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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Jul 2020 : 22:21:25
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Well, I meant Cyric as portrayed in Shadowdale, and the potential route he could become evil in a better written way, rather than how he was presented in later novels.
But I understand you could also not like that, and I understand it, to be clear. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2020 : 10:48:19
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I'm still working on an alternative to the Time of Troubles that is the same but different.
The gods dont actually walk the earth, because gods are metaphysical beings with no direct interaction to the material plane allowed beyond that which mortals ask for.
So magic does go awry for other reasons (a calishite pasha reattempting Karsus' bid for godhood using Myrjala Darkeyes and so breaks the weave once again).
At some point in time one of the mortals pretending to be a god gets killed near Castle Kilgrave by the Celestial stairway and the Zhentarim get the idea to spread that Mystra is dead. This fake news is spread by cloak agencies and word of mouth and everyone starts to believe it.
The Harpers and other goodly aligned agencies fight back by pouncing on the news that someone pretending to be Bane died in the attack on Shadowdale.
With all the chaos going on regular people actually believe the fake news, even Bane and Mystra's own clergy (who can't replenish their spells because the Weave has gone nuts) begin to believe it and any attempt to contact divine proxies also fails.
Now the heroes Kelemvor, Cyric, Adon, Midnight, happen to be at Castle Kilgrave, events can even work as they did in the novel, except that they are being manipulated by mortals posing as gods rather than actual gods. They get chased to Shadowdale by mercs from Arabel and fight Bane imposter and a rift opens and swallows Elminster etc.
In the end what i'm working toward is that everyone believes Mystra and Bane and Myrkul and Bhaal are dead. Because deities are powered and shaped by belief and because no one worships those deities anymore because they all know they are dead, those gods are for all intents and purposes dead. A few diehard worshippers persist to keep them going as minor deities but that is all (people can even believe other gods provide the spells if they wish it doesnt matter because no one truly knows what is happening with the gods - ask Ed).
The adventures of Midnight, Kelemvor, Cyric, etc are published by a novelist and made famous (i found a suitable one in Cormyr i think). There is even talk of the heroes becoming gods after a climactic battle in Waterdeep and so people believe that Kelemvor becomes the new god of the dead, Midnight replaces Mystra, and Cyric becomes the god of Strife and Murder.
For Cyric however, i think i shall have the story twisted. He is not evil, he killed only when he had to, and in Shadowdale he was loyal to his friends. The Tantras novel mentions that there were Zhentarim spies still in Shadowdale, and Mourngrym was expecting a few surviving Zhent soldiers to try and attack the Twisted Tower in the aftermath as a revenge.
So Cyric tries to get Midnight and Adon out of jail, he might even slay one of the guards if he has to, but the majority of the murders are made by Zhents trying to get revenge for the failed attack (Elminster is dead, they will never get a better chance). But Cyric is the one that gets the blame (by Shadowdale and the Zhents)
The Zhentarim appropriate Cyric as their new god because he is from Zhentil Keep and they can make up whatever history they like and basically replace Bane with Cyric and keep control of his new church for their own power. The madness thing with Cyric is just due to them trying to merge together a number of dogmas to create their own super church and gain more power, which results in a horrible mash of worshippers that can't agree on anything and it starts to disintegrate into chaos and fighting until the only people that truly believe in Cyric are the nutters, so he becomes the god of nutters). Cyric himself is sending visions to his followers to try and get them to do things but nutters misinterpret things and it all ends up going horrible wrong and cue a big religious cleansing.
Its a work in progress, but i'm going to use it to show how gods shape belief and how belief shapes gods in a cyclical arrangement, rather than just gods control all, yay uber gods, gods rule of kewl. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2020 : 12:43:41
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Tantras (1358)
Bhaal was in Waterdeep
Shadowdale
Meltan Elventree, slain in the battle for Shadowdale, son of Neldock Elventree (he has another son who survived)
Forester, lived in Shadowdale his whole life, burly fighter, stringy black hair
Rhaymon, Cleric of Lathander
Bertil Ulphor, slain in the battle of Shadowdale, heavy man, not normally trusted with weapons (lackwit perhaps???), brother of Ulman Ulphor
Thurbal, captain of Arms, Warden of Shadowdale, defends Midnight and Adon during their trial over the death of Elminster
Midnight and Adon put on trial for the murder of Elminster
Irak Dontaele, guard of Shadowdale
Manxtrum, stablemaster at the Twisted Tower of Ashaba.
Segert, guard in the Twisted Tower of Ashaba, trainee, slain by Cyric rescuing Midnight
Marcreg, guard in the Twisted Tower of Ashaba, old, grey moustache, slain by Cyric rescuing Midnight
Forester, slain by Cyric rescuing Midnight
Gaeus Thorn, a unique item, those it injures are placed under a powerful suggestion to obey whoever gives them orders (effective when used as a blowdart). Cyric bought it on the black market, previously owned by an alchemist in Shadowdale (who died in the Battle of Shadowdale). Those injured by the thorn kill themselves (happily) once they have completed the orders given to them.
Lhaeo gave Midnight an orb that shatters near magically powerful objects (use it to find the Tablets of Fate), and the Mists of Rapture a glass vial that can be used to incapacitate lots of people (a gas weapon???)
Calliope, a maid in the Twisted Tower of Ashaba
Kelemvor and Hunters
Yarbro, guard of Shadowdale. Dislikes Kelemvor, diligent and zealous.
Terrol Uthor, late thirties, short, powerfully built, blue-grey eyes, thick black hair slicked black, a veteran of many battles with the drow and steeped in the ancient lore of the elven clans that once claimed Shadowdale. Sent with Kelemvor to hunt Cyric, Midnight, and Adon.
