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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Apr 2020 : 12:52:52
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One of the strangest details of the Spellplague that never saw any elaboration is the tidbit that the illusions that clock the settlements on Toril's moon were destroyed, revealing them to view. While portal magic went incredibly haywire and there's not too many spelljammers flying around post-2e, I'm curious; what would you do with this reveal and these folk?
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4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2020 : 13:25:17
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That blurb is one of the few things in Realmspace that has been backed up in Realmslore -- though at the time the info was written in Realmspace, it was entirely unsupported by anything at all.
The short version is that there's a bunch of paranoid Leirans living on the moon. I don't believe it said why there were there or how they got there, just that they were there and that for reasons they were worried about Toril invading them.
Personally, I think the lore is -- like much Spelljammer material that touches existing settings -- very problematic. It's one of those things that can be explained away with many contortions, but -- like most things requiring a lot of contortions -- it's really not worth the effort. It's easiest to ignore the references to anyone on the moon and say that what was seen from Toril was a temporary illusion sparked by wild magic. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 15 Apr 2020 13:28:20 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2020 : 13:53:00
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| I also want to say that the referenced tidbit about the illusions being revealed said it was just a temporary thing... I can't recall the name of that web article to look it up, though. |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1253 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2020 : 17:16:50
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| This is some lore I have no clue about. The Leiran illusion went down and Torillians could see their cities on Selune? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2020 : 19:25:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
This is some lore I have no clue about. The Leiran illusion went down and Torillians could see their cities on Selune?
As I recall, it was just a brief thing. It was in one of the web articles that came out right before they inflicted the 4E Realms on us. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2020 : 19:53:29
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| Okay, my bad, it wasn't a temporary thing -- though I'm pretty sure it's never been followed up on, after that. |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
578 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2020 : 21:45:07
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I'd say they're paranoid of an invasion from Toril because of now-legendary experiences with Netherese spelljammers. The "monsters from the world above" could have become a standard boogeyman tale for them over the millennia. We know they were pretty awful to other races and civilizations they found in space, and those on the moon are just about the closest they could find.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2503 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2020 : 21:51:38
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| IIRC, in one if the "Blades of the Moonsea" novels, the characters go to one of the cities of the moon. I guess is time to re-read those novels... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 16 Apr 2020 00:43:33 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12074 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2020 : 01:38:45
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What I did with this was the idea that the Moon in the night sky around Abeir and the Moon in the night sky around Toril are different satellites. Just like the continents and oceans were duplicated, so too was the moon. When the spellplague happened, the moon of Toril went to Abeir. This affected numerous godly entities who had bound up portions of their power into the Moon of Toril. Some of them were forced to Abeir. Selune was NOT forced to Abeir, because she's actually tied to BOTH moons, since she is the goddess of the moon of her own name. So, when the illusion went away, it was because Leira went to Abeir, and soon after the moon of Toril followed.
Along the way, I also had written up that basically the transferred spellcasters of Toril started getting dreams, and in these dreams they were interacting with other cultures in a cooperative magical ritual that they all innately understood, but only while they were asleep. When they woke, they compared dreams and realized that everyone had been sharing the same dream but from different viewpoints. They couldn't recall what it was exactly about, but they new it revolved around the moon. It was this collective dream.... a form of sleeping illusion... a form of unconscious deception... that kicks off a spark of magic within Abeir and transfers the moon to Abeir (and anchors the displaced DweomerHeart to Abeir for the next century). A few days later, they start having dreams of another cooperative casting, but this time it was a dream of performing a cooperative casting involving the sun. In this instance, each was specific to their own culture, unlike with the moon which crossed cultural boundaries. When they awoke and saw the dawn, each different group saw their god in the sky doing what he was rumored to do in their mythology (and at times with a god that they had thought dead). For instance, the Mulhorandi saw Ra pulling the sun across the sky with a barge. The Untherics saw Utu. The Metahel saw Faerthandir riding a golden furred foxibou. The Mazticans saw Tezca and the Naticans saw Intiri. The Faerunians saw Lathander. What was interesting was that two people believing in a different pantheon looking at the sky standing right beside each other would see different things, and the people of Abeir saw nothing. As a blessing, all those spellcasters who had been involved in this bit of dream magic on Abeir, were blessed by the sun and moon gods with fertility for the next twenty years.
