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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 14:58:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
This is why i choose to dislike everybody, crawl into my hole in the ground and pretend nobody else exists (while working on developing a fictional world that I would like to retreat into), because when you get right down to it, people are ust fundamentally unlikeable.
Good on you sleyvas.
This is really helpful to this discussion.  |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 17:04:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Yeah It's pretty prevalent in almost every single Edition that Drow are almost always explicably evil and that to Encounter a non-evil one was super rare - a narrative pushed by the industry and upheld significantly by the community.
This is only true if you cheery pick. I could post a list of all the times a book said something like "not all drow" are evil, but it would not matter right? Only the books that say "all drow are evil forever" count, right? Even going back to 1E "ALIGNMENT indicates the characteristic bent of the monster towards law of chaos, good or evil". Note that "characteristic bent" is not "super hard core evil all the time". "Drow are generally evil and chaotic in nature" again does not say "all drow are all evil 24/7"
Also drow were a playable race back in 1e, and again in 2E.
And, FR, does stand out as saying not all drow are evil. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 17:20:34
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It's pretty irrelevant to say "not all are evil", when your only non-evil drow culture amounts to <1% of the whole (Eilistraee, with her few thousands of followers as a lesser goddess), and when the rest are labeled as "unique, super special, super rare outcasts". It's also bad worldbuilding, quite frankly. Lolth's society falls apart as soon as you start looking into it, yet, with most of its people being utterly miserable, it went through 12k years with absolutely 0 significant changes. And after millennia of that misery, >90% of the drow are still "evil", because only an extremely narrow % has even thought of abandoning her in favor of literally anything else, or just simply lost faith, or became disilluded, or w/e. Maybe the early 2e portrayals, when Ed was involved (and Ed has only about 50% of drow under Lolth in his FR), tried to introduce more dissent, but the later sources surely don't.
I'm pretty sure I don't need to mention WotC's choices when they transitioned 3e->4e (and the grossly smearing misportrayal of Eilistraee that came with it, which *intentionally* made even the "good" drow no longer good, but merely self-righteous in being violent, warlike, crass, uncompassionate, abusive, *extremely* misandrist, while calling themselves "good"), or that infamous article about drow mothers getting orgasms when their kids eat each other in the womb, or 5e being so friggin' passive aggressive in regards of Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, etc... Even in 2e, they say "the light-skinned elves are the good guys and don't get cursed. Even though they genocided a whole nation of good Eilistraean dark elves, and exterminated A LOT of dark elves before with the Sundering. However, those pesky dark elves are bad because a group of them turned to dark deities, and must all get cursed by the good-guy, light-skinned god that makes their skin even darker to reflect their dark hearts" which is a VERY questionable narrative choice. Late 3e also added "oh, and don't forget that the dark skinned elves ALL have demon blood... except a handful, who now get their less dark skin (which they never had, because they were *born* drow) back, because they're good! The rest of the race, however, is irrelevant, because they're unwilling and to be cast down" Seriously... Thankfully, most D&D people aren't even aware of how f***ed up the evolution of the drow narrative is, or WotC would be under even stronger pressure now.
TL; DR WotC actively worked to push the narrative that all drow are evil, except a few who are "special" or whatever, nd actively tried to erase whatever form of nuance older authors tried to add to the race. They brought this situation on themselves, by making the worldbuilding around the drow more and more childish with every edition. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 26 Jun 2020 17:42:41 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 17:25:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Also, sleyvas, you can drop the “colored people” thing. It’s not the 50s anymore.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Also, sleyvas, you can drop the “colored people” thing. It’s not the 50s anymore.
I love how I'm singled out for this when I specifically stated I am trying to pick what I think is the most unambiguous term to use. I can't be held accountable if the term that people want to be referred to as changes every few years, and even at that, I see old terms still in use and new terms denigrated. I'm done with this thread.
keftiu, I agree with Slevyas it's a bit unfair to single him out about this, especially that I think he probably confused "colored people" with "people of color".