Gurn Bestil, woodsman, late fifties, white hair. His son died in the Battle of Shadowdale.
Kohren, priest of Lathander, tall, dark hair with a widows peak.
Lanx, priest of Lathander, moderate build, thin, curly blonde hair, dull brown eyes.
Cabal, guard in Shadowdale, 40, grey beard, thick white eyebrows, archer and swordsman
Bursus, guard in Shadowdale, tired, jet black eyes, deeply tanned skin, archer and swordsman
Jorah, guard in Shadowdale, slender build, wild auburn hair, archer and swordsman.
Mikkel and Carella, unknown last names, could be brothers, rugged and well toned, shaved heads. Mikkel wears a sparkling prism from his right ear.
River Ashaba
Mosquitos are common
Nereids in the river (their souls are said to be kept in their shawls).
Daggerdale
The Battle for Shadowdale drove the surviving Zhentilar into Daggerdale.
Fzoul ended up in Daggerdale
Myrkul met Fzoul in Daggerdale.
Bane possesses Fzoul.
Zhentil Keep
Dier Ashlin, guard at the Dark Temple of Bane
Manshoon gone into hiding when Bane appeared
Sememmon vanished after the Battle of Shadowdale.
People felt Bane led them into a trap in Shadowdale and then abandoned them, many viewed Bane as weak.
Zhentil Keep still has spies in Shadowdale
Tarana Lyr, sorceress, wears the ebon robes of Bane’s dark order (an order of wizards in the Church of Bane???), blond hair, long shapely legs, deep blue eyes. Mentally unstable, likes taking risks.
Willingale, Zhent operative in Harrowdale, recalled to fight in Scardale
Hepton, commander in Zhentilar
Windling, commander from Citadel of the Raven
Scardale
Knopf (red hair and beard), Cadeo, Frost, Zhentilar soldiers in Scardale. Enjoy gambling
Zhentil Keep’s garrision in Scardale was limited to 12 Zhentilar soldiers.
Jhembryn Durrock, demands to be called Lord Durrock. Commander of Zhentil Keep garrison in Scardale. Skin seared black as severe burns cover much of his face. Assassin. Wears a black visored helment as he scares the children (and adults) of Scardale. Can summon a nightmare using a black pendant in the shape of a horse with glowing red eyes.
3 other assassins in the garrison (one called Varro, uses a scythe, Sejanus uses a bolas). Crimson stained symbol of Bane on their chests.
Zhentil Keep troops attack the other garrisons
Varden, violet clothes trimmed with gold mesh, yellow boots, cape with a crimson lining, golden hair. A thief and merchant allied with the Sembian garrison.
Gratus, a thief and associate of Varden. A merchant who sells boots also allied with the Sembian garrison. Gratus was a former spymaster for Lashan.
Dowie, magic user. Slain when he case a light spell
Rumours are the Lashan of Scardale built many tunnels beneath Scardale Town. Hall of records has a tunnel that connects to secret complex and a butchers shop.
Barth, leader of Sembian resistance. Strong build, curly black hair, moustache.
Wulston, tall, dark haired, pale complexion, soldier from hillsfar garrison
Tymon, dark haired, craggy nose broken several times, soldier from hillsfar garrison.
Queen of the Night, a Zhentarim slave ship, black wood, used to smuggle illegal cargoes and avoid taxation. Galley master is called Otto, cruel man likes torturing slaves. Bjorn the One Eyed a wildman and slave on the galley (blonde hair)
The Fatted Calf, a tavern with escorts. Liane (fiance of Varden) escorts at the bar, her father owns the
tavern
The Argent, a zhentish trireme (slave galley)
Dalzhel, zhentilar soldier, officer, bushy black beard.
Kelemvor
Superior vision due to the curse
Other Lore
Shaeroon’s Scimitar, a spell that conjures a flaming scimitar that follows a target
Holding both hands side by side, palms facing up, thumbs stretched as far apart as possible, was almost universally accepted as a sign of peaceful intentions. By showing this sign and saying, "There is room for all," a cleric could expect to gain admittance to most temples quite easily.
Samirson Yarth, an assassin in Urmlaspyr, no intended victim had ever escaped, believed to have been blessed by Bhaal
Bane and Myrkul slew all the assassins (worshippers of Bhaal)
Smeds, a high ranking city official in Urmlaspyr, his wife is having an affair with a troubadour (circus performer???) he paid Samirson Yarth to kill the troubadour.
Dileen Shurlef, an assassin in Waterdeep serving as Bhaal’s servant.
Inhabitants of Gehenna know one of the tablets can be accessed through the City of the Dead in Waterdeep.
Company of the Scorpions
Zhentilar troops
Tyzack the leader, coward, once raided a Temple of Bane north of Scardale many years ago (when the Zhentarim refused to make him a priest of Bane)
Ken, Croxton, Eccles, Praxis (sandy haired, steel grey eyes), Slater (woman, shaved eyebrows, brown
hair cut short), all members of the company
Ren, wiry, golden haired, good with a blade, second in command
Searching for an artefact rumoured to be in Haptooth Hill
Tantras
City government got paid lots of money by Tormites flocking to the city (mostly from the Church of Torm) because Torm lived here. Soon the government asked other churches to pay the same amount of taxes. Those that couldnt pay had their buildings sold.
Faulkner, port guard
Sian, port guard
Torm appeared in Tantras, made Tantras the city of eternal light (no night time)
Encompassed by a wall
A series of towers line the northern ridge where the Citadel of Tantras is located
Temple of Torm in the north section of the city
North section of the city is on an incline leading up to the ridge where the Citadel of Tantras guards.
Bell tower in the south of the city near to a military complex and a shrine of Mystra.
Hlintar emptied by a storm that unearthed thousands of old graves and brought the skeletons to life.