I also wouldn't have the moon be populated with humans and elves. I'd have the moon populated with "shadow fey"/"shadow elves"/ellefolk/Arak (those all being the various name for the same grouping of fey from the Ravenloft product the Shadow Rift). These particular ones have no ties to Ravenloft or the Arak storyline other than starting at the same place (prisoners on the plane of shadow). They were rescued from the plane of shadow and led to Toril, their escape covered by deceptions, by servants of Leira. The illusion on the moon was placed to protect them from the evil Gwydion who would be hunting for the escapees (and she brought them to the moon because Selune has a hatred of shadows). The illusion also protects them from the light of the sun kind of like the atmosphere filtering radiation. The ellefolk pretend to be normal humans and elves for visitors, to keep their civilization hidden. They've been affected by some strange magic that also affects the elves of Toril... when members of their subraces of "Arak"/"ellefolk" normally have children they can be ANY subrace when born of their kind (I think they have about 8). However, these in realmspace "breed true"... in that I the parents are a Fir and a Sith, then the child will be a Trueblood Fir OR Sith. Also, the sub races are not forced to follow an alignment based on their subrace (though they DO tend to follow cultural biases... for instances, Fir are interested in technology AND good at it. Sith are interested in death, etc...).
That being said, it sounds like I need to look at the "blades of the Moonsea" novels. But then again, I've already veered away from canon heavily.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 16 Apr 2020 01:57:15 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2020 : 03:24:29
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
I'd say they're paranoid of an invasion from Toril because of now-legendary experiences with Netherese spelljammers. The "monsters from the world above" could have become a standard boogeyman tale for them over the millennia. We know they were pretty awful to other races and civilizations they found in space, and those on the moon are just about the closest they could find.
Jeff
I dunno, after 1600 years of no further invasions, you'd think they'd relax a bit.
...Also, you'd think if they were that worried about it, they'd go elsewhere. |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
578 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2020 : 04:24:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I dunno, after 1600 years of no further invasions, you'd think they'd relax a bit.
...Also, you'd think if they were that worried about it, they'd go elsewhere.
Myths and legends can have a powerful hold over people. This doesn't have to be a straightjacket for all the residents; maybe it is just part of their religious dogma. Maybe it's like real-world Doomsday cults, that always predict them on certain days, and when they don't come to pass, they "realize there was a calculation error" and then suppress that it was ever wrong. There's a lot of ways to make this work.
As for moving... That world is their home, and there are a lot of them. Where would they move to?
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2020 : 04:40:12
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| (As a brief aside; I tracked down the Realmspace bit on Selune and yeeeesh has it not aged well. The two example characters are the queen, whose defining trait is "hates men," and a local worker who gets an entire paragraph dedicated to how much he hates his wife. Whoever ran that section was really working through something...) |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2020 : 04:53:41
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quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I dunno, after 1600 years of no further invasions, you'd think they'd relax a bit.
...Also, you'd think if they were that worried about it, they'd go elsewhere.
Myths and legends can have a powerful hold over people. This doesn't have to be a straightjacket for all the residents; maybe it is just part of their religious dogma. Maybe it's like real-world Doomsday cults, that always predict them on certain days, and when they don't come to pass, they "realize there was a calculation error" and then suppress that it was ever wrong. There's a lot of ways to make this work.
As for moving... That world is their home, and there are a lot of them. Where would they move to?
Jeff
Where would they move to? Anywhere they didn't have to worry about their next door neighbor invading them. They've had at least 1600 years to come up with some solution other than "sit here and be terrified" |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12074 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2020 : 15:52:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
I'd say they're paranoid of an invasion from Toril because of now-legendary experiences with Netherese spelljammers. The "monsters from the world above" could have become a standard boogeyman tale for them over the millennia. We know they were pretty awful to other races and civilizations they found in space, and those on the moon are just about the closest they could find.
Jeff
I dunno, after 1600 years of no further invasions, you'd think they'd relax a bit.
...Also, you'd think if they were that worried about it, they'd go elsewhere.
This is also why I kind of like my idea that "they're faking who they are" and that they are in fact the Ellefolk/"shadow elves"/"shadow fey". Basically they're always on edge that someone will find out WHO they are in truth and that the let's call him "shadow primordial" Gwydion will find them again. So, they keep up the lie. In my view, this is way better than "an airport on the moon". They present this "front" to keep people from investigating their other areas. They tell people they don't want miners, but in truth, a lot of them live beneath the moon's surface and are fine with it. These tunnels traverse paths from the lit side of the moon to the dark side where the Leiran Trading center exists, but the exits on the dark side are hidden. They just don't want people to know about them and the best way is to cordone off certain areas from trespassers. BTW, I picture Nimbral having some of these same fey inland, and Nimbral's policy of not letting spelljamming folk to travel their island is a lot like this place's policy (and both have ties to Leira). This dark side of the moon is meant for outsiders, and they put on a show for visitors to discourage them trying to "peel back the mask".
