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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Apr 2004 : 05:25:32
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What rules or areas of the D&D game are the most confusing to you, and why?
And if one area is really confusing, you might be able to get help from other scribes who have figured those areas out.
For me, I need to take another look at the HD vs. ECL issue with regards to table 3-2 in the PHB, especially in the wake of what 3.5 did to such. I also get a headache putting together prices for new magic items sometimes.
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Wood Elf Ranger
Senior Scribe
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2004 : 05:50:25
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I completely agree about the ECL vs HD thing. I still can't figure out if a weretiger would be +3 ECL or if you have to add the animal HD which would make it +6 ECL *scratches head* I'm all confused  I haven't even tried pricing on new magical items yet but I bet that would be even more confusing. This is a great idea though perhaps someone can explain these things in terms that anyone can understand  |
~Lee N.
"Breaktime yes?!.. Yes?.. Maybe?.. Noo, baaack to work.." -Grovel the Goblin from NWN: HotU |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2004 : 06:32:05
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| Your Weretiger, as I understand it, is in a sense ECL +6, with three hit dice. I could be wrong, though. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Wood Elf Ranger
Senior Scribe
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2004 : 06:39:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Your Weretiger, as I understand it, is in a sense ECL +6, with three hit dice. I could be wrong, though.
That is what I figured I just got confused by the Monster Manual giving all werecreatures ECL +3. In Races of Faerun it says ECL +2 for natural lycanthropes plus animal HD which would be an ECL +6 for a weretiger which is what I was thinking but wasn't sure. Anyways it helps that you think the same thing!  |
~Lee N.
"Breaktime yes?!.. Yes?.. Maybe?.. Noo, baaack to work.." -Grovel the Goblin from NWN: HotU |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2004 : 07:28:20
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The important thing here is, of course, if Sage agrees.  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2004 : 09:05:30
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Ok, here's how it works:
Some creatures have level adjustments because they have some nifty powers that make them more powerful than plain ol' humans with the same number of hit dice. When one adds the level adjustment to the creature's base hit dice one comes up with the creature's effecitve character level. This figure is supposed to mean that the creature is as powerful as a human of this level.
In the case of the were-tiger, they have a +3 level adjustment and base hit dice of 7 (6 from were-tiger and 1 from their character class). This means they are ECL 10 creatures and a base were-tiger is comparable to a level 10 human fighter for example.
Note, I'm using the 3.5 Monster Manual for were-tiger stats.
Sarta |
Edited by - Sarta on 25 Apr 2004 09:07:02 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2004 : 09:19:39
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| Not having that book, I'll take your word for it. Wood Elf, I guess you'll have to ask Sage's specific permission to play an ECL 10 character. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2004 : 13:14:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarta
In the case of the were-tiger, they have a +3 level adjustment and base hit dice of 7 (6 from were-tiger and 1 from their character class). This means they are ECL 10 creatures and a base were-tiger is comparable to a level 10 human fighter for example.
This is off. Either way a weretiger can have a 9 ECL; you don't need class hit dice for a character. However, an afflicted lycanthrope does need at least one class level-to represent the character pre-affliction.
As such, the ECLs go like this:
Natural-6 tiger HD+3 LA=9 ECL
Afflicted-6 tiger HD+1 class level(1 HD)+2 LA=9 ECL |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2004 : 13:26:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
[Natural-6 tiger HD+3 LA=9 ECL
Afflicted-6 tiger HD+1 class level(1 HD)+2 LA=9 ECL
How does the level adjustment drop from 3 to 2 by virtue of a class level? You are correct about the natural were-tiger, however since most individuals afflicted with lycanthropy have a level of something, if only peasant, this increases the hd of the lycanthrope and therefore the ECL.
EDIT: Referring to page 308 of the 3.5 Monster Manual under the definition of effective level it specifies that one adds the hit dice (including those from class levels) to the level adjustment to get the ECL of a creature.