Quite possibly it was a mistake, but the term "colored people" has been considered a racial slur in the US for a looooooooong time since it was used in the Jim Crow era both in legal terms and on signage for segregation. Literally, the only people I have ever heard use the term were either extremely prejudiced and/or over 65. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 19:12:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
(snip) or that infamous article about drow mothers getting orgasms when their kids eat each other in the womb, (snip)
Oh ye dancing gods, please tell me that's an exaggeration of what the article says! 
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 19:16:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
(snip) or that infamous article about drow mothers getting orgasms when their kids eat each other in the womb, (snip)
Oh ye dancing gods, please tell me that's an exaggeration of what the article says!
Sadly, it literally is what the article says. This is from late 3e too, when WotC was doggedly going after any trace of nuance in the drow that wasn't Drizzt. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 26 Jun 2020 19:19:11 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 21:59:39
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Ye gods, how the hell did that get approved?
And why in the name of all that is holy did someone think that was a good idea to write down? It's like they were going for dark and edgy and instead landed at the border of "ewwwww" and "WTF, mate?" |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 22:11:01
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| I don't know, but the editing process of late 3e WotC was absolute crap, so I'm not surprised that this passed. The article also included other creepy stuff that I don't remember, all about how the drow are absolute monsters, without any hope of redemption whatsoever. Which suggests they just wanted to show how the drow are genetically evil, and "good" ones are genetic anomalies (while failing miserably at writing anything that wasn't total drivel), in line with the late 3e trend. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 22:15:53
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Ah, here's the article: https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/races/elf/drow1.shtml
This is the relevant part:
quote:
A notable difference between drow and their topside cousins lies in their fertility rate. Most elves have very low fertility rates, in keeping with their long lifespans. Drow mothers, in contrast, give birth as often as the more fertile races, such as humans and orcs. Their greater fertility reflects the crushing mortality rate among drow infants and youngsters. Drow females might give birth to ten times the number of babies than the females from other elven subraces do, but this does not mean that they end up with more adult children.
It is common for pregnant drow to carry twins or even triplets. Even in these cases, multiple births are rare, as the strongest of the fetuses feeds on its siblings in the womb. Pregnant drow can sometimes feel these mortal combats take place in their bellies. Such prenatal battles produce in their mothers a euphoric sensation, referred to in the Undercommon tongue as chad-zak. The feeling is infinitely stronger than that produced in the bedchamber or by any intoxicant. Without it, it is doubtful that drow women, selfish to the core, would ever deign to suffer the inconveniences of reproduction.
Chad-zak occurs up to four times per multiple pregnancy. It usually happens early in the third trimester. Mothers who experience repeated chad-zaks usually feel them in quick succession, once every one or two days. The final chad-zak indicates one fetus's successful slaying of its rivals. This process does not result in stillbirths; the slain are absorbed back into the mother's body.
Apparently, it's not just orgasms, but SUPER orgasms, and the only reason why drow women even think of having children. LOL... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 26 Jun 2020 22:20:12 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 22:36:57
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The article itself confirms what I was guessing:
quote:
Adventurers who want to maintain their good alignments must always think before they smite. Just because the vast majority of orcs or bugbears, for example, tend to be evil, does not guarantee that any particular orc or bugbear deserves to be mercilessly cut down in the name of truth and virtue.
With drow, such qualms do not apply. Virtually any individual in a drow community has already proven him- or herself a murderer - even small children.