As a dark twist, these Ellefolk, when they can get away with it, are not against stealing someone's shadow and turning them into a "changeling" (this isn't the Eberron changeling, its kind of like a "clone" of someone which is totally dedicated to some facets of its capabilities... for instance, a master mason who whiles away his time constantly working, a master painter who makes portraits constantly, etc... ). This is something that is specific to these creatures from the Shadow Rift work, and the mortal body that is left behind tends to go catatonic and people don't know why. The ellefolk consider doing this a great service to the being and see nothing wrong with it... they consider it IMPROVING them and allowing them to achieve their full potential.However the families of those who are left dealing with drooling idiots would most definitely disagree, so they have to be careful about it lest people start noting "don't go to the moon, they do something to you". The original sources don't say that changelings age either, so I opt for the idea that they don't, and that the ellefolk view this as making someone immortal.
Under the illusion on the lit side of the world, if someone were to traverse into those areas, they'd find fantastic cities and I picture lush gardens. Realmspace gives two great seas on this side, and numerous molten/volcanic activities, which can produce lush and fertile crop areas. Of the "sub-races" of "shadow fey"/ellefolk I picture them generally separating themselves a bit like this:
Alven - tiny fairy like beings with red hair (EDIT, my typos are bad), greenish skin and butterfly wings. They have skill with plants and able to assume the forms of butterflies and bumblebees. However, they are also EASILY confused with a pixie, and many will often pose as the familiar of another ellefolk in order to interact with visitors, and some are always posted at the Leiran trading center in this role with Shee wizards, sorcerers, fey warlocks, or the occasional arcane trickster with the ability to cast find familiar. They inhabit the lit surface almost universally and tend to vast gardens. When they must travel to the dark side/Leiran Trading Center, they are usually in bee or butterfly form. While they do not do so often, they have been known to make changelings of "less advanced" individuals from the working class when they get a chance in order to have field workers to do things which a being of their size would have problems with. As a result, there are changelings of many lizardfolk of Coliar who were gathered centuries ago that serve them devotedly, as well as some druids and farmers who have been taken over time.
Brag - short, beardless, stout folk. Industrious workers as carpenters, stoneworkers, lumberjacks, smiths, etc... and able to shapechange into ponies for half the day. These beings I picture as working WITH the Alven on the illusion covered side of the world. In pony form they may pull plows, help pull carts to transport goods, while in their humanoid form they may do things that require hands. They also like to be "foremen" and many of them help by directing changelings of skilled craftsmen.
Fir - short, slender, long silver-haired, with freakishly long, thin fingers. They can change form into hedgehogs These are the technological designers of the Ellefolk. Where the Brag may build the components for the end design for them, its the Fir that develop the idea. They are fascinated with alchemy, magic item creation, and construct building. They are fascinated with clockwork creations that also don't involve magic. Their society may have lots of clockwork gadgets that duplicate things that other cultures would use magic to achieve, and they may spend lots of their time repairing these things. They are NOT like tinker gnomes, in that what they build WORKS. They would stick mostly to the sub-surface areas of Selune, occasionally going to the surface on the lit side under the illusion to work on things. While they may occasionally take changelings, I don't picture them having numerous numbers, as they don't want to have to direct them or oversee them.
Muryan - elven/half-elven looking individuals with curly hair. Known for dancing, athletics, etc.. and also known to take offense easily. These serve as "security" in the Leiran Trading Center, posing as elves. The can shapechange into ferrets up to 3 hours a day, and may use this form to follow individuals and spy on them (the Leiran Trading Center having high ledges and small tunnels which they can use for such clandestine work without attracting attention to themselves... these pathways allow the Muryan to quickly get from one place to another much faster than traditional methods would allow as well). They also serve as "entertainers" in many theaters on the dark side of the moon, putting on shows of dancing to distract visitors and entertain their fellow ellefolk.... and thus kept away from the visitors except as objects to watch.
Portune - tiny fairy-like beings with black skin, white hair, and moth wings. They are able to take on the form of "snakes" and "turtles" indefinitely, and there is a "reptile exhibit" in the Leiran Trading Center where a few dozen of these beings take shifts to be available should the people on that side require their aid. The Portune however spend the majority of their time on the lit side of the world under the illusion. They get along with the Alven, as they are herbalists and healers, and they spend much of their time collecting herbal components. They also get along with the Fir who often use some of these components in their alchemical work.