Sarta |
Edited by - Sarta on 25 Apr 2004 13:34:00 |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2004 : 13:36:55
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| Check the LA under Lycanthropes as Characters on page 179. An afflicted lycanthrope has a different LA than a natural lycanthrope, you know. |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2004 : 14:29:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Not having that book, I'll take your word for it. Wood Elf, I guess you'll have to ask Sage's specific permission to play an ECL 10 character.
An ECL 10 PC . . . . I'm not sure what the Sage will say, but I'm going to have to do some work myself on this, it doesn't sound quite right.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2004 : 20:38:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Check the LA under Lycanthropes as Characters on page 179. An afflicted lycanthrope has a different LA than a natural lycanthrope, you know.
Ahh, yup, you are quite right. Hadn't read all the fine print. An afflcted level 1 ranger were-tiger would have an ecl of 9.
Good eye!
Sarta |
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RogueAssassin
Learned Scribe
USA
207 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2004 : 20:54:41
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Thats crap...seems a little much to me..
-The Rogue
What Would a 1 lvl human fighter with the Halfdragon template be then? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a Theres the Half Dragon template. |
"Spirit. Its a Heros strength, a mothers resiliance, and the poor mans armor. It cannot be broken and it cannot be taken away. This i must belive"---Drizzt Do'Urden |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2004 : 20:57:58
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| ECL 4-1 HD+3 LA for the half-dragon template. |
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Wood Elf Ranger
Senior Scribe
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2004 : 23:46:00
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| My weretiger will be a natural Lycanthrope but wow ECL +9 without any class levels is pretty major! But still if thats about where Sage starts his campaign off around that level I'll go for it! |
~Lee N.
"Breaktime yes?!.. Yes?.. Maybe?.. Noo, baaack to work.." -Grovel the Goblin from NWN: HotU |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 00:26:28
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On the positive side, it will make character creation easy. He'll have the skills and feats of a 6hd creature.
Sarta |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 03:29:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wood Elf Ranger
My weretiger will be a natural Lycanthrope but wow ECL +9 without any class levels is pretty major! But still if thats about where Sage starts his campaign off around that level I'll go for it!
He doesn't, normally. Besides, if you look into the PbEM with Sage thread in the Adventuring section, you'll see some details about the ECL limitations in this campaign.
Also, in an effort to keep both Alaundo, and Arivia happy, could we please keep the Sage's campaign discussion inside the thread that I just mentioned. Arivia's nice new thread is being inundated with side-chatter that's not really that relevant with the thread topic.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 06:12:59
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Not that that doesn't always happen.
But I second the motion. Move over, people. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 08:44:04
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When it comes to 3.5 the two rulesy items we had the most trouble with at first were the grapple rules and the whole attack of opportunity thing. After a lot of reading, I've finally become comfortable with them. This is a good thing since the game I run has a grappler and a rogue who relies heavily on combat reflexes and a two-handed spear.
Sarta |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 08:47:35
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| Grapple I can understand, but what was it about AoOs that you couldn't figure out? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 09:46:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Grapple I can understand, but what was it about AoOs that you couldn't figure out?
It wasn't so much that the rules are cloudy, as it is that one has to remember a whole ton of different things that set off attacks of opportunity. When you have a combatant that threatens everything 10 feet away from him and has 5 attacks of opportunity available per turn you have to remember all the minor stuff that sets off AoO's:
Casting a spell
Drinking a potion
Getting something from a pack
Firing a bow (technically throwing a rock)
Non-improved unarmed combat
Using a spell-like ability
I finally just copied down everything that does set off attacks of opportunity and kept it at hand until it was ingrained in me and my players.
Sarta |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 09:51:02
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| Aha. That makes sense. Especially if it's a tabletop game; all of my rules-memorization is geared more towards where to look it up, since I have to stick to PbeMs. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 09:54:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarta
On the positive side, it will make character creation easy. He'll have the skills and feats of a 6hd creature.