Rumours that Zhentil Keep might attack Tantras (from Scardale)
Lazy Moon Inn, simple large tap room, kitchen, and store room on the ground floor. Run by Faress
Government buildings on Hillier Way
Quillian Dencery, 16 years old, tends to the poor with his mother, works for the government as a guide on occasion. His father died in a war (mother got a pension)
Waukeen, goddess of Trade, Liberty’s Maiden. Temple in the market square (became a butchers shop during ToT
Loyan Trey, butcher in the south end of town.
Beardmere’s, a butchers shop in the north end of town by the market square (was a temple to Waukeen)
Dark Harvest Festhall, worshippers of Bhaal meet in the gaming rooms every night. In the south end of town. City government leaves it untouched because their spies get information here
Temple of Sune burned to the ground a few weeks ago.
Curran Inn, known as the Wagging Tongue, a good place for information
Aylen Attricus, supposedly one of the founders of Tantrus, he had the bell tower built. Died a century ago, supposed to be a thousand years old. Bell magically enchanted to prevent it from tolling unless certain conditions are met.
Tower of Aylen Attricus, grey obelisk with circular stairs inside and bell at the top. Silence spell on the tower.
Morgan Lisemore, commander of Tantras garrison. Tall sandy haired man, 40-50 years old
Inscription on Belltower. This bell was created to throw a shield of impenetrable mystical force over the city I helped to found. To protect my fairest creation from great harm. Once, my beloved ally, the sorceress Cytheria, rang the bell and saved the city from the dire magics of a wizard I battled nearby. It took great courage to stay and protect our home, though she would have preferred to fight by my side. Now, only by the hand of a woman with power and heart such as my wife had, and only in the greatest time of need, will this bell ever sound again.
Linal Alprin, blonde brown beard immaculately trimmed, monobrow, harbour master. Lives on the north side of town. Married to Moira Alprin (plain, dark haired, unable to have children)
Messina’s Elegant Boutique, stand in the market square, sells hats.
Manacom, cleric, friend of Linal Alprin, disappeared a few days ago. Linal tried to find what happened and was nearly beaten to death by a gang. The city guard are not interested in finding him and others have disappeared. Zealous Tormite council attempting to purge all non Tormites from the city. Sunites fled, Oghmanites slain. Waukeenites imprisoned and tortured to death
Sabinus, smuggler, ties to the city government and Church of Torm, frequents the Dark Harvest. Links to the Zhentarim
Dunn Tenwealth, a city official, ordered the disappearances of other priests and the closing down of other churches (not Torm’s), platinum hair, high priest of Torm. In charge of the religious purging.
Temple of Torm, the diamond corridors begin at the centre of the temple and connect to every chamber, meant to act as a maze that few can travel without becoming lost.
Bane transferred himself into a 50 ft tall obsidian statue that was filled with the souls of Bhaal’s assassins.
12 members of Tantras’ ruling council. Dunn Tenwealth was one member.
The Citadel and Temple of Torm destroyed by the energy released from Bane and Torm’s death, leaving only a crater.
Fire Knives
Murdered the occupants of Castle Dembling, including Lord Dembling and his family and servants (located on the Dragon Coast perhaps???)
Fire Knives led by Roderick Tem, dark eyed, pug nosed
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2020 : 13:29:00
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Enjoyed this novel a lot less.
Roughly two thirds of the novel were dedicated to getting to Tantras (making the title somewhat misleading).
I noticed a tendency (continued from the first novel) to somewhat generalise groups and organisations into a single group. So in Shadowdale it started with the intimation that all thieves were involved in "The Thieves Guild" which was based in Zhentil Keep. Now that continues with all assassins worshipping Bhaal (and only Bhaal presumably).
I found some interesting bits for development. For instance the turning to evil of all of Torm's upper clergy who also seemed to have taken complete control of the city's government. Sounds like a perfect example of a Torm/Bane heresy that i will look to developing further later.
Aylen Attricus' bell tower was more of the creeping deus ex machina problem, that presumably exists only because the writer needed a way to stop the whole city being destroyed.
Cyric's complete personality rewrite was jarring. Before he was misunderstood, and only ruthless when he needed to be, but who found friends and a reason to be good. Now he is a merciless killer with no conscience or loyalty at all that cares only for power. I would have preferred a gradual change where Cyric was upset at being blamed for the murders the Zhentil Keep agents carried out in Shadowdale (these agents were mentioned as existing but not used bizarrely). Then after his capture he is forced to survive and be ruthless about it which is believable. At a final meeting in Tantras it would have made more sense if the heroes jumped to conclusions assuming Cyric was evil when all he was doing was trying to get back to them and help them, that would have made him abandon all notions of friendship and embrace evil.
Kelemvor is a miserable arse even after his curse is removed (that shouldnt have happened so easy and Bane should have betrayed him).
Not as much interesting lore in this book, and a tendency to follow other books in that characters are introduced with some detail only so that they can be killed and the reader will at least know their name. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2020 : 13:38:13
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That's what you get when three different authors write a trilogy.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Duneth Despana
Learned Scribe
Belgium
273 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2020 : 21:03:48
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This looks promising! But the link doesn't work... quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Slightly related, I found the Novel Index that was started on the WoTC boards. A lot of it wasn't indexed it seems like, and only the basic things in the first post, but it's something for a couple of locations and characters.
https://web.archive.org/web/20090430101828/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1062902
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« There is no overriding « epic » in the Realms, but rather a large number of stories, adventures, and encounters going on all the time. [...]. Each creative mind adds to the base, creating, defining, and making their contribution to the rich diversity of the Realms. [...]. But Ed built the stage upon which all the plays are presented. Thanks Ed. » -FR Comic no.1
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2020 : 21:35:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Duneth Despana
This looks promising! But the link doesn't work... quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Slightly related, I found the Novel Index that was started on the WoTC boards. A lot of it wasn't indexed it seems like, and only the basic things in the first post, but it's something for a couple of locations and characters.