Powrie - The Powrie are tiny, with wasplike wings, feral teeth, snake-like eyes, and wiry beards. They can change into stinging insects like wasps for up to 3 hours per day, and a group of them on mission may use this form to quietly encroach on a target. They are given to violence, and the strange magic which has forced the ellefolk to "breed true" in realmspace has had an effect on their population. Since they are so prone to violence, most Powrie have died off without reproducing new Powrie. What few Powrie exist have been taken to form an elite infiltration and assassination group used to deal with threats to the colony. Many of them are trained as arcane tricksters. They may do this by flying aboard a spelljammer as it leaves and then killing all aboard and then bringing the newly acquired vessel to hide it under the illusion side as a means of flying transport. When the Teg fly to Karpri to hunt, it is not unusual for the Powrie to go with them for the purposes of "letting off steam" by killing things like large flying insects (which even a medium or large insect is exceptionally huge compared to them).
Shee - very elven looking, with a strong appreciation for the arts, luxury, etc... They are able to take bird form for up to eight hours per day. These are the most commonly encountered individuals found in the Leiran Trading Center. They are the reason that the inhabitants of Leira are viewed as decadent and focused on pleasure, etc... They also are some of the most easy going individuals to be found anywhere. Much like the reptile exhibit that holds Portune for visitors to see, the Leiran Trading Center also holds a HUGE aviary possessing birds of all types. At least half these birds are in fact the Shee relaxing in another form and watching visitors in an environment that said individuals may get lax within. Many individuals have noted how many of these birds show unusual intelligence and ability to speak, which they are told that the birds "were awakened by a passing druid", but in truth these are often Shee spies.
Sith - pale elves with dark hair and a penchant for necromancy and working with cadavers, spirits, etc... They can take on the form of shadows, and in such forms some of them are always in the Leiran Trading Center watching visitors and listening. They are usually found underground or directing skeletons of animals such as oxen on the lit side of the world. While macabre and introspective, they are not without their purpose, and in particular they watch evil cultures that land at the Leiran Trading Center. They are NOT killers. They have been known to work "face stealing" necromancy effects to infiltrate and subvert such groups from within in order to aid their fellow inhabitants of the moon.
Teg - small and slender, with long ears and wide "foxlike" facial features (not furred mind you), catlike teeth, and long clawed fingers. They can change into foxes up to six hours per day. They are feral and obsessed with hunting, even hunting intelligent life. Much like the Powrie, the violent nature of these beings and the fact that realmspace has made the ellefolk "breed true" has led to a noted downturn in the population of Teg upon the moon over time. What few there are are kept to the lit side of the world and away from the Leiran Trading Center unless their skills are specifically called for. Under the illusion, there are numerous game areas on the moon, and what few teg exist are tasked to provide meat and to control the population of predators upon the moon both on the surface and the underground tunnels. However, if a visitor infiltrates their underground colony, it is not unheard of for a Teg tracker to be called in to help find and neutralize the threat. Some Teg are also sent offworld on captured spelljamming vessels, in particular to the world of Karpri, where they are allowed to hunt giant arachnid, insect, and/or sea life. In particular hunting parties of Teg have been known to hunt the giant spiders for their silk and gargantuan praying mantises for both their meat and exoskeleton (said exoskeleton being useful as a building material). They generally stay away from the telepathic dolphins (who return the favor, not liking the violent nature of the teg).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 16 Apr 2020 17:13:08 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2020 : 16:48:24
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That's not a bad spin... Not the way I'd go, but certainly better than what we got.
My idea is that the Leirans actually came from some unknown place -- they don't even know where they came from, in relation to where they are now. And because of that, they're not sure if it's Toril they fled from or not.
I've also considered them having two illusions, not one. There's an illusion of cities and such, to make them seem more powerful. And there's an illusion over that, showing the moon as it really is, but concealing the second illusion. The idea is that from a distance, it looks like there's nothing to see and no reason to go there. If you ignore this, though, you're going to see what looks like a powerful enough group that you're not going to want to mess with them. (Or maybe the cities and such are the only illusion, and under normal circumstances, you have to be within a certain range to see it)
Still problematic, but just about anything is better than what we were given. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12074 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2020 : 17:27:04
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The idea of an illusion within an illusion is interesting. What I'd go for might be something of "instead of two illusions, have one illusion and one physical manipulation to misinform". Not sure HOW to do that, but perhaps many of the most major settlements are more distractions, while the main settlements are hidden by the fact that they're under the surface with some opening that's hidden from view if you're physically looking from orbit, etc... Meanwhile some of the grand cities that you see from far away are inhabited by things like changelings of soldiers taken by the Muryan, psychotic huntsmen taken by the Teg, and assassins/murderers taken by the Powrie. Bear in mind that many of these "changelings" might come from vastly different cultures and to someone who lands there they suddenly find themselves in some city with mind flayers, lizard folk, orcs, drow, beholders, aarakocra, goblins, etc...