Be warned, though: By the same token, almost all drow, including very young ones, are experienced killers and might boast shockingly high levels as warriors, rogues. or sorcerers. More than one adventurer has died an ignominious death after relaxing his guard with a drow child,
Drow wanderers might, in exceedingly rare circumstances, claim the mantle of goodness. Some individuals exile themselves from their murderous communities in search of a peaceful life out of Lolth's reach. In most cases, they'll be consumed with shame and self-loathing, unable to fully shake the savagery of their formative years. A supposedly good drow might not gut you in the night as you sleep. but he'll still constantly wrestle with powerful impulses toward dishonesty, selfishness, and treachery. The fact that surface-dwellers shun them at all costs makes life even more difficult for the infinitesimally tiny fraction of drow who sincerely seek redemption.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 23:14:04
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Interesting and distressing, Robin D. Laws author apparently also gets credit for 3.5 DMG II
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Laws |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2020 : 23:35:23
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| This "Chad-zak" is really revolting and disgusting. As someone who is working on a sandbox Drow city module, this is really NOT how I envision this race. D&D writers are infamous for letting their weird fetishes creep into the material, sometimes. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2020 : 00:07:09
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Robin Laws is one of the main authors for Pelgrane Press and runs a terribly popular tabletop design podcast. This feels weird edgy for him.
Not dismissing it at all, just like... huh. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2020 : 00:15:49
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quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Robin Laws is one of the main authors for Pelgrane Press and runs a terribly popular tabletop design podcast. This feels weird edgy for him.
Not dismissing it at all, just like... huh.
I don't know the author, nor I know Pelgrane Press, but they seem good from your words. I guess people can change their mind, especially given a decade or so.
Or perhaps Robin Laws was specifically tasked by WotC editors to write the drow like this. Like Smedman was tasked with portraying the Eilistraeans as REALLY offputting and hypocritical a**holes, and Eilistraee as a self-righteous version of her mother. Generally speaking, there was a concerted effort to erase any and all nuance from the drow (both in the portrayal of certain aspects and the removal of certain factions) and to highlight the concept of "genetically evil" as much as possible. And in not small part in the name of "muh Drizzt".
Robert's article might have simply been the result of that ridiculous mindset. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 Jun 2020 00:18:54 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2020 : 00:47:34
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What then of fiends? Devils and demons. Formed from the very stuff of evil, distilled, malign, inhuman. Arguably the truest and most irredeedable manifestation of evil to be seen in any D&D world.
And what of their cambion (half-fiend, half-human) children? And what of their tiefling (fiend-blooded, mostly human) descendants?
These seem "genetically evil" to me. Evil is the fundamental element of their existence, their function, their purpose.
It seems nobody takes any offense to giving offense to fiends, no matter how tolerant and enlightened and egalitarian they might be. One could be wary of offending fiends for other reasons (like fear of dying or fear of worse-than-dying).
But Fiend = Evil is a universally accepted constant (except by evil weirdo cultists, and except in Planescape: Torment *cough*cough*].
Drow and Orcs seem, to me, much the same thing in this regard. Perhaps a rare few epic members of these species have defied (or constantly struggle to defy) their instrinsically evil natures, this is cool, it's part of what once made D&D excellent.
The fact that they have certain skin colours or appearances aren't relevant to me. They are not compared to humans regardless of any apparent similarities in skin pigments - they are compared with fiends, devils, demons, and other inhumanly evil monsters. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 27 Jun 2020 00:50:50 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2020 : 01:32:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Robin Laws is one of the main authors for Pelgrane Press and runs a terribly popular tabletop design podcast. This feels weird edgy for him.
Not dismissing it at all, just like... huh.
I don't know the author, nor I know Pelgrane Press, but they seem good from your words. I guess people can change their mind, especially given a decade or so.
Or perhaps Robin Laws was specifically tasked by WotC editors to write the drow like this. Like Smedman was tasked with portraying the Eilistraeans as REALLY offputting and hypocritical a**holes, and Eilistraee as a self-righteous version of her mother. Generally speaking, there was a concerted effort to erase any and all nuance from the drow (both in the portrayal of certain aspects and the removal of certain factions) and to highlight the concept of "genetically evil" as much as possible. And in not small part in the name of "muh Drizzt".
Robert's article might have simply been the result of that ridiculous mindset.
It could have also been that some editor decided to punch it up a bit and added that part. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2020 : 01:41:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
What then of fiends? Devils and demons. Formed from the very stuff of evil, distilled, malign, inhuman. Arguably the truest and most irredeedable manifestation of evil to be seen in any D&D world.