https://web.archive.org/web/20090430101828/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1062902
Copy and paste the entire link, clicking on it looks for gleemax.com, ignoring the web.archive.org part of the url. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2020 : 13:15:38
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The Godsbane is visibly inspired the Stormbringer, Mourneblade, and other forms of the the Black Blade, from Moorcock's works:
https://stormbringer.fandom.com/wiki/Stormbringer
https://stormbringer.fandom.com/wiki/Black_Sword
Curiously, Moorcock's mythology, aside from being a major inspiration fir D&D, was part of D&D lore in canon (the Melnibonean Mythos part in the original Deities and Demigods book), and even several Forgotten Realms deities have origins from there, like the Elemental Lords (Akadi - Misha, Grumbar - Grome, Istishia - Straasha, Kossuth - Kakatal), or in part the idea of Animal Lords. (if Ed did intend to change the names and the Elemental Lords).
There was another sword similar to Godsbane (if via also being based on Strombringer) in D&D, and as a result Forgotten Realms - Blackrazor:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Blackrazor
In 5E, it's mentioned also the Raven Queen made several weapons like Blackrazor, so it could tie to Godsbane.
With Mask, about his gender identity, he is mentioned to be somewhat malleable in terms gender, with his constantly changing form, he also changes sex as often as his race/species.
A bit of a spoiler, but it's even shown in a latter novel "Crucible: Trial of Cyric the Mad", Mask takes form of several beings, including gods and goddesses, and stated he is worshiped under many names - there it's shown he is Diancastra, and implied that he is also Kali:
https://books.google.pl/books?id=YYbg2WDddBoC&pg=PT157&lpg=PT157&ots=wK2hlnvjtE&dq=crucible+diancastra&output=html_text&redir_esc=y
I also mention this, as "Kali-Mask", would fit better with Godsbane's characterization. |
Edited by - Baltas on 09 Jul 2020 13:36:49 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2020 : 14:14:18
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| I agree the sword being Mask or an avatar of Mask in TOT is a huge retcon. They had no real game plan for the story, much like new Star Wars trilogy or GoT season 8 or any number of modern disasters where creative control was designed by committee. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2020 : 14:30:16
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Well, I don't think the revelation about Mask's true name being Lessinor, contradicts him also having aspects as Kali and Diancatra - both are established entities - Kali being strongly implied to be the goddess of Murder from the The Complete Book of Necromancers (which is part of the Realms lore), and Diancastra is a part of D&D lore, with it being possible she isn't present in the Realms, or was subsumed by Mask.
One could argue Shar is though more similar to Kali in concept, especially with how Ed envisions her.
Mask was mentioned to exist before Time of Troubles, as he is mention in 1E Realms (before ToT, if not much). He also was an Intermediate Deity, suggesting he had some time to build his power, so I would guess Mask existed for at least 100 years prior to it.
(And you can create a character that is a priest of Mask/Demarch of Mask in Icewind Dale II, which takes place in 1310 DR, with the games being stated as canon, unless other materials contradict them, so I don't know how to treat it in terms of canonicity though)
Mask also had a "millennia-old debt" to Shar, suggesting he existed for at least a 1000 years in some form. (or even 2000 or more, depending on how you understand "millennia").
Shar is also described as Mask's "mother", and it's revealed he is (or as of now was) her servant/herald, and she essentially absorbs him, suggesting he might have indeed started as her aspect, or mortal she empowered.
Again, Shar is a bit different in Alternate Forgotten Realms, but I guess Mask could be a servant she created, or empowered.
[EDIT]
I wonder though if you would be interested in relating Godsbane to Blackrazor, as one of the weapons created by the Raven Queen, although I'm not sure if you would want to include her.
(Indeed, for all we know, Godsbane might be or originally intended to be Blackrazor, as Cyric named the sword as Godsbane, if I remember right...) |
Edited by - Baltas on 09 Jul 2020 15:29:38 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2020 : 17:21:21
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| You mean that instead of Kezef, you would involve with Cyric and Mask a (presumably more feline) "new" creature, born from a deifically charged curse Kelemvor had? Or changing the origins of Kezef? |
Edited by - Baltas on 09 Jul 2020 17:21:44 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2020 : 17:42:03
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| To be fair, Kezef has a reason to not be involved - he was imprisoned for a very long time, and his role parallels that of several others found in reall life mythologies (Apep, Typhon, Fenrir, Simargl etc), with Kezef even being specifically based on Fenrir (if also a bit mixed with Gramr). Him not having worshipers, might be explained as him being a Primordial, or even his specific method of feeding - he feeds on petitioners, best Faithful, it being implied he feeds on their faith, among things. |
Edited by - Baltas on 09 Jul 2020 17:44:52 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2020 : 18:33:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Must have missed that link before, i'll check it out now. Cheers
Just getting to the bits about Cyric's new sword.
Its a bit of a shame that the sword was only introduced in this book as it clearly twists the wielder to evil and might have better accounted for Cyric's suddenly personality change. No matter
What does bother me is that this sword was later revealed to be mask in hiding, and yet the sword itself appears to have very little to do with mask. It requires blood to survive (and perhaps souls), makes the wielder warm, stronger, and murderous and heals their wounds. Nothing their i would associate with mask. In the scene where Cyric attempts to battle the sword's personality for control the sword assumes the form of a female hag like creature, again nothing to do with mask.
The sword also seems to have been around for a while. Sneakabout possessed the sword long enough for his fellow halflings to become aware of his sudden murderous tendencies and become afraid of him. He took the blade from someone else (presumably a passing merchant) and the merchant went insane and died trying to retrieve it. Sneakabout has thus far gone without the sword for a few weeks and is not insane yet.