I just noticed this, or I would have said something earlier. Feats and maximum skill ranks are dependant on overall character level. So if he's got 6 HD and an ECL of +3, then it would mean he would have at least four feats and a maximum of 12 ranks in any one skill. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 10:39:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
I just noticed this, or I would have said something earlier. Feats and maximum skill ranks are dependant on overall character level. So if he's got 6 HD and an ECL of +3, then it would mean he would have at least four feats and a maximum of 12 ranks in any one skill.
Actually, no. Creatures do not gain skill points nor feats for their level adjustment -- just for their hit dice. In the case of a lycanthrope they would gain 2+int bonus skills per lycanthrope hit die (with class skills listed per lycanthrope) and a feat for every three hit dice.
Sarta |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 10:49:12
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| That's not what's in the Powerful Races sidebar in The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. It states that to determine max skill ranks and feat aquisition, you add the adjustment to the total class level. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 12:55:24
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quote:
I need to take another look at the HD vs. ECL issue with regards to table 3-2 in the PHB
Same issue, Bookwyrm. Anyway, that sidebar's been overriden; look at page 7 of Races of Faerun. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 20:05:49
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Really? Hmm. I'll have to take a look at that. That messes me up a bit on another project.  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2004 : 02:30:56
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Yeah, the switch from 3.0 to 3.5 was actually pretty darn confusing. On the surface it seems like so little has been changed. As you begin digging in though you realize there were hundreds of changes, but none of them were huge, just minor tweaks. Unfortunately, these minor tweaks are very easy to overlook until later if you were fairly familiar with the 3.0 rules. The change to skills based on hd vs ECL is one of them.
For another example, we have a player that had an illusionist with conjuration and evocation as his restricted spell categories. Now at first we just noticed the way specialist wizards had their bonus to DC removed which wasn't that big a deal. It wasn't until much later that we noticed that every single translocation spell such as dimension door and teleport had been changed from the Transmutation school to the Conjuration school. Meaning that this illusionist could no longer cast these spells. He retired his character.
I've really been enjoying reading Sean K. Reynold's critique of the 3.5 players handbook. He has been going through the book chapter by chapter and commenting on nearly every change and provided house rules for stuff he still doesn't agree with. Some of them are quite good.
Here's the first three chapters:
http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/opinions/opinions3p5chap123.html
Sarta |
Edited by - Sarta on 27 Apr 2004 02:32:02 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2004 : 02:50:50
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Thank you for that. This ought to be interesting.
Hmm, it seems that Mr. Reynolds is also a bit anti-WotC. And he's fully justified, I think, considering what he opens up with. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2004 : 08:25:45
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Yes, thank you for the link Sarta. I knew Mr. Reynolds had some poor feelings for WotC, that much can be gleaned from his website. But here, he's almost completely anti-WotC (like the Bookwyrm said), especially with some of his remarks in the opening portion.
Still, I find myself agreeing with his criticism of the 3.5e system as a whole.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2004 : 08:56:42
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It's always hard to see someone else attempt to "improve" upon your work. I think SKR quite rightly feels that in some way 3.0 was his baby (one he shared with others, but still partly his).
The man's also a genius at gauging play-balance when it comes to looking at things like feats, prestige classes, and class abilities. I think he's concerned that this sort of quality control has slipped recently.
Finally, he's a very passionate person. Read some of the other stuff on his board -- especially his rules rants: http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/index.html
Writing crunch in many ways is far more difficult than fluff. Fluff either exists somewhere already or it doesn't. Find the source and the problem is solved. If there is no source, make it up, or ask Ed or Steven to do so. Crunch on the other hand is far more subjective -- and causes tempers to flare far quicker as a result.
Overall, I really enjoy reading his take on things. His writing about these various topics that get him upset with the game remind me a lot of the conversations / arguments we used to have about the rules of the various games we played. We used to frequently stop playing at 2 AM, "discuss" rules in the parking lot until 7 am, then go get breakfast, and finally go our own ways.
I see it not as a dislike of WotC, but a love of the game and the courage to say what he feels.
Sarta |
Edited by - Sarta on 27 Apr 2004 08:57:56 |
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Most confusing areas of the D&D game...