And what of their cambion (half-fiend, half-human) children? And what of their tiefling (fiend-blooded, mostly human) descendants?
These seem "genetically evil" to me. Evil is the fundamental element of their existence, their function, their purpose.
It seems nobody takes any offense to giving offense to fiends, no matter how tolerant and enlightened and egalitarian they might be. One could be wary of offending fiends for other reasons (like fear of dying or fear of worse-than-dying).
But Fiend = Evil is a universally accepted constant (except by evil weirdo cultists, and except in Planescape: Torment *cough*cough*].
I think it's because fiends (and their holy counterparts) are not subject to the nature vs. nurture gig the way mortal races are. You don't have pregnant fiends giving birth to little baby fiends; they and the other immortal planar types come into existence fully formed and aware, and intrinsically tied to a place where belief/alignment has very real physical effects. They are, essentially, the embodiment of the planes they come from.
Unlike mortals, they don't pick an alignment -- they are created by their alignment.
(It's part of the reason planar types don't interest me: this member of this fiendish race is the same as that member of the same race. It's only when they become something unique, something other than "X-type planar #1138" that they become worth paying attention to.) |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2020 : 02:13:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Drow and Orcs seem, to me, much the same thing in this regard. Perhaps a rare few epic members of these species have defied (or constantly struggle to defy) their instrinsically evil natures, this is cool, it's part of what once made D&D excellent.
It's part of what holds D&D back IMHO. Treating the concept of evil/good as some kind of undefined blobs of actions, without even considering the nuances and contexts there are to certain actions, that evil and good are nothing but a collection of human traits and therefore using them as main traits is an immature perspective. All of this holds D&D back, story-wise. Wtf even is an "intrinsically evil" INTELLIGENT being? Someone who is intrinsically sadist? Someone who is pereptually and intrinsically thirsting for blood? Narrative is about choices, conflict, and consequences; intrinsic alignment brings no opportunity for conflict or choices that can't be achieved in other ways that also open up many other chances for conflict (which the intrinsic alignment instead closes). For example, the inner conflict can be also had in a character that was culturally/socially conditioned. However, cultural/social conditioning also opens the doors to other kinds of conflict and story possibilities (resistance movements, splinter cultures, conflicts between different cultures, etc... for example. Or a story about how that society came to happen--possibly a well-crafted one, that doesn't just handwave all the needed details, unlike the history of the drow does in the post crown wars years). Meanhwile, intrisic alignment only offers inner conflict in a handful selected cases (and it diminishes the value of that choice, because the character would have to be born "special" in order to even be able to start choosing, so it's not even their merit/fault, they just happened to be like that). Maybe it can offer the plot hook of a paladin-type being conflicted about killing a member of a race, but cultural conditioning of a race also offers that. Intrinsical alignment is just an inferior narrative device. It's not well regarded, and for good reasons.
Also, even in canon, it's not like that, nor it has ever been. Heck, that I know, even the very first drow appearance painted the commoners as leaning more towards neutrality. Ed himself never had the drow be like this, and he created Eilistraee for his own realms as an actually relevant faction. Also, you know, the history of the drow, with a whole Eilistraean nation existing even before Lolth and being genocided--by the elves.
As for Orcs, same thing. You have the ones in Thesk, the Ondonti of Eldath, even the Many Arrows orcs, though more recent, lived at peace with the Silver Marches for the equivalent of 2 human lifespans.
To me, it seems that the designers of old at least tried to add some nuance, and that--had that trend continued--we would have much more interesting and nuanced portrayals now. The problems showed up when WotC started to massively underplay all of that, and continued in an-ever escalating campaign, until they threw ALL the nuance out of the window in favor of stuff like "hurr, genetic evil, hurr" or "muh Drizzt", and came up with ridiculous trash like "chad-zak". Now they're paying by having to eat back everything and restore everything they took away, but even that won't be enough, due to their past stupidity.
quote:
The fact that they have certain skin colours or appearances aren't relevant to me. They are not compared to humans regardless of any apparent similarities in skin pigments - they are compared with fiends, devils, demons, and other inhumanly evil monsters.