I'm thinking thw sword should actually be a long standing item. It could do with some real world history beyond "some god made it as his avatar" (is mask male???)
Changing this changes a lot of lore regarding the realms. If you want the weapon to have been his avatar for longer than the ToT, then perhaps Mask was playing the role before being he (like all the other gods) were cast down. Perhaps the weapon was already there, but it didn't have Mask IN it yet (kind of like the crown of horns and Myrkul existing separately prior to the ToT ending), and he only possessed the weapon after being cast down by Ao. Perhaps he had a heads up that things were coming. He may have even have had an inkling that he needed to get put into the hands of a being known as Cyric.
Also, when it comes to sneakabout and what he believes.... who says he was in his right mind? Who says he even knows the truth? His memories could be modified. Any number of things can be done with magic. In short, I'm saying there's a lot of options that can easily make this true, and one should consider how easily they might be applied before casting the baby out with the bathwater. Granted, I know you don't like the godly interactions so much, but this one is very much at the core of the history from the ToT and across editions. If one is even remotely worried about preserving canon, then the easy fixes would be used to explain away any minor wording that makes you think this weapon just can't be mask. After all, you're probably thinking of Mask as only a god of shadows and thievery.... but at this time he was a "god of intrigues".... which opens him to any number of plot twists. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2020 : 10:51:01
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Canon means little to me anymore, unless it is good canon.
Really looking forward to Eric Boyd's sourcebook on the High Forest, that will replace anything canon.
As for the Cyric and Mask stuff. I try and view it all from the point of view of the common man. Cyric was part of a group of heroes that went chasing these tablets and stop all the chaos engulfing the realms where the gods supposedly walked the ground and were dying like flies.
Cyric has a magic sword and some say it was the god mask in disguise, others say it drinks the souls of those it slays and so must be the god bhaal in disguise, others think its some horrible relic of ancient netheril or some other horrible empire. Imagine people in a tavern saying "Well i heard from cousin Bob over in Wheloon that xxxxx".
Then we get all the nonsense with Cyric and the tavern tales go like. "I hear all them cyricists have gone bananas, fighting each other, killing everyone that doesnt worship Cyric."
"Well i got told by Jim from Phlan, that the gods all had a big trial and Cyric was found to be totally insane, so they locked him up".
"Nah, i heard from a guy that knows Elminster, that there was this big dog with maggots for skin that was chasing Mask, and Cyric wrote a book that made everyone believe he was the only god and then read it himself."
It all sounds every daft, and i doubt anyone would believe any of it. more importantly how would anyone ever know about it if it all happened on an outer plane somewhere.
It all boils down to events that happened on Faerun and what those events get expanded upon with rumour and tavern talk until the truth becomes a series of points that everyone can agree on.
Magic went nuts. Some guys claiming they were gods started fighting and dying. Kelemvor, Midnight, Cyric, and Adon supposedly stopped it at Waterdeep. Cyric had a magic sword. Cyric became a god and supposedly Midnight is the new Mystra. Everything else is available for me to tinker with.
Portfolio's being lost, chaos hounds pursuing gods across the planes, gods getting their hand swallowed, gods reading from a book that makes them mad. Thats all offscreen nonsense that no one would ever know about or could ever verify. So i dont feel bad at all about messing with it a bit.
I'm more than happy to have the sword be associated with the church of Mask. It draining souls and being used to slay Kelemvor is fine. The chaos hound pursuing mask across the planes isnt realms based enough for me, so Kelemvor's own twisted curse animal chasing his soul trying to release it is at least realms based. That chase and the hellish creature could easily get twisted into the story of the Chaos Hound chasing Mask in a tavern by priests (who appear to have these theological discussions regularly when meeting rival faiths, at least according to the ToT novels).
I do hope i'm not read these novels for too long. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2020 : 14:45:43
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Understood, and I kind of figured that would be that answer. That being said, and the reason I wouldn't go down that rabbit hole (even though I'm very willing to do some alternative things), is as you change that plot hole, its unraveling changes so many others that basically you're rewriting the setting. If you don't mind, I'd like to open a little side discussion on "why do we make changes?". Its as much to help me as to maybe focus on where we'd like to see the world go "post second sundering". Granted, if your interests are to simply say "the spellplague didn't happen", and assume that the timeline is pre-1385, then you may not be interested in such a discussion. But my hope is that in having such a discussion (with any sage that wants to put in their own two cents), we might see and define a good path forward for the world itself.
At some point, you have to question the level of effort versus "does making this minor change really affect things that much". That being said, I won't say I'm not doing similar with my proposals for post second sundering, wherein I'm taking 2 suppositions and I know a lot of folks have problems with them. First supposition, the missing gods were in Abeir, and its because Ao sent them there against their will to protect the mortals that were also sent there (AND to spread the worship of gods on Abeir to strength Ao's own toehold on the world). Second supposition, the divine domain of dweomerheart shifted its links to Abeir, and thus "the weave" hooked to Abeir for the last century, and except for certain areas where the magic of the dawn titans "overwhelmed" it, the weave became usable there (and is still usable there, such that the folks that transferred back who are wizards still possess their power even though they are now in Abeir). This can and should have world affecting differences with both those suppositions for the common folk without necessarily having to play out what all exactly happened (though I do have fun thinking about such stories). These world affecting differences would be mortals having magic with which to fight the draconic and primordial overlords of said world, as well as bringing healing magics (which apparently are a rarity) to a world that would be as flabbergasted by them as our own would be. Other resulting affecting differences would be a sense of "hope" being brought to the mortals of Abeir (even as the mortals of Toril were freaking out by the effects of the spellplague), who lived in an overly oppressive society. This causes widespread changes that affects the mood of the entire other world.
