agree with, some I don't and some I find absolutely bonkers, but it all hasn't quite coalesced for me just yet. One aspect of it all that I'm sensing is that there seems to be a rather strong sense of "You're either with us or against us" mentality permeating a lot of the discussions I'm watching/reading and very little nuance (but I could just be reading the wrong discussions). |
"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2020 : 05:36:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
The original context of Drow may not have had the intent to hurt or portray actual POC in their description of "evil bad guys = black skin" and when you read the text it's because they're easier to blend into the Underdark shadows to help survival. Yet, and keftiu has a very good point, people don't initially see that and visual cues and first impressions mean everything.
I've never bought that black skin was meant to blend into dark areas better. One, there's no light -- their skin could be freaking fluorescent yellow with fluorescent green, purple, and orange polka dots, and it's not going to stand out any more in a lightless environment. Two, if dark skin is meant to blend into darkness -- why do they have white hair?
No, I think the "it blends in better!" was a much later explanation that someone tried to pass off as logic.
I haven't read the post 2E stuff but my impression was that the skin color change was basically like a Mark of Cain type of thing. And, since baseline elves had lilly-white skin and various hair colors, the opposite of that is black skin and white hair. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2020 : 05:51:11
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
I haven't read the post 2E stuff but my impression was that the skin color change was basically like a Mark of Cain type of thing. And, since baseline elves had lilly-white skin and various hair colors, the opposite of that is black skin and white hair.
That may have been the original explanation -- but it's still problematic, because it's going with the idea that the darker the skin, the more evil the person (and vice versa: the lighter, the more goodly). Sure, there's a long-standing association betwixt those colors and good and evil -- but when skintone comes into the picture, that association gets messy. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2020 : 08:37:37
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Drow being black-skinned aren't an issue as long as nobody tries to conflate real world racial groups with the drow. They're a creepy cursed underground race that worship a cruel goddess. In a game world, there's nothing wrong with that, especially in D&D where good and evil are literal building blocks of reality. That's not racist, no more than black-scaled dragons being evil is racist, or the demon prince of shadow and sex being black-skinned is racist. That's like saying that the Egyptians were racist against redheaded caucasians just because Set was depicted as a ginger.
By that same merit, look at the Dunmer of TES, a race of golden-skinned elves that were cursed by their own goddess to have black skin, kept a religious police, and have a famous culture of xenophobia and slavery, and yet they're by far one of the most beloved and iconic races of the series.
But nobody says that the Dunmer or the drow are actually based on real-life dark-skinned cultures, unless you want to be offended for the sake of being offended.
Also, there's a lot more POC than African Americans. I doubt a South Indian or Han Chinese is really going to care. |
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Official: Diversity and Dungeons & Dragons
Topic Locked