That's not the point, but others have already explained this. It's not that we associate drow with black people or whatever. It's that there are chances that a black person coming to D&D, and seeing that the only dark-skinned elves are the unredeemably evil ones, will feel excluded by the game, or won't think well of the game. Inclusivity is about making everyone feel welcomed and represented in the game, which is why stereotypes like this are problematic. It's NOT about the idea that people might actually associate the drow to black people. That's a strawman.
In any case, for a more expansive explanation, aside from being damn dated worldbuilding, it has 2 problems.
1)It lends itself to the colonialist-like mindset implicit (not intentionally, mind you) in D&D, which comes from building a RPG on a Wargame. Being an adapted wargame, it's based on the assumption that the PCs will have a ridiculously high bodycount even by low levels, because the rules focus so much on combat that killing stuff is nearly always an answer. How to justify that in-game? An easy answer to that problem is coming up with cannon fodder to throw at the players without having them feel morally challenged by killing stuff, while also adding some kind of story, and that's where the "inherently evil races" that you can kill without regret come up.
2)This means dehumanized humanoid races, which is the exact same thing that was done with folks who were genocided or enslaved. They were labeled as evil, inferior, what you have--it was morally right to harm them. Now, when your "dehumanized evil races" start showing the traits associated with those folks, when your only dehumanized elf race is the dark skinned one, when things are literally like this:
"the light-skinned elves are the good guys and don't get cursed. Even though they genocided a whole nation of good Eilistraean dark elves, and exterminated A LOT of dark elves before with the Sundering. However, those pesky dark elves are bad because a group of them turned to dark deities, and must all get cursed by the good-guy, light-skinned god that makes their skin even darker to reflect their dark hearts"
Then the hints to actual humans being dehumanized become way too much, and we have the issues that I described before, when talking about inclusivity.
Besides, lets not just pretend that fantasy races aren't simply reskinned humans. It's just that certain human traits are exaggerated in those races. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 Jun 2020 02:41:22 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2020 : 02:56:27
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For the drow, they don't even have to throw all the lore out of the window to implement a change. They could start with making Eilistraee's culture actually relevant in terms of numbers (at very least give her Ed's numbers, at 22% of the drow), and painting the commoners as mostly nutral, introducinng dissent and disillusion towards Lolth (and I mean, commoners have been totally miserable for millennia), even some resistance. They could un-retcon Vhaeraun and bring him back to be his actual self, and take Ed's lore about his stance becoming more neutral and establish other settlements on the surface. Have Bregan d'Aerthe do something similar (I mean, they already are, but I mean something open to more than operatives). And more of that.
However, I fear they'll just have Drizzt&friends pull off some weird shenanigans and magically convince half of the drow to stop being evil, and to come create a new settlement on the surface. With 0 acknowledgement of the other drow cultures that have been working towards that goal for millennia, that have been there for 30 years, like RAS always does. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2020 : 03:30:40
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You know, one of the reasons I like Liriel Baenre far more than Drizzt is because we see her progression towards rejecting drow society. She was different from her kin from an early age, like Drizzt, but unlike Drizzt, she didn't entirely reject drow society -- she tried to meet Menzoberranzan on her own terms, and only left when she learned there was more to the world. But even then, she still had a long way to go before rejecting drow society. We see the steps on her journey to becoming a good drow.
Drizzt, on the other hand, just popped out entirely different. His story arc -- starting off as the exact opposite and leaving because of that, without growing into something different -- just doesn't grab me.
Liriel's journey, I think showed us a lot more of drow society, and her story gives drow society a lot more depth than any of the other drow fiction we've seen. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Jun 2020 03:31:59 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2020 : 03:50:45
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blackface..... tsk tsk. people so offended by makeup....