I guess what I'm getting at, I can understand wanting to make changes, but the question becomes, why make the change unless there's a good reason for it other than just not liking something. Also I hope you get that I'm not trying to be critical nor disregard your want to make the change. I just think sometimes it helps both sides to look at an idea and discuss it (I know a lot of my own ideas have been improved by such).
BTW, since it seems like you're going through the avatar trilogy, one idea that's come to my mind as time has passed (and I've seen other people propose similar theories). I half wonder if many of those "heroes" weren't actually in "prepared" bodies of some sort and the whole "plot" wasn't divinely guided/preordained to a degree by Ao. By that, I mean that Midnight, Cyric, and Kelemvor all eventually go on to become gods, so perhaps their mortal bodies were some kind of special form. By that I mean they could have been some artificial creation like Alias formed from magic, or perhaps they were "born" creations like all the children of Bhaal (and Iyachtu Xvim of Bane, etc...). I kind of wouldn't be surprised for instance if we were to find out that Myrkul was "of the blood of Nergal or Osiris" as an "incarnation" from one of those pantheons (since there's some canon lore that links him to possibly a prince of Murghom) and that we might discover that Kelemvor can trace his own bloodline back to the old empires centuries or millenia back, possibly to Osiris. Cyric himself might be a creation of Leira's or Mask. Midnight might be a creation of Mystra or Leira (only mentioning the last because her truename of Ariel). Their entire memories (since we don't see them interacting with folk from their childhood, etc...) might even be fake.
So, going back to what I was saying before, I'm talking about making a change, but why am I even considering it? Well, in this instance, it builds on the theory that Ao has been guiding things since before the ToT to setup the ToT, the years between, the spellplague, and the second sundering. There is an overarching plot, and its geared towards the gods invading Abeir and Ao gaining more power as a result. But for those people looking at things from the viewpoint of the ant, they don't see these moving parts, and everything becomes a swirl of gods doing things that seem to be "spontaneous".
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 10 Jul 2020 15:19:24 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2020 : 19:55:56
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Waterdeep (1358 DR)
Cormyr
Ogden the Hardrider, command of a Purple Dragon patrol from Marsember protecting coastal farms around Hermit’s Wood. 12 strong; 6 trainees, 2 drunks, 2 soldiers, 2 murderers (criminals doing pennance???). Ira and Phineas members of the patrol. Slain by black gas escaping the ground, souls remain trapped in their bodies.
Mystra, Kelemvor, and Adon passing through Cormyr on their way to Waterdeep, pursued by Cyric who is trying to steal the Tablet of Fate from them.
Waterdeep
90 priests of Myrkul in Waterdeep
Khelben Blackstaff attempted to use magic to contact Piergeron Paladinson telepathically and ended up broadcasting the entire conversation to the whole city.
Other Lore
River Arkhen full of boiling blood
Sword Coast, mackerel are sinking fishing boats.
Ruined castle known as the Haunted Halls five miles north of Eveningstar. Castle located at the bottom of a deep gorge overlooking the Starwater River. Built before Cormyr became a kingdom. Walls 30 ft high, castle 100 yards long, portcullises fallen into disrepair. Black towers. The great hall still standing, made from black granite like the towers
Talos the Raging One
Duke Luthvar Garig, petty Sembian noble whose delusions of grandeur resulted in the destruction of an entire army (in the last 5-10 years)
Darkhold’s forces decimated in the battles of Shadowdale and Tantras, Yellow Snake Pass is all but abandoned because of this.
Yellow Snake Pass, named for a fearsome yellow dragon that had inhabited it several hundred years ago
“Until swords part” - friends saying “we’ll meet again”
Tablet of Fate is in Bone Castle in the Realm of the Dead
Dragonspear Castle contains a “bridge” to the Bone Castle in the Realm of the Dead
“May our blades fail before they cross again” archaic mercenary greeting
“But only after we’ve broken our backs with bounty” archaic mercenary response to above
Kelemvor once helped Lord Galroy “recover” several herds of “stolen” horse from honest ranchers at Kulta (Sembia)
Fountain of Nepenthe, one of a thousand places filled with the Black Waters of Forgetfulness where the souls of the dead go to travel to the Realm of the Dead.
Elminster originally developed the Worldwalk spell
Roosting Gryphon Inn between Dragonspear Castle and Daggerford, destroyed by undead. A fat man called Farl runs the inn.
Former worshippers of Tyr (souls on the Fugue Plane) - Here is Mishkul the Mighty, who brought King Lagost to justice; and here is Ornik the Wise, who judged between the cities of Yhaunn and
Tulbegh; and here is Qurat of Proskur,
Talos was in Tsurlagol
Sune in Teziir
In Cormyr an army of sycamore trees was besieging Suzail
Tantras’ north quarter suffered a permanent dead magic zone
Boareskyr Bridge, along the Winding Water as far south as Troll Claw Ford (100 miles away), waters run black and foul and no living thing can drink the water.
Sune rides a golden chariot
Torm rides a red stallion
Loviatar’s chariot pulled by 9 bloody horses
Auril travels in a coach of ice
Umberlee has seaweed green hair and the face of a manatee
Cyric and the Company of the Scorpion
Cyric and his Zhentilar stayed in the Haunted Halls of Eveningstar
Cyric recently acquired a rose coloured magic short sword from a halfling village north of Hilp. Increases blood lust, keeps the wielder very warm, heals the wielder, makes them stronger in battle. Personality Is female and evil (a vampiric hag like creature), needs to kill to survive, drains all the blood of its victim (drains souls???).