The more "blood lusting" of the ellefolk may in fact specifically not kill enemies and instead turn them into changelings in order to use them in some form of arena type combat meant to help them exist in society and control their urges. It could be interesting for instance if a spelljammer full of Powrie were to land in the shaar and convert a smallish tribe of gnolls into changelings, then herd the semi-catatonic bodies that remain onto the ship. The changelings maybe then are used in some arena sports, and the bodies are processed for their meat. The skeletons might then be handed over to the Sith for necromantic work. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12074 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2020 : 17:59:20
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Oh, and on the idea that the Leiran Trading Center caters to folk, entertaining them, feeding them, etc... bear these notes in mind on changeling creation. It makes it a lot more sinister.
Shadow elves (read Ellefolk for this purpose) cannot create a changeling unless the participant gives his or her consent through willing eating faerie food. It is worth noting that almost all Arak believe that they are doing these folk a favor by transforming them and cannot understand why anyone would pass up the chance to leave their dull, brief mortal lives behind to come and live with the shadow elves. They look upon the process as a means of making a master craftsman even more skillful. While this is certainly true, the cost generally outweighs the benefits.
To create a changeling, an Arak (read Ellefolk for this purpose) must sever the subject's shadow from his or her body. This process requires the subject's consent, which is typically given through eating faerie food. (Tepestani refer to this morsel as "faerie cake"). The mortal need not understand the consequences of this act for it to take effect.
Shortly after someone takes a bite of faerie cake, he or she becomes drowsy and falls asleep. While in this magical slumber, the shadow elf (read Ellefolk for this purpose) illuminates the area with a magical black candle and sprinkles the body with ebony-colored dust. As the dust drifts down over the sleeping victim, the Arak (read Ellefolk for this purpose) slices off his or her shadow with a silver sickle and packs it into a small sack.
Before the candle burns down completely (which takes roughly five hours), the freshly harvested shadow must be taken into the Shadow Rift (read this to be some interior portion of Selune which as a portal to the plane of shadow through which these people escaped long ago). If the candle is extinguished, either intentionally or through the passing of time, the stolen shadow returns immediately to its owner. While the candle burns, the victim cannot be awakened; only snuffing the flame restores consciousness |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6396 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2020 : 19:07:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
If the lore provided is so bad, and it takes this much effort to try and make it usable, would it not be better to just disregard it.
I'm speaking from a logic point of view rather than a rabid 5e hater. If you have something that requires x amount of hours for you to make yourself and then you are given something that is done badly and will take 2x amount of time for you to make it work. Do you make your own or remake the badly done version.
Honestly, I'm inclined to agree. I've said more than once that Realmspace is a great supplement, so long as you ignore the entries for Toril and Selūne.
That said, I will sometimes try to make a better explanation for things, even if I don't like them -- I've come up with a couple of different spins on the Spellplague, for example, and I utterly detest the Spellplague as one of the worst things ever inflicted on a shared setting (second only to the Word of Blake Jihad in BattleTech). |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12074 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2020 : 19:34:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
If the lore provided is so bad, and it takes this much effort to try and make it usable, would it not be better to just disregard it.
I'm speaking from a logic point of view rather than a rabid 5e hater. If you have something that requires x amount of hours for you to make yourself and then you are given something that is done badly and will take 2x amount of time for you to make it work. Do you make your own or remake the badly done version.
What you define as work, I define as "sitting here pondering something in the background and then going.... wow... actually if you do X then it actually makes something I like AND keeps the original canon to a fairly good degree". In essence, yes, I could create something whole cloth. I don't know that it would be better. Sometimes change for change's sake doesn't work out (look at 4e). Focusing on what you find unliked and then looking for a way to make it better can often make for a better solution.
For instance, I know you are not big on things involving religion with actual gods, and you instead want to promote concepts of mortals growing very powerful. While I can find that useful, if its overdone it can be not good. For instance, if you told me that Assuran is an ascended blue, amethyst, or sapphire dragon (or some other dragon with breath of lightning or sound or force), I could definitely buy it. But when you tell me that the entire Jhaamdath pantheon was all humans that ascended during that empire, I find it harder to believe. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6396 Posts |
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2020 : 08:57:18
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| Ok, I missed something here. I thought the Leirans were on Nimbral, since they fled there from Halruua. Then the Spellplague sank Nimbral,,, or did it?? Maybe Nimbral was just cloaked in illusion. Was it ever decided that Nimbral is still there? And why are there Leirans on the moon? Short version please. |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2020 : 09:20:47
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quote:
Originally posted by ElfBane
Ok, I missed something here. I thought the Leirans were on Nimbral, since they fled there from Halruua. Then the Spellplague sank Nimbral,,, or did it?? Maybe Nimbral was just cloaked in illusion. Was it ever decided that Nimbral is still there? And why are there Leirans on the moon? Short version please.