I think everyone prefers Liriel over Drizzt in terms of that Wooly. She did have more of aride that Drizzt, unless of course you read drizzt novels for the combat scenes.... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2020 : 04:03:45
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
blackface..... tsk tsk. people so offended by makeup....
"People shouldn't be offended by blackface" is an astonishingly tone-deaf statement and you should be ashamed for making it. It's not just "makeup," it's a centuries-long practice that dehumanizes of a group already oppressed by our society by turning them into a punchline for those keeping them down to enjoy. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2020 : 04:32:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
What then of fiends? Devils and demons. Formed from the very stuff of evil, distilled, malign, inhuman. Arguably the truest and most irredeedable manifestation of evil to be seen in any D&D world.
And what of their cambion (half-fiend, half-human) children? And what of their tiefling (fiend-blooded, mostly human) descendants?
These seem "genetically evil" to me. Evil is the fundamental element of their existence, their function, their purpose.
It seems nobody takes any offense to giving offense to fiends, no matter how tolerant and enlightened and egalitarian they might be. One could be wary of offending fiends for other reasons (like fear of dying or fear of worse-than-dying).
But Fiend = Evil is a universally accepted constant (except by evil weirdo cultists, and except in Planescape: Torment *cough*cough*].
Drow and Orcs seem, to me, much the same thing in this regard. Perhaps a rare few epic members of these species have defied (or constantly struggle to defy) their instrinsically evil natures, this is cool, it's part of what once made D&D excellent.
The fact that they have certain skin colours or appearances aren't relevant to me. They are not compared to humans regardless of any apparent similarities in skin pigments - they are compared with fiends, devils, demons, and other inhumanly evil monsters.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think it's because fiends (and their holy counterparts) are not subject to the nature vs. nurture gig the way mortal races are. You don't have pregnant fiends giving birth to little baby fiends; they and the other immortal planar types come into existence fully formed and aware, and intrinsically tied to a place where belief/alignment has very real physical effects. They are, essentially, the embodiment of the planes they come from.
Unlike mortals, they don't pick an alignment -- they are created by their alignment.
(It's part of the reason planar types don't interest me: this member of this fiendish race is the same as that member of the same race. It's only when they become something unique, something other than "X-type planar #1138" that they become worth paying attention to.)
Well with Fiends (and Celestials and etc) it was always a bit complicated, with authors, since 2E, being for these reason undecided whenever they can reproduce sexually, and produce their kind (succubi are an example).
With pure fiends though, it seems Outer Plane Outsiders infants souls/essences are made out of the essences of their parents, their souls not even being from the Positive Energy Plane (specifically the "Bastion Of Broken Souls" in Third edition) like mortal souls in most versions.
Indeed, the "Bastion Of Broken Souls" of the same name, states tampering with unborn souls, is an immense multiversal cosmic crime, and is actively worked against as seen with Desayeus (who was imprisoned 7 hours after starting to tamper with unborn souls):
https://mimir.planewalker.com/encyclopedia/desayeus
There even though other versions about this, that do state basically fiends that are born as babies, start as unaligned - the 4E Glasya article, basically stated Glasya, despite who her father is, was born innocent, and capable of being good, evil chaotic or lawful. It's a combination of Asmodeus' and Bensozia's horrible parenting (ie both essentially having created her as their weapon/ace in sleeve, with most of Bensozia of Glasya, upbringing being that of in the art of killing, seduction, and such from the youngest age, just to possibly allow her to finally kill Asmodeus, and ultimately her own choices. It being framed about a person coming from a pathological family turning out bad, rather than being "born" evil, despite her dad being pretty much Satan.
(Especially in 4E, were Asmodeus' backstory parallels that of Lucifer, his symbol is even based on the real life Seal of Lucifer).
Suggesting a similar situation, with other fiendish children.