Dalzhel, Zhentilar soldier, nearly 6 ft tall, bear like build and disposition. Heavy black beard, a long tail of braided hair, brown eyes. Cyric’s lieutenant
Fane, night sergeant
Alrik, soldier
Edan, soldier
Lang, lanky soldier, skilled with blade and bow
Mardug, soldier
Shepard, soldier
Cormyr
Cyric and his Zhentilar raided a halfling village north of Hilp
Kelemvor accused of murdering a local merchant in Wheloon
Sumac tree
All enchanters must register with the local herald.
Black Oaks
Halfling village, village centre ringed by 80 ft tall black oak trees.
Berengaria, matron elder of halfling village
woomera, a stick with a groove in the end used to throw spears.
Atherton Cooper, an older halfling male known as Sneakabout, finest scout outside of Eveningstar. Owned the magic sword that Cyric stole (and the pony). He stole it off a previous man who died trying to recover it. The sword forces the bearer to indiscriminately murder those who hold it (dominating them) and its absence once lost drives them insane.
Covered by an orange mist that drained all moisture out of the land.
Evening Star
Unfortified, about 50 buildings of significant size. Crossroads settlement.
Stables, inns, provision markets on the outskirts
craftsmen making wine, wool, farm tools, and parchment toward the centre of town.
Streets clean and peaceful.
Closes at nightfall
The Lonesome Tankard. Expansive dining room occupies most of the ground floor. Clean, wooden floors. Guard stationed at desk to watch for unregistered adventuring companies.
Kelemvor
For 5 generations Kelemvor’s family had been forced to sell their fighting skills (mercenaries???)
High Horn
Lord Commander Kae Deverell, robust man with red hair and deep jolly voice. Harper friend or agent. Drunkard, bored with High Horn.
Stands upon the summit of a cragged peak, curved walls overlook thousand ft cliffs. Only 3 paths lead to the castle, each one heavily guarded and fortified ending in a drawbridge and triple doored gatehouse.
Captain Pell Beresford, in charge of the night watch. Sent a complaint about Commander Deverell to Suzail.
Treen, serving maid
Jalur, purple dragon
Kiel, purple dragon
Makare, purple dragon
Orrel, purple dragon
Fitch, purple dragon sergeant
Ceiling and floors in High Horn have removable support beams to allow them to collapse to trap and slow attackers.
Bhaal attacked High Horn. Midnight imprisoned him in amber. Bhaal escaped and possessed Deverell
Massive, green insectlike (maybe spider) eye appeared in the sky over High Horn in place of the sun and lasted for days
Radnor, purple dragon ranger, deep blue eyes
Captain Lunt, leads heavy patrols into Plains of Tun
Duke Bhereu travels to High Horn to investigate allegations of poor morale and drunkeness.
Tun Plain
No mans land between High Horn and Darkhold
High Horn send regular heavy patrols to keep control
Darkhold sends puppet lords, bandits, and roving agents into the Plains of Tun
Yellow Snake Pass
Wide deep canyon snaking through the Sunset Mountains. Bushy conifers and white poplars cover the valley floor, broken by red bluffs of stone. Red cliffs rise up like stairs toward the mountain peaks which are stained deep red. Mountain streams spray off the cliffs into mist.
Curtain of shadowy blackness covered the pass. Anything that entered the veil did not return (pushing a stick into it caused the end of the stick to vanish forever).
Sneakabout slain by Cyric
River Reaching
Javia of Chauntea, a druid
Boareskyr Bridge
Cyric stabbed Bhaal with his sword. Bhaal exploded. Midnight teleported them away.
Dragonspear Castle
River runs beneath the castle, leads to Kanaglym (dwarven city)
Kanaglym contains the Fountain of Nepenthe
Kanaglym was not inhabited for long, the well used to provide water ran dry within a few years. Eventually they tunneled deep enough to tap Waters of Forgetfulness. Renamed the well to the Fountain of Nepenthe and then abandoned Kanaglym.
Waters of Forgetfulness seem to connect to the Realm of the Dead and Myrkul’s domain.
Shalto Haslett, a gnome that owns a farm near Dragonspear Castle, has a well connected to the river under Dragonspear Castle (Adon was blocking it)
Waterdeep
Ylarel, city watch member at the city gates.
The Pool of Loss, another place filled with Waters of Forgetfulness and an access point to the Realm of the Dead. Located in Undermountain.
Gower, a dwarf with a bright red nose, acts as a guide in Undermountain
Myrkul sacrificed all his worshippers / faithful in Waterdeep during the ToT
Mordoc Tursilley, Captain of the Company of the White Wyvern of the City Guard
Piergeron Paladinson, Open Lord of Waterdeep, Warden of the Guard, Commander of the Watch, Overmaster of the Guilds
Lightning ball scorched the streets outside Blackstaff Tower
Zombies attack Dockward and demon creatures attack Northward
Boulder launched from the top of Blackstaff Tower into the streets
Two square blocks of Waterdeep east of Blackstaff Tower disintegrated by Myrkul’s brown murk (left behind when he died), people slain, plants withered, everything decayed.
3rd Watch Regiment destroyed
Guard Company of the Chimera, Company of the Manticore
5th Watch Regiment
Celestial Stairway located next to the griffon stables |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2020 : 16:54:24
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I had used soul trapping in a modification of the 1st edition Queen of the Demonweb Pits published adventure for use with 2E rules. Since gods had been made MUCH more powerful with the 2E rules, there was no way some random group was going to be able to kill Lolth on her own plane. So, the adventure was modified to have the adventurers interfere with her plan on achieving greater godhood. This is what I have in my notes about this:
Plan details are:
1. Connect home plane to several prime material planets.
2. Invade/subvert planet to use locals to collect slaves/captives.
3. Have drow priests/mages create energy collection magic items that will capture a being’s life force and store it in a prepared being (666 of them).