There are Leirans on the moon, independent of any other population. Near as we know, they've always worshiped her, as her illusion has cloaked the moon for a long, long time.
Nimbral was, I believe, sent to Abeir during the Spellplague. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12074 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2020 : 13:27:01
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quote:
Originally posted by ElfBane
Ok, I missed something here. I thought the Leirans were on Nimbral, since they fled there from Halruua. Then the Spellplague sank Nimbral,,, or did it?? Maybe Nimbral was just cloaked in illusion. Was it ever decided that Nimbral is still there? And why are there Leirans on the moon? Short version please.
See what Keftiu said, but Nimbral isn't specifically detailed as to where it went during that time. It MAY have been Abeir, but then again, being an island with strong ties to the fey, I would not be surprised if somehow there were portals to Evermeet or something and it got pulled into the Feywild. The reference to it returning was in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide.
On the "why are their Leirans in Nimbral and the moon"
Non-canon answer: There's two really good ways that this could happen, and its my inclination to use BOTH. However they can be used separately and on their own. Forgive that I'm not brief, as I find building the story makes it more believable.
First Version: Netheril had spelljammers. Halruaa came from Netheril. Nimbraii left Halruaa. Nimbraii used recovered spelljammers helms attached to Halruaan skyships to go to the moon along with the "fey" on the island of Nimbral. NOTE: if you use this answer separately, then the "fey" on the island of Nimbral should be another colony of elves and that's where the "canon" elves on Selune came from.
Second Version: Leira's worshippers long ago led a bunch of "prisoners"/"slaves" of a primordial of the Shadowfell named Gwydion. These beings were a strange race which was fey but trapped in the Shadowfell for so long that it had begun to change them. Also this strange race was a part of 9 distinct and entirely different fey subraces (some were tiny fairies, some resembled elves, some were more like twisted parodies of gnomes and dwarves). These beings called themselves "Shadow Fey" or "Ellefolk". In order to protect them, Leira placed an illusion over the moon, and these beings became some of her most fervent worshippers.
BTW, for 5e, you can find a conversion of this race (in ravenloft called the Arak) in this dms guild product by Leonaru. I still recommend getting the original product for lore reasons as Leonaru didn't copy all the text that went with them.
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/195699/Ravenloft-Bestiary--Monsters-of-the-Dread-Domain?term=ravenloft+bestiary
Mixing these two versions: Netheril had spelljammers. Netheril went to the moon. They were openly welcomed, or at least that was the face put on by the Ellefolk. These Netherese tried to vivisect the ellefolk to discover their method of procreation (after all, a tiny alven and a medium shee can produce a child). In a fit of steely rage, the Ellefolk hid their anger and put on their lying faces to take their revenge. They fed the Netherese faerie cake, watched them drift off to slumber, sliced away their shadows, and turned the Netherese "invaders" into immortal changelings who would act as their servants. They seized the Netherese spelljammers and Mythallar (for both were aboard their spelljamming vessel). It is rumored that one survivor did escape, and that in the next few centuries he would go on to become the archmage known as "Shadow".
The ellefolk view all incoming Netherese as a threat, and begin acting as predators on Netherese spelljamming vessels (oftentimes under the illusion of being mindflayers and using a captured Nautiloid from Glyth
though real mindflayers had ALSO taken up the act of attacking Netherese vessels as well). Even after the Netherese stop coming into wildspace, the Ellefolk continue to watch their society from orbit. In particular, they watch the actions of Shade Enclave, fearing he is in contact with Gwydion (their ancestral master). Taking a captured mythallar, they attach it to a mountain from the moon and fly it and its structures/dwellings to the surface world to better spy on the Netherese (these become the Moondark Mountains from Volo's Guide to the North... to note if one wants to remain MORE canon, one can also state that these ellefolk took up residence in the ruins of the OLDER population that inhabited the Moondark mountains, and employ some of the lore in the forging the realms article: the Moondark Mystery
copy of which can be found here https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B4xxJUcFFKFXS1VESjl6cFUwMUk
. for instance, perhaps the ellefolk and the Moondark elves had had some interaction before the Netherese took to the skies and perhaps the 14 fleeing Moondark elves had taken up residence with the ellefolk on the moon... such that perhaps the shadow fey aren't the ONLY fey on the moon, but there are actual moon elves there too... literally).
and thus create a layered mystery and somewhat explain why the Moondark are such a mystery).