The Outer Planes, are also stated to directly influence their inhabitants alignment and personality (and very soul), if a mortals stay in one to long, they are quite probable to move towards the plane's alignment. Imagine being in such place from birth and through formative, when one's personality is formed.
There is of course also the fact even good or neutral captured souls, are most of the time corrupted in the Lower Planes through various means. And the fact the vast majority of fiends are mortals who got were they got due to very bad life choices, and others formed from the planes and concepts of alignment directly, with an adult, pre-programmed personality.
Cambions, Alu-Fiends and other Half-Fiends are more complicated, but they are very often brought up by their fiendish parent, most often in Lower Planes (Alu-Fiends I think pretty much universally - again being brought up from start up in a place that influences one's mind and very soul from birth) and/or rejected by society.
A very good story on two half-fiends, basically becoming evil due to how horrifically society treated them, is explored in Icewind Dale II with Isair and Madae.
But in short - as Wooly stated, no, the fiends situation is not the same as with Drow and Orcs. |
Edited by - Baltas on 27 Jun 2020 07:19:54 |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2020 : 18:43:42
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| Yeah, really stupid to say "this could offend MILLIONS of our viewers around the world, maybe we shouldn't do it." |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2020 : 19:06:01
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I used to think only young idiotic privileged white boys were okay with blackface, mostly because they are idiots. Nice to see I can remove the young from my statement.
Stupid is tsking people offended by something that belittles their culture and is a form of racism. Stupid is not understanding why it's offensive because it's never offended you personally. Stupid is not doing any kind of reading about history in America, including the history that hasn't been included in your education because white folks in Texas approve history books for the entire national public education system. Stupid is receiving additional facts about how all of this is racist bullshit and still calling those offended stupid.
I was considering taking a short break from the forums because of all this heavy discussion on the subject and realizing that there are people in the Candlekeep forums that are not as enlightened as I thought most Forgotten Realms fans were. But I'm going to stay here. I'm going to keep posting about how prejudice and racism is bad and argue with those that bringing diversity to the game isn't needed because they don't see any problems with it since they are cis white boys that have never been effected by racism. I'm sticking around, but I'm kinda hoping that those that can't accept they are on the wrong side of this debate, world history, and morality will leave. After nine pages of discussion the topic, if you can't see what the problem is, you're part of the problem. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
238 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2020 : 19:52:30
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| It is really interesting how the people who clamour for tolerance have absolutely no tolerance for people with different opinions or viewpoints. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2020 : 20:03:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yeah, really stupid to say "this could offend MILLIONS of our viewers around the world, maybe we shouldn't do it."
There are shows everyday that offend millions of people. Be it due to race, sexuality, religion, etc. By this logic we would never be able to have any narratives ever because someone somewhere will be offended. Millions were NOT complaining about this episode. Netflix saw an actor with black make up and just assumed it was bad and didn't want to have to deal with flack from the mob because to hell with context. |
Edited by - Caolin on 27 Jun 2020 20:05:00 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2020 : 22:32:13
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
It is really interesting how the people who clamour for tolerance have absolutely no tolerance for people with different opinions or viewpoints.
I have tolerance for everything but hatred and bigotry. If you are defending things that support discrimination, or racism, even racism that was unintentional when written, then yes, I have no tolerance for you. I'm a pacifist too, but I have one loophole: I'll punch Nazis every time I see them.
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
There are shows everyday that offend millions of people. Be it due to race, sexuality, religion, etc. By this logic we would never be able to have any narratives ever because someone somewhere will be offended. Millions were NOT complaining about this episode. Netflix saw an actor with black make up and just assumed it was bad and didn't want to have to deal with flack from the mob because to hell with context.
Just because the show is made doesn't mean we should accept it. And any narrative that is told that offends a person's culture or believe is not a story, it's f*cking propaganda.
Millions WERE complaining about this, you just never heard them. Wizards of the Coast did, and now they are making the change. If you don't like it (which has become apparent over the last nine pages), you can stop buying it. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Official: Diversity and Dungeons & Dragons
Topic Locked