4. Create a relic that will release the stored life force into a special portal to the Demonweb. This portal will need to be opened and maintained by 66 drow priestesses in a location that is a large source of faerzress (this will magnify the life force energy).
5. Bring the storage beings to Eldarath. Put them in an adamantine cage that is suspended over the pool/portal. Drop the storage beings into the pool so that the relic can blast the stored life force out of them and into the Demonweb.
6. The energy will shoot through the Demonweb into Lloth and fuel her transformation into a greater power.
Lolth has to merge herself with her plane so that takes her out of having direct interaction with the PCs. The portal will be created with a 30 foot radius, round pool of some black fluid with the Infusion relic sticking out of the center. This pool is at the top of an outcropping of the special mineral that radiates faerzress in large quantities. The weakness of the portal spell is that if any daylight were to enter it, the location of the portal would change to Arvandor. The weakness of the Infusion relic is that it is repelled by Arvandor due to the protections surrounding it.
So, to foil the plan, the pool must be infused with a bit of daylight after the cage has been dropped but before it impacts the pool. This will shoot the relic into the air and knock out the priestesses. If a PC is on top of the arm holding the cage, he can jump out and grab the relic as it flies up and then blink to the escape chain so everyone can teleport out of the area before the poop hits the fan. The escape chain teleports the group to the surface were sunlight destroys both the relic and the chain. Corellon himself shows up and rewards the group.
Items needed: a vial of daylight and the adamantine escape chain (just like the ones that teleport the group from one G module to the next). The chain is located at the residence of a very powerful drow mage who helped make the life force collection items. He also has the details about the adamantine cage being used.
Edit: fixed typo |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Edited by - TheIriaeban on 11 Jul 2020 17:20:27 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2020 : 17:54:44
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
I had used soul trapping in a modification of the 1st edition Queen of the Demonweb Pits published adventure for use with 2E rules. Since gods had been made MUCH more powerful with the 2E rules, there was no way some random group was going to be able to kill Lolth on her own plane. So, the adventure was modified to have the adventurers interfere with her plan on achieving greater godhood. This is what I have in my notes about this:
Plan details are:
1. Connect home plane to several prime material planets.
2. Invade/subvert planet to use locals to collect slaves/captives.
3. Have drow priests/mages create energy collection magic items that will capture a being’s life force and store it in a prepared being (666 of them).
4. Create a relic that will release the stored life force into a special portal to the Demonweb. This portal will need to be opened and maintained by 66 drow priestesses in a location that is a large source of faerzress (this will magnify the life force energy).
5. Bring the storage beings to Eldarath. Put them in an adamantine cage that is suspended over the pool/portal. Drop the storage beings into the pool so that the relic can blast the stored life force out of them and into the Demonweb.
6. The energy will shoot through the Demonweb into Lloth and fuel her transformation into a greater power.
Lolth has to merge herself with her plane so that takes her out of having direct interaction with the PCs. The portal will be created with a 30 foot radius, round pool of some black fluid with the Infusion relic sticking out of the center. This pool is at the top of an outcropping of the special mineral that radiates faerzress in large quantities. The weakness of the portal spell is that if any daylight were to enter it, the location of the portal would change to Arvandor. The weakness of the Infusion relic is that it is repelled by Arvandor due to the protections surrounding it.
So, to foil the plan, the pool must be infused with a bit of daylight after the cage has been dropped but before it impacts the pool. This will shoot the relic into the air and knock out the priestesses. If a PC is on top of the arm holding the cage, he can jump out and grab the relic as it flies up and then blink to the escape chain so everyone can teleport out of the area before the poop hits the fan. The escape chain teleports the group to the surface were sunlight destroys both the relic and the chain. Corellon himself shows up and rewards the group.
Items needed: a vial of daylight and the adamantine escape chain (just like the ones that teleport the group from one G module to the next). The chain is located at the residence of a very powerful drow mage who helped make the life force collection items. He also has the details about the adamantine cage being used.
Edit: fixed typo
I like this.  |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2020 : 19:58:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Quite unexpectedly, the avatar trilogy of novels has legitimized the entire premise of magic of incarnum in FR.
Myrkul uses soul energy to power all the magics he uses during the ToT, and to boost Bane twice. The magics appeared to be more stable as well, suggesting soul magic is akin to raw magic and not weave based.
Ed has also said recently on twitter that those gods who suffer from lack of worship become vestiges, which is also an incarnum thing.
Might be worth a closer evaluation of that sourcebook as it appears to have a solid grounding in realmslore from a very early stage.
I think I shall look to place the "soul wells" (the places where the souls gather like the fountain in kanaglym) in at least every region in faerun. If there are thousands of then there could be one in every city. I guess any place where a lot of death has occurred could weaken the planar boundaries enough to allow souls through (maybe it's a two way thing as well)
A two-way thing? Sounds like you need to call Ghostbusters. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2020 : 20:06:06
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As Ed actually conformed a few years ago Tyr was part of the Jhaamdath pantheon, and I would think the Celestial Tyr merged with the Iltyr, the Blind But All-Seeing Eye you mentioned in your Reimagining Jhaamdath thread, or possibly one of the other Tyr's (like Achanatyr,"the Sword of Justice," or "Arrtyr Judge Of All," ) who was possibly worshiped in the territory of the Moonsea or Vaasa since time immemorial, possibly originally being part of pantheon the proto-humans who lived north of the great forests of Cormanthyr (and were responsible for building the Citadel of the Raven).
Even one of their pantheon, "Irmider" (who would merge with Silvanus), has a Germannic like name too (similar to Irmin of the Irminsul), possibly making Achanatyr or Arrtyr at least fit a bit well. |
Edited by - Baltas on 13 Jul 2020 20:29:53 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Novel Lore