When Karsus' Folly occurs, the ellefolk/shadow fey FEEL the damage to the world that happens. As the ramshackle remnants of the Netherese
head south to populate Halruaa, the ellefolk follow them at a distance, taking up residence on an island which will become known as Nimbral. They are discovered by a small sect of Halruaans, whose guilt over the actions of their society in nearly destroying the world leads them to understand the plight of the ellefolk. They agree to carry out the lie. Eventually, they know they can no longer keep their actions hidden from their fellow Halruaans, and thus the exodus of Leirans occurs to Nimbral, leaving in the night with not only a vast fleet of skyships, but also the self-cloaking enclave known as Doubloon. This is how Nimbral becomes a "spelljamming nation".
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 17 Apr 2020 14:10:39 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12074 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2020 : 14:24:06
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Oh, btw, that 5e ravenloft bestiary produces a 10th subrace of Arak/Ellefolk/"shadow fey"/"shadow elf". Its called the gwytune, and I think it fits their theme. They are humanoid but shorter than a human, golden eyed, long fingered, with ram's horns. Like all these ellefolk, they are obsesses with something, and what they are obsessed with is arcane magic. Unlike their fellows they have no alternate form unless produce via magic (and they have "alter self"). From a fun standpoint, it might be very interesting (to me at least) if a lot of the "humans" working on the moon are in fact alter-self'd Gwytune.
Also, in the above, since we mentioned the Moondark Mountains and the idea that some elves from there migrated to the moon and that later the shadowfey spied on Netheril from the left behind dwellings IN the Moondark Mountains... one could also have them coming into contact with the descendants of Talaerlo Moondark
also known as "Mad Moondark"... who decided that the best method of improving the elven race was to mate with dragons.
I can't claim entire "ownership" of this idea below, as it was Wooly that first proposed it in this
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17946
But, if one wanted to include the Rockseer Elves from Night Below into the realms, having the dragon that Talaerlo Moondark mated with be a sapphire dragon.... and then having said offspring be the rockseer elves of the Night Below (who had some abilities to stoneshape, stone tell, meld with stone, etc...)
then having said rockseer elves moving INTO the earth to go with their Sapphire dragon parent. One could also see these Rockseer elves later using the left behind skyships to actually go into the sky and populate the INNER side of a Tear of Selune
or multiple of such... and noone knowing of them. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 17 Apr 2020 15:05:30 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12074 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2020 : 15:15:08
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BTW, I know how convoluted some of the above looks, but one thing to bear in mind is that we're talking about stuff happening over millenia. For instance, the Leirans rescuing the Ellefolk could have been around the time the first fey came to Toril. The Moondark elves during the crown wars along with the arrival of these 14 Moondark elves to the moon. The initial Netherese contact during the Netheres age of discovery. The spying on the Netherese (in particular Shade Enclave) during the Age of Shadow, and possibly subsequent rise of the Rockseer elves to the night sky then (and possibly some sapphire dragons going with them). The migration to Nimbral after Karsus' folly. Their discovery by Halruaans just around the time of the Leiran Exodus. When looked at as spread out over the timeline of more than a dozen millenia, its not all that much happening.
Hmmm, and as I think on the idea of the Moondark's more... if the Selune inhabitants sent the DESCENDANTS of the 14 Moondark elves back to spy on Netheril (because they do appear as normal moon elves), it would make sense that they might return to their ancestral homelands (which may have protections that they can bypass due to bloodline), and then meet their own "cousins" which are the rockseer elves also still living in the area. This can also add a little more mystery to the Moondarks, because we then have them gone for millenia
back for a few hundred years... and then leaving again, but this time taking their dragon-descended kin and possibly some dragons into the sky. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 17 Apr 2020 15:23:34 |
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2020 : 15:27:15
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Thank you folks for the Lore. The above sounds good to me. I'll remain a "Nimbral-is-still-here, just cloaked" person. I have a bit invested in that little corner of the FR, and I don't want to lose it. If it ever becomes canon that Nimbral is feywild or in Abeir, then I'll just setup regular Portal or Spelljammer travel.
BTW, where IS Abeir?? Different plane, different planet? What? And most importantly... do we have maps? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12074 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2020 : 18:13:31
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quote:
Originally posted by ElfBane
Thank you folks for the Lore. The above sounds good to me. I'll remain a "Nimbral-is-still-here, just cloaked" person. I have a bit invested in that little corner of the FR, and I don't want to lose it. If it ever becomes canon that Nimbral is feywild or in Abeir, then I'll just setup regular Portal or Spelljammer travel.
BTW, where IS Abeir?? Different plane, different planet? What? And most importantly... do we have maps?
Nimbral is HERE at least NOW. The question is WAS it here during the spellplague and cloaked, or in Abeir, or in the Feywild. Just what was it doing over the last 100 years is unclear. Whether this would impact your modern game would be questionable based on what you're doing exactly.
On where is Abeir and is there a map. Very nebulous... Its in the same crystal sphere, occupying the same physical space as Toril, but not in "phase" with it. It sees the "same" sun and moon. No geographic maps. In theory it should be similar to Toril, pre-elven sundering... or possibly POST, since the elven sundering is said to have also reached forward AND into the past... It hasn't had a lot of the meteoric crashes that Toril has (again, an assumption).
From the 4e FR Player's Guide
At the center of the universe lie the twin worlds of Abeir and Toril, slightly out of phase with each other. Both revolve around the same sun and both have a large lunar satellite, Selūne, trailed by a line of moonlets known as the Tears of Selūne.
Toril is the body that folk refer to as the world. In the aftermath of the Spellplague, it includes pockets of Returned Abeir that have replaced pockets of the old Toril. The planets primary and central continent is Faerūn. To the north of Faerūn is the arctic north, home to the polar icecap. To the west of Faerun is the Trackless Sea, and beyond that horizon lies Returned Abeir, which completely replaced a land known as Maztica. To the south of Faerūn is the Great Sea. To the east of Faerūn are the Hordelands. Other continents exist as well, but the folk of Faerūn and Returned Abeir know little about those far-off lands |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 17 Apr 2020 21:11:27 |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2020 : 21:37:30
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| Wow, I hadn't realized they had put a hit on Maztica and had their boys dump the body in the ocean (after tying an anchor to it, of course). |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2020 : 21:51:16
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Wow, I hadn't realized they had put a hit on Maztica and had their boys dump the body in the ocean (after tying an anchor to it, of course).
Most of the thin copy of a real-world culture locations got sent to another world in 4e - Maztica, Unther, Mulhorand - and I personally wasnt sad to see them go. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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ElfBane
Learned Scribe
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2020 : 23:17:29
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by ElfBane
Thank you folks for the Lore. The above sounds good to me. I'll remain a "Nimbral-is-still-here, just cloaked" person. I have a bit invested in that little corner of the FR, and I don't want to lose it. If it ever becomes canon that Nimbral is feywild or in Abeir, then I'll just setup regular Portal or Spelljammer travel.
BTW, where IS Abeir?? Different plane, different planet? What? And most importantly... do we have maps?
Nimbral is HERE at least NOW. The question is WAS it here during the spellplague and cloaked, or in Abeir, or in the Feywild. Just what was it doing over the last 100 years is unclear. Whether this would impact your modern game would be questionable based on what you're doing exactly.
On where is Abeir and is there a map. Very nebulous... Its in the same crystal sphere, occupying the same physical space as Toril, but not in "phase" with it. It sees the "same" sun and moon. No geographic maps. In theory it should be similar to Toril, pre-elven sundering... or possibly POST, since the elven sundering is said to have also reached forward AND into the past... It hasn't had a lot of the meteoric crashes that Toril has (again, an assumption).
From the 4e FR Player's Guide
At the center of the universe lie the twin worlds of Abeir and Toril, slightly out of phase with each other. Both revolve around the same sun and both have a large lunar satellite, Selūne, trailed by a line of moonlets known as the Tears of Selūne.
Toril is the body that folk refer to as the world. In the aftermath of the Spellplague, it includes pockets of Returned Abeir that have replaced pockets of the old Toril. The planets primary and central continent is Faerūn. To the north of Faerūn is the arctic north, home to the polar icecap. To the west of Faerun is the Trackless Sea, and beyond that horizon lies Returned Abeir, which completely replaced a land known as Maztica. To the south of Faerūn is the Great Sea. To the east of Faerūn are the Hordelands. Other continents exist as well, but the folk of Faerūn and Returned Abeir know little about those far-off lands
So its kind of like a parallel world that we can catch "glimpses" of at times, but there is no travel between them? |
Edited by - ElfBane on 17 Apr 2020 23:20:34 |
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Cities on the moon!
